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Hi all
I've recently taken my climbing from indoors to outdoors. Still top roping while I adjust to massive difference in feel. I absolutely love climbing outdoors.
I did a course for setting up top rope anchors and have done a few climbs of about 15-20 metres. I want to move to the bigger climbs, around 30m, but it will still be on a top rope.
Assuming anchors are no problem, is it fine to top rope on such a high crag?
Looking at cheesewring quarry on Bodmin moor, particularly Eyeful tower and juliettes balcony
I've recently taken my climbing from indoors to outdoors. Still top roping while I adjust to massive difference in feel. I absolutely love climbing outdoors.
I did a course for setting up top rope anchors and have done a few climbs of about 15-20 metres. I want to move to the bigger climbs, around 30m, but it will still be on a top rope.
Assuming anchors are no problem, is it fine to top rope on such a high crag?
Looking at cheesewring quarry on Bodmin moor, particularly Eyeful tower and juliettes balcony
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In reply to Einriba:
The only observation I'd make is that with a standard climbing rope the rope stretch will be significant if you fall off in the first few metres, so bear this in mind and may be either use a pad, a spotter or don't fall off.
The only observation I'd make is that with a standard climbing rope the rope stretch will be significant if you fall off in the first few metres, so bear this in mind and may be either use a pad, a spotter or don't fall off.
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In reply to Einriba:
Do you mean you don't have a rope long enough to bottom rope something longer than 25m? You could always toprope using a belayer at the top, old skool style?
I've toproped multipitch slabs by tying two ropes together but you do need a belayer who knows what they are doing.
Do you mean you don't have a rope long enough to bottom rope something longer than 25m? You could always toprope using a belayer at the top, old skool style?
I've toproped multipitch slabs by tying two ropes together but you do need a belayer who knows what they are doing.
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In reply to Einriba:
The answer you're looking for is yes it's safe. The rope length makes no odds except the stretch but if you're falling off at a point where stretch is going to see you touch the floor you're not high enough to do any damage anyway.
The answer you are not looking for but you should listen to is to start leading. Leading is so much more rewarding than toproping.
Join a local climbing club and widen your network. Follow them up some routes, basically toproping but getting used to handling the gear and what good placements look like. Then when you are used to it you can do your first lead on something within your capability.
The social aspect of clubs is great too.
Where are you based?
The answer you're looking for is yes it's safe. The rope length makes no odds except the stretch but if you're falling off at a point where stretch is going to see you touch the floor you're not high enough to do any damage anyway.
The answer you are not looking for but you should listen to is to start leading. Leading is so much more rewarding than toproping.
Join a local climbing club and widen your network. Follow them up some routes, basically toproping but getting used to handling the gear and what good placements look like. Then when you are used to it you can do your first lead on something within your capability.
The social aspect of clubs is great too.
Where are you based?
Post edited at 10:26
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In reply to Einriba:
It's fine to top rope on climbs of that length but you may need your belayer at the top of the climb if you're using a standard length climbing rope.
If you aren't sure how to do that just ask.
It's fine to top rope on climbs of that length but you may need your belayer at the top of the climb if you're using a standard length climbing rope.
If you aren't sure how to do that just ask.
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In reply to radddogg:
Do not agree with the dissing of the stretch problem.
Especially with modern skinny singles, the stretch is designed to be acceptable for leader falls.
60 m of rope up and down a 30 m route and the stretch becomes considerable, especially is the rope is not pre tensioned or pre stretched. Be aware.
> The answer you're looking for is yes it's safe. The rope length makes no odds except the stretch but if you're falling off at a point where stretch is going to see you touch the floor you're not high enough to do any damage anyway.
Do not agree with the dissing of the stretch problem.
Especially with modern skinny singles, the stretch is designed to be acceptable for leader falls.
60 m of rope up and down a 30 m route and the stretch becomes considerable, especially is the rope is not pre tensioned or pre stretched. Be aware.
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In reply to Rick Graham:
Yes but as it stretches you decelerate. It's never going to be as harsh a fall as jumping off a boulder problem. If you're worried ask your belayer to take it tight at the start
Yes but as it stretches you decelerate. It's never going to be as harsh a fall as jumping off a boulder problem. If you're worried ask your belayer to take it tight at the start
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In reply to Rick Graham:
I would just like to agree with this. I was top roping a 25m rope with a 60m single, which was brand new. I fell off the crux which is about 12m up and was quite surprised to nearly deck out on rope stretch. If you've got a new rope or your belayer isn't keeping the rope nice and snug, then you can go a long way even on a top rope.
> 60 m of rope up and down a 30 m route and the stretch becomes considerable, especially is the rope is not pre tensioned or pre stretched. Be aware.
