UKC

Sadly, a huge number of the disadvantaged of this country who have felt marginalised, ignored and financially defrauded by recent governments became convinced that it was really all about immigrants when it was really all about a self-defeating policy of austerity which unfairly penalised those who had least to do with the bankers’ crash. Nothing which a government headed by Johnson and Gove might do will do anything to improve the lot of these people and will more likely worsen their lives. In addition, many of my generation have come to yearn for a rose-tinted past that actually wasn’t as good as they seem to remember, and this has overcome their responsibilities towards their children’s and their grandchildren’s generation. A sad day indeed

In reply to Rog Wilko:

Well said.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

A very good summary.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

Hit the nail on the head.

In reply to Rog Wilko
. In addition, many of my generation have come to yearn for a rose-tinted past that actually wasn’t as good as they seem to remember, and this has overcome their responsibilities towards their children’s and their grandchildren’s generation. A sad day indeed

All of those "like and share if you remember how good it was in the '70s" posts on Facebook. False nostalgia for a past that never was.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

Perhaps many people are much more perceptive than you realise Rog, leavers are not intellectual cretins necessarily.

We also know that a much higher percentage than 52% of the vote were exceedingly unhappy with the EU as it is, even if they were too scared to vote out.
DC

In reply to Rog Wilko:

The Road to Wigan Pier should be compulsory reading for all schoolchildren...then maybe the halcyon days of the empire wouldn't seem so rosy!

In reply to Rog Wilko:

This piece from the FT sums it up really well

https://twitter.com/MarcusRomer/status/746262772019773441/photo/1

Thoroughly depressed this morning - can't believe we have shot ourselves in the foot like this. The areas which rely most on EU aid have voted overwhelming to leave - did they really believe the promises made ? Or was it the fear and hatred that has been whipped up ? The Leave campaign has set the blueprint for future elections and it's not going to be pretty.

In reply to Dave Cumberland:

Still only 36% of the electorate voted leave, if i remember that was about the percentage that got this tory government in, which this time next year might be led by Boris. Not convinced he would have won the general election last may.

Worried and disenfranchised, and i think i speak for a lot of young people there, across class and political alignment.

Time to up sticks i think.

In reply to Removed Userbennett_leather:

How can you feel disenfranchised? This vote was not a constituency based FPTP ballot, your vote (either way) counted towards the final outcome. If 28% of people could not be arsed to vote despite wall to wall coeverage and a huge push from both sides to get people registered in time, well, more fool them.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

As ever, I love Frankie Boyle's page :

at least all those old people who voted Leave wont be able to afford gas this winter : )

In reply to C£ Chullain:
Not with this vote in particular, it's done now. More with the political landscape, and the prospect of Johnson, Gove and the rest in office, due to clever politics and not the results of an election.

Edit: With Cameron resigning it feels like the whole election process has been totally undermined by playing on the decisive topic of Europe.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

Well said Sir, right on.

I feel like any comment I make today is both a mixture of sour grapes and also results for my privileged background of financial stability and support and access to decent education. But today, fear, lies and intolerance have won the day. The referendum should never have gone ahead and democracy has shown it's fragility.

In reply to Cú Chullain:


How can you call something an exercise in democracy when the electorate was fed a steady stream of lies and fear from either side?

In reply to Rog Wilko:


Not to mention that your generation also all got mildly lead poisoned from cumulative exposure to all the tetraethyl-lead in the exhaust fumes back then.

In reply to Removed Userbennett_leather:



Well less so clever politics from Johnson, Gove et all and more a case of awful politics from Labour who have in the space of a few years have lost their entire voter base in Scotland, most of Wales and most of rural England. Despite repeated chances to address the concerns (immigration) of the average blue collar worker they opted instead to either ignore them or just label them as thick/stupid/racist/bigoted etc. Is it any wonder they voted with their feet for an alternative.

In reply to Cú Chullain:

They may have lost their voter base in scotland, yet every area in scotland had a remain majority. This referendum has transcended party lines.

