This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Will the far righters start to emerge from under their stones (the even-more-far-right than Farage) and start attacking people when they don't see a mass removal of "migrant workers" next week? Will they feel they have been given the go-ahead by the success of the Brexit campaign? Will they feel the majority is behind them?
I pray not.
I pray not.
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In reply to Pete Pozman:
Rather unlikely.
The main problem is when people realise that leaving the EU doesnt cure all ills and start looking for alternate answers. That will probably in a few years though.
Rather unlikely.
The main problem is when people realise that leaving the EU doesnt cure all ills and start looking for alternate answers. That will probably in a few years though.
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In reply to Pete Pozman:
Yeah, I voted Leave and I'm sharpening my machete right now ...
I live in a quite ethnically diverse area and when I went out for cat food earlier everything was exactly the same as it was yesterday, everyone milling around getting on with their business. Amazing!
Yeah, I voted Leave and I'm sharpening my machete right now ...
I live in a quite ethnically diverse area and when I went out for cat food earlier everything was exactly the same as it was yesterday, everyone milling around getting on with their business. Amazing!
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In reply to Cú Chullain:
It never too early for a drink - when working in Denmark an old chap came down for breakfast that consisted of two bottles of carlsberg followed by a belch. If carlsberg did breakfast .......
It never too early for a drink - when working in Denmark an old chap came down for breakfast that consisted of two bottles of carlsberg followed by a belch. If carlsberg did breakfast .......
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In reply to Cú Chullain:
Maybe…….. or not!
The far right is on the rise throughout Europe. Like the last time that this happened, it is of our own making - not just the UK but the whole of Europe for not paying enough attention - and look what happened - 60 million dead (about 3% of the world's population at the time).
But, surely it won't happen in our times?
I suspect there were plenty of people who thought that during the 200 years of the Pax Romana. Look what happened in the following 2 millenia.
We must pay attention and address the concerns of ordinary, disenfranchised people.
> Bit early for drinking?
Maybe…….. or not!
The far right is on the rise throughout Europe. Like the last time that this happened, it is of our own making - not just the UK but the whole of Europe for not paying enough attention - and look what happened - 60 million dead (about 3% of the world's population at the time).
But, surely it won't happen in our times?
I suspect there were plenty of people who thought that during the 200 years of the Pax Romana. Look what happened in the following 2 millenia.
We must pay attention and address the concerns of ordinary, disenfranchised people.
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In reply to Hugh J:
might be worth checking out Britain First's victory statement about how UKIP has served it's purpose and now it's time for Britain First to rise following a defeat of the enemies to the country before mocking the OP............
might be worth checking out Britain First's victory statement about how UKIP has served it's purpose and now it's time for Britain First to rise following a defeat of the enemies to the country before mocking the OP............
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In reply to Lusk:
What da ya mean the ethnics weren't being rounded up and put in cattle trucks back to Johnny Foreigner land? I can see why you're amazed it's been been like 6 hours since the Leave vote and we still have foreigners in the country sponging off our benefits, NHS, jobs. :|
> Yeah, I voted Leave and I'm sharpening my machete right now ...
> I live in a quite ethnically diverse area and when I went out for cat food earlier everything was exactly the same as it was yesterday, everyone milling around getting on with their business. Amazing!
What da ya mean the ethnics weren't being rounded up and put in cattle trucks back to Johnny Foreigner land? I can see why you're amazed it's been been like 6 hours since the Leave vote and we still have foreigners in the country sponging off our benefits, NHS, jobs. :|
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In reply to Scarab9:
That bunch of wankers can put out what ever cobblers they wish - doesn't make it happen.
That bunch of wankers can put out what ever cobblers they wish - doesn't make it happen.
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In reply to Hugh J:
Invoking the rise of the Third Reich might be over doing it a bit!
What does not help iin these debates is the abuse of the term "far right".
They may look like clowns, but UKIP are not far right. Golden Dawn are far right. Using "far right" about UKIP is either ignorant or suggests that you're attempting to demonise them by direct comparison with the likes of Golden Dawn.
The far right in Britain is conspicuous by its virtual absence. Even when it putatively exists - viz BNP and EDF - it's notable that after the racist stuff, most of their policies are actually far left, involving nationalising everything in sight.
But pretending that UKIP is a far right party is just to play the parlour game beloved by the soft left of trying to avoid discussing subjects that they find uncongenial - Euroscepticism and immigration being just such topics - by labelling even the discussion of them as "extreme".