I would just like to agree with this. I was top roping a 25m rope with a 60m single, which was brand new. I fell off the crux which is about 12m up and was quite surprised to nearly deck out on rope stretch. If you've got a new rope or your belayer isn't keeping the rope nice and snug, then you can go a long way even on a top rope.
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In reply to Einriba:
I think it depends on the line. There will be routes where you could take a massive pendulum into something. So make sure you anchor is over all of the route not just some of it
I think it depends on the line. There will be routes where you could take a massive pendulum into something. So make sure you anchor is over all of the route not just some of it
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In reply to Einriba:
An alternative is to use a static rope which doesn't stretch - these are used widely by climbers on southern sandstone where top roping is the only acceptable style of ascent.
An alternative is to use a static rope which doesn't stretch - these are used widely by climbers on southern sandstone where top roping is the only acceptable style of ascent.
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In reply to mattrm:
If those figures are accurate, I really don't think the rope was the problem, it's much more likely to have been the belayer! Unless of course your idea of 'nearly' and mine are wildly different.
> I would just like to agree with this. I was top roping a 25m rope with a 60m single, which was brand new. I fell off the crux which is about 12m up and was quite surprised to nearly deck out on rope stretch. If you've got a new rope or your belayer isn't keeping the rope nice and snug, then you can go a long way even on a top rope.
If those figures are accurate, I really don't think the rope was the problem, it's much more likely to have been the belayer! Unless of course your idea of 'nearly' and mine are wildly different.
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In reply to Fraser:
Looks about right to me. Witnessed a very similar scenario of rope lengths and fall, luckily the belayed climber was fairly lightweight.
You could maybe do some test falls next time you are out
> If those figures are accurate, I really don't think the rope was the problem, it's much more likely to have been the belayer! Unless of course your idea of 'nearly' and mine are wildly different.
Looks about right to me. Witnessed a very similar scenario of rope lengths and fall, luckily the belayed climber was fairly lightweight.
You could maybe do some test falls next time you are out
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In reply to Rick Graham:
Hmm, I'm not convinced, sorry. 12m up and 'almost decking'? To me that would mean the climber's feet coming down to say head-height when standing at ground level. Even with a stretchy new rope I just can't see that happening without loads of slack from the belayer.
If I had a nearly new rope you're right, I could! Unfortunately I don't
Hmm, I'm not convinced, sorry. 12m up and 'almost decking'? To me that would mean the climber's feet coming down to say head-height when standing at ground level. Even with a stretchy new rope I just can't see that happening without loads of slack from the belayer.
If I had a nearly new rope you're right, I could! Unfortunately I don't
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In reply to Einriba:
I've set up top ropes at cheesewring albeit not on the tallest section. It's a nice place.
I would suggest as others have that you consider learning to lead climb. If you are able to climb 25m climbs then you are likely to be of sufficient ability.
As long as you are aware of the risks from rope stretch and your trusted belayer keeps the rope fairly tight at the start I cant see you having a problem. Before starting a climb on a long top rope consider your moves and how likely you are to fall off near the start and if the chance of hitting the floor or other part of the rock on the way down.
I remember the floor being strewn with small rocks so a boulder pad might be useful anyway.
I've set up top ropes at cheesewring albeit not on the tallest section. It's a nice place.
I would suggest as others have that you consider learning to lead climb. If you are able to climb 25m climbs then you are likely to be of sufficient ability.
As long as you are aware of the risks from rope stretch and your trusted belayer keeps the rope fairly tight at the start I cant see you having a problem. Before starting a climb on a long top rope consider your moves and how likely you are to fall off near the start and if the chance of hitting the floor or other part of the rock on the way down.
I remember the floor being strewn with small rocks so a boulder pad might be useful anyway.
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In reply to Fraser:
Until it happened to me I would have agreed with you. I would say that I probably went a couple of meters on slack before the rope started stretching. Was some of that slippage through the belay plate and the taking up of any small amount of slack in the rope before the stretch kicked in? Probably. But there would have been about 40m of rope between myself and the belayer. I my feet were a bit above my belayers head. So around 10 meters of slack/stretching.
It was the first time I'd ever climbed on the rope, it was brand new. That I would imagine had a fair bit to do with it. But it was still surprising. If you want to come to Wales with a new rope, I'll take you to the crag in question, I wouldn't be against further tests.
> Hmm, I'm not convinced, sorry. 12m up and 'almost decking'? To me that would mean the climber's feet coming down to say head-height when standing at ground level. Even with a stretchy new rope I just can't see that happening without loads of slack from the belayer.
