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TrowbarrowScary Monsters (E5 6a)
Hi All
I am making a visit to Trowbarrow this week. This is due to being made aware that someone has drastically altered the route Scary Monsters on the Assagai Wall.
I have just been reading the UKC Logbook section for this climb. Im so confused!! Everyone saying it is E3 and 5c and not bold?
I have looked at one of the accompanying photo's on the Logbook page and without having visited i can see what has been done.
I will put a link on here later this month, soon after i have paid my visit to Trowbarrow.The link will provide a detailed history of the Assagai Wall. First ascent and early repeat photographs of Scary Monsters and Doubting Thomas. The true line of Sense of Doubt etc. Showing the protection points in detail.
The key facts that i can see without a visit are thus. My route has been realigned to the right nearer to Sleeping Sickness. The photo shows fixed gear nowhere near the original. There is no loose rock on Scary Monsters if you go the right way. The crux and key protection are further left than in the photo. The route is solid old school 6a and nearer 6b. It would not be on anyones first E5 tick list!!!
I am really proud of my first ascents. Scary Monsters was a milestone for me at 18. Lancashire was steeped in history and respect. I did my first climb in 1975 with Bill Lounds a total local legend.
I have since gone on to make many more new routes. My finest being Owains Arete E7 in the Llanberis Pass. Routes such as this are respected.
You would not dream of changing a James McHaffie route would you? So why mine?Climbing is a continuum. Standards rise constantly. But the Social Media generation lack the traditional nurturing of a trad climber. So people at the top end climb harder yet the soft underbelly of mediocrity swells uncontrollably.
Assagai Wall lost its pegs because of one simple fact. It was aeons ago we did those new routes. People were still Aid climbing on Limestone so if we left pegs they got nicked. Bolting was not an issue. Assagai Wall was our Cromlech our Great Wall.
The 80's rocked literally. We climbed hard. Im only a youthful 50 now for f*cks sake! But Trowbarrow has a special defining place for me. The week i made the first ascent of Scary Monsters i onsighted Psycho at Caley (the only Mats i had were Beer Mats) and made the probable 2nd or 3rd ascent onsight of Life In The Fast Lane at Hodge. So i think im qualified to grade my first ascents.
So as i said you can look forward to a wee article on Assagai Wall once i have paid my visit and the return of my route and any other to the original state. With full consultation with the conservation body in alignment with the no bolting (drilled holes?)policy and the historical climbing significance of these bold wall climbs.
Yours Sincerely
Owain Jones
IFMGA Mountain Guide
Hi All
I am making a visit to Trowbarrow this week. This is due to being made aware that someone has drastically altered the route Scary Monsters on the Assagai Wall.
I have just been reading the UKC Logbook section for this climb. Im so confused!! Everyone saying it is E3 and 5c and not bold?
I have looked at one of the accompanying photo's on the Logbook page and without having visited i can see what has been done.
I will put a link on here later this month, soon after i have paid my visit to Trowbarrow.The link will provide a detailed history of the Assagai Wall. First ascent and early repeat photographs of Scary Monsters and Doubting Thomas. The true line of Sense of Doubt etc. Showing the protection points in detail.
The key facts that i can see without a visit are thus. My route has been realigned to the right nearer to Sleeping Sickness. The photo shows fixed gear nowhere near the original. There is no loose rock on Scary Monsters if you go the right way. The crux and key protection are further left than in the photo. The route is solid old school 6a and nearer 6b. It would not be on anyones first E5 tick list!!!
I am really proud of my first ascents. Scary Monsters was a milestone for me at 18. Lancashire was steeped in history and respect. I did my first climb in 1975 with Bill Lounds a total local legend.
I have since gone on to make many more new routes. My finest being Owains Arete E7 in the Llanberis Pass. Routes such as this are respected.
You would not dream of changing a James McHaffie route would you? So why mine?Climbing is a continuum. Standards rise constantly. But the Social Media generation lack the traditional nurturing of a trad climber. So people at the top end climb harder yet the soft underbelly of mediocrity swells uncontrollably.
Assagai Wall lost its pegs because of one simple fact. It was aeons ago we did those new routes. People were still Aid climbing on Limestone so if we left pegs they got nicked. Bolting was not an issue. Assagai Wall was our Cromlech our Great Wall.
The 80's rocked literally. We climbed hard. Im only a youthful 50 now for f*cks sake! But Trowbarrow has a special defining place for me. The week i made the first ascent of Scary Monsters i onsighted Psycho at Caley (the only Mats i had were Beer Mats) and made the probable 2nd or 3rd ascent onsight of Life In The Fast Lane at Hodge. So i think im qualified to grade my first ascents.
So as i said you can look forward to a wee article on Assagai Wall once i have paid my visit and the return of my route and any other to the original state. With full consultation with the conservation body in alignment with the no bolting (drilled holes?)policy and the historical climbing significance of these bold wall climbs.
Yours Sincerely
Owain Jones
IFMGA Mountain Guide
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In reply to Pavey Ark:
Three points to make.
1) Well said, Adam and Owain.
2) Not specific to Trowbarrow , but studying older guides and having climbed some routes over the years, a lot of route tweeking goes on. Some guidebook authors cannot resist altering descriptions, just a slight change of emphasis can alter the line later climbers follow. Diagrams can be distorted and /or compiled by different folk to the written description. The wrong line then gets written up as the original. It gets confusing. The sooner we define routes on phototopos the better.
3) If the routes mentioned in Hodge and Trowbarrow had not been first climbed in the late 70's/ early 80's, they would probably have been bolted. As Owain states, they have significant importance historically and should be left in the style of the first ascent.
Three points to make.
1) Well said, Adam and Owain.
