UKC

Not sure whether people on forums still consider it an issue, but it's certainly an issue at some walls that have a rule or restriction against it, so I thought I'd clear it up for once and for all:

http://fiendophobia.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/climbers-with-tops-off-at-indoor...

Sorry, can't copy and paste the text here as it may contain the occasional rude word.

Hope that helps.

In reply to Fiend:

I couldn't be bothered to read all your waffle, but felt obliged to share my thoughts on the subject with you; you're wrong.

In reply to Fiend:

I'm not sure what your problem is with topless women!?! Everyone do what makes you comfortable I say...

In reply to EddInaBox:

You're not planning to vote Brexit by any chance are you?
Just that you seem to exhibit a spookily similar level of reasoned argument.

In reply to Fiend:

Let me guess Matthew -- a wall told you off for not wearing a shirt?

In reply to Fiend:
Grumpy much? Put your shirt on or, to steal your language, f*ck off. The rules at the wall are decided by the wall. Follow them or go elsewhere.

In reply to Fiend:

When I boulder indoors my balls sweat something rotten. Esp now the AC is clogged up with chalk dust.

Mind if I freeball my way around the gym?

In reply to Fiend:

Ha ha bollocks.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/07/30/article-2181141-144B61CD000005DC-...

Wally

In reply to Fiend:

Excellent rant! Love that touch about climbing better because you're not burdened with a T-shirt - genius!
Bit baffled about the friction thing though, surely you haven't been asked to wear gloves as well?

In reply to Fiend:

It makes me uncomfortable because I want to look but I don't want to be seen looking. What should I do?

In reply to humptydumpty:


Wear mirrored sunglasses, which has the added advantage that when coupled with a beanie* you'll look unbelievably cool.

*On no account are you permitted to wear a top though, that would ruin it!

In reply to Fiend:

tldr? trying to pull *really* hard makes Fiend sweat. A lot.

In reply to Fiend:

I didn't spend all this money on tattoos to walk around with my top on.

I mean, er, something something, friction.

In reply to Fiend:

Gosh, what a properly nasty blog. I do hope i'm never anywhere near you topless and gnashing at any wall, any time, ever.

In a week where Ken W. has passed away & the fabulous Shauna has received honours for her achievements, it's a pity to have stumbled across this.

And I hope language like that isnt' used either at climbing walls of out at the crag/ boulder, where there are other people around.

Yuk.

In reply to Phil Murray:


I have noticed a correlation between having your shirt off and having a hissy fit when you fall off a problem.

In reply to Fiend:

so explain bouldering topless with a beanie hat on? if you're so good at climbing that you are so sensitive to tiny rises in body temperature on your performance then surely the insulating effect of a beanie hat is going to hinder you?

To be honest its a weak argument in your blog. Most of the topless idiots I see are climbing on jugs, and there aren't that many that in my opinion are climbing at such a level that they really need to go topless to hold that crucial sloper. To be honest, the guys that do climb that hard tend to do it with their shirt on. Yup, they're good and wearing a T shirt.

In reply to Fiend:

You don't mention the main reason for taking your top off.

Ego trip/ Showing off

In reply to Fiend:





If you have to take your top off on anything less than 8b, then you're shite.

In reply to BedRock:

Maybe they're just "warming up"? (sic)

In reply to Fiend:

I like to wear a shirt to prevent Nipple related injuries.

Rules are rules. If you don't like it go somewhere else.

(Is this a very elaborate troll?)

In reply to Fiend:

tl;dr

Well actually, too boring and incoherent; dr

In reply to Fiend:

Brilliant!

I've always found people who are offended by the sight of nipples in climbing walls immensely tiresome. I find it much more disgusting that people don't brush the sweaty chalk off the holds, and don't take their climbing shoes off, or wash their hands when going to the toilet. Which I see on a daily basis, at every wall I've ever visited.

People seem to get offended by lots of stuff, it seems, after reading the responses on this thread! No banter at all it seems! I'm glad I live in Glasgow...

In reply to Fiend:

I'm amazed that all the replies to your rant (everyone is entited to a bit of a rant now and again) are so topless averse. I guess times have changed. Climbers are much more PC than 20 years ago.

In reply to Fiend: More importantly what's with the compression socks? Have you no style shame? Would definitely not be seen on the cat from Red Dwarf.

In reply to Smelly Fox:



This, 100 times!!!

I always take my shoes off before a shit (pretty sure everyone does). As for washing your hands before going for a piss - we've all had chalky-cock once, and once is definitely enough!

In reply to MattDTC:

Everyone who likes climbing with their tops off is busy climbing instead of moaning...

In reply to Fiend:

I'm not fussed (but I am bemused) by topless climbers. Yes sometimes it is warm, but this only seems to affect certain people. On the other hand, what you wrote in your blog does disgust me. I really hope you are not like that in real life, it is very unpleasant and does not present you in any kind of good way.

In reply to Fiend:
Potentially the troll of the decade? Even did a blog to back it up. Maybe.

Wally

In reply to gribble:
Are you also bemused by your profile picture?

In reply to MattDTC:


Good.

In reply to Fiend:

Some good life advise being thrown at you here Fiend, take note

In reply to whenry:


Really? Most of the ones I've seen are more likely to be standing around in various poses, perhaps looking into the distance, or pointing at something far away.

In reply to Fiend:

I misread this as a post about top outs at climbing walls...

pretty disappointed...

In reply to Sutok: As long as I'm reading your comment correctly then Stone Nudes is what you want to look up. Think he does men now as well.

In reply to Fiend:

I bought my fist vest at the weekend, because it's so hot/muggy at the local wall. Very nearly went topless last week, but remembered what my hairy body actually looks like, so decided against it... And thank god I did! I would hate to be the one to bring on all this anger...

Chill out everyone, what's the big deal!?!

In reply to Phil Murray:



Did you know Ken Wilson? I suspect this sort of antiestablishment rant would strike a chime with him. A friend of mine once had to throw him out of a wall because he refused to stop leading on slings draped over jugs... He wasn't exactly known for conforming to rules imposed by others, especially newer developments (like bolts).

In reply to Bogwalloper:


He's not been back - so good call on troll

In reply to JJL:


Or he caught pneumonia because he went out without his vest on - his mummy did warn him.

In reply to Fiend:
Given the temperature of the average wall in summer, topless (or sports bras for women) is perfectly reasonable, especially when doing stamina stuff. Using more chalk than is necessary is much more of an issue! I thought the refrain to parents was quite funny but then I'm not a parent myself. By the way, tops off are fine at the two walls I go to here in Birmingham. Never heard anyone complain.

In reply to Fiend:

I thought you actually made a very good point about there being nothing inherently offensive about a shirtless man we accept it pretty much everywhere ...what people object to is the behaviour. But that's like complaining you don't like a dog's fur because it's barking. The problem is the behaviour, not the appearance.

I take my shirt off for a hard try but then put it back on to belay

I've also never heard of shirtless climbing being a problem anywhere so perhaps this is not just a storm in a tea cup but a hypothetical one at that!

In reply to Fiend:

Let's tackle the real issue here - bouldering. Stop poncing around three inches off the floor and go do some real climbing.

In reply to Fiend:

Seems a perfectly reasonable blog post to me. Well said.

In reply to Fiend:
I personally can't see an issue with going topless in a hot wall. After all, everyone goes topless at the beach, or in the baths. Go to park on a hot, sunny day and there are lots of topless people. Why should it be an issue when climbing?

If a wall has a no t-shirt rule, wear the loudest vest possible (4pack of Stella optional).

I did go to a wall which had a no topless rule. It was baking inside. I never went back.

Andy F

In reply to humptydumpty:


And times another 100

Loved it
Cheers
Mark

In reply to Fiend:

If topless is so necessary in an 'athletic training environment' why do gymnasts always (nearly!) wear at least a vest? It doesn't seem to impede Olympic participants...

"why do gymnasts always (nearly!) wear at least a vest? It doesn't seem to impede Olympic participants..."

Errm - to satisfy the sponsors and to identify them to the judges? It's quite normal in competition to have specific rules about attire that do not apply outside competition (climbing included). I believe that swimming, boxing and wrestling are exceptions. For the most part most sporting comp venues (and gyms) have better temperature management than most bouldering venues which tend to be tin boxes devoid of ventilation or effective heating.

I can't see a public decency argument against tops off (tats out). I can see and argument against oikish behaviour but the two are separate issues. Actually I'm unaware of any of the walls I use having a policy against top off so maybe this is a niche problem?

In reply to Monk:

Ha, Fiend as a modern version of Ken! Its all starting to fit: the rants, the ethics and the extreme enthusiasm (its rare I meet climbers that much more obsessive than myself)... I look forward to the coffee table masterpieces classic grot, hard grot and the best extreme grot for a hissy fit.

In reply to Fiend:
Twenty plus paragraphs dedicated to that... you need to get out more

But 10/10 for trolling.