The problem is that once you start doing that, not only do you attempt to close down discussion of subjects which are legitimate matters of debate in a democracy, thereby fomenting dissatisfaction with the political process, but you've also lost any yardstick of what extreme actually means. A reasoned discussion about immigration policy is not the same as the Edict of Expulsion of 1290, even if you don't necessarily agree with everything the other person has said.
> Maybe…….. or not!
> The far right is on the rise throughout Europe. Like the last time that this happened, it is of our own making - not just the UK but the whole of Europe for not paying enough attention - and look what happened - 60 million dead (about 3% of the world's population at the time).
> But, surely it won't happen in our times?
> I suspect there were plenty of people who thought that during the 200 years of the Pax Romana. Look what happened in the following 2 millenia.
> We must pay attention and address the concerns of ordinary, disenfranchised people.
Invoking the rise of the Third Reich might be over doing it a bit!
What does not help iin these debates is the abuse of the term "far right".
They may look like clowns, but UKIP are not far right. Golden Dawn are far right. Using "far right" about UKIP is either ignorant or suggests that you're attempting to demonise them by direct comparison with the likes of Golden Dawn.
The far right in Britain is conspicuous by its virtual absence. Even when it putatively exists - viz BNP and EDF - it's notable that after the racist stuff, most of their policies are actually far left, involving nationalising everything in sight.
But pretending that UKIP is a far right party is just to play the parlour game beloved by the soft left of trying to avoid discussing subjects that they find uncongenial - Euroscepticism and immigration being just such topics - by labelling even the discussion of them as "extreme".
The problem is that once you start doing that, not only do you attempt to close down discussion of subjects which are legitimate matters of debate in a democracy, thereby fomenting dissatisfaction with the political process, but you've also lost any yardstick of what extreme actually means. A reasoned discussion about immigration policy is not the same as the Edict of Expulsion of 1290, even if you don't necessarily agree with everything the other person has said.
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In reply to Scarab9:
Britain First will rise? Not before lunchtime, and with a banging head from drinking cider from a 3 litre plastic bottle in the park.
> might be worth checking out Britain First's victory statement about how UKIP has served it's purpose and now it's time for Britain First to rise following a defeat of the enemies to the country before mocking the OP............
Britain First will rise? Not before lunchtime, and with a banging head from drinking cider from a 3 litre plastic bottle in the park.
Post edited at 19:43
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In reply to Cú Chullain:
From what I remember from O level history, that's normal for the far right.
>
> ... it's notable that after the racist stuff, most of their policies are actually far left, involving nationalising everything in sight.
From what I remember from O level history, that's normal for the far right.
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In reply to Pete Pozman:
People like you are the reason remain lost.
> Will the far righters start to emerge from under their stones (the even-more-far-right than Farage) and start attacking people when they don't see a mass removal of "migrant workers" next week? Will they feel they have been given the go-ahead by the success of the Brexit campaign? Will they feel the majority is behind them?
People like you are the reason remain lost.
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In reply to Big Ger:
What an incredibly mean-spirited and nasty thing to say to someone who obviously has very kind and caring principles. I would have expected you 'in victory' to have shown much greater magnanimity. Or have you forgotten all that boring old stuff? Ideas like yours are the reason I fear some kind of neo-fascism could now take hold in our once gentle and tolerant country.
> People like you are the reason remain lost.
What an incredibly mean-spirited and nasty thing to say to someone who obviously has very kind and caring principles. I would have expected you 'in victory' to have shown much greater magnanimity. Or have you forgotten all that boring old stuff? Ideas like yours are the reason I fear some kind of neo-fascism could now take hold in our once gentle and tolerant country.
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I agree with BG.
Do you honestly think that we would sink that low to what you're suggesting?
Yes, there is a loony element in this country, they're a minority and always will be.
I'm disappointed that you should harbour such thoughts about us.
I agree with BG.
Do you honestly think that we would sink that low to what you're suggesting?
Yes, there is a loony element in this country, they're a minority and always will be.
I'm disappointed that you should harbour such thoughts about us.
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In reply to Big Ger:
I think we lost (and, make no mistake, you lost too) because the people were lied to blatantly. I'm worried that Farage and "his people" haven't finished yet. The hatred is palpable out there. Did you see the old guy weeping with joy because he's got his lovely country back? How's he going to feel when the immigrants are still there in 2 years time and Boris says the "Take Back Control" thing was a slight mistake, like the £350 that, after all, isn't available to spend on the NHS.