2) Not specific to Trowbarrow , but studying older guides and having climbed some routes over the years, a lot of route tweeking goes on. Some guidebook authors cannot resist altering descriptions, just a slight change of emphasis can alter the line later climbers follow. Diagrams can be distorted and /or compiled by different folk to the written description. The wrong line then gets written up as the original. It gets confusing. The sooner we define routes on phototopos the better.
3) If the routes mentioned in Hodge and Trowbarrow had not been first climbed in the late 70's/ early 80's, they would probably have been bolted. As Owain states, they have significant importance historically and should be left in the style of the first ascent.
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In reply to Pavey Ark:
Yes, it's clear a different line is being taken by lots of contemporary climbers.
Yes, you have every right to be proud of your first ascent. However I don't think you need to get het up by today's climbers taking a different line, we're all just climbing a piece of rock. OK what some recent climbers have claimed as Scary Monsters may not be as scary or monstrous as what you did, but in the wider scheme of things does this really matter?
You know what you did back in the 80s and comments on UKC are not going to lessen that.
Some with an interest in history might want to know the exact original line taken, but every ascent is a climbing experience. The social media generation (I'm not part of it) have eradicated a good deal of the elitism from the climbing scene, some miss that, others perhaps regard it as a welcome change.
Ivan Bicknell
TOTAL climbing punter
Yes, it's clear a different line is being taken by lots of contemporary climbers.
Yes, you have every right to be proud of your first ascent. However I don't think you need to get het up by today's climbers taking a different line, we're all just climbing a piece of rock. OK what some recent climbers have claimed as Scary Monsters may not be as scary or monstrous as what you did, but in the wider scheme of things does this really matter?
You know what you did back in the 80s and comments on UKC are not going to lessen that.
Some with an interest in history might want to know the exact original line taken, but every ascent is a climbing experience. The social media generation (I'm not part of it) have eradicated a good deal of the elitism from the climbing scene, some miss that, others perhaps regard it as a welcome change.
Ivan Bicknell
TOTAL climbing punter
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In reply to The Ivanator:
You have utterly missed the point and your reply exemplifies exactly the current myopic. I wrote today not to flagellate my own ego but to express dismay as to the current malaise.
You have utterly missed the point and your reply exemplifies exactly the current myopic. I wrote today not to flagellate my own ego but to express dismay as to the current malaise.
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In reply to Pavey Ark:
Hi Owain
I've recently been proof-reading the Trowbarrow pages for the imminent Lancs guide. I was on the phone to Les Ainsworth last night and it looks like everything is almost ready to roll printing-wise. There is still time to get any necessary changes made to line topos or historical info - you'll have to remove the pegs yourself, sorry (no idea who put them in!). If you contact me directly I'll forward the page info for Assagai Wall (Red Wall too if you're concerned about any mistakes/errors there). I'm sure Les won't mind me doing this, in fact I'm emailing him next to make him aware of your concerns also.
Cheers, Karl Lunt
Hi Owain
I've recently been proof-reading the Trowbarrow pages for the imminent Lancs guide. I was on the phone to Les Ainsworth last night and it looks like everything is almost ready to roll printing-wise. There is still time to get any necessary changes made to line topos or historical info - you'll have to remove the pegs yourself, sorry (no idea who put them in!). If you contact me directly I'll forward the page info for Assagai Wall (Red Wall too if you're concerned about any mistakes/errors there). I'm sure Les won't mind me doing this, in fact I'm emailing him next to make him aware of your concerns also.
Cheers, Karl Lunt
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In reply to Pavey Ark:
Recounting highlights your admirable CV of first ascents of hard trad routes hardly seems a flagellation of your ego, rather the opposite.
Sorry for utterly missing your point, perhaps if you explain it differently my short-sightedness might be cured.
Recounting highlights your admirable CV of first ascents of hard trad routes hardly seems a flagellation of your ego, rather the opposite.
Sorry for utterly missing your point, perhaps if you explain it differently my short-sightedness might be cured.
Post edited at 14:04
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In reply to The Ivanator:
Furthermore Ivan. Quite the opposite of being Elitist i have spent my entire life introducing others to climbing. Both as a qualified Youth Worker and Mountain Guide. From humble first experiences for young people to helping others
achieve lifetime goals in climbing and mountaineering. But i suppose that makes me Elitist. I always thought that i was fuelled by passion.
Furthermore Ivan. Quite the opposite of being Elitist i have spent my entire life introducing others to climbing. Both as a qualified Youth Worker and Mountain Guide. From humble first experiences for young people to helping others
achieve lifetime goals in climbing and mountaineering. But i suppose that makes me Elitist. I always thought that i was fuelled by passion.
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In reply to The Ivanator:
Ivan. I did this to highlight the fact that i had the experience to grade my route. I thought i was very clear so my apologies. Im told one of the pegs on my route has been put in a drilled placement. Another forced in where before there was no crack only a beautiful bold finishing groove. It isnt Ego at all Ivan. It is not about me moving on because it was years ago. Its about vandalism and route destruction.
Ivan. I did this to highlight the fact that i had the experience to grade my route. I thought i was very clear so my apologies. Im told one of the pegs on my route has been put in a drilled placement. Another forced in where before there was no crack only a beautiful bold finishing groove. It isnt Ego at all Ivan. It is not about me moving on because it was years ago. Its about vandalism and route destruction.
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In reply to Pavey Ark:
I'm sure you are not elitist and through your work as a guide I'm certain you have brought much joy and knowledge. I felt the original post did have a tinge of that 80's elitism that some I've met seem to hold in fond regard (equally I know plenty who climbed in that era that don't miss it).
Maybe I'm reading stuff that isn't there and perhaps you didn't represent yourself as sympathetically as you deserve in the OP, probably a mixture of both.
Sincerely I wish you luck with sorting the lines on the Assagai Wall, despite valuing every ascent as a worthwhile climbing experience (obviously not where rock vandalism is part of the ethic!) it is nice to feel a sense of surety about the difficulty of what you've just done, and well researched and checked guidebooks are obviously the key to this.
