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Back in April 2015 some misguided climbers bolted a trad rock route at Craig a Barns - Just for Laughs E2 5b, for the purpose of dry tooling, not just for a laugh I presume!
Luckily they were soon noticed and stopped before they did much damage with their axes and crampons. I removed the bolt hangars but the threaded studs are still there, sticking out about 2cm.
Does anyone have a cordless angle grinder and would like to do a good deed, or could lend me a grinder to do the deed myself? I did try with a hacksaw but jings its hard work. I'm happy to cement over the studs after they are cut flush with the rock.
I know that Just for Laughs is not a brilliant route but it does occasionally get done (along with its easier neighbour - Alternative Comedy), so it would be good to restore it.
Luckily they were soon noticed and stopped before they did much damage with their axes and crampons. I removed the bolt hangars but the threaded studs are still there, sticking out about 2cm.
Does anyone have a cordless angle grinder and would like to do a good deed, or could lend me a grinder to do the deed myself? I did try with a hacksaw but jings its hard work. I'm happy to cement over the studs after they are cut flush with the rock.
I know that Just for Laughs is not a brilliant route but it does occasionally get done (along with its easier neighbour - Alternative Comedy), so it would be good to restore it.
27
In reply to Grahame N:
I suspect you'll struggle to get it done in a session with a battery powered one, they take a fair while to get through.
I suspect you'll struggle to get it done in a session with a battery powered one, they take a fair while to get through.
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In reply to Grahame N:
I've got one with 2 batteries. With a thin cutting disk it will cut through a bolt like a hot knife through butter.
Trouble is I’ve misplaced the spanner to change the disks and its got a diamond cutter on its just now for cutting bricks! Will give you a shout when I find it, if you don’t get any better offers.
Agree either of the Dunkeld crags are not suitable venues for dry tooling.
I've got one with 2 batteries. With a thin cutting disk it will cut through a bolt like a hot knife through butter.
Trouble is I’ve misplaced the spanner to change the disks and its got a diamond cutter on its just now for cutting bricks! Will give you a shout when I find it, if you don’t get any better offers.
Agree either of the Dunkeld crags are not suitable venues for dry tooling.
2
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In reply to Grahame N:
I think the answer is to get the person who bolted it to remove them, without leaving a trace. People who are willing to bolt need to learn how to remove them. There are lots of old bolts around our crags that need removed, as well as ones that shouldn't have been placed, and bolters don't seem to consider it is their role. Bolt funds could be used for removal purposes.
Good luck,
John
I think the answer is to get the person who bolted it to remove them, without leaving a trace. People who are willing to bolt need to learn how to remove them. There are lots of old bolts around our crags that need removed, as well as ones that shouldn't have been placed, and bolters don't seem to consider it is their role. Bolt funds could be used for removal purposes.
Good luck,
John
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In reply to Grahame N:
Have you tried knocking it in with a hammer? If the person who bolted it knows what they are doing, the hole should be deeper than the length of the bolt so it can be hammered flush
Have you tried knocking it in with a hammer? If the person who bolted it knows what they are doing, the hole should be deeper than the length of the bolt so it can be hammered flush
10
2
In reply to Grahame N:
If its a 10mm stud and there are a genuine 2cm sticking out you can snap it off easily flush with the rock. DO NOT attempt to hammer it in.
If hole is not deep enough you get left with a short stub which is hard to remove.
Repeated gentle blows with a decent hammer up and down and side to side allowing the stud to bend to perhaps 45 degrees before reversing its direction of travel will see it snap off flush with rock with a little effort. It might then be possible to punch the flush end into the rock (if hole is deep enough, hence another good reason not to try and hit it in at start!) allowing an almost perfect cement job.
If its a 10mm stud and there are a genuine 2cm sticking out you can snap it off easily flush with the rock. DO NOT attempt to hammer it in.
If hole is not deep enough you get left with a short stub which is hard to remove.
Repeated gentle blows with a decent hammer up and down and side to side allowing the stud to bend to perhaps 45 degrees before reversing its direction of travel will see it snap off flush with rock with a little effort. It might then be possible to punch the flush end into the rock (if hole is deep enough, hence another good reason not to try and hit it in at start!) allowing an almost perfect cement job.