I think we lost (and, make no mistake, you lost too) because the people were lied to blatantly. I'm worried that Farage and "his people" haven't finished yet. The hatred is palpable out there. Did you see the old guy weeping with joy because he's got his lovely country back? How's he going to feel when the immigrants are still there in 2 years time and Boris says the "Take Back Control" thing was a slight mistake, like the £350 that, after all, isn't available to spend on the NHS.
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In reply to Ridge:
They will have their potnoodles and lucozade to help them recover. Once they dig up their weapons stash of rulers they will be ready to launch the victory parade.
> Britain First will rise? Not before lunchtime, and with a banging head from drinking cider from a 3 litre plastic bottle in the park.
They will have their potnoodles and lucozade to help them recover. Once they dig up their weapons stash of rulers they will be ready to launch the victory parade.
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In reply to Pete Pozman:
perhaps even if nothing changes, with exactly the same migrant workers are here, the old man will be happy because he will see it as the UK deciding who comes, not the EU. Even if behind the detail nothing has actually changed, only the perception. But, that's politics.
> Did you see the old guy weeping with joy because he's got his lovely country back? How's he going to feel when the immigrants are still there in 2 years time and Boris says the "Take Back Control" thing was a slight mistake,
perhaps even if nothing changes, with exactly the same migrant workers are here, the old man will be happy because he will see it as the UK deciding who comes, not the EU. Even if behind the detail nothing has actually changed, only the perception. But, that's politics.
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In reply to Pete Pozman:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/player/bbc_radio_fourfm
Listening to Any Questions. UKIP MEP Steven is stirring up quite a vicious atmosphere. He's been attacking middle class, young people simply for having opportunities and has just claimed that this vote has assured a better future for working class young people. Quite disgusting comments.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/player/bbc_radio_fourfm
Listening to Any Questions. UKIP MEP Steven is stirring up quite a vicious atmosphere. He's been attacking middle class, young people simply for having opportunities and has just claimed that this vote has assured a better future for working class young people. Quite disgusting comments.
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In reply to C£ Chullain:
If you read my post I didn't though, did I? I never mentioned UKIP.
The National Socialist German Workers' Party were considered to be fringe crackpots too. Every avalanche starts with a snowflake.
Your last paragraph is exactly the point I was trying to make.
". . . the last time that this happened, it is of our own making - not just the UK but the whole of Europe for not paying enough attention"
We need to engage with this issue, not just dimiss them as crackpots.
> Invoking the rise of the Third Reich might be over doing it a bit!
> What does not help iin these debates is the abuse of the term "far right".
> They may look like clowns, but UKIP are not far right. Golden Dawn are far right. Using "far right" about UKIP is either ignorant or suggests that you're attempting to demonise them by direct comparison with the likes of Golden Dawn.
> The far right in Britain is conspicuous by its virtual absence. Even when it putatively exists - viz BNP and EDF - it's notable that after the racist stuff, most of their policies are actually far left, involving nationalising everything in sight.
> But pretending that UKIP is a far right party is just to play the parlour game beloved by the soft left of trying to avoid discussing subjects that they find uncongenial - Euroscepticism and immigration being just such topics - by labelling even the discussion of them as "extreme".
> The problem is that once you start doing that, not only do you attempt to close down discussion of subjects which are legitimate matters of debate in a democracy, thereby fomenting dissatisfaction with the political process, but you've also lost any yardstick of what extreme actually means. A reasoned discussion about immigration policy is not the same as the Edict of Expulsion of 1290, even if you don't necessarily agree with everything the other person has said.
If you read my post I didn't though, did I? I never mentioned UKIP.
The National Socialist German Workers' Party were considered to be fringe crackpots too. Every avalanche starts with a snowflake.
Your last paragraph is exactly the point I was trying to make.
". . . the last time that this happened, it is of our own making - not just the UK but the whole of Europe for not paying enough attention"
We need to engage with this issue, not just dimiss them as crackpots.
Post edited at 14:19
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In reply to Pete Pozman:
Well if everyone were to adopt your attitude and views I could certainly see the country going down the tubes.