In reply to Fiend: A very good rant and obviously bound to upset many people so I take my shirt of to you sir. What about tops off and beanies on - what's the equation there?

In reply to Phil79:

ffs Fiend is not a trolling where sweat is concerned in the same way Ken wasn't ever trolling about bolts. As for getting out more he may well have climbed more routes than the total of those UKC children disliking him.

In reply to Fiend:
Hahaha awesome rant, and well said.

Slightly perturbed by some of the responses you have got though! Can't believe how prudish some people are on here.
It's human skin, people!

In reply to Offwidth:

I'm hearing " blah,blah it's about sweating " but then why in shitting crikey do so may of these types wear hats indoors with tops off ?

In reply to Offwidth:

It was a slightly tongue in cheek response, but never mind.

Although I stand by my comment, it was definitely the perfect troll for this forum i.e. provocative post, no response from Fiend, light blue touch paper and stand back!

FWIW I don't care what people wear while climbing. I just thought it was amusing that quite a lot of time and effort went onto something which is pretty trivial.

In reply to Fiend:

what get's me is 'tops off and thick heavy trousers on' - you'd be a lot cooler wearing light shorts and a vest/t-shirt.

In reply to Toerag:


86% of climbing performance is looking good, there's no way I'd be cooler in a pair of shorts, not with my chicken legs.

In reply to Siward:


Or indeed tennis players in 40C head in Melbourne, or just about any other athlete.

In reply to Toerag:

Top off, beanie on! Seen it for real! Almost fell off the wall giggling.

In reply to Fiend:

I thought it was an excellent blog, addressing this delicate issue with a sensitivity and lightness of touch of a true diplomat. Concerns were effectively deconstructed and the views of those holding incompatible opinions were treated with due respect, while carefully chosen phraseology ensured little possibility of causing offence.

Well done Fiend. Now that this matter has been effectively and comprehensively cleared up I trust we'll hear no more about it from now on.

In reply to humptydumpty:

Why, are you prone to shitting on your shoes?

In reply to Toerag:


The bleeding obvious answer is that it takes about ten seconds to take a top off/put it on, in public. Trousers are somewhat more time-consuming (and the public sight of underpants truly is taboo). I could mention that all the vital organs are above the waist so feeling hot or cold is concentrated there.

In reply to Smelly Fox:





I cannot wash my hands!!! It'll ruin my skin conditions (said tongue in cheek but occasionally I don't for that reason)

In reply to Phil Murray:





What a tremendously humourless individual you are portraying yourself as. Also one apparently incapable of stringing together a coherent argument - what have Ken's death and Shauna's honours got to do with each other or Fiend's little rant? Sigh.

In reply to Fiend:
I just wear a running vest. If I do excersie topless I get film of sweat on my back which drips onto my shorts or the floor, my vest wicks it off. More pleasant for me and others.

Good rant though.

In reply to Fiend:

I have to go topless because none of my vests match my lycra tights.

In reply to silhouette:


Just change in the changing room then like a normal person and put on some shorts then? Feeling hot or cold is related blood vessel density and local exertion. I.e. your ears feel much hotter than your spleen, so do your thighs more so than your intestine.

For the record, I support the right of people to climb topless, but I think the vast majority don't need to - they just want to (which is fine, but then just say that). Besides, it's probably far better training for most to get used to climbing through heat and a bit of sweat, so that when you do need to perform, you're still able to climb if you start sweating en-route.

In reply to Fiend:

If people are on a genuine climbing work out, say climbing a few grades below their max, staying tied in and repeating the route immediately 3 or 4 times than why not just wear a vest, like most runners and other sports people do? (i'll ignore swimming sports here).

But for boulderers who thrutch about for 20 secs over a few moves then sit on mats chatting and 'rehearsing' for 10+ mins, utterly pointless.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Well surely, good and bad.
I can see that in some ways it's better for the group if individuals are 'group' minded.
But there is a hidden down side to this, and that is if everyone becomes so restricted by the group, then;
1) It all becomes boringly conformist. It all becomes very perscriptive.
2) We become so 'normalised' that great offence is taken when anyone so much as takes one step out of line (like, god forbid taking their top off!).

This thread demonstrates both these points by the bucket load.

In reply to victim of mathematics:


I assumed that the poster was saying that Shauna's honours , and the memories of Ken that have been rekindled by his death are both ennobling things for the mountaineering community. The poster's views on Fiend's blog (which I haven't read, so can't comment on personally) were that it was quite the opposite, and that that was a shame.

Surely not too hard to grasp?

In reply to Fiend:

I sometimes climb topless when the wall is busy. Aged 58 and being somewhat overweight I get sweaty wearing a top and don't mind my 'Moobs' (man boobs) showing.
My climbing partner called 'Flakey' on account of his skin disorder feels the same. He used to wear a beannie, but now has switched to a balaclava to keep his face warm as well.

We tend to get the wall to ourselves.

In reply to Fiend:

If Ned's sweaty back is causing difficulty on that sloper, one would think Ned doesn't know what the f*ck he's doing

In reply to Fiend:

I used to climb topless at my local wall until the press caught this shot of me at a nearby venue. I just didn't realise...
http://media5.picsearch.com/is?ZBTPCqzht7ZxmHn8JCntY7RB6YTIhyUchmcQlwFx1TE&...

In reply to victim of mathematics:

Well, at least you think I'm tremendous. What else you think, I do not care at all.

I think we've all been trolled, but I have no sense of humour, do I, so I doubt I can guage that properly, either.

In reply to Phil Murray:

Gauge!

In reply to Fiend:
Like it or loathe it, a big load of topless blokes at a climbing wall *does* create a not-very-family atmosphere - kind of like an old-style pumping-iron gym, which can feel quite intimidating to a lot of people. Quite a lot of gyms have the same rule for the same reason.

Ideally, walls should invest in good ventilation and aircon to reduce the need for it. Big Rock banned topless climbing ages ago following a few complaints from the family end of things, and there was uproar, but now they have a really good aircon system that genuinely does keep the wall cool I haven't heard anyone bothered about it for ages.

Meanwhile, I never quite got the boulderer-fashion thing of wearing a beanie but no T-shirt. Surely wearing a T-shirt but no beanie would have the same effect.

In reply to MattDTC:

I once met Fiend very briefly when he dropped a hex round at my house for me to buy while I still lived at home, and he seemed peaceable enough, and my Mum thought he was 'a nice boy' (a ringing endorsement from anybody's Mum); I'm wondering if it might be the 'take no prisoners' way he's written about going topless, rather than the issue itself which could have got people irked?

As a child/nearly teenager it never bothered me when first going to The Foundry, but I don't suppose these things are universal, and some might not like it.

In reply to Fiend:

I've just read your rant, on my phone, in the pub, and have removed my top in solidarity.

Je suis gelé!

In reply to Fiend:

its always the fat ones that moan about tops off.
If the wall has a rule then I will abide, but I would look for another wall. I agree about behaviour being the cause of friction, not a couple of nipples. If people are staring at my little pinkies while I train surely that says more about them than me?
I always start with a token vest on even though I know within 2 routes it will be moist and off.
Top of the pops of things more offensive than a topless man at a climbing wall; not showering for days and standing next to me, not being aware of where your route goes, walking under me, not realising that liquid f*cking chalk needs to dry before you smear it all over everything, wild kids left to their own devices, parkour-ers, wanna be gymnasts doing handstands 'because it's a great warm up', people who stare.

In reply to Fiend:

Don't you know taking off your top is worth a grade and growling is worth another grade

In reply to Fiend:

That's what I like about the climbing gym. No bull crap pedantic rules about attire.

It's funny because the climbing gym near me has a weights gym in the same building. A sign in the weights gym states: no jeans, no sandles, only sportswear ect...yet the climbing wall you can wear what you want. Keep it that way I say!

Let's face it though as others have said, a vest and shorts will keep you cooler than no top and prana trousers. It's pure and utter posing and you know it!

Tops off when the sun is out though...sunz out gunz out

In reply to Oogachooga:

I wear shorts and no top and still sweat through my chalk bag while doing PE trainings. Adding a vest would not make me cooler. Adding trousers would stop my knees looking like a 2 year olds with an inner ear problem. I see the logic in trousers, no top.

In reply to springfall2008:

Tops off and power screams make you realise how close we are to Neanderthals.

Al

In reply to Fiend:

Out of the 6 walls I climb at only 1 has a shirts-on policy, and that's because it is within a leisure centre and the centre have dictated that the climbers must wear shirts. Shame as it is literally the hottest out of the 6. Big glass walls so it is effectively a greenhouse.

Couldn't agree more, why do topless bodies make somebody uncomfortable? 95% of the time I climb indoors without a shirt on unless it's winter, as it is just too hot otherwise. I've never had anybody give me a strange look or complain in any way.