7
In reply to Grahame N:
http://eveningsends.com/chop-bolt-right/
Check the vid at the end...
The only real way of removing non-glue bolts...
http://eveningsends.com/chop-bolt-right/
Check the vid at the end...
The only real way of removing non-glue bolts...
2
In reply to Grahame N:
The hole may be deep enough to tap the bolt into. Even if you try and find it's not deep enough there's no problem as you can simply put a washer and nut back on and tighten it and the bolt will come back out to its original position. As someone said above, careful blows with a hammer up and down will usually be enough to break the bolt off. However, some bolts are more resistant to this than others so you can pre-empt this by cutting part way through (or of course all the way through) the bolt with a hacksaw - NOTE, not a regular hacksaw, but one where the blade sticks out of a metal handle so you can cut as close as possible to the rock without damaging it (or your knuckles). Now one well aimed blow is usually enough to just shear it off. Patch with any sort of glue and rub dirt into it. People usually say rub rock drill dust into it, but a) you won't have any... and b) fresh dust is a completely different colour to the weathered rock.
The hole may be deep enough to tap the bolt into. Even if you try and find it's not deep enough there's no problem as you can simply put a washer and nut back on and tighten it and the bolt will come back out to its original position. As someone said above, careful blows with a hammer up and down will usually be enough to break the bolt off. However, some bolts are more resistant to this than others so you can pre-empt this by cutting part way through (or of course all the way through) the bolt with a hacksaw - NOTE, not a regular hacksaw, but one where the blade sticks out of a metal handle so you can cut as close as possible to the rock without damaging it (or your knuckles). Now one well aimed blow is usually enough to just shear it off. Patch with any sort of glue and rub dirt into it. People usually say rub rock drill dust into it, but a) you won't have any... and b) fresh dust is a completely different colour to the weathered rock.
2
In reply to Grahame N:
Would it be possible to unscrew it, by threading 2 nuts onto the stub, tighten them up hard against each other (not the rock) and then unscrew using the inner nut?
Would it be possible to unscrew it, by threading 2 nuts onto the stub, tighten them up hard against each other (not the rock) and then unscrew using the inner nut?
Post edited at 19:46
In reply to HeMa:
Thats quite an oddway to do it. Why didnt they use a hollow tube to suck the entire bolt out with ? 150mm of scaff pole with the washer ontop would do the trick.
Thats quite an oddway to do it. Why didnt they use a hollow tube to suck the entire bolt out with ? 150mm of scaff pole with the washer ontop would do the trick.
In reply to Burnsie:
Is it just a wee spanner with two pegs? If so, I can post you the one off my mains powered angle grinder, post it back later?
Is it just a wee spanner with two pegs? If so, I can post you the one off my mains powered angle grinder, post it back later?
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In reply to John Lyall:
That would be ideal John. However I dont know who the bolters were, it wasn't me who caught them.
Maybe they are reading this and will do the decent thing!
> I think the answer is to get the person who bolted it to remove them, without leaving a trace.
That would be ideal John. However I dont know who the bolters were, it wasn't me who caught them.
Maybe they are reading this and will do the decent thing!
2
In reply to mark20:
I did try hammering a couple of them in, but with no success. They either bottom out in the hole or more likely they are glued in.
> Have you tried knocking it in with a hammer? If the person who bolted it knows what they are doing, the hole should be deeper than the length of the bolt so it can be hammered flush
I did try hammering a couple of them in, but with no success. They either bottom out in the hole or more likely they are glued in.
1
In reply to cragtyke:
That sounds like a simple but cunning plan. I'll give that a try first, but I suspect they are glued in and will be stuck fast.
> Would it be possible to unscrew it, by threading 2 nuts onto the stub, tighten them up hard against each other (not the rock) and then unscrew using the inner nut?
That sounds like a simple but cunning plan. I'll give that a try first, but I suspect they are glued in and will be stuck fast.