I'm sure you are not elitist and through your work as a guide I'm certain you have brought much joy and knowledge. I felt the original post did have a tinge of that 80's elitism that some I've met seem to hold in fond regard (equally I know plenty who climbed in that era that don't miss it).
Maybe I'm reading stuff that isn't there and perhaps you didn't represent yourself as sympathetically as you deserve in the OP, probably a mixture of both.
Sincerely I wish you luck with sorting the lines on the Assagai Wall, despite valuing every ascent as a worthwhile climbing experience (obviously not where rock vandalism is part of the ethic!) it is nice to feel a sense of surety about the difficulty of what you've just done, and well researched and checked guidebooks are obviously the key to this.
Post edited at 14:20
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In reply to Pavey Ark:
Is it not simply that routes evolve over time? I've not climbed the route but I've done a few of the lines on that wall so forgive me if the details are off, but.
As more people climb a line, things get refined and straitened out, then as pegs are replaced they'll be replaced accordingly to accommodate the refined sequences. As for the grade, if the newer line is easier which seems to be the case then maybe it's for the better, you version although original and harder clearly isn't the easiest/best way to scale that piece of rock.
Maybe it would be better to have your route take the line it does and the newer variation also marked on the topo and given a new name (not so scary monsters?). Then side by side people can choose which variation they want to climb and take the appropriate grade for it. I would not go and try to destroy this "new" lines people are climbing but by all means re peg your line and make sure people are aware of where the true lines goes.
Is it not simply that routes evolve over time? I've not climbed the route but I've done a few of the lines on that wall so forgive me if the details are off, but.
As more people climb a line, things get refined and straitened out, then as pegs are replaced they'll be replaced accordingly to accommodate the refined sequences. As for the grade, if the newer line is easier which seems to be the case then maybe it's for the better, you version although original and harder clearly isn't the easiest/best way to scale that piece of rock.
Maybe it would be better to have your route take the line it does and the newer variation also marked on the topo and given a new name (not so scary monsters?). Then side by side people can choose which variation they want to climb and take the appropriate grade for it. I would not go and try to destroy this "new" lines people are climbing but by all means re peg your line and make sure people are aware of where the true lines goes.
Post edited at 14:22
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In reply to Lankyman:
Thanks Karl. That would be great. Im visiting Trowbarrow this week so will get back to you ASAP. The Red Wall historical i can help with too.
I did reply to a photo request i think from Niall Grimes sometime ago for photos of first ascents but never heard anything back. Can you also forward the Thorn Crag section? I sent details of first ascent corrections to the UKC moderator but am not sure if they have been recorded.
Thanks Karl. That would be great. Im visiting Trowbarrow this week so will get back to you ASAP. The Red Wall historical i can help with too.
I did reply to a photo request i think from Niall Grimes sometime ago for photos of first ascents but never heard anything back. Can you also forward the Thorn Crag section? I sent details of first ascent corrections to the UKC moderator but am not sure if they have been recorded.
In reply to Lord_ash2000:
At the time of the first ascent climbing a line nearer to Sleeping Sickness would have been regarded as unethical. Scary Monsters started further left at the very toe of the wall. The gear placed was the only gear. The new gear im told is bashed and drilled where previously none was available. If the two lines are independent i will regear Scary Monsters and leave the other.
This is what i dont uderstand Lord Ash.
At the time of the first ascent climbing a line nearer to Sleeping Sickness would have been regarded as unethical. Scary Monsters started further left at the very toe of the wall. The gear placed was the only gear. The new gear im told is bashed and drilled where previously none was available. If the two lines are independent i will regear Scary Monsters and leave the other.
This is what i dont uderstand Lord Ash.
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In reply to Pavey Ark:
Sorry, Owain - I don't have anything on Thorn Crag. I've only been looking at the Silverdale/Farleton/Hutton Roof crags. Les will shortly email me the FA lists for those to be checked over also. No offence to any UKC Moderators but the definitive guidebooks are probably more reliable as repositories of historical detail/disputes etc! If you haven't been to Trowbarrow lately, you may notice big changes - no-one gets chased off the crag any more and the quarry is managed as a nature reserve, happily sympathetically for climbers and other visitors.
Sorry, Owain - I don't have anything on Thorn Crag. I've only been looking at the Silverdale/Farleton/Hutton Roof crags. Les will shortly email me the FA lists for those to be checked over also. No offence to any UKC Moderators but the definitive guidebooks are probably more reliable as repositories of historical detail/disputes etc! If you haven't been to Trowbarrow lately, you may notice big changes - no-one gets chased off the crag any more and the quarry is managed as a nature reserve, happily sympathetically for climbers and other visitors.
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In reply to Pavey Ark:
Hi Owain,
As I see it the added pegs have certainly altered the line/nature of your route considerably. The first of the additional pegs is, as you say, quite near to Sleeping Sickness and judging by the chalk I've seen on the route, many folk climb directly in this line avoiding what was possibly the hardest technical part of the original route? (climbing from the lowest part of the wall to your remaining, original peg). I know another local climber has suggested that climbing directly to the original peg and passing it in the same line is E6.
The lose hold that has been mentioned came off earlier this year. It's near the top just before you join Assagai and adds another 5c/6a move to the finishing sequence... Although I've no idea if it's on your original line.
It was probably me who suggested that the first of the additional pegs was drilled. Some other climbers have disagreed but I really can't see how you could get a knife blade in there without improving things.
I reckon the Assagia wall routes are the best at Trowbarrow and look forward to your article to put the record straight.This really does need sorting out, as even the "new" line can be done in a couple of different ways, i.e. climbing up from the lowest part of the wall then moving right to the first new peg, or going directly to this point!