It's clear as day that Boris' endgame is No.10, and on some level I think he knew he would never be taken seriously as leader of the tory without a victory like this behind him.

If he gets into No.10, quite frankly, it's an affront to democracy.

In reply to toad:




You're obviously a bit younger than me. Don't you know it was the 60s when life was good?;0D

In reply to Dave Cumberland:


I don't think I said that, and even if I implied it, that was unintentional. But intelligence is obviously distributed a la bell curve, and as many as half the population are below average in all sorts of ways.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

Agree, it is a worrying concept that if you think about the average, shocking to realise that half of all are below it .. ..

In reply to Chris the Tall:

The areas which rely most on EU aid have voted overwhelming to leave - did they really believe the promises made ?


Yes, it is a major triumph for brain-washing when the population of Liverpool, a city transformed beyond recognition by EU money (which I believe no UK government would have given) votes to leave. It's enough to make you despair.

In reply to Rog Wilko:


Which is just the sort of statememt which lost the vote for the remain side. Calm down. Respect the democratic decision.

In reply to Dave Cumberland:


Please tell me you are being ironic...or do you seriously not know how averages work?

In reply to SenzuBean:


I'm not quite sure how to take this, but if you're implying my brainpower isn't up to what it was when I was younger, well, I can't argue. It isn't!
Or maybe you're suggesting I am one of the rose-tinted-spectacle-wearing old fogeys who voted out; I'm not.

In reply to Rog Wilko:



Liverpool voted 58-42 to Remain
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2016/jun/23/eu-referendu...

In reply to lummox:



Won't need gas with all the hot air from Bremainers

In reply to Rog Wilko:


I'm not suggesting anything personally other than grumbling that in an alternate future, where nobody was lead poisoned - things would be a bit different.
I am saying that your generation _was_ lead poisoned (maybe not you personally - depends where you grew up), and that lead poisoning was a major contributor to the crime wave of the 80s (as in it's estimated to have increased the crime rate by 40%), and has been proven to reduce IQ and increase aggression. I guess I'm just saying it's unfortunate that it happened, and I suspect it's part of the reason for this:
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13494828_10154342308144319_84...

In reply to Rog Wilko:

rose tinted 1970s what on earth where they thinking of. nostalgia for a past that never existed. In 1972 when we first joined the EU we had mass unemployment of 1 million, London was still full of left over bombsites from a war that had only ended 27 years ago and everyone was skint. http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/january/20/newsid_2506000/...

In reply to Trevers:


Oh dear. My Apologies. I can only blame my wife who told me that the city had voted leave. I should have checked.

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

oh well, Jim Davidson and Toby Carveries ahoy.

Making Britain Great Again

via recession.

In reply to Cú Chullain:


I agree with you, but I'm still not certain how any credible political party could 'address' immigration. It's persistently painted as a problem while being a net contributor to our economy, and every politician knows that - even the ones who'll pretend otherwise to win votes. What should Labour have done differently? (I genuinely don't know btw - this isn't a loaded question!)

In reply to Alyson:

The problem was politicians consistantly pointing to GDP figures saying 'look, its good for the economy' while ignoring the fact that many working folk could not give a monkeys about the macro economic case for remain when their experiences are increased competition in the unskilled/semi skilled work place with migrant workers while simultaniously being called lazy and useless. Of course various captains of industry were going to opt for remain if it means a ready supply of cheap non unionised labour.

In reply to Cú Chullain:

...a case of awful politics from Labour who have in the space of a few years have lost their entire voter base in Scotland, most of Wales and most of rural England. Despite repeated chances to address the concerns (immigration) of the average blue collar worker they opted instead to either ignore them or just label them as thick/stupid/racist/bigoted etc. Is it any wonder they voted with their feet for an alternative.