Until it happened to me I would have agreed with you. I would say that I probably went a couple of meters on slack before the rope started stretching. Was some of that slippage through the belay plate and the taking up of any small amount of slack in the rope before the stretch kicked in? Probably. But there would have been about 40m of rope between myself and the belayer. I my feet were a bit above my belayers head. So around 10 meters of slack/stretching.
It was the first time I'd ever climbed on the rope, it was brand new. That I would imagine had a fair bit to do with it. But it was still surprising. If you want to come to Wales with a new rope, I'll take you to the crag in question, I wouldn't be against further tests.
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Thanks all for the replies, really appreciate it.
The rope length is fine, I have a 70m dynamic that I use for top roping. It's a new one so I'll pre stretch it after reading the comments above. I have a 40m static that is used for the rigging.
You're right about leading. I have started this indoors, but not yet convinced I have the skills (actually it's more to do with confidence / bravery) to do it safely outdoors, certainly trad seems a long way off, but that is the ultimate goal. I've also started to practice taking falls as a leader......so scary! I can't get my head around it, puts the fear up me!
For the moment top roping is perfect as the kids love it too (7 & 10 years old).
Based in the south west (Plymouth area).
In terms of ability, I can climb 6b and 6c top roped in doors, and have lead a few 5's (grading based on Simon Young's Magic Wood centre, I think he flows the font grades) in doors. Done a few outdoors top roped in the 5 - 6 range on about 15 metres.
Not sure about a club as climbing is my 2nd sport really. The majority of my time goes in to cycling. I just don't think I'd have the time.
Post edited at 13:07
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In reply to Einriba:
Hello Einriba,
I've had a top-rope on Juliets Balcony for friends; was absolutely fine. Eyefull Tower is a bit different though, slightly overhanging and obviously a lot longer (from memory), so would suggest doing things on other parts of the crag until you begin to lead.
It's worth noting that length isn't everything. There are some seriously good routes in the quarry that are so easily top-roped, especially with the fence anchors all around!
A note of caution; Juliets Balcony is pretty sparse on gear. Lead a few other HVSs before you get on it. So good though!
I'm around in the summer, if you're local wouldn't mind heading up to cheesewring and giving you a belay on a few things if you're still interested.
Hello Einriba,
I've had a top-rope on Juliets Balcony for friends; was absolutely fine. Eyefull Tower is a bit different though, slightly overhanging and obviously a lot longer (from memory), so would suggest doing things on other parts of the crag until you begin to lead.
It's worth noting that length isn't everything. There are some seriously good routes in the quarry that are so easily top-roped, especially with the fence anchors all around!
A note of caution; Juliets Balcony is pretty sparse on gear. Lead a few other HVSs before you get on it. So good though!
I'm around in the summer, if you're local wouldn't mind heading up to cheesewring and giving you a belay on a few things if you're still interested.
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In reply to Einriba:
Cheesewring implies you're near Plymski? There's a good Facebook group for Plymouth comets where you can find people to climb with and teach you. Plus take to nicer places, Cheesewring is great fun but by God is a bit dark n depressing at times.
Cheesewring implies you're near Plymski? There's a good Facebook group for Plymouth comets where you can find people to climb with and teach you. Plus take to nicer places, Cheesewring is great fun but by God is a bit dark n depressing at times.
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In reply to Einriba:
Of course you can top rope a climb with the belayer at the top - less rope stretch, potentially advantages with children.
If you don't know what I mean, ask a local friendly trad climber to show you.
Of course you can top rope a climb with the belayer at the top - less rope stretch, potentially advantages with children.
If you don't know what I mean, ask a local friendly trad climber to show you.
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Ha ha, yes. A cycling top roper! Not gonna make many friends admitting that!
Belaying from the top is a good idea with the kids.
I'll check that local group out, thanks for the pointer
Belaying from the top is a good idea with the kids.
I'll check that local group out, thanks for the pointer
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In reply to Rick Graham:
Remind me not to let you belay me.
I'm currently projecting a 28m route that I sometimes lead from the ground, sometimes work on top-rope. Includes a fairly knarly dyno off a mono at around 8m that I only make about half the time. I'm trying it on a 'stretchy' 9.2mm rope, with a belayer about 75% of my weight, giving me a slackish rope (I hate tight ropes once I'm more than a few metres up). On the many occasions I 've come off this move on top-rope I 've never come even vaguely close to the ground. That you think it's normal to nearly hit the ground on a 25m route from 12m up is a bit worrying. Suggests sloppy and inattentive belaying to me.
> Looks about right to me.
Remind me not to let you belay me.