All the very best,
Mark
Hi Owain,
As I see it the added pegs have certainly altered the line/nature of your route considerably. The first of the additional pegs is, as you say, quite near to Sleeping Sickness and judging by the chalk I've seen on the route, many folk climb directly in this line avoiding what was possibly the hardest technical part of the original route? (climbing from the lowest part of the wall to your remaining, original peg). I know another local climber has suggested that climbing directly to the original peg and passing it in the same line is E6.
The lose hold that has been mentioned came off earlier this year. It's near the top just before you join Assagai and adds another 5c/6a move to the finishing sequence... Although I've no idea if it's on your original line.
It was probably me who suggested that the first of the additional pegs was drilled. Some other climbers have disagreed but I really can't see how you could get a knife blade in there without improving things.
I reckon the Assagia wall routes are the best at Trowbarrow and look forward to your article to put the record straight.This really does need sorting out, as even the "new" line can be done in a couple of different ways, i.e. climbing up from the lowest part of the wall then moving right to the first new peg, or going directly to this point!
All the very best,
Mark
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Mark
Thank you for this reply very well written and thoughtful. I realise i have rubbed a few people up today but it is not for the wrong reasons at all and was never my intention.
As a result of today Karl Lunt has sent me proof topos of the wall for the new guide. This is so kind of him and to his credit and that of the guidebook team i can hopefully clarify things at the last minute. Most of the wall climbs on the topo are incorrect to the point of changing the history of the first ascents.
Rather than spurting anymore i will consult with Karl and the team so that the next guide is definitive. Plus some ancient Fire Rock Boots, Ron Hill Tracksters and Coloradan Jim Collins Knee Length Striped Sock Photos for you all to chuckle over.
The original line i graded E4 6a and the start is as your friend says a lot harder. In modern money it is E6 6a/b and im aware of that. We were young and had nothing to compare with.
As i said i will put together a detailed topo of the wall and the lines with history and photos.
It may well be the best solution to define the history and present the routes in a way that allows for the recent changes. Some of the changes though directly impact and inherently change neighbouring climbs so there needs to be a balance. Especially if placements albeit Pegs are not natural but created.
I will sort the info as soon as i can. The most important issue is that we have respect for a wee wall in Lancashire that deserves to retain its place in UK trad climbing history.
Cheers
Owain
Thank you for this reply very well written and thoughtful. I realise i have rubbed a few people up today but it is not for the wrong reasons at all and was never my intention.
As a result of today Karl Lunt has sent me proof topos of the wall for the new guide. This is so kind of him and to his credit and that of the guidebook team i can hopefully clarify things at the last minute. Most of the wall climbs on the topo are incorrect to the point of changing the history of the first ascents.
Rather than spurting anymore i will consult with Karl and the team so that the next guide is definitive. Plus some ancient Fire Rock Boots, Ron Hill Tracksters and Coloradan Jim Collins Knee Length Striped Sock Photos for you all to chuckle over.
The original line i graded E4 6a and the start is as your friend says a lot harder. In modern money it is E6 6a/b and im aware of that. We were young and had nothing to compare with.
As i said i will put together a detailed topo of the wall and the lines with history and photos.
It may well be the best solution to define the history and present the routes in a way that allows for the recent changes. Some of the changes though directly impact and inherently change neighbouring climbs so there needs to be a balance. Especially if placements albeit Pegs are not natural but created.
I will sort the info as soon as i can. The most important issue is that we have respect for a wee wall in Lancashire that deserves to retain its place in UK trad climbing history.
Cheers
Owain
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In reply to Pavey Ark:
Hi Owain, personally I'd like to see you remove the pegs! I really like the routes on this wall - it's definitely the best bit of rock in the area. The new pegs look to have totally neutered Scary Monsters, as well as changing the line. The new line basically looks to use the LH holds on Sleeping Sickness with your RH. Scary Monsters is obviously an independent route, which along with being the original line is good enough reason to remove the pegs IMO. Regarding the grade, I think the move up and right from the peg is 6a/b depending on height. The E5 bit is getting to the peg though I thought. I also did a variant going direct from a crack/pocket left of the peg to the ramp feature, via a V7 ish dyno - this is worth E6, 6c, but it's such a minor variant that it's not worth recording.
As far as I'm aware myself, and everybody else that has done Doubting Thomas recently has started up Scary Monsters to the peg - there just doesn't seem to be any holds coming in from down and left! It would be interesting to know the history here! If holds have snapped then hopefully the guide will be updated at some point! Would be ascentionists might also like to know that the peg can be backed up with a wire and/or small cam. DT feels like top end E5 6b and I'd give it 3 stars.
George.
Hi Owain, personally I'd like to see you remove the pegs! I really like the routes on this wall - it's definitely the best bit of rock in the area. The new pegs look to have totally neutered Scary Monsters, as well as changing the line. The new line basically looks to use the LH holds on Sleeping Sickness with your RH. Scary Monsters is obviously an independent route, which along with being the original line is good enough reason to remove the pegs IMO. Regarding the grade, I think the move up and right from the peg is 6a/b depending on height. The E5 bit is getting to the peg though I thought. I also did a variant going direct from a crack/pocket left of the peg to the ramp feature, via a V7 ish dyno - this is worth E6, 6c, but it's such a minor variant that it's not worth recording.
As far as I'm aware myself, and everybody else that has done Doubting Thomas recently has started up Scary Monsters to the peg - there just doesn't seem to be any holds coming in from down and left! It would be interesting to know the history here! If holds have snapped then hopefully the guide will be updated at some point! Would be ascentionists might also like to know that the peg can be backed up with a wire and/or small cam. DT feels like top end E5 6b and I'd give it 3 stars.
George.