My thoughts exactly. Labour has not represented their core constituency for a long time and they are reaping what they have sown. All very well Islington Guardian types proclaiming their world view but it's not representative of those who, historically at least, voted them into power. Hence UKIP, hence Brexit, one might conclude. More than that, when the inevitable General Election comes about Labour are still doing their very best to render themselves unelectable. I look forward to the Boris Trump world

In reply to Rog Wilko:

Agreed. Lots.

In reply to Alyson:

I think it's largely a matter of emphasis. If Labour politicians didn't keep publicly resorting to the 'bigot' quip their erstwhile supporters might have had more time for them. I agree with you that immigration is going to continue, in or out of the EU, for the reasons you state but the 'no upper limit' approach espoused by Corbyn and co doesn't resonate with peoples' legitimate concerns (probably bigoted to say that though...)

In reply to Rog Wilko:

Chicken Licken scenarios Private Frazer.

BoJo and Farage have already about turned on their Leave manifesto. Not enough people believed Cameron after years of lies and sidestepping. Maybe the British public might start holding their politicians to account.

D

In reply to pebbles:

We've still got over a million unemployed. 1.67 million to be more exact.

D

In reply to lummox:

Toby carvery - full beef dinner for £5.99 and as much veg as you like - what's not to like!

In reply to Alyson:

Just an observation - if someone comes to Britian to take up a minimum wage job, they pay minimal tax (£450 a year for a single person) and if they bring their families they get working tax credits so become a net cost to the country and they receive child benefit of £1076 for the first child and £712 for each additional child, plus free healthcare, schooling etc - minimum wage immigration costs the government and hence tax payers money.

In reply to Removed Userbennett_leather:

There got to be big calls for a general election, the next leader of the country needs a mandate.

D

In reply to Dauphin:

What happens if the next PM was a Remain supporter?

In reply to cander:

Loads of "IFS" in there to paint a very specific case, and then make the leap to suggest that "HENCE" everyone will fit that very specific profile!

In reply to Mr Lopez:

Minimum wage immigration isn't a good thing for the UK, or for any country with a welfare system that tops up wages. We need immigration but let's not kid ourselves that it hasn't got an associated cost.

In reply to cander:

and what about the approx 14,000 they take home and spend? or is it all tax free?

In reply to cander:


and of course people born in the UK who take up a minimum wage job and have children have to pay more tax to cover costs...?

In reply to Alyson:

'What should Labour have done differently? (I genuinely don't know btw - this isn't a loaded question!)' They could/should have been passionate about the EU as force for combining economic prosperity with social justice and environmental responsibility. Alan Johnson tried; Gordon Brown tried; Corbyn bottled it.

They could have acknowledged that the huge sudden influx of migrants, particularly from Eastern Europe, was probably a mistake, one that would not be repeated as we would veto any other new countries e.g. Turkey until more sensible controls and plans were put in place.

When Corbyn was asked about this last week, a question which rightly or wrongly was at the forefront of many of his constituent's minds, he didn't just bottle it, he dismissed their concerns with student politics platitudes. That response alone may have cost a few million - THE few million - votes that we needed to stay in. I for one am resigning from the Labour party because of him.

In reply to Chris the Tall:




I'm amazed the Welsh voted out.. Massive net gainers from the EU.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
Won the bloody election, not voted in ed and now Corbyn who has been a waste of space through this.

In reply to cander:

What you mean to say is:


On the other hand your average minimum wage immigrant is still a plus for the country, as they still pay taxes, both income tax and VAT, they pay national insurance contributions, they are usually young and healthy so have no need of free schooling and healthcare, they are working, so not on benefits, and through their work they allow companies to make money and help the economy do its growing thing.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Played a blinder with that 'no upward limit ' comment last week, if the labour party had any bollocks its would of gone Leave as an opposition party and as it turns out the choice of the people.

I'm a reluctant Brexiter. No crowing. But, sure it woz labours fault the majority voted against the interests of the metropolitan elite nomenclatura and owner classes.

D

In reply to john arran:

Errrr going forward, lessons learned and all that bollocks.