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In reply to sheppy:
This sounds like a good method. I'll try this if the 2 nuts trick doesn't work. And I'll cut a nick with a hacksaw as advised by Jon above.
> Repeated gentle blows with a decent hammer up and down and side to side allowing the stud to bend to perhaps 45 degrees before reversing its direction of travel will see it snap off flush with rock with a little effort.
This sounds like a good method. I'll try this if the 2 nuts trick doesn't work. And I'll cut a nick with a hacksaw as advised by Jon above.
2
In reply to Burnsie:
Thanks, I'll give you a shout if the other methods mentioned above don't work.
> I've got one with 2 batteries. With a thin cutting disk it will cut through a bolt like a hot knife through butter.
Thanks, I'll give you a shout if the other methods mentioned above don't work.
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In reply to Grahame N:
Pull the ones that you've tried to knock in back out by putting the nut back on and screwing it up. That way when you saw them, they are tight in the hole and they don't just turn with the sawing action. It also means that when you break them off, you can knock them a little way in so you can fill the hole with glue. Best to saw about half way through. I've broken loads like this and it works really well. If you don't saw through and they bend and start to turn in the hole... you're stuffed!
Pull the ones that you've tried to knock in back out by putting the nut back on and screwing it up. That way when you saw them, they are tight in the hole and they don't just turn with the sawing action. It also means that when you break them off, you can knock them a little way in so you can fill the hole with glue. Best to saw about half way through. I've broken loads like this and it works really well. If you don't saw through and they bend and start to turn in the hole... you're stuffed!
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In reply to Grahame N:
At the risk of starting a flame war, surely you would have caused less damage by leaving their bolts in place, it's not like a bolt is really very visible from any distance. You don't have to clip them if you don't want to!
At the risk of starting a flame war, surely you would have caused less damage by leaving their bolts in place, it's not like a bolt is really very visible from any distance. You don't have to clip them if you don't want to!
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In reply to springfall2008:
2 points.
First lets visualise this, The Indian Face, E9 6c, death on a stick route, incredibly run out above woeful gear. Requires immense mental stamina, resolve and strength to commit to that LONELY path. Now lets visualise a row of nice shiny solid bolts up the side - is it the same, even if you start off planning to only use trad gear, knowing you can always clip a bolt if you get scared?
Second if the bolts stay in then that gives encouragement to those folk who would bolt everything on the basis of it doesn't make any difference, when it does. Bolts would soon proliferate and we would be like the USA where adding bolts to something because you personally find it too run out is ok. We have a different ethic here, if you cant do it move on to something you can unless it is generally deemed to be a sports venue or sector.
So, bolts in the wrong places have to come out (that's a very simplified version, plenty of historical grey areas).
2 points.
First lets visualise this, The Indian Face, E9 6c, death on a stick route, incredibly run out above woeful gear. Requires immense mental stamina, resolve and strength to commit to that LONELY path. Now lets visualise a row of nice shiny solid bolts up the side - is it the same, even if you start off planning to only use trad gear, knowing you can always clip a bolt if you get scared?
Second if the bolts stay in then that gives encouragement to those folk who would bolt everything on the basis of it doesn't make any difference, when it does. Bolts would soon proliferate and we would be like the USA where adding bolts to something because you personally find it too run out is ok. We have a different ethic here, if you cant do it move on to something you can unless it is generally deemed to be a sports venue or sector.
So, bolts in the wrong places have to come out (that's a very simplified version, plenty of historical grey areas).
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In reply to philhilo:
I fully agree with your point, if the Trad routes ended up bolted it's not the same. But I guess it's hard to undo the damage and just cutting the bolts off leaves something fairly ugly as well - unless there is maybe some type of rock colored filler you can use.
I fully agree with your point, if the Trad routes ended up bolted it's not the same. But I guess it's hard to undo the damage and just cutting the bolts off leaves something fairly ugly as well - unless there is maybe some type of rock colored filler you can use.
In reply to Grahame N:
Like Jon said, weaken them with a hacksaw and then snap them off bending them with a hammer. Alternatively a battery powed angle grinder or just overtighten them with a long spanner until they shear, normally they fail just below the surface (right under the nut) and sometimes at the base of the cone. However they are usually designed that they start spinning before they fail so then you´ll have to go back to cutting/breaking them.