Post edited at 22:59
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In reply to GPN:
DT in its original way is 3 stars solid E5 6b and a classic of the grade. With the best moves on the wall and one of the best routes on Lancashire Limestone. That is a given. I did the 2nd ascent in 1985. Dave Bates is a hugely talented and understated climber. His route is by far the best. Thanks for your message. Hopefully my promised article will clarify things.
Cheers
Owain
DT in its original way is 3 stars solid E5 6b and a classic of the grade. With the best moves on the wall and one of the best routes on Lancashire Limestone. That is a given. I did the 2nd ascent in 1985. Dave Bates is a hugely talented and understated climber. His route is by far the best. Thanks for your message. Hopefully my promised article will clarify things.
Cheers
Owain
In reply to GPN:
I dont think your left hand variant at E6 6c is a minor add on!!!!Would have gone that way if i could! Doubting Thomas starts further left near what is now known as Sense of Doubt. This is actually (albeit a great route) not Sense of Doubt but a hybrid of Doubting Thomas and Sense of Doubt. Sense of Thomas!!!The start of DT is significantly left of SM. There use to be a big pedestal of rock in the old guides. This got trundled confusing the defining start features.
I dont think your left hand variant at E6 6c is a minor add on!!!!Would have gone that way if i could! Doubting Thomas starts further left near what is now known as Sense of Doubt. This is actually (albeit a great route) not Sense of Doubt but a hybrid of Doubting Thomas and Sense of Doubt. Sense of Thomas!!!The start of DT is significantly left of SM. There use to be a big pedestal of rock in the old guides. This got trundled confusing the defining start features.
In reply to Lord_ash2000:
I hope this is the outcome, as I climbed what is clearly an easier line, but had a really good time doing so. I agree that provided the lines, grades and history are accurately recorded, choice is given by leaving things as they are, and accusations of elitism are avoided.
I hope this is the outcome, as I climbed what is clearly an easier line, but had a really good time doing so. I agree that provided the lines, grades and history are accurately recorded, choice is given by leaving things as they are, and accusations of elitism are avoided.
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In reply to Pavey Ark:
By all means record the history some where, but I want the guide to guide me to the best ways up the rock. I'm not terribly interested in where the first ascensionist actually went or what it is called.
By all means record the history some where, but I want the guide to guide me to the best ways up the rock. I'm not terribly interested in where the first ascensionist actually went or what it is called.
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In reply to Pavey Ark:
Not to distract from the main issue, but do you know which of the Asylum routes used to be 'The Great Unlead' in the old 1980s Les Ainsworth guide? Am I (mis?)remembering you had a hand in that? Don't have a guide to hand and there's numerous routes on that wall now.
Not to distract from the main issue, but do you know which of the Asylum routes used to be 'The Great Unlead' in the old 1980s Les Ainsworth guide? Am I (mis?)remembering you had a hand in that? Don't have a guide to hand and there's numerous routes on that wall now.
I cannot really answer that Ian. Im not being elitist. In fact if you go back on the thread you will see that i say the best route on the wall is not mine but Doubting Thomas.
It is not just about history Ian if you are not interested in that i respect that. But you say you want to do the best line.
That is what i am trying to preserve. Assagai Walk presents a unique case as it is a bit featureless unlike a climbing wall.
The crux move of Doubting Thomas for example from undercuts to a hidden finger hold is one of the best moves of its grade in Lancs. The finishing bulge also. As is the crux of Scary Monsters and its finish.
My aims are the same to finally show people where these great routes go. Im going to help with the new guide topo at the 11th hour.
I was fuelled up yesterday having been told about SM by someone in a climbing shop in Keswick.
.
This is not a negative situation now. I think everyone who loves Assagai wall will benefit.
Im visiting this week to help with the topo. Im hoping my knowledge of the wall make it better for everyone. I have read carefully every post.
You will end up with the clearer guidebook with the best lines. If i place any pegs they will be exactly in the first ascent position so that people can choose to do that way.
With a bit of thought we could end up with more routes and links whilst keeping everyone entertained. After yesterday and some private messages i think this is doable.
Things get heated and debate gets us rattled. But it has been valuable. Ive learnt a lot and will act on this.
And we will put Assagai Wall up there again. Its obvious how many people like the venue.
Im signing out now Ian so cheers.
I will post the article when done as a Public Page on the Facebook page of Lancashire Rock Revival. If they dont mind. When it is posted the heads up will be on Rocktalk.
Enjoy your climbing. Im out of action at the moment with a big shoulder issue. Of to get results tomorrow with Mr Funk. Probably a familiar name to some of you!!
Cheers
Owain
It is not just about history Ian if you are not interested in that i respect that. But you say you want to do the best line.
That is what i am trying to preserve. Assagai Walk presents a unique case as it is a bit featureless unlike a climbing wall.
The crux move of Doubting Thomas for example from undercuts to a hidden finger hold is one of the best moves of its grade in Lancs. The finishing bulge also. As is the crux of Scary Monsters and its finish.
My aims are the same to finally show people where these great routes go. Im going to help with the new guide topo at the 11th hour.
I was fuelled up yesterday having been told about SM by someone in a climbing shop in Keswick.
.
This is not a negative situation now. I think everyone who loves Assagai wall will benefit.
Im visiting this week to help with the topo. Im hoping my knowledge of the wall make it better for everyone. I have read carefully every post.
You will end up with the clearer guidebook with the best lines. If i place any pegs they will be exactly in the first ascent position so that people can choose to do that way.
With a bit of thought we could end up with more routes and links whilst keeping everyone entertained. After yesterday and some private messages i think this is doable.
Things get heated and debate gets us rattled. But it has been valuable. Ive learnt a lot and will act on this.
And we will put Assagai Wall up there again. Its obvious how many people like the venue.
Im signing out now Ian so cheers.
I will post the article when done as a Public Page on the Facebook page of Lancashire Rock Revival. If they dont mind. When it is posted the heads up will be on Rocktalk.