> You could maybe do some test falls next time you are out
I'm currently projecting a 28m route that I sometimes lead from the ground, sometimes work on top-rope. Includes a fairly knarly dyno off a mono at around 8m that I only make about half the time. I'm trying it on a 'stretchy' 9.2mm rope, with a belayer about 75% of my weight, giving me a slackish rope (I hate tight ropes once I'm more than a few metres up). On the many occasions I 've come off this move on top-rope I 've never come even vaguely close to the ground. That you think it's normal to nearly hit the ground on a 25m route from 12m up is a bit worrying. Suggests sloppy and inattentive belaying to me.
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In reply to Willi Crater:
I was not belaying on the incident described! Between the three of us on the day we had the best part of 150 years of climbing experience, we were aware, attentive but still shocked, for an instant, it was as if the rope had been cut.
I can assure everyone I am an attentive belayer ( I can even read a guidebook at the same time, 1984 Scafell guide photo )
Predicting rope stretch depends on far more factors than a lot of climbers realise.
It will probably be at a maximum if;
the rope is fully relaxed ie not weighted for at least a day or so
there is no tension in the rope (or even a bit of slack)
the rope is free running with little resistance from quickdrawers, rock edges etc
the belayer is standing out from the rock and the rope loops ( catenary ) in a bottom belaying/top rope scenario.
The rope stretch on your project was probably reduced by weighting the rope on the dog up and lowering off before you weighted it on top rope.
Looking up some rope specs, a typical extension on 80 kg weight is 9%. However this is a slow application of weight from 5 kg to 80 kg.
Weighting a rope is an instant increase from 0 to 80+ kg on the crag. The speed of the falling climber will increase the extension in the real world.
Repeating what I wrote in my first post , be aware.
> Remind me not to let you belay me.
> I'm currently projecting a 28m route that I sometimes lead from the ground, sometimes work on top-rope. Includes a fairly knarly dyno off a mono at around 8m that I only make about half the time. I'm trying it on a 'stretchy' 9.2mm rope, with a belayer about 75% of my weight, giving me a slackish rope (I hate tight ropes once I'm more than a few metres up). On the many occasions I 've come off this move on top-rope I 've never come even vaguely close to the ground. That you think it's normal to nearly hit the ground on a 25m route from 12m up is a bit worrying. Suggests sloppy and inattentive belaying to me.
I was not belaying on the incident described! Between the three of us on the day we had the best part of 150 years of climbing experience, we were aware, attentive but still shocked, for an instant, it was as if the rope had been cut.
I can assure everyone I am an attentive belayer ( I can even read a guidebook at the same time, 1984 Scafell guide photo )
Predicting rope stretch depends on far more factors than a lot of climbers realise.
It will probably be at a maximum if;
the rope is fully relaxed ie not weighted for at least a day or so
there is no tension in the rope (or even a bit of slack)
the rope is free running with little resistance from quickdrawers, rock edges etc
the belayer is standing out from the rock and the rope loops ( catenary ) in a bottom belaying/top rope scenario.
The rope stretch on your project was probably reduced by weighting the rope on the dog up and lowering off before you weighted it on top rope.
Looking up some rope specs, a typical extension on 80 kg weight is 9%. However this is a slow application of weight from 5 kg to 80 kg.
Weighting a rope is an instant increase from 0 to 80+ kg on the crag. The speed of the falling climber will increase the extension in the real world.
Repeating what I wrote in my first post , be aware.
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In reply to Dave Garnett:
"Try not to fall off for a second , I can't remember how to pass a knot!"
> I've toproped multipitch slabs by tying two ropes together but you do need a belayer who knows what they are doing.
"Try not to fall off for a second , I can't remember how to pass a knot!"
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I went up to Juliets Balcony yesterday and did the climb first ascent. It's ok isn't it. It's high, but there's only 1 or 2 tricky moves - notably right at the top when you need to get on to the last ledge with the big slabs of granite hanging down.
I liked the second half of the climb more than the first half - the second half is more technical (which I prefer) rather than muscling your way over big blocks of granite.
I think we'll head there again Saturday and try something else - possibly Simanon Direct, Star Fox or Khyber Wall. Maybe all 3 if time permits!
Would love to give Eyefull Tower ago, but it looks like top roping it might not be wise with such an over hang on it.
I was tempted to do a lead on a sport route last night, but we ran out of time......maybe on the weekend.....
I liked the second half of the climb more than the first half - the second half is more technical (which I prefer) rather than muscling your way over big blocks of granite.
I think we'll head there again Saturday and try something else - possibly Simanon Direct, Star Fox or Khyber Wall. Maybe all 3 if time permits!
Would love to give Eyefull Tower ago, but it looks like top roping it might not be wise with such an over hang on it.
I was tempted to do a lead on a sport route last night, but we ran out of time......maybe on the weekend.....
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