The other suggestions merely show ignorance of how the normal bolts used actually work!
Like Jon said, weaken them with a hacksaw and then snap them off bending them with a hammer. Alternatively a battery powed angle grinder or just overtighten them with a long spanner until they shear, normally they fail just below the surface (right under the nut) and sometimes at the base of the cone. However they are usually designed that they start spinning before they fail so then you´ll have to go back to cutting/breaking them.
The other suggestions merely show ignorance of how the normal bolts used actually work!
8
In reply to springfall2008:
When you see sport routes that have been re-bolted the old holes are quite hard to spot to be honest so definitely less visible than the bolt and/or hanger. Up close some routes look like pin cushions there are that many holes, but hard to spot due to dust/dirt and cobwebs! Also the OP is planning on cementing over the holes - they will then be very hard to spot in a season or so.
When you see sport routes that have been re-bolted the old holes are quite hard to spot to be honest so definitely less visible than the bolt and/or hanger. Up close some routes look like pin cushions there are that many holes, but hard to spot due to dust/dirt and cobwebs! Also the OP is planning on cementing over the holes - they will then be very hard to spot in a season or so.
5
In reply to jon:
If you have already tried to hammer them in its possible rethreading the nut will be impossible.
The two nut method will have no success at all (cant even get a clear mental picture of what this involves) as these bolts cannot be physically pulled out without a heavy duty hauling rig and that still relies on the threads being intact and being able to take the pull load.
If they are resin retained its either, saw, snap or if you have the kit its possible to trepan them out with a hollow core diamond bit.
See Jims excellent website Bolt products for more details on this technique.
If you have already tried to hammer them in its possible rethreading the nut will be impossible.
The two nut method will have no success at all (cant even get a clear mental picture of what this involves) as these bolts cannot be physically pulled out without a heavy duty hauling rig and that still relies on the threads being intact and being able to take the pull load.
If they are resin retained its either, saw, snap or if you have the kit its possible to trepan them out with a hollow core diamond bit.
See Jims excellent website Bolt products for more details on this technique.
Post edited at 11:55
In reply to sheppy:
Yes you're right of course. That's why you don't try to drive it into the next valley if you feel it hit the bottom of the hole. Just gentle tapping is all that's required in the first place to knock the bolt in to release the expansion collar. Personally, if they're not bolts I've placed and therefore know the depth of the hole, I just saw them and then break them off without trying to knock them in.
> If you have already tried to hammer them in its possible rethreading the nut will be impossible.
Yes you're right of course. That's why you don't try to drive it into the next valley if you feel it hit the bottom of the hole. Just gentle tapping is all that's required in the first place to knock the bolt in to release the expansion collar. Personally, if they're not bolts I've placed and therefore know the depth of the hole, I just saw them and then break them off without trying to knock them in.
In reply to Grahame N:
Before you do anything it's probably worth establishing exactly what you're dealing with. The visible bit, presumably, is 2cm of threaded stud protruding from the rock. This is most likely a throughbolt/parabolt of the type that one would normally obtain when buying a non-resin unit from a climbing gear supplier; at the business end there's a reverse taper with an expanding collar around it, and if you use the overtightening method that Jim describes the break occurs at the thinnest section at the base of the taper deep within the hole. You obviously can't "unscrew" this sort of bolt because it's not screwed in to start with. Or it could be a piece of threaded bar that's been glued in - probably less likely but still possible; I've certainly seen this type unscrewed with the two-nut system, but have no idea whether it's infallible. A parabolt would normally have a smartly-finished end with a slight bevel/taper to make it easier to get a nut started, while a threaded bar will have probably been cut (with a hacksaw?) from a longer piece and will look somewhat cruder (plus traces of resin); I'm assuming here that no commercially-produced glue-in system consists simply of a piece of threaded bar and some glue. A glued-in bar clearly won't move at all when hammered, unless you actually manage to break the bond between resin and rock which could then mean that unscrewing wouldn't work.