Enjoy your climbing. Im out of action at the moment with a big shoulder issue. Of to get results tomorrow with Mr Funk. Probably a familiar name to some of you!!
Cheers
Owain
13
1
In reply to Pavey Ark:
Can't understand why your post has attracted so many Dislikes...you're raising important questions about a unique climbing space & some class routes - we did the FA of Sleeping Sickness, so a bit of parochialism might be forgiven.
Can't understand why your post has attracted so many Dislikes...you're raising important questions about a unique climbing space & some class routes - we did the FA of Sleeping Sickness, so a bit of parochialism might be forgiven.
3
In reply to steveriley:
I did the first ascent of The Great Unled, I thought it was significant enough to put in the guide as a challenge and Les agreed. In those days we would not consider using a bolt runner and it would have been one of the hardest wall routes around at the time.
> Not to distract from the main issue, but do you know which of the Asylum routes used to be 'The Great Unlead' in the old 1980s Les Ainsworth guide? Am I (mis?)remembering you had a hand in that? Don't have a guide to hand and there's numerous routes on that wall now.
I did the first ascent of The Great Unled, I thought it was significant enough to put in the guide as a challenge and Les agreed. In those days we would not consider using a bolt runner and it would have been one of the hardest wall routes around at the time.
4
1
In reply to Al Evans:
Thanks Al, I had a faff around on a top rope a long time ago and briefly fantasised about a lead (I wasn't good enough), just interested in which of the many routes the line took. I guess I could do my own research and look at the old guides and revisit Trowbarrow. That sounds like a plan
Thanks Al, I had a faff around on a top rope a long time ago and briefly fantasised about a lead (I wasn't good enough), just interested in which of the many routes the line took. I guess I could do my own research and look at the old guides and revisit Trowbarrow. That sounds like a plan
1
In reply to Greenbanks:
Hi
Class route. Thanks for this comment it means a lot. Am a bit stunned to be honest but i was warned that UKC takes no prisoners! Some of the values expressed though do represent a sea change in traditional rock climbing.
To be honest Greenbanks ive found it positive overall. It sounds like i may be able to resurrect the original SM around the more equipped line. If that works then there will have to be another post asking everyone to name the RH line before the guide!!! Scary Monsters was originally going to be called Woomera ( Australian Aboriginal Spear after the Assagai theme ). Instead we followed the main wall Bowie theme.
Cheers
Owain
Hi
Class route. Thanks for this comment it means a lot. Am a bit stunned to be honest but i was warned that UKC takes no prisoners! Some of the values expressed though do represent a sea change in traditional rock climbing.
To be honest Greenbanks ive found it positive overall. It sounds like i may be able to resurrect the original SM around the more equipped line. If that works then there will have to be another post asking everyone to name the RH line before the guide!!! Scary Monsters was originally going to be called Woomera ( Australian Aboriginal Spear after the Assagai theme ). Instead we followed the main wall Bowie theme.
Cheers
Owain
1
In reply to Al Evans:
Hi Al
I belayed Paul Carling on what i thought was the first lead on this wall along with an army of nervous admirers. He was always credited with the first ascent to my knowledge. Did you do this before the single bolt?
Hi Al
I belayed Paul Carling on what i thought was the first lead on this wall along with an army of nervous admirers. He was always credited with the first ascent to my knowledge. Did you do this before the single bolt?
In reply to Pavey Ark:
I never led it, I only top roped it on a slack top rope, much too scarey for me to lead with no gear.
I never led it, I only top roped it on a slack top rope, much too scarey for me to lead with no gear.
In reply to steveriley:
Hi Steve
Stuart Wood (Woody)
He is your man for the knowledge. He is along with Dave Bates probably the only other nutter who has repeated every route on the unled wall.
I watched him do his last line on there a few years back during his Purple Patch.
It was up there with one of the best bold trad leads i have ever witnessed. Stunning to watch. When psyched Woody is a brilliant technical wall master.
Hi Steve
Stuart Wood (Woody)
He is your man for the knowledge. He is along with Dave Bates probably the only other nutter who has repeated every route on the unled wall.
I watched him do his last line on there a few years back during his Purple Patch.
It was up there with one of the best bold trad leads i have ever witnessed. Stunning to watch. When psyched Woody is a brilliant technical wall master.
Post edited at 14:50
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In reply to Al Evans:
Cheers ah thats right i remember now it was in the guide like Bait. Paul was climbing extremely well at the time. Most impressive ive seen though is Woody on one of the bigger lines to the left. Masterclass in technique and boldness.
Cheers ah thats right i remember now it was in the guide like Bait. Paul was climbing extremely well at the time. Most impressive ive seen though is Woody on one of the bigger lines to the left. Masterclass in technique and boldness.
1
In reply to Pavey Ark:
Owain - I'm just emailing you Les's high res versions of the Assagai Wall photos (topo lines showing plus a blank version). With them you could probably sort out the true lines without me being there but let me know if you need me around (I can always stand guard for you while you ab for the pegs!). Cheers, Karl.
Owain - I'm just emailing you Les's high res versions of the Assagai Wall photos (topo lines showing plus a blank version). With them you could probably sort out the true lines without me being there but let me know if you need me around (I can always stand guard for you while you ab for the pegs!). Cheers, Karl.
In reply to Pavey Ark:
Sorry to hear about the shoulder. Wish I had seen him, I just didn't know at the time you could pay for a private diagnosis then switch to seeing him on the NHS.
Re: Assagai etc. I can't see how A Sense of Doubt as described in rock fax could be improved upon. The other stuff is way beyond me and may as well not exist as far as I am concerned. No need to respond. Good luck with the shoulder.
Sorry to hear about the shoulder. Wish I had seen him, I just didn't know at the time you could pay for a private diagnosis then switch to seeing him on the NHS.
