UKC

I got my hand on a set of the new friends earlier this week after taking a really close look I decided to send them back unused.

The problem for me was that when I pulled the trigger back as hard as possible the cam lobes only retracted about 90% of their total possible movement range (so the tips of the lobes only just passed each other). Comparing a friends purple DMM Dragon to the same size Friend the Dragon would contract about 3mm more which given 14mm range that cam is meant to cover is considerable.

For me one of the big advantages of double axle cams is how much harder it is to get them stuck, but I can easily see how in a tight placement the new friends could walk into a tighter position where although there is movement left in the cam you can't get it out with the trigger. Has anyone else noticed this as an issue?

In reply to bpw666:

Interesting, didn't think you could get a refund on cams.

In reply to humptydumpty:

I think if they are still tagged and clearly unused they are treated the same as other things in that respect. You can return ropes that are still factory coiled and bagged afaik.

Checked before sending them back. Still tagged ,in the packaging and unused = no problem.
Outside are nice!

In reply to bpw666:

Hey bpw666 - interesting to hear this. Can you describe how the problem occurred fully - I designed the trigger pull on them and would be interested to know more - thanks. I don't have production models to hand but on my pre-production samples I don't have any such problem? All the cable pulls were designed consistently so it would be helpful to identify where you thought the problem lies - whether it was the trigger grounding out on the stem or whther it simply didn't reach full retraction.

Cheers,

Mike

In reply to beardy mike:

Also v. interested in this as I've just bought a set and wouldn't be impressed if they get stuck easily...

That said, I've placed every new friend several times already including some dubiously tight placements where the optimal friend had been placed further down the route... they've all come out fine so far.

In reply to bpw666:


this isn't just on these cams; I have the same thing with an old DMM 4CU (3.0).
the trigger pulls the lobes to about 97-98% of the cams range - but if you squeeze the lobes there is still a wee bit more travel to go.
knowing this has made the difference between getting the thing back and saving a lot of fight to free it.
luckily it's only the bigger size cam, it's usually reachable by hand and/or nutkey.
I haven't thoroughly checked all my other cams - the smaller ones (inc DMM / BD) seem fine.....


b.d.w - In my view this is just a cam retrieval problem; I wouldn't see this as one having a better "range" than the other......

Hi Mike, the trigger wasn't grounding out just at maximum pull the lobes weren't being pulled right round. On the DMM cam I was comparing it with when you pull the trigger on that the lobes swing right round so the flat edges are parallel with the walls of the crack. I did notice on that the solid wire connectors that terminate onto the lobe appeared to be slightly bent, don't now if that is a design feature or just from use (it's mate's that ended up on my rack last weekend).

In reply to bpw666:

There is a slight difference in the lobe design in that the flat edge is designed to give clearance to the other lobes when retracted. They are not meant to be parallel to the wall but at a slight angle. Did you notice whether the inner slot contacted the axle when retracted? The stiff wires are normally bent on double axle cams - to obtain full rotation you need to reach around the axle if that makes sense and to avoid the cable being constantly flexed and causing a fray, the best way to do this is to make a slight bend. Which way did the flat edge flare?

In reply to beardy mike:

Inner slot did not contact the axle when the trigger was fully pulled. You had to squeeze the lobes by hand to get that to happen.

Stiff wires on the friends where completely straight, no bends.

This photo is the Dragon I was comparing with. First photo pic is fully retreated, second is about where I could get the Friend by pulling as hard as possible on the trigger wire.
http://i1161.photobucket.com/albums/q511/bpw666/Cam.png
Tips of opposite lobes just passed each other but still quite a lot of rotation before the axles would hit the back of the slot. I stuck my digital calipers on it and measured 3mm additional contraction if I pushed the lobes the rest of the way around by hand. This issue seemed to be consistent across the 5 sizes I had. Should have taken a pic before I sent them back.

Ben

In reply to bpw666:

Will have to try to talk to James about this and get to the bottom of it - I've already flagged this thread to him.

In reply to daWalt:

FWIW tonight I've compared my new WC friends with my old BD C4 cams and both behave in exactly the same way. There's a small amount of movement still possible when the trigger is fully pulled. The WC ones don't seem any different to the BD camalots.

If you shove a cam into a crack that's too small then this extra movement of the lobes means it *could* potentially walk and get stuck. However as both brands seem to suffer equally from this I'm happy to accept it and just try not to place them in cracks that are too small. At least knowing there's a bit of extra movement means you have a fighting chance of extracting a stuck cam.

In reply to Fiona Reid:

pretty sure it happens with all my cams too. it allows those with determination and think fingers to add to their rack over time.

thx beardy Mike for responding. is this an intentional design or an inevitable consequence?

In reply to bpw666:

How cool is it that you can chat with the designer about your gear? Good old UKC

In reply to bpw666:
Ok I tested my DMM Dragon cams this morning and all the ones I tested of various sizes do 100% fully retract. I think this makes them less likely to getting stuck in cracks not more as at least one other poster inferred. Infact I was climbing with my mates mostly WC cams (not the new model) only a week ago and repeatedly they kept getting a bit stuck in cracks (OK sure I was probably over camming them a bit, but hey when you don't have the right size left that's what you do right), and I remember thinking the reason this is happening is because the trigger wires don't fully retract the lobes properly.

Also I can clearly remember some of my camalots fully retracting - although perhaps not consistently through the size range (the small blue and medium green for example)

In reply to beardy mike:

So I've umm just spoken to the nice people at Outside who've just received the cams I sent back and they recon the issue I was seeing was cause by the cam still being mounted in the set packaging.... They could see cams in the pack couldn't go all the way back but the singles units could. Once they snipped one off the pack, the problem disappeared.

In reply to bpw666:

oopsie

In reply to bpw666:

Haha - I had a feeling it might be that... we were joking we should send you this which in view of the issue resolution I'll now post: http://www.isokineticsinc.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/GripmasterBlack500.jpg