As for all the swearing...it's 2016, don't people have better things to be offended by? =P

In reply to jsmcfarland:


I think you need a bit of an empathy/consideration implant there I'm afraid to say. It doesn't offend me but the fact that some people are offended dissuades me from doing it. The problem is it's not nice in front of kids and the more it becomes the norm the more that is likely to happen. As it does.

Al

In reply to Fiend:

I found the first bit of swearing somewhat aggressive but more humorous lower down.

But I think the main point you're making is spot on. I think it should become normal to be topless at a hot wall the same way it is normal to be topless on a beach. In really hot summers it can be fairly common for guys to go topless in the streets. Very bizarre that if like that you then might have to put a top on just when you're about to start some hard exercise.

I've always found the climbing community pretty liberal in it's views so I can only assume those who complain are a very small minority. But I guess if they're vociferous and whinge enough the wall managers may feel some pressure to do something about it and cave in to demands. Maybe some complaints and whinging from the other side is needed to counteract?

In reply to Fiend:

I like boobies. Especially at the wall.

Can i have some upvotes?

In reply to silhouette:


Yeah, I reckon it can take up to 30 seconds to change trousers for a pair of shorts.



S&*t!! No one told me. This means I've been offending people at climbing walls for about 30 years now. But everyone's been too polite to say anything.

In reply to Fiend:

While we are on topic, is being noisy at a climbing wall rude? My friend was once told my a woman climber that he was being too noisy on belay when he was shouting up to me....

In reply to GridNorth:


Al, I plead guilty to all three. (But you probably guessed that.)

Mick

In reply to Fiend:

So how do you explain people climbing without shirts whilst wearing beanie hats?

In reply to GridNorth:

"Just because you're offended, doesn't make you right". Einstein (probably)

They are just sounds coming from a mouth. It's the meaning behind them that has potential to offend. If there is no malice or directed negative intention then the sound of me saying cock, is just a variation of my humming. (I tried to use the other c word but I was censured, ironic as there was no directed intention to offend and this it was just a combination of letters to make a sound)

In reply to BarrySW19:

Firstly, I very rarely see this indoors, if at all. Secondly, have you never gone hiking in just a base layer with your hat on? Same difference. The hats there to take the nip off your ears but you've stripped to the bare minimum on your torso to dump heat and avoid sweating.

In reply to Fiend:

Definite troll as he's not been back. Bottom line, who cares about tops on or off. Also it's good when people shout and grunt - it means they're trying properly.

In reply to GridNorth:
in my case a fat one

In reply to LakesWinter:

Why would he need to be 'back' ? Think he discussed everything thoroughly in his blog =P

Also agree about 'try hard' noises. I had a study bookmarked but it seems to have dissapeared from chrome. Anyway it said something along the lines of.. 'Subjects produced more force with loud vocalisations than subjects who breathed loudly, who produced more force than subjects who didn't make any noise'. The numbers were quite impressive too, in the double digit %'s

In reply to Fiend:

I was out doing sporty leisure stuff in public the other day. Adults and children were there, families etc. My nipples were on display and I didn't care how offended anyone was.

In reply to silhouette:


Depends what you call a vital organ... I mean, climbing is all about footwork, that's pretty vital.

Great thread with much hilarity, thanks everyone.

In reply to summo:
Vests, now that's just wrong. Reminds me of stuff I had to wear in school PE lessons. Each to their own though. Not as bad as lycra leggings on blokes though.

In reply to Fiend:

As a post-thrombiotic syndrome suffering (in 1 leg), compression stocking-wearing climber I sympathize with the leggy part of your climbing experience monsieur fiend.

In reply to EddInaBox: (and John Arran)

You're not planning to vote Remain by any chance are you?
Just that you seem to exhibit a spookily similar level of reasoned argument.

In reply to Fiend:

Freaking magnificent rant. Bring it on!!

In reply to Chris_Mellor:






Yawn.

In reply to Smelly Fox:

Oh, f**king hilarious!!!

In reply to stp:


It isn't really the climbing community, it's more the other customers, particularly kids' parties and the likes, which we shouldn't disregard as the large sums of money they pay keep our rather cheaper membership costs down.

In reply to mark_wellin:


I have probably done this but never walked or climbed topless but with a hat on. Just makes no sense at all!

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Maybe you just aren't trying hard enough?

In reply to Michael Gordon:
hat keeps the sun off, even if it's a beanie

In reply to Fiend:

People can obviously climb harder with there tops off. That is simply science. No climbing walls have any kind of ventilation that I've seen and turn into a sweatbox all summer. The only people that seem to enforce these rules are staff who can't climb/don't have a good enough body to expose. Free speech, free the guns.

In reply to mark_wellin:


In that case you are a dimwitted thoughtless arsehole with no consideration for the feelings of others. Not meaning to offend, it's just a combination of letters to make a sound.

I'm honestly not being nasty just trying to illustrate the lack of logic of your position.

In reply to andy33:


Exactly, wasn't it Einstein who stated 'Tops off for power'?
I think that's pretty definitive.

In reply to Misha:


Ok, let's be all modern and call them singlets, same thing different word, a sleeveless top.

Lycra leggings for indoor climbing I would agree they have no place, running outdoors though they are near essential because of cold in winter, or midges/mossies/under growth in summer.

In reply to andy33:


so do the topless wear long trousers/long shorts in order not to expose spindly legs?

In reply to MeMeMe:


If I remember GCSE physics correctly, P = W/t, or Power = Waddage / top.

In reply to Ramblin dave:
f=ma
force = machismo x attitude

edit: that explains why I've never been strong!

In reply to andy33:


The science, if there is any, is psycology. I don't think there is any scientific basis for saying body heat regulation with modern technical fabrics is worse than without. Problem is climbers use jeans and cotton T shirts which are crap.

In reply to Ramblin dave:


Well, no top would be a division by zero, which gives a meaningless or undefined result, so I'm afraid your no top theory is invalid.

In reply to mememe :


...it was, immediately before publication of his theory of "something something friction", as has already been referenced.

but back in the 1930s how was he to have anticipated the development of the wolf t-shirt? And this hasn't been covered yet. Wearing a shirt which depicts three wolves howling at the moon actually results in more power than can be used, the wearer would simply pull the holds straight off the wall. So of course you have to take it off to climb.

The sticky issue of where this leaves Ron Hills, I'll leave others to deal with...

In reply to andy33:


By that logic you must be itching to climb naked with your wang duct-taped out of the way, and finally do that 9a you couldn't do otherwise?

In for a penny in for a pound?

In reply to GridNorth:

You just proved my point though. You've used bad language in a pointed way and thus I could rightly be offended. If however, I were to use a swear word as a f*cking good adverb there is no difference between it and another similar word, other than the sounds and your perceived notions of social unacceptable-ness.
Language changes. Swear words are now just words. In a few years time we'll all talk in emojis only, anyway

One thing that is concerning is the amount of people I've seen working 5a boulders topless with Solutions on. It not pretty or exciting. Its an Epidemic.

The 7a(sport) / V5 unwritten rule for shirtlessness maintains a fair balance.

In reply to mark_wellin:
If someone in your presence is offended by your bad language you should stop using it. It's nothing to do with the evolution of language or perceived notions of unacceptable-ness its simply thoughtless behaviour with no consideration for others. End of story.


Al

In reply to GridNorth:



No Al. Tops off and power screams make you realise how close you are to wannabes

In reply to SenzuBean:


One of those cases where both logic and instinct align perfectly!

In reply to Fiend:

This cannot be separated from wider social conventions. These may not be entirely logical, and which parts of the body can respectably be uncovered varies over time, but they are broadly understood. If everyone did exactly as they pleased with no regard to anyone else, life in a crowded society would become intolerable. Social conventions enable us all to get along together.

As a rule, it is expected that someone will wear a top while in a public place. Even if you have an impressive physique, the rest of us don't want to be reminded of our own inadequacies, and anyway we don't want to be sprayed with your sweat or smell your BO. Clothes provide some protection against both visual and physical offence.

Of course there are exceptions, the most obvious being at a swimming pool or beach (although swimwear hasn't always been skimpy). It may just about be acceptable while sunbathing in a park, but the shirt should go back on as soon as you get up. Men involved in heavy physical labour may also be excused, although they are expected to put on a shirt once they leave the site.

It is true that some men, young men in particular, may go shirtless in the street on sunny days, but this is questionable behaviour and may be seen as a bit chavvy. It is very likely they will be refused entry to shops and bars unless they put a top on.

If there were a general consensus among indoor climbers that going topless is necessary and acceptable then everyone would want to do so, and walls would become one of those places, like swimming pools, where this is normal and unremarkable behaviour. However there is clearly no such consensus, in fact most seem to regard the reasons put forward for doing so as trivial and unconvincing, and (rightly or wrongly) believe that the real reason is simply showing off. As long as the majority of people regard it as unnecessary and inappropriate, climbers should respect that and keep their tops on. It shouldn't really need the wall to make rules against it.