Re: Assagai etc. I can't see how A Sense of Doubt as described in rock fax could be improved upon. The other stuff is way beyond me and may as well not exist as far as I am concerned. No need to respond. Good luck with the shoulder.
In reply to ian caton:
I willl respond Ian and you do not have to read. The new Sense of Doubt is good. YOU constantly misread. I said i will clarify things but not change current stuff. Unless pegs are drilled or more recently as has been suggested holds chipped.
You do make comments about not giving a crap about a lot of stuff and i personally dont understand this. Anyway never mind. Cheers.
I willl respond Ian and you do not have to read. The new Sense of Doubt is good. YOU constantly misread. I said i will clarify things but not change current stuff. Unless pegs are drilled or more recently as has been suggested holds chipped.
You do make comments about not giving a crap about a lot of stuff and i personally dont understand this. Anyway never mind. Cheers.
In reply to Greystoke:
My two pence worth.
I've climbed the two routes either side of Douting Thomas and in my view your route is clearly an independent line up the middle.
Climbers using the start of Sleeping Sickness to do Scary Monsters know that that is exactly that. The bold wall/slab from the toe of the buttress is the start, as is your Douting Thomas. Both involving bold absorbing climbing until the peg(s) are reached quite high above the ground.
As to the new pegs and removing/leaving them, you can view this a few different ways. The addition of the new pegs has made the 3 routes much more popular and sees regular ascents. Removing them returns the routes to how the original ascentionist climbed it, but if someone climbs it without clipping the pegs does that mean they should be removed totally?
My two pence worth.
I've climbed the two routes either side of Douting Thomas and in my view your route is clearly an independent line up the middle.
Climbers using the start of Sleeping Sickness to do Scary Monsters know that that is exactly that. The bold wall/slab from the toe of the buttress is the start, as is your Douting Thomas. Both involving bold absorbing climbing until the peg(s) are reached quite high above the ground.
As to the new pegs and removing/leaving them, you can view this a few different ways. The addition of the new pegs has made the 3 routes much more popular and sees regular ascents. Removing them returns the routes to how the original ascentionist climbed it, but if someone climbs it without clipping the pegs does that mean they should be removed totally?
1
In reply to petegunn:
Got the routes a little mixed up there, thought it was Doubting Thomas that was in the op.
Scary Monsters clearly starts at the toe of the buttress and climbs the bold wall up to the first peg, it does not climb up anywhere near Sleeping Sickness.
Got the routes a little mixed up there, thought it was Doubting Thomas that was in the op.
Scary Monsters clearly starts at the toe of the buttress and climbs the bold wall up to the first peg, it does not climb up anywhere near Sleeping Sickness.
1
In reply to Greystoke:
Looking forward to the update. Spent many an evening / afternoon / full day up there when I was at Uni and this thread has reminded me I need to go back sometime soon. A couple of decent photos with the correct lines shown and updates on what gear is in / out would be great.
Looking forward to the update. Spent many an evening / afternoon / full day up there when I was at Uni and this thread has reminded me I need to go back sometime soon. A couple of decent photos with the correct lines shown and updates on what gear is in / out would be great.
2
In reply to petegunn:
Hi Peter
Thanks for the info. This is what i am trying to ascertain. It does sound like that the routes can co exist. I am now very aware that the easier line sounds very popular. Ive also been told of chipping and drilled peg placements. I just hope this is not true. Thats the main thing.
This post and all the replies have been mega useful. I hope that people who like this wall will come to realise this.
The new Lancs guidebook is imminent. As a result of these posts i had contact from people involved. They sent me the unpublished topo. Routes were marked completely in the wrong place through no fault of anyone. It would have so confused everyone. We are sorting it and im so grateful for the proof reader Karl Lunt to get in touch. It is so 11th hour. Everyone will benefit.
With regards removing all the pegs if it was soloed Pete. When i first started climbing there with my mates we always top roped. The wall was so beautiful we never really thought seriously about doing leads and bashing pegs in. Sense of Doubt was the classic top rope. The old way is further left shorter and harder than the new way (which is longer and super). Then Scary Monsters then Doubting Thomas followed. The idea to peg and lead came later. New route fever and youth!
So personally i would be just as happy if the wall was peg free and top roped.
If the wall was discovered now. We would have well placed resin bolts with minimal impact and less mess than now. You will all be very surprised to know i would prefer this. Far more so than badly placed unsightly pegs. Placed sportingly though by someone who knew the routes. Bet no one expected that!!!!
Hi Peter
Thanks for the info. This is what i am trying to ascertain. It does sound like that the routes can co exist. I am now very aware that the easier line sounds very popular. Ive also been told of chipping and drilled peg placements. I just hope this is not true. Thats the main thing.
This post and all the replies have been mega useful. I hope that people who like this wall will come to realise this.
The new Lancs guidebook is imminent. As a result of these posts i had contact from people involved. They sent me the unpublished topo. Routes were marked completely in the wrong place through no fault of anyone. It would have so confused everyone. We are sorting it and im so grateful for the proof reader Karl Lunt to get in touch. It is so 11th hour. Everyone will benefit.
With regards removing all the pegs if it was soloed Pete. When i first started climbing there with my mates we always top roped. The wall was so beautiful we never really thought seriously about doing leads and bashing pegs in. Sense of Doubt was the classic top rope. The old way is further left shorter and harder than the new way (which is longer and super). Then Scary Monsters then Doubting Thomas followed. The idea to peg and lead came later. New route fever and youth!
So personally i would be just as happy if the wall was peg free and top roped.
If the wall was discovered now. We would have well placed resin bolts with minimal impact and less mess than now. You will all be very surprised to know i would prefer this. Far more so than badly placed unsightly pegs. Placed sportingly though by someone who knew the routes. Bet no one expected that!!!!