Before you do anything it's probably worth establishing exactly what you're dealing with. The visible bit, presumably, is 2cm of threaded stud protruding from the rock. This is most likely a throughbolt/parabolt of the type that one would normally obtain when buying a non-resin unit from a climbing gear supplier; at the business end there's a reverse taper with an expanding collar around it, and if you use the overtightening method that Jim describes the break occurs at the thinnest section at the base of the taper deep within the hole. You obviously can't "unscrew" this sort of bolt because it's not screwed in to start with. Or it could be a piece of threaded bar that's been glued in - probably less likely but still possible; I've certainly seen this type unscrewed with the two-nut system, but have no idea whether it's infallible. A parabolt would normally have a smartly-finished end with a slight bevel/taper to make it easier to get a nut started, while a threaded bar will have probably been cut (with a hacksaw?) from a longer piece and will look somewhat cruder (plus traces of resin); I'm assuming here that no commercially-produced glue-in system consists simply of a piece of threaded bar and some glue. A glued-in bar clearly won't move at all when hammered, unless you actually manage to break the bond between resin and rock which could then mean that unscrewing wouldn't work.
Post edited at 13:39
In reply to Grahame N:
Hi Grahame. I was once told that one should use a sharp hard steel chisel. Hammer flush with the rock from above to create a good nick in the relatively soft steel of the bolt. One hard confident blow was recommended. Then you give the stub an almighty wham with the hammer from above and it snaps flush. Again I was told a single Thor like blow was the biscuit, rather than weak taps that just bend it. Never tested this, but you could try ...
GT in Italy
Hi Grahame. I was once told that one should use a sharp hard steel chisel. Hammer flush with the rock from above to create a good nick in the relatively soft steel of the bolt. One hard confident blow was recommended. Then you give the stub an almighty wham with the hammer from above and it snaps flush. Again I was told a single Thor like blow was the biscuit, rather than weak taps that just bend it. Never tested this, but you could try ...
GT in Italy
Post edited at 13:59
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In reply to Grahame N:
There are some comical methods described further up!
You firstly need to identify the bolt type, if it's a sleve/through bolt then they are easy to remove with just a spanner, nut and a stack of M10 washers, simply keep tightening the nut as far as it will go then remove the nut, add a stack of washers and repeat until you have removed the bolt.
Chemfixed anchors on the other hand are much harder to remove but it is doable with the above method.
I have removed dozens of both bolts and studs in very restricted spaces using the above method and have yet to be beaten!
There are some comical methods described further up!
You firstly need to identify the bolt type, if it's a sleve/through bolt then they are easy to remove with just a spanner, nut and a stack of M10 washers, simply keep tightening the nut as far as it will go then remove the nut, add a stack of washers and repeat until you have removed the bolt.
Chemfixed anchors on the other hand are much harder to remove but it is doable with the above method.
I have removed dozens of both bolts and studs in very restricted spaces using the above method and have yet to be beaten!
In reply to Grahame N:
Really most types of bolt will come out / snap off without using a grinder. Using a grinder is a pain in the ass and can also damage / mark the rock, never mind slipping in an awkward position and marking yourself. As mentioned above a few types can be removed by extracting with nuts washers etc but three or four swift blows with a hammer will snap off most bolts with a diameter of 10mm or 12mm. If you faced with larger diameters, short studs or harder materials the method above of weakening with a cold chisel works well. I have extracted hundreds of bolts of various types and sizes on construction sites, crags & caves and never had to resort to a grinder. The above method will snap the bolt most times just below the surface or flush with it allowing for cosmetic filling.
Really most types of bolt will come out / snap off without using a grinder. Using a grinder is a pain in the ass and can also damage / mark the rock, never mind slipping in an awkward position and marking yourself. As mentioned above a few types can be removed by extracting with nuts washers etc but three or four swift blows with a hammer will snap off most bolts with a diameter of 10mm or 12mm. If you faced with larger diameters, short studs or harder materials the method above of weakening with a cold chisel works well. I have extracted hundreds of bolts of various types and sizes on construction sites, crags & caves and never had to resort to a grinder. The above method will snap the bolt most times just below the surface or flush with it allowing for cosmetic filling.