In reply to Howard J:

Social conventions are there to be broken surely?
For the better or worse, how else does society change?

Should I take my top off at the wall tonight?
Votes for yes or no please (like or dislike), I'm willing to do whatever the majority vote for although frankly I'm not keen to take it off, I'm usually the one still in a down jacket and fleecy trousers when everyone else is in shorts and t-shirt.

In reply to Howard J:

I bet you're a laugh a minute at parties!

In reply to johnjohn:



No, you are confusing him with that well known trad climber, Niels Bohr.

In reply to GridNorth:

I'll say it again. Just because you're offended doesn't make you right.
I use swear words all the time, just because you choose to be offended and I don't doesn't make you right and me wrong. Social conventions come and go. It wasn't ok to be gay 100 years ago, now we're all cool with it. Swearing, exposed flesh and other social taboos are all pushed and eventually fall to the wayside. These thing don't actually affect anyone, just as being gay or black or topless doesn't affect anyone else.

In reply to mark_wellin:

I'm afraid you may be right and I'm fighting a lost cause but society is the worse for it.

In reply to Fiend:

All seems perfectly reasonable to me.

In reply to GridNorth:

Without wanting to seem provocative, this being a genuine question, why do you see that as being to the detriment of society?

More freedom to be and do what you want is only ever a positive in my mind. Arbitrary rules for the sake of legacy are ridiculous.
I'm sure the people in the 20's were outraged at the invention of the bikini. Now no one bats an eye, is this really making society worse, because women don't feel pressured to cover every inch of skin? For no other reason than it used to make other women feint and men huff loudly into their pipes?

In reply to mark_wellin:



Spoken with the true arrogance of youth.

We all have much to learn from you.

In reply to Goucho:

Said with the certainty and condescension of old age. (I have no idea how old you are, you just sound like an old codger)
We've learnt a lot from you and moved past it.

In reply to mark_wellin:



Have you ever heard that saying about presumption?

In reply to Goucho:

Nope. Sounds interesting....

In reply to Fiend:

If I didn't have a generous helping of man boobs and an even more generous extra helping around the middle I would go topless.

In reply to mark_wellin:



You couldn't be more wrong. Much of the world does not share your values. Your conception of "no one" is woefully limited.

In reply to Dogwatch:
Sorry, should have caveat'd with 'in this country'... And if you're honestly going to tell me you and the majority of the people you know are offended by women in bikinis then it's not me who is out of touch.
I am finding this very interesting and quite remarkable. I didn't realise there was still this sense of social conformity and sensibility around mundane and inoffensive things like a woman's midrif or a couple of man-nipples in any great amount, in any social group. Let alone the climbing family who have often been at the fore front of liberalism and counter culture.
Edit- the caveat shouldn't have been necessary. It's obvious were discussing social norms in this (or similar) cultures/ countries. I'm not going to Iran and bouldering the grand palace with my nerps out.

In reply to mark_wellin:


You'd still be very wrong. You appear to be in a happy bubble where you assume everyone is just like you and your friends.

And I didn't say I was offended. I've said nothing at all about my own opinions.

In reply to Dogwatch:
Yes but surely you can't argue that bikinis are offensive in a western society? Ever been to a French beach, particularly on the Côte d'Azur, where it's perfectly acceptable for a woman of any adult age to be topless, from the 18 year old to the 80 year old.

In reply to Dogwatch:

What are you even talking about? You're arguing for the sake of arguing now.
Our society has no problem with bikinis. That's a stone cold fact. It's not my bubble. You simply don't get people heckling women on the beach.
Even the more conservative amongst us don't have issue. There's a large Orthodox Jew population in Bournemouth. You often see them walking along the prom at the height of summer amongst all the naked flesh. And while I can't imagine they would join them, or indeed wish their kin to be seen in the same state, they clearly aren't offended by its mere presence or the fact that others don't share there love of long black coats.

In reply to Howard J:


But do they? Out of a hundred posts there are a lot of people who regard it as unnecessary, but possibly only two that could possibly be read as suggesting that it's inappropriate and I'm not even sure they go that far. That doesn't sound like a majority regarding it as inappropriate, and surely what is relevant here is the majority of climbing wall users.

In reply to Misha:

They are offensive to a growing number of people who live in western society. Anyone who hasn't noticed that trend must have been living at the bottom of a well. It's interesting that mark_wellin, who is parading his right-on credentials, is entirely happy to disregard those who think otherwise. But there is an interesting question, which is to what extent should a liberal society tolerate those who are not tolerant.

I'm personally not offended by human flesh but many others are and it is arrogant and selfish to refuse to take that into account in a public place.

In reply to Dogwatch:

You're living in a different world mate. There's is no movement within western society that is reversing decades of liberalisation. Its the complete opposite. Immigration and globalisation might be introducing those that would historically have different views, but the majority intergrate and adapt to the new status quo (as pointed out by the example in my previous post).

Putting aside the fact that you seem to live several decades earlier than I do (where geographically do you live, out of curiosity?) it is interesting as to where the line should be placed between offender and offendee, tolerant and not tolerant. History has shown that the line eventually migrates towards those just doing their thing, not hurting anyone and leaves those that get red faced and huffy about things that really don't concern them in the past.

In reply to mark_wellin:

Because it would be a society where arrogance and thoughtless prevailed.

I am resisting the temptation to say youth of today because I know it's not but its people like you who make the older generation think like that.

In reply to GridNorth:

arrogence and thoughtlessness? I'm very thoughtful in my reasoning behind not being bothered by certain social constructs. Why is it arrogant to state that things that don't affect you aren't your business? I've given examples of This happening, such as the fact that being gay was once taboo, now, a lot of people realise that what men do in their personal life in no way affects them so seeing them hold hands in public isn't an issue. Just as women wearing bikinis, just as swearing. It's only in your mind and your social conditioning that has made you think you should get upset, when in actuality they are just sounds. Likewise with nipples. They're just skin.

In reply to mark_wellin:


Donald Trump, Marine Le Pen, just for two.

I'm not sure I remember a time when the process of liberalisation hasn't been under more threat of reversal.

I might have more to say on Monday when the referendum campaign resumes.

Martin

In reply to Dogwatch:
Just to be clear, we're talking about bikinis / shorts now, obviously in an appropriate place such as a beach. I agree some people (i.e. religious conservatives of various creeds) might not like it but are you saying people should therefore cover up on a beach? That's a ridiculous position if that's what you're suggesting but apologies if I have misunderstood. There are various accepted norms in our society and wearing beach wear on a beach or similar is one of them. Anyone who has a problem with that should just stay away from places where people might be dressed in that way. It's their problem, not society's problem.

I'm all for respecting other people's views but the majority of people should not have to change their social norms when it's to do with something which is not actually detrimental to other people. So for example homophobia used to be much more widespread (and indeed homosexuality used to be illegal) but that was actually discriminatory and detrimental to homosexual people. However social norms (and the law of the land) have now moved on and our country is a better place as a result. That's a case of protecting minority rights. Now some people (incidentally some of the same people who still have an issue with homosexuals even in his day and age) might dislike beach wear. It's hardly in the same category, is it? They aren't exactly a persecuted minority which needs protecting. They're just people with a different view. Which is obviously fine but why should the majority of the population change their social norms because of it?

Anyway, back on topic. I appreciate that some people might not like bare torsos or indeed sports bras at a climbing wall or indeed at a crag but I've never been asked to put a t shirt on (it stays on most of the time anyway but sometimes it's just too hot). That's not to say that it doesn't happen. I'm not sure there's a social norm about it either way.

In reply to Martin Hore:

Hmm. Big picture you may be right. no matter who comes to power I can't see then introducing new rules about minor things; levels of skin on show, men's nipples, swearing etc

In reply to Fiend:

I don't give a f*ck or not if people climb with shirts on or off at climbing walls. But that blog post makes you sound like an utter arse.

In reply to jonathan shepherd:

Surely it's only a problem if you shit on the soles of your shoes, and that would take a special effort.

In reply to Fiend:
People take their tops off at indoor walls because they are virgins.

In reply to Fiend:
Just read the blog post (having read the thread first) expecting some sort of uncharacteristically hysterical rant to have provoked some of the responses. It's actually a well reasoned and entertaining piece. There really are some strange types on here.

In reply to mark_wellin:

It's only in your mind and your social conditioning that has made you think you should get upset, when in actuality they are just sounds. Likewise with nipples. They're just skin.

No, it's using your judgement as a human being to adjust your behaviour to suit your surroundings.
Where the situation allows it, by all means swear and go naked. However, there are obviously situations where that would be inappropriate.
In the case of the OP, the wall has decided that they want males to cover up. It's their business and therefore their rules that you have to abide to. At the end of the day, the wall is there to make money and if they think that topless males are having an impact on that, then what else do you think they should do?