3
In reply to Greystoke:
I just wanted to add that this is what the internet does best - people with funny little bits of information stored away, people who were there, people who care, people agile enough to jump in and make the next generation of guidebooks better. All for the sake of a scabby (brilliant) bit of rock in a disused quarry. A bit of rock we've had times on that matter to us.
I just wanted to add that this is what the internet does best - people with funny little bits of information stored away, people who were there, people who care, people agile enough to jump in and make the next generation of guidebooks better. All for the sake of a scabby (brilliant) bit of rock in a disused quarry. A bit of rock we've had times on that matter to us.
3
In reply to steveriley:
Also good for clearing up mysteries...In this case about Scary Monsters
I did the line as it was and thought it was bold and as the name suggests; scary (top rope practise first).
I couldn't understand people who said they'd done it telling me it wasn't that bad and wasn't that high in the E-grades.
This thread explains things as the two people people I've talked about the route with described the route starting further right than I started. It's been bugging me for months!
Also good for clearing up mysteries...In this case about Scary Monsters
I did the line as it was and thought it was bold and as the name suggests; scary (top rope practise first).
I couldn't understand people who said they'd done it telling me it wasn't that bad and wasn't that high in the E-grades.
This thread explains things as the two people people I've talked about the route with described the route starting further right than I started. It's been bugging me for months!
2
In reply to squarecow:
Owain, Les and myself met at Trowbarrow last night to thrash out the lines on Red and Assagai Walls. The rain didn't help but hey - Red Wall was bone dry and not a bod in sight! Well done, the lads who shot up Jean Jeanie in the wet - one of the best whippers I ever saw was from there in similar conditions (his feet almost touched ground on the rope stretch). Hopefully (due in large part to Owains extensive knowledge, enthusiasm and good memory!) we've nailed it by and large. More hopefully, Les will be able to re-jig the topos and get the record straightened out before the print deadlines which are this weekend I believe?
Owain, Les and myself met at Trowbarrow last night to thrash out the lines on Red and Assagai Walls. The rain didn't help but hey - Red Wall was bone dry and not a bod in sight! Well done, the lads who shot up Jean Jeanie in the wet - one of the best whippers I ever saw was from there in similar conditions (his feet almost touched ground on the rope stretch). Hopefully (due in large part to Owains extensive knowledge, enthusiasm and good memory!) we've nailed it by and large. More hopefully, Les will be able to re-jig the topos and get the record straightened out before the print deadlines which are this weekend I believe?
7
In reply to Lankyman:
Well done to all concerned - a big contribution to both the tradition & excellence of a really great climbing spot
Well done to all concerned - a big contribution to both the tradition & excellence of a really great climbing spot
2
In reply to Lankyman:
Nice work all! I'm really looking forward to all of this stuff being sorted out and can't wait for the arrival of the new guide. (Btw Tom Walkington and me were on Red Wall, in the rain, this morning, (until it was time to go and watch the England/Wales match). It remained dry the entire time!
Nice work all! I'm really looking forward to all of this stuff being sorted out and can't wait for the arrival of the new guide. (Btw Tom Walkington and me were on Red Wall, in the rain, this morning, (until it was time to go and watch the England/Wales match). It remained dry the entire time!
Post edited at 21:02
1
In reply to Mick Ward:
.... You can even convince yourself that you are being really virtuous, although in reality the rain makes absolutely no difference
.... You can even convince yourself that you are being really virtuous, although in reality the rain makes absolutely no difference
In reply to Mark Harding:
I still remember holding your ropes on Izzy the Push as you took a gentle fall from the peg, just three months after being discharged from hospital. I probably still couldn't lead it
Dave
I still remember holding your ropes on Izzy the Push as you took a gentle fall from the peg, just three months after being discharged from hospital. I probably still couldn't lead it
Dave
1
In reply to Mick Ward: I have looked at Red Walls, as in gone behind the trees and seen how it stays dry. Unfortunately there's nothing there for a real punter such as myself.
In reply to Greystoke:
Did Scary Monsters on Tuesday night. I followed the line/ description in the topo that I had printed out and it felt right at E5 6a/b
luckily two guys were there mentioned that new pegs had been added to the right, but to be honest I don't think they affect the original Scary Monsters as long as you follow the description of starting at the centre/ lowest part of the wall, up to the single peg, and heading up and slightly right from it.
If you're climbing anywhere near the 2 new pegs then you're definitely not on Scary Monsters, and if you're on the correct line of Scary Monsters then you wouldn't be able to clip them.
I would of thought a clear description and a photo topi with the correct line for the route on would ensure people take the right line/ do the right route.
Good work on a great first ascent of the original!!
Gus
Did Scary Monsters on Tuesday night. I followed the line/ description in the topo that I had printed out and it felt right at E5 6a/b
luckily two guys were there mentioned that new pegs had been added to the right, but to be honest I don't think they affect the original Scary Monsters as long as you follow the description of starting at the centre/ lowest part of the wall, up to the single peg, and heading up and slightly right from it.
If you're climbing anywhere near the 2 new pegs then you're definitely not on Scary Monsters, and if you're on the correct line of Scary Monsters then you wouldn't be able to clip them.
I would of thought a clear description and a photo topi with the correct line for the route on would ensure people take the right line/ do the right route.
Good work on a great first ascent of the original!!
Gus
In reply to Gus:
In summary (maybe not!): what a great thread this has been. A debate, a bit of jousting, historical issues discussed, anecdotes...all mainly in a great spirit, and all about one of the really grand climbing spots in North Lancs.
I've certainly enjoyed it!
In summary (maybe not!): what a great thread this has been. A debate, a bit of jousting, historical issues discussed, anecdotes...all mainly in a great spirit, and all about one of the really grand climbing spots in North Lancs.
I've certainly enjoyed it!
4
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