1
In reply to Grahame N:
Thanks everyone for the very good advice.
I had a couple of hours to spare this morning so went to the crag and successfully 'chopped' 3 of the bolts, there are 9 altogether.
I think they must be parabolts as they have "smartly-finished ends with a slight bevel/taper" as Ian Parsons described above. However they are also glued/cemented into the holes.
As suggested, I hacksawed about half way through as close to the rock as possible, then hammered side to side until it broke off. Took about 15 mins for each one. A short hacksaw is essential (as Jon suggested) to get close to the rock.
I can see a problem with one of the other ones which is in a concave patch of rock, so it will be difficult to hacksaw.
I took before and after photos and tried to upload them but I immediately got an email from UKC saying they might be 'inappropriate' and would have to be referred to the Photo Editor!
Thanks everyone for the very good advice.
I had a couple of hours to spare this morning so went to the crag and successfully 'chopped' 3 of the bolts, there are 9 altogether.
I think they must be parabolts as they have "smartly-finished ends with a slight bevel/taper" as Ian Parsons described above. However they are also glued/cemented into the holes.
As suggested, I hacksawed about half way through as close to the rock as possible, then hammered side to side until it broke off. Took about 15 mins for each one. A short hacksaw is essential (as Jon suggested) to get close to the rock.
I can see a problem with one of the other ones which is in a concave patch of rock, so it will be difficult to hacksaw.
I took before and after photos and tried to upload them but I immediately got an email from UKC saying they might be 'inappropriate' and would have to be referred to the Photo Editor!
In reply to Grahame N:
The concave rock ones might be better weakened by the chisel method mentioned previously.
If you cannot get a clean swing to hit the bolt in the snapping off phase, try a short length of bar with flat ends.
Touch this on the bolt and hit it with the hammer, far more accurate.
> As suggested, I hacksawed about half way through as close to the rock as possible, then hammered side to side until it broke off. Took about 15 mins for each one. A short hacksaw is essential (as Jon suggested) to get close to the rock.
> I can see a problem with one of the other ones which is in a concave patch of rock, so it will be difficult to hacksaw.
The concave rock ones might be better weakened by the chisel method mentioned previously.
If you cannot get a clean swing to hit the bolt in the snapping off phase, try a short length of bar with flat ends.
Touch this on the bolt and hit it with the hammer, far more accurate.
In reply to Grahame N:
Good job!
If installing expansion bolts I drill deep enough such that they could be hammered in and 'cemented' over once they have served their time. Strange that such a bolt would be glued in too but possible. As other folk said if it is threaded bar then some would look like they have been cut. However you can buy lengths of pre cut/finished bar, this is more expensive though. Cut ends still need some sort of finishing with a file to get the nuts to thread. Threaded bar can sometimes unscrew with mole grips or opposing bolts.
I always use a grinder for cutting if I have use of one, it is a good deal easier and possible to not leave too many marks once you have the hang of it.
Good job!
If installing expansion bolts I drill deep enough such that they could be hammered in and 'cemented' over once they have served their time. Strange that such a bolt would be glued in too but possible. As other folk said if it is threaded bar then some would look like they have been cut. However you can buy lengths of pre cut/finished bar, this is more expensive though. Cut ends still need some sort of finishing with a file to get the nuts to thread. Threaded bar can sometimes unscrew with mole grips or opposing bolts.
I always use a grinder for cutting if I have use of one, it is a good deal easier and possible to not leave too many marks once you have the hang of it.
1
In reply to Grahame N:
Before and after photos now uploaded, here http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=277828
and here http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=277829
> I took before and after photos and tried to upload them but I immediately got an email from UKC saying they might be 'inappropriate' and would have to be referred to the Photo Editor!
Before and after photos now uploaded, here http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=277828
and here http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=277829
6
In reply to Grahame N:
Good job Grahame, from the photos it looks like you've just snapped the stud off with your fingers. You must be strong!
Good job Grahame, from the photos it looks like you've just snapped the stud off with your fingers. You must be strong!
1
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