D

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:



If it is what I am thinking of I am not sure he could have answered it differently. Well unless he was willing to outright lie.

In reply to Dauphin:

I'll rephrase. What happens if the new PM is a remain supporter who between now and the election gains leadership of his/her party with openly Remain intentions and subsequently wins the general election on a Remain manifesto?

In reply to Mr Lopez:

When we have 1.6 million unemployed the case for minimum wage Immigration is pretty difficult to justify IMO.

In reply to cander:

The cause of that level of unemployment is neither lack of minimum wage jobs nor anything to do with immigration, so it does nothing to justify it or not.

In reply to Dauphin:




I think that's what labour have done too much, just opposition, no core principles anymore.

In reply to john arran:
Unlikely but possible given the timerous nature of current U.K. party politicians. Since the referendum isnt binding i dont see why it wouldn't be possible to a have a second chance Remain platform in a general election, but even less of chance of Corbyn leading that. The majority of parliament is pro EU, the far right of the conservatives (eighty something?) and a few anti-authoritarian left wingers in the labour ranks are opposed. Hardly the stuff of popular governments here in the U.K. or indeed could they even form a government that could get anything done? I think we'll see a long drawn out and distinctly British non exit, Brexit, compromises all round despite the rhetoric going around today. If you like politics you're going to love Brexit.

The purge of the Tesco croissant munching europhile quislings starts Monday.



D

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Yes, I think Corbyn has to go too.

In reply to john arran:


He's in and we remain. He's (if a he) has a mandate to remain.

It would be hard though b it as only 36% voted out certainly not impossible.

In reply to Roadrunner5:

It doesn't do opposition at all, not in any rhetorical sense.
Its had no core principles since it got rid of Blair. Painful as it is for me to admit that.

Corbyn hates the E.U. for good solid ideological reasons he should of gone with his beliefs. Theyll' oust him over this anyway.

D

In reply to cander:

I think we can safely admit that at least 2/3rds of those are unemployable. Times have moved on there simply isn't enough manual labour or colonies be suppressed to go around.

D

In reply to Dauphin:
Rubbish - that's the most miserable and snippy dismissal of 1.6 million people I've ever read - shameful lefty champagne socialist guff.

In reply to Dauphin:


I would say prior to that. It was Blair who switched them to targeting the swing voters.
Corbyn might have pulled it back but the Labour party is badly split between those MPs who came in on the target the swing voters vs the members.
Which means we end up with the odd claim of moderates vs everyone else. When those moderates actually have some rather extreme positions but are just ones which are presented as the norm since the Thatcherites and Blairites agree on them.

In reply to cander:


Based upon your lengthy and intimate studies of the socially maligned and marginalized? Everyone can be a winner? Four million non natives came here between 2001 and 2005/6 to work, basically we have full employment, despite a tail end of a recession and hardly a dent in the long term unemployed in the U.K. I think I might know something about what I'm talking about here. If only education, training schemes, the probation service etc where better.....Or you just might catch on one day there's a subset of society that's mentally ill-equiped to organize themselves to hold down a job that requires any level of 'can-do' or responsibility. Around 5% of the working population seems about right. I'm not blaming them, quite the contrary.

D

In reply to KevinD:

I meant 'core principles' in the organizational sense not the political or moral sense. The labour party of today in the sense of being a fraternal society of common interest or objective has neither.

D

In reply to Rog Wilko:
I 100% agree with the sentiments of your OP, a bleak day for the Nation (although most of the Leavers aren't seeing it that way - yet).
I'm sure that many of those that voted out did so for reasons other than Racism, but by doing so they have legitimised the odious views of the hard right. I thought we were living in an increasingly liberal society, one that was learning to welcome diversity, but now I have grave doubts and feel a sharp stab of (previously absent) anxiety about the country into which we've adopted an Ethiopian boy.
I'm disturbed how many people in this Country meet immigrants and befriend them, but cannot extend this perspective outside their own bubble, it's the "Oh, Ee's alright, even though he's foreign, Ee's me mate" attitude. There are good and bad people wherever you go in the World, right now though I'm feeling we've got more than our share of the latter.