In reply to Dogwatch:



Bracknell's certainly a bit of a dump, but I don't think it's at the bottom of a well!?! Who are these growing number of people you speak of? What's the demographic? I can't say I've ever heard of anyone complaining about women in bikini's, especially fit women in bikini's!

I'm not surprised the OP hasn't been back, this thread has spiralled into complete and utter madness!

In reply to Robert Durran:

I couldn't agree more. But then again, this is the world we live in. It's always the arse holes that are more vocal with their opinions and drive the politics. The agnostics are a victim of their own behaviour. I find it quite funny anyway, and try to ignore it

In reply to FactorXXX:

If our ancestors had insisted that I do a chicken dance before entering a building, everyone would blindly follow, as is the way with society. Some businesses may not allow me in unless I follow suit. And that's their prerogative and I simply wouldn't frequent their establishment. However, me not conforming to this construct isnt fundamentally hurting or affecting anyone else, other than their perceived sensibilities. People would get all het up whenever they saw me just walk into a building, while they stood there flapping their imaginary wings and scratching their feet. Those immersed in the chicken dancing would think it outrageous that I wouldn't consider their feelings before I did what I want. They would get offended and say I was young and arrogant for ignoring their feelings. They wouldn't understand that do the chicken, or don't do the chicken, either way it doesn't affect anyone else other than yourself.
My nipples only offend because you think they should offend. Likewise having a cocking good swear.
I've said it three times now; just because you're offended doesn't make you right.

Now if I were in the habit of grabbing your arse every time you climbed a route, you could justifiably get pissed because, well that's your arse! Grabbing my own arse would be fine. Strange, but fine.

I don't think it is the naked flesh or nipples that offends people, it is the ape like, self indulgent act of trying to prove your masculinity that annoys me. As if somehow you can't climb hard without sweating? Let's be honest- if a person is trying to show everyone how large their peanuts are by not wearing a shirt then they obviously have an inferiority complex and probably drive a corsa with a stupid exhaust. If your so worried about sweat marks then take a spare t-shirt.

Climbing with your shirt off is fine- showing off with your shirt off deserves punishment. Sadly we all take part in a sport which attract helmets.

Such is life.

In reply to Fiend:

Think we've descended to the usual "You're doing something different to me! You're an idiot!" which seems to be the natural resting place of threads here. Hey ho.

Doing things different is how we have evolved past being chimps. Sadly there are still some chimps around.

In reply to Davecapewell:

I think you are paying too much attention to what other people do, when I climb indoors I'm more interested in my own routes and wouldn't notice too much what others are wearing....

In reply to Davecapewell:

"Something something, resort to insults, something something, nothing intelligent to say"

In reply to mark_wellin:
I'm commenting on nondescript, unnamed people from a wall I occasionally frequent. You however are trying to insult me.

Haters gonna hate.

In reply to Davecapewell:

"Something something, backtrack, something something"

In reply to mark_wellin:

xxx

In reply to Fiend:

Just to add another dimension - tops off is better for the environment :p

I'm only half-kidding. I climb multiple times a week at an _incredibly_ sweaty wall with extremely poor ventilation. My t-shirt would quickly be dripping in sweat. I'd end up having to do way more washing if I had to keep my top on all the time. And my skin would get even more screwed for the weekend - more sweating=softer skin.

And yes, we've asked for better ventilation dozens of times. Instead, in the well-ventilated part of the wall we got a heavily featured lead wall straight out of the 90s with a random ankle annihilating belay ledge 1/3rd of the way up and a 6' high top-out boulder.

In reply to mark_wellin:

My nipples only offend because you think they should offend. Likewise having a cocking good swear.

You must make an interesting guest at weddings and funerals...


I've said it three times now; just because you're offended doesn't make you right.

I climb topless myself and swear like a trooper if I'm in situations where it's acceptable.
However, if I went to a wall and they asked me to put a top on, I would. Likewise, if there's something like a kids climbing party going, I'd restrain my language. I call that common sense in that I approach each situation differently.


If our ancestors had insisted that I do a chicken dance before entering a building, everyone would blindly follow, as is the way with society. Some businesses may not allow me in unless I follow suit.
Now if I were in the habit of grabbing your arse every time you climbed a route, you could justifiably get pissed because, well that's your arse! Grabbing my own arse would be fine. Strange, but fine.

Tenuous and dodgy analogy alert!!!

In reply to Davecapewell:


By inventing clothes for a start.

In reply to FactorXXX:

I thought I was quite a good analogy. Why do you think it falls short of the mark?

I don't think anyone has actually put forward a reason (valid or not) or even attempted to rationalise why exactly they (or 'people') are offended by skin or words. Other than 'because people are different'.
If we accept the 'different' argument then actually it's that offendees that are imposing themselves with no grounds on those who happen to be different.

Why are you specifically offended by my nipples (honestly, they're lovely) and certain words?

In reply to mark_wellin:

Why are you specifically offended by my nipples (honestly, they're lovely) and certain words?

If you read my reply to you, you'll see that I too climb topless and swear, so I'm hardly likely to be offended by yours.
You'll also read, that I moderate /change my behaviour to suit different situations. Is that too much to ask for?
I assume that you wouldn't turn up topless to a funeral and start swearing at the rest of the mourners?

In reply to FactorXXX:

So you don't have a reason? (I was probably meaning to reply to the thread as a whole rather than you specifically).

Of course I adapt my behaviour to a situation, were debating to what extent and in which situations that adaptation is appropriate. You seem to be arguing from the side that nipples in public, innocuous and non-sexualised, still offend certain groups of people and that people should pander to this. I'm asking if there is reasoning behind their revulsion. If there isn't, other than 'they just don't like it', then that is really no reason at all and I am justified in ignoring that construct.
Hopefully this analogy will be deemed more appropriate; smoking. Smoking was allowed inside. Some people hated that, others didn't mind. The haters won out because there was a clear and definite reasoning behind their hatred (health issue, it directly affected them). Now, people smoke outside and (hopefully) away from those that don't like it. Ignoring the possibilities of people smoking too close to a door/ kids etc, those smokers are now perfectly right in to tell the haters to f*ck off if they continue to moan about the smoking because it no longer directly affects them, they simply 'don't like the idea of it'.

In reply to mark_wellin:

Of course I adapt my behaviour to a situation, were debating to what extent and in which situations that adaptation is appropriate. You seem to be arguing from the side that nipples in public, innocuous and non-sexualised, still offend certain groups of people and that people should pander to this. I'm asking if there is reasoning behind their revulsion. If there isn't, other than 'they just don't like it', then that is really no reason at all and I am justified in ignoring that construct.

You adapt your behaviour when you see fit i.e. you recognise that are situations where going topless is not acceptable.
In this case, the wall has decided from a business perspective, to make the decision not to allow topless climbing.
Therefore, all that's different, is that the walls interpretation of where topless climbing is acceptable is different to yours. I don't know why some people find it unacceptable, maybe ask them and not me?
The crux of the matter is, the wall thinks it makes more money by having that policy and as it's a business, that is the decision that is theirs to make. If you don't like the policy, climb elsewhere...

In reply to Fiend:

I promised myself I wouldn't post on this thread, but I have no self-control in certain aspects of my behaviour. Perhaps some people can identify with that.

Fact is, as has been said, the wall owner makes a rule and gives you a choice. Their decision to lay down that choice for you is entirely fair; and your views, however persuasively put, are not going to make much of an impact.

I've climbed at walls with a big "we are V9 crushing bouldering boys with our shirts off" element, and a smaller, friendly bouldering wall with both good problems and decent training stuff plus short top-roping mainly used for kids parties. This latter wall had a shirts-on policy, because that's a small part of the atmosphere they wanted at their wall. They probably (deliberately) sacrificed some custom in the area from folk wanting a more hardcore bouldering/training wall in favour of the family and beginners' attraction. I doubt the shirt on/off policy was make-or-break for many people, but the whole set-up would appeal to some but not to others. Because it was a good wall with well-set problems (in a different style to the alternatives), the hardcore guys turned up quite frequently, and kept their shirts on. They didn't seem find it much of an obstacle, they still turned up regularly (setting problems there too), and it seemed to me, everyone got on fine. I didn't see any pain or anguish caused by the sign asking people not to climb shirtless.

Both ways work fine, and it's entirely up to the people who run the business how they choose to do so.

I don't believe anyone is "offended" by blokes bouldering topless. But I do believe some people are intimidated or put off by it. I can definitely see how a wall owner might want their venue to feel as close as possible to Jerry Moffatt training for 8c+; while another would want to make their wall feel like somewhere mum and dad can have a nice coffee and a slice of wallnut cake while their kids have fun with their friends under the supervision of competent instructors. There's a tiny wisp of conflict between these two ends of the market and a wall owner might try to strike a balance between the two with a shirts-on policy for the Ben-and-Jerry customers. No one is any place to tell them they are wrong to do so. If they don't like it, they can always f*ck off, that's business. A wall where there aren't lots of muscly guys with their shirts-off might make it seem friendlier to beginners - and that might be more of a priority for the wall owner than some infinitesimal increase in likelihood of an experienced boulderer sending their problem with a bit less chalk.

Assigning any single motivation to a whole load of unspecified people doing something (here, climbing shirtless) is de facto bullshit. Some people might climb shirtless for technical reasons to improve friction. Quite how they manage to care so much about an indoor problem escapes me, but that's neither here nor there. Others may want to exhibit a physique they're proud of. You don't know, I don't know, because we're not talking about a specific person. I suspect that the majority of people climbing shirtless do so because their mates do, and they look pretty good so they feel comfortable in public with their torso on show. I could be wrong, I don't have a direct line to their innermost thoughts (or the thoughts of some mythical average of all the people concerned). If I did a survey of them, they'd probably spin some crap about friction, and that would probably be the least reliable way to get a handle on their motivation, but this point is academic (or philosophical).

You've got your motivations; other shirtless boulderers have their own, none of which matter. The wall owner is calling the shots, probably for entirely rational reasons based on the feedback from customers, be that implicit or explicit.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Nail, on, head, the, hit, the.

Well done sir

JW

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I understand the business cases for the a tops on policy, and have said I always abide and then try to find somewhere else to climb. The confusion and opposing arguments are stemming from why 'joe public' is offended or simply 'doesn't like' nipples out (or swearing, that got added into the mix). There doesn't seem to be an actual reason for this offence/ dislike (however you would like to characterise them moaning) that anyone can put forward? PLEASE SOMEONE IM GENUINELY INTERESTED.
While I appreciate your post gets to the heart of some of the argument, it simply doesn't address the conflict between people that see no problem with tops off, and those guys, such as on this thread that clearly hate it.
Just as you can sneer and say anyone with their tops off is a poser and only doing it for some vein reason and perceived glory of having their ripped physique on show. The opposite could be said, that those with that view are sexualising other men's bodies, clearly uncomfortable with their own and/ or confused about their feelings Towards half naked men. Etc.
My point has always been, that the de facto stance with this, and any issue of one group wanting to do somethings that doesn't have a direct affect on another group, is that they should be allowed to do it, because being offended isn't a reason not to do something.

As for everyone that keeps going on about 'it doesn't make that much difference' and 'nobody sweats that much'. What are
You talking about?! I climbed yesterday and was drenched in seconds. I had no top and shorts on. The guy next to me was in a long sleeve and jeans, he was fine. Clearly he didn't need his top off, but I did. Would you rather I smear an inch of chalk paste on every other hold the whole way up the route, or suffer a nipple?

In reply to mark_wellin:

I completely understand what you're getting at but I think the thread lost a lot of credibility when swearing was confounded with tops off. Swearing is acknowledged widely across society as being offensive, although tolerated in many situations. Tops off simply isn't widely acknowledged in Europe as being offensive, otherwise we wouldn't see it on beaches, in swimming pools, in parks and around town in summer. Tops off in climbing walls therefore falls into the category of dress code. Why there should be a dress code restriction that actually impedes the activity you're there for is another matter, and one that Jon makes a very good case for in some situations. Nobody has yet provided any substantive case for such a dress code restriction being reasonable in the majority of walls.

In reply to john arran:

Agreed (although swearing definitely is making its way to the non offensive arena. Clarkson often said 'cock' on top gear. That wouldn't have happened 20 years ago, for example)

In reply to john arran:

Wow. That's surely the best, sober summary of the issues that we've seen so far in this thread.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Might be a bit crunchy that.

In reply to john arran:
I'm not sure swearing is widely considered to be offensive. Certain swearing, in certain contexts is. Other swearing that's not generally considered to offensive, can still makes people feel uncomfortable - but again, in certain contexts. My boss at work doesn't like it when I say some piece of work is 'a bit shit', she's not offended though. And I think this is the key with tops off climbing - no one (or a very, very small minority) is offended by men with their tops off per se, but it might make some people feel uncomfortable or just less comfortable in some situations.

Is a climbing wall one of these situations? Utlimately the only way to know is to ask people, but the fact that it's a matter for debate suggests it probably does make some people feel less comfortable. Why might that be? I think it's probably to do with making a wall seem more like a place for 'proper' climbers than for beginners etc. It's a bit like how some gyms attract proper weight lifters and other's attract people just trying keep fit-ish. People feel comfortable in environments where they seem more like the other people.

I'd also note that at the beach and at the swimming pool, everyone has their top off.

(And I think people should be alllowed to climb with their tops off)

In reply to mark_wellin:

I think that issue isn't actually about seeing someone's torso, but something slightly different. I've never actually been to a gym so I don't know how that works, but presumably there's something analogous: some people there are hardcore bodybuilders lifting heavy weights, others are fatties trying to shed a few pounds. Do you get the cardio machines and stuff that beginners use in the middle of where massive bodybuilders are bench pressing huge weights? Or would that be seen as inappropriate (and in fact, would render that machine totally useless as the people who wanted to use it wouldn't go anywhere near it if they were surrounded by the bodybuilders)? Does the gym owner (in a gym that caters for both) have to find a way to get these different client groups to both feel welcome by setting things out so they happily co-exist? Might dress code be part of that?

At a bouldering wall, you have V0s in amongst the V9s, and if there's a bunch of muscly 20-year old lads all trying one problem, no beginner is likely to get in amongst them and be watched falling off the V0. It just doesn't feel like fun. The wall owner can't do much about this, but they can take the edge off the intimidating atmosphere by asking the v9 boys to put some clothes on. It makes it slightly less obvious who's a big group of V9 lads, and who's an average punter or beginner, and that makes for a more welcoming atmosphere.

I think this is the issue: *groups* of lads creating an atmosphere that's intimidating for others, not the sight of mens' nipples.



I'm trying to explain that while an individual taking their shirt off makes no difference, a wall which has groups of shirtless lads monopolising bits of the wall isn't good for business at some walls because it makes for an intimidating, macho atmosphere that puts other people off.

While you can sneer at people who are intimidated by it and put it down to suppressed (or otherwise) homosexuality, as I said before, who cares? The reasons people take their shirts off or, conversely, would prefer others to keep theirs on are inside people's heads and we can't really know. No one is going to admit to the less flattering reasons why they do stuff, because it makes them look like a tw*t.


The question is: any difference between topless and wearing a vest? Very little if any, that's why vests exist.

In reply to john arran:

We only see it in those contexts. If you go indoors into a shop, you put your shirt on, that's the dress code. It's considered rude not to.


Clearly, given the different views, a climbing wall is a context that sits on the very cusp being a swimming pool-like, or the shop-like environment. Because there's no consensus, the wall owner makes a choice about it. Either choice is valid, since it's on the cusp.


It isn't restrictive, you can wear a vest. Some people prefer the atmosphere in the wall when people are covered up. What's wrong with that?

Edit: this is doesn't form a 'substantive case for the majority of walls'. It provides a valid reason a given wall would have such a dress code. Each owner can make a valid choice: another might say that a shirts-on policy would alienate those who are used to climbing shirtless and don't like or don't own vests and is therefore not a good idea.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

86% difference (made up statistic) between tops off and vest. Surely you know how uncomfortable wearing a soggy tee is, how unbreathable wet material is, how it doesn't move properly against your skin etc.

Being selfish I wish it were the case sometimes that beginners were too intimidated to get amongst the *better* climbers. But I can't tell you the amount of times a beginner will jump in front of the queue, smear the start holds of a route obviously above their standard with not-yet-dried liquid chalk and climb under someone already on the wall. Intimidation doesn't seem to be an issue where I climb.
But I'm definitely not topless to intentionally or otherwise keep people away.
Interesting that everyone is relying on this argument now, considering I should imagine everyone that has an issue, and has posted here actually isn't a beginner, knows the climbing scene pretty well and is aware enough to know that 99% of people at a wall are lovely and friendly regardless of there clothing, or lackthereof.

In reply to mark_wellin:


I don't go indoor bouldering when it's sweaty, it's disgusting. I go out onto the limestone or on the outdoor boulder in the park.


??

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Spot on. I don't think it even needs to be groups though. Some walls feel like places for 'proper' climbers. Others feel more accessible to beginners, punters. Lot of different things go into making a wall fell more accessible, and the absence of topless climers is probably one of them.

In reply to Jon Stewart:
Not all of us are fortunate to have the option to go outside. But I'm glad you don't have to be inside.

My point was, if I were selfishly minded I would try and intimidate them becaus they do the following things, but I don't, so they continue.

In reply to mark_wellin:


But maybe they remeber being a beginner. When you start, particualrly if you're not being taken by someone that climbs, walls can be a bit intimidating. Particualrly bouldering walls for some reason, and some are more intimidating than others....