In reply to Dauphin:

Yous are some baby - you diss 1.6 million then say all of them are so feckless they'll be permanently unemployed - the country needs ditch diggers (insert manual labouring job or whatever here) too you know and we don't need to import labour to do it either.

In reply to john arran:


I've never voted Tory and never thought I would, but I might if I thought this was a possibility.

In reply to Trevers:


Like every election ever then!

Best to leave it to the grown ups to decide what is best eh?

In reply to Cú Chullain:


I reserve the right to complain then as well. But the lies, the fear mongering and the vitriol have plumbed new depths (at least in my lifetime), and in a vote that is far more important than any general or local election. That's not healthy for democracy any way you look at it, even if you think this should have been put to a referendum in the first place.


No offence, but that's a pretty immature thing to say. As if your 14 years on me gives you any greater insight into what is best for 65 million people.

In reply to Trevers:



I agree that the referendum was conducted in a dire manner.

As for your second point, I think you took my comment the wrong way, it was made firmly tongue in cheek.

In reply to Cú Chullain:


Apologies, I take it back.

In reply to KevinD:




That was his principle though. A center left party.

Hopefully this finally nails labours far left ideas and come central and win a bloody election.

In reply to cander:


So why aren't they working? There's plenty of work to go around, so much of it that non nationals come here to dig up and sort potatoes, join the navy, army, air force, work in financial services, I.T., sandwich and coffee shops and work on the till in Tesco. And every other sector you can think of. Non nationals, who's first and second language isn't English with no connection with the country.

Must be some mythical variable that we can't get right in the U.K., no?

D

In reply to Rog Wilko:

I remember the 70's. They were shit.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

I'm trying(not too hard) to look at this result from a dispassionate perspective. The Tories in their manifesto said they were going to have a referendum on exit from the EU which has resulted in a vote to exit however the perception seems to be that Labour voters swayed the vote towards exit. So if Brexit goes tits up it will be Labours fault but if all goes well the Tories will take the credit - hmmm.

In reply to Rog Wilko:
Democracy in the UK has been undermined by the media. The readers of the red tops etc have believed all the propaganda pushed by Murdoch. When all we get is lies and deceit in the media no one especially the less incitefull can make a rational and informed decsion.
It was Murdoch who said he liked going to number 10 because they did as he bid, whereas he hated Brussels because they ignored him..
Its how the Tories got elected and how we chucked ourselves out of Europe. Until the media prints facts and only facts true Democracy in the UK is a distant hope.

In reply to Roadrunner5:


Apart from that wasnt what we got.
What we got was a extreme free market and privatisation party which resulted in a large part of its traditional electorate being ignored. It did have an overlay of more liberal social policies but it isnt clear how many of those were pushed on Blair.

In reply to Root1:

It's not just the red tops, the broadsheets have a bias as well although they will frame it slightly more nuanced terms. The Guardian published some utterly hysterical pieces on the run up to the referendum and Polly Toynbees piece hours after Jo Cox's murder was appalling. Level of debate by both sides was pretty embarrassing with most of it just turning into background white noise weeks before the vote with many people just switching off. It is a shame that many people do not take more of an effort to draw their news from more then one provider to arrive at least a balanced point of view, but such is democracy. There were many valid concerns and arguments for voting out so it was painful watching interviews in the street in the town of Boston which amounted to nothing more then 'my grandad fought in world war 2....us Brits don't like taking orders' betrayed a stunning lack of awareness. An equal lack of awareness was middle class folk moaning that little Johnny can't go and study or work in Barcelona anymore completely ignoring the fact that for a vast number of recent school leavers that was never ever going to be an option or ambition and all they wanted was some reasonable chance of getting on a training scheme or a local job with their handful of GCSEs and being told that the 20 something degree educated Latvian got the gig. Anyway I am rambling now!