In reply to Donald82:

That doesn't explain why they seem personally against freeing the nips, but I take your point.

In reply to mark_wellin:
I don't think they do seem personally against it, they just see that it might bother others and are againat it for that reason. Or possibly more against the strongly pro taps aff people not seeing that it might bother others.

Personally I reckon if people want to take their tops off, let them. But I'm pretty sceptical of people saying it makes much difference to their climbing. People take their tops off either because it feels nice or because they're showing off. And fair playt to them in either circumstance.

In reply to mark_wellin: You are taking a very "western" viewpoint. Culturally, it's generally ok for us blokes in the west to get our tops off when swimming, sunbathing, doing activities in certain sports situations. But it's not ok in other cultures - being provocative here with an extreme example but I suspect you wouldn't want to free the nips if you were in Taliban controlled territory.

Now you may go back to the what's the reason for that? and I suspect that most cultures that don't like exposure have a logical chain of reasons. Whether those reasons still apply in a western culture is debatable - diversity and all that area. I would say that walking down the street topless is not nice behaviour if there are those with different cultures who would be offended since they can't avoid it.

Whether those reasons apply in a western culture sporting scenario is more arguable - it's a western sporting culture so if you come from another culture then nobody's forcing you to go there. That may limit the sporting diversity but 1) many of those cultures won't be interested in the sporting context, and 2) if there's enough demand for modestly covered climbing, then the good ol' capitalist free market economy will eventually supply.

Having said all that, I agree with many other posters who've basically said, wall owner's prerogative.

In reply to Michael Hood:

Of course I am. I am western, in a western country, commenting on a perceived problem in a western pastime.
To compare with taliban controlled areas is redundant, and I really don't see your point.
Although I do indeed make the connection with their oppressive history and continued oppression of civil liberties and our own history based on religious views. That bleeds in to modern society and is unfortunately the bases for a lot of our rules.
Until there is a sizeable population of taliban climbing in south London, I really don't see your point.
And again you also resort to the 'different cultures get offended' argument, but WHY. Offence in itself is not a all powerful reason to stop or not do things. It's a reason to question. If it ain't affecting you, it's just your choice and/ or social conditioning that make you dislike something.

In reply to mark_wellin:


Other than causing offence, what reason is there not to tell racist jokes at loud volume in a pub?

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Because propagating racist views and opinions has proved to incite hatred and violence against people of different creeds. Are you serious?!

In reply to mark_wellin:


Not really, no. But the bloke in the pub telling the racist joke would say exactly the same thing, they're just telling a joke and not inciting any hatred or violence against anyone. People shouldn't be so touchy, everyone's getting offended by everything these days, blah blah.

I just think arguments against other people "being offended" (whatever that actually means) are a load of crap. Either what you say and do has a negative impact on others, or it doesn't. If your behaviour makes people in the vicinity feel angry, or intimidated, or upset, then it's having a negative impact. You can't get around that by saying "your just being offended and that's your problem, not good enough reason for me to stop".

Not that this applies to shirts off in the wall, which by no accounts is offensive!

In reply to Jon Stewart:
I somewhat agree, but if and only if the offence is reasonable. If someone has, for example, just had a tragic accident happen to someone they know and you insist on dancing around them reminding them of that, then not only are you being offensive (and a massive knob) but it is quite reasonable for the offendee to be offended - and any benefits to the offender or society at large are outweighed by the harm caused. But if you were speaking at a public inquiry, and were basically explaining that the tragic accident was the fault of the offendee, then (provided it is not done in an abusive fashion) the benefit to society of understanding how the accident occurred may outweigh the offence done to the offendee.

If on the other hand I am offended by people wearing yellow T-shirts, or the word the Knights who say Ni cannot hear, or people who are just a little bit annoying, I am just going to have to deal with it.

There is a wide grey area in between, which is where everything gets dodgy... for example, religious offence, where striking the balance between respecting peoples (potentially quite crazy, from your point of view) beliefs and not having to make excessive accommodation. For example, beliefs relating to gender separation that you may feel are a violation of human rights/sexist, or just the fact that in this country we require a particular arbitrary set of clothing regulations, rather than another - and we do require people to cover their 'shameful' bodies, albeit only really religiously motivated in a historical sense!

PS I don't think offendee is a real word... YET. Edit - it's in Wiktionary so I am claiming it is a real word now

In reply to Fiend:

If you're going to a children's party venue you should comply with their dress code and be grateful you're allowed in And this is an industry bankrolled by children's parties and beginner's courses.

Jeez, some people. Just think of the kids.

In reply to Fiend:

I have the solution - tried and tested. yesterday I completely immersed my t shirt before climbing at a ridiculously hot and humid wall. The result was I stayed comfortably cool and could stay focused on the climbing rather than my discomfort.
To those self righteous cocks who say shirts off is just showing off - you obviously have a different physiology to me, Fiend, Dave Macleod etc...
Anyway how could wet t shirts be remotely offensive? I'm all for it

In reply to MeMeMe:

No top off at the wall for me, partly because by the time I'd left for the wall the voting was 1-1 and partly because it wasn't hot at the wall and I didn't need to take my top off to cool down.
Besides this isn't reality TV you know, I don't just do what the votes say.

My local wall is interesting because you hardly ever see tops off there although there is no rule against it.
I think it's partially a cultural thing, where I lived previously people would get their tops off all the time which would make it socially acceptable for others to get their tops off.

I'm sure if I'm at the wall on a hot day I'll end up with my top off but honestly it's just to cool down, I've no interest in showing off my palid torso and whilst others may not like the sight of it they can just suck it up and learn to loosen up a little!

In reply to MeMeMe:

Its only rare occasions most people do it so your top doesnt get soaking, soaking top when you belay makes you damn cold

In reply to john arran:

>Tops off simply isn't widely acknowledged in Europe as being offensive, otherwise we wouldn't see it on beaches, in swimming pools, in parks and around town in summer.

But it all depends on the context. It's obviously fully acceptable at beaches and swimming pools, and possibly in parks. It's less acceptable around town, although of course you see it. It's unacceptable on public transport, in the office, at a wedding or a funeral...

The reasons for this are hard to pin down. It's not necessarily about feeling offended, but more about the people around you being comfortable. The more people are forced into closer proximity with strangers, the less acceptable it becomes. And while social norms may be there to be challenged, they do help us all to rub along together without causing too much friction.

>Tops off in climbing walls therefore falls into the category of dress code... Nobody has yet provided any substantive case for such a dress code restriction being reasonable in the majority of walls.

The fact we are having this debate shows that going topless is not uniformly accepted, and quite a number don't seem to be convinced that it is necessary and not simply an affectation. That alone shows that it is not unreasonable to have such a policy. You could also say that no one has provided a substantive case for their own selfish preferences to take precedence over the opinions of other users.

In reply to mark_wellin:


If you're that sweaty, please keep your top on, I don't want you dripping on me, thanks.

In reply to Fiend:

Congratulations, 200 replies and over 8300 views and you've not replied even once. Troll of the year so far?

In reply to Dogwatch:


Surely its absurd to be offended by human flesh? Why on earth should that cause offense to anyone?

But of course you can say everyone is different and that is true. For some people strobes can trigger seizures. However we don't ban strobes in night clubs (or films) because of that. People with that problem just have to be aware to avoid strobes.

If someone chooses to be offended by human flesh then that's their problem. We don't go round living our lives to fit in with other people's problems. They can choose to avoid the places, like beaches and swimming pools where they're likely to be offended.

In reply to stp:


Yeah, and nightclub management can decide wether or not to have strobes at their venue.

In reply to Howard J:


Go to any swimming pool and I think that you'll find that it is.



There's absolutely nothing selfish about not wearing a top. The only selfishness is by those who expect other people to wear clothing that to fit in with their idiosyncratic preferences.

In reply to stp:


We should be considerate to those around us, just as we would expect them to be considerate towards us. There's an unpleasant streak of selfishness in some of these arguments - I want to do this, so nobody else's views matter.


Beaches and swimming pools are places where it is considered socially acceptable. In other situations it is not. Some people think it should be socially acceptable at climbing walls, but judging from the responses here (and more significantly, the number you see topless at most walls) they are in a minority.

However indoor walls are private places and can make their own rules. At walls where the topless brigade forms a majority it may be acceptable and the wall may allow it, at others it will not, and some will be neutral.

In reply to Howard J:


Because if you're not topless then it's because you find people going topless socially unacceptable?

You don't know what those people think, you are just assuming they agree with you because you want to win an argument on the internet. Maybe if you asked them it would turn out they less prudish and more liberal than you think?

In reply to whom it may concern:

I cant be bothered to see if this has already been posted (surely it must have been) ...

youtube.com/watch?v=ceS_jkKjIgo&

In reply to Fiend:

Let this thread die already.

sincerely,
- everyone.

In reply to Howard J:


That is absolutely true. But only to a certain point. We shouldn't park our cars so that others can't get out. But deciding what to wear is really our business and not anyone else's.


There's an unpleasant streak of selfishness in some of these arguments - I want to do this, so nobody else's views matter.

I'm not sure it's selfish. I think it really comes down to ownership of the problem. The person who 'owns' the problem is the person who is taking offense. It's their problem, not mine or anyone else's. They need to take responsibility for that and not try to control the world around them by forcing others to live their lives according to their particular hang ups. If they can't stand the sight of a naked torso then obviously they need to take measures to protect themselves. Avoiding swimming pools, beaches and going out on sunny days for instance. A vegetarian who is repulsed by the smell of meat for instance will avoid certain restaurants. It would be absurd for them argue that meat should be banned because they don't like the smell. And it's not selfish of such restaurants to serve meat even though they know some people will dislike it.



I've never been to a wall where this is an issue so I'm skeptical of that claim. However even if true then you are arguing that domination of the minority by the majority is OK. Not a very liberal approach.

In reply to GravitySucks:

Hilarious and makes the point really well.

In reply to stp:


Well, that's a pretty simplistic view. If people really are offended by naked male torsos then I'm inclined to agree. If on the other hand people are offended by people acting like dicks then that's another matter. You can't just apply a simple "It's your fault for being offended" rule to every situation.

In reply to stp:

I don't know that its the bare torso thats a problem for many people and for many in wall management. Its the wet bodies dripping sweat on the mat that's a problem.

For other walls, as mentioned above, its to try to have a more inclusive atmosphere for families - and if you can't see why half naked blokes grunting around isn't off putting to families you really have your empathy filters turned to 11

In reply to SenzuBean:




Nah, good for another 800 posts.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Agreed. But people can behave like dicks regardless of what they're wearing. To assume those who don't wear tops are automatically dicks, or behave worse when they're not wearing a top would be quite an assumption and certainly not been my experience.

In reply to GrahamD:


Hmm. That's a strange one. I've seen lots of people climbing topless but I've never seen that before. Why is it a problem? So much sweat the mat are slippery? Maybe getting a few big fans would be the way to solve it - better for everyone on a hot day.


Well it's a climbing wall. A beach is beach and a swimming pool is a swimming pool. Most people, families included, seem to be able to make the mental adjustment. I've even seen young lads climbing shirtless on occasion so I'm guessing they don't have a problem with it. I think young people in general have far fewer problems in this regard than older people and are more open minded generally .

In reply to Fiend:

Perhaps ultimately it comes down to this. We live in a free society. Part of the cost of that freedom is that some people are not going to like what some other people do. We either choose to live with that fact or opt for a society that is more totalitarian in nature eg. fundamentalist Islam.

In reply to stp:

You're literally making the exact same points that I did, just to a different person! I would advise you that bashing your head against this particular wall gets you nowhere, mate.
It's so obvious, to me at least, that the problem is in the eye of the beholder but I got called arrogant and lacking empathy.
I don't see how expressing ones right to do what you want in a liberal society is selfish, when the outcome is not affecting the other party. I would argue that pressing your hang ups/ social awkwardness/ offence on that party is the selfish act.

In reply to stp:

I don't really understand this. Does it only apply to things that aren't offensive to anyone (e.g. shirtless bloke at the wall, something that I don't think anyone is actually offended by) or does it apply to stuff that does offend people, like getting your cock out, or screaming abuse?

The whole debate about "offence" is bogus. It makes no sense anyway, but it's not relevant here to begin with. No one has been offended. Some climbing wall owners prefer people not to climb shirtless, and as explained above, this is very unlikely to be a response to "offended" customers and much more likely to be to do with the general atmosphere.

In reply to stp:

The free society means that if you own a business, you run it as you please (within the law). If your customer doesn't like it, they are free to piss off. If you think that someone saying "put your shirt on in here please" is restricting your freedom, you are a spoilt brat.

In reply to Fiend:

I wonder what the split between the tops off brigade and the nipple deniers really is?
Is it geography? Possibly it's more hot and humid for more of the year down south so people get naked more often. Possibly not, as Dave McLeod is a renowned top-offer.
Is it age? Possibly a generational thing when social taboos aren't so strongly engrained in generations X and on.
Is it outlook on nakedness as a whole? Do those that spend their time happily in the buff at home, have a predisposition to being shirtless? From my own experience it doesn't hold up, my friend will happily climb topless when he needs too, but he's definitely a two pants rather than no pants kinda guy.
Or is it that some people get hot and taking their top off helps them cool down, whereas others don't. Erm.... Ding ding ding! Winner.

Ned and McLeod are two very famous climbers that have spoken about their struggles with excess sweating. As their blogs show, they go tops off in an attempt to stay cool, even outside, even in January, even in the north.

I really think those that see tops off as *only showing off simple don't suffer being hot AF all the time. They're the ones that still wear socks to bed in June, whereas people like me have been sleeping with a fan for the last two months.

Probably a mix of all of the above?

* I'm sure there is showboating involved with some tops off action.

In reply to stp:


Why is sweat dripping all over floor unpleasant ? FFS its a venue where some walls want to run kid's birthday parties. It shouldn't be difficult to work out.


You only see the self selecting few 'lads' that want to mix with the posers. You don't see the parents that don't bring their kid's party to that wall because its unpleasant.

Anyway its the wall's call and I respect their reasons for/against whatever they think fits their business model best.

In reply to Fiend:

Is this thread STILL going?!

Worth a bump then...

In reply to Fiend:

I think it's not appropriate to have a climbing wall full of guys posing around like the weight section of a gym.

It puts real climbers - not posers - off from getting on with enjoying their climbing.

I support any wall who would ban or limit shirtless displays of testosterone. Most of these shirtless guys are crap climbers too.

In reply to Fiend:

I like climbing with my top off at climbing walls. Because there's always other people around it means I have to spend the entire time sucking in my (substantial) stomach. This gives me a significant 'core' workout that I would not have otherwise had.

In reply to GrahamD:


Is it that much worse than people taking their shoes off and walking round the mats with their sweaty feet? I doubt that the mats at an indoor wall could ever be a hygienic environment!

Obviously it's their call but I'd be disappointed if my local bouldering wall banned topless climbing. It's hot, it's sweaty, it's a training venue and I enjoy the freedom of being able to climb in little shorts and a sports bra. TBH given the choice I'd far rather they banned kids, especially groups, which are far more irritating. I'd happily pay slightly more for my sessions if it meant feckless parents weren't using the wall as a creche/soft play area!

In reply to climbingpixie:

Slightly more rather depends on where the wall sees its revenue which varies from wall to wall. If they saw half their revenue stream from kids parties then your 'slight increase' is actually more like double.

In reply to MrWayne:


I'll have you know some of us can be crap climbers with our TOPS on! No need for a state of undress or power shouts to achieve that.

It would be nice to be able to climb topless at a wall, but with my gorgeous physique, women just cannot refrain from groping me, so I had to revert to being covered up and sweaty.

In reply to GrahamD:


I think you exaggerate. I've never seen any such thing at a climbing wall and I've climbed at them in all seasons. Maybe the odd drop of sweat here or there is possible (though I've not even noticed that). But surely nothing that's not going to dry up in a couple of minutes on a warm evening.

But what about sweat on the holds? I've definitely come across that. Pull on to a problem after someone else and the hold is warm and slimy. Anything that reduces climbers hands sweating has to be a good thing and makes the climbing safer. Greasy holds can be hazardous and cause accidents.



So your implicit assumption is that tops off is all about posing and not about comfort. Well I can't say that never happens but Fiend's original point is about the fact that he's more comfortable with his top off.



My point is precisely that it's likely to be the parents with the problem and not the children who generally don't suffer with such hang ups. The argument that we're protecting kids in some way is utter BS in my opinion.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


I don't see any difference in the general atmosphere. It's more or less the same whether its wrapped up in the dead of winter or tops off in the summer heat. Climbers are focused on getting up whatever it is they're trying.

It's not like we're going from suits and ties to shorts and topless. If people are wearing tops on a warm day then quite likely to be vest or sports bra anyway. The change from that to topless is minor and trivial.

In reply to stp:


That's because you can only see it from your point of view.


Not all climbers think the same and behave the same.

In reply to Fiend:

I'm amazed this thread is still going - nearly 10,000 hits.

Well done Fiend - we now know what really gets climbers frothing at the mouth. And it's not the referendum!

In reply to Babika:

OK, here's my two cents' worth from Upsidedownland (and bearing in mind it's now worth a bit more):
Climbingpixie is correct ... short shorts and a sports bra - it's called compromise. Hide the manboobs fellas ... it aint a good look.
A bit like MAMILS - Middle Aged Men In Lycra.
I'll go away again now.
Toodle-pip. x