> I think we lost (and, make no mistake, you lost too) because the people were lied to blatantly. I'm worried that Farage and "his people" haven't finished yet. The hatred is palpable out there. Did you see the old guy weeping with joy because he's got his lovely country back? How's he going to feel when the immigrants are still there in 2 years time and Boris says the "Take Back Control" thing was a slight mistake, like the £350 that, after all, isn't available to spend on the NHS.
Well if everyone were to adopt your attitude and views I could certainly see the country going down the tubes.
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In reply to summo:
perhaps, perhaps
but then perhaps not. maybe when all those people were complaining about immigration, they actually *were* complaining about immigration, not the technicalities of the rules that govern it.
if so, and we continue to allow immigration in large numbers on a 'points based system', as seems likely, then what happens?
> perhaps even if nothing changes, with exactly the same migrant workers are here, the old man will be happy because he will see it as the UK deciding who comes, not the EU. Even if behind the detail nothing has actually changed, only the perception. But, that's politics.
perhaps, perhaps
but then perhaps not. maybe when all those people were complaining about immigration, they actually *were* complaining about immigration, not the technicalities of the rules that govern it.
if so, and we continue to allow immigration in large numbers on a 'points based system', as seems likely, then what happens?
In reply to Big Ger:
You don't live here do you?
> Well if everyone were to adopt your attitude and views I could certainly see the country going down the tubes.
You don't live here do you?
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In reply to Yanis Nayu:
Oh god, how many times do I have to repeat this? I lived for 4/5 of my life in the UK, I own a house there which I will return to live in in 19 months time when I retire.
Dear god, it just goes to show the vacuity of some here that; "waa waa waa, you don't live here" is the best rebuttal they have to offer.
> You don't live here do you?
Oh god, how many times do I have to repeat this? I lived for 4/5 of my life in the UK, I own a house there which I will return to live in in 19 months time when I retire.
Dear god, it just goes to show the vacuity of some here that; "waa waa waa, you don't live here" is the best rebuttal they have to offer.
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In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
Something to consider about the points based system: before the accession nations joined the eu, there was an immigration channel for low-skilled workers to pick fruit, etc. Poland etc joined, then Romania and Bulgaria, the migration provided the labour, and the non-EU route was closed down (but still retains a theoretical place as Tier 3 of 5 in the points based system for non-EU nationals). I'd say the odds of this re-opening are high, and who will come in this way? Romanians and Bulgarians. I cannot imagine how ripped off the people who've seen their communities changed and services under pressure will feel.
> if so, and we continue to allow immigration in large numbers on a 'points based system', as seems likely, then what happens?
Something to consider about the points based system: before the accession nations joined the eu, there was an immigration channel for low-skilled workers to pick fruit, etc. Poland etc joined, then Romania and Bulgaria, the migration provided the labour, and the non-EU route was closed down (but still retains a theoretical place as Tier 3 of 5 in the points based system for non-EU nationals). I'd say the odds of this re-opening are high, and who will come in this way? Romanians and Bulgarians. I cannot imagine how ripped off the people who've seen their communities changed and services under pressure will feel.
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In reply to Pete Pozman:
It seems it's began.
Some chilling examples collected in this album https://www.facebook.com/sarah.leblanc.718/media_set?set=a.1010136919863898... and the news are starting to pick it up http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/25/is-this-what-bame-people-have-to-look-forward...
> Will the far righters start to emerge from under their stones (the even-more-far-right than Farage) and start attacking people when they don't see a mass removal of "migrant workers" next week? Will they feel they have been given the go-ahead by the success of the Brexit campaign? Will they feel the majority is behind them?
> I pray not.
It seems it's began.
Some chilling examples collected in this album https://www.facebook.com/sarah.leblanc.718/media_set?set=a.1010136919863898... and the news are starting to pick it up http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/25/is-this-what-bame-people-have-to-look-forward...
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In reply to Mr Lopez:
I am hearing rumours about this too - is it real or just brexit anguish in the social media echo-chamber? If it is real then it is very, very worrying. I think this is what it must have felt like in 1931 or so Germany. My wife is not white, nor are my kids. Is my family a target now? But I thought this was about leaving the EU not whether we should start sending people home? My wife said to me last night "We should have stayed in New Zealand when we had the chance. I'm sorry I made us come home.". Terrifying, divisive times.
I am hearing rumours about this too - is it real or just brexit anguish in the social media echo-chamber? If it is real then it is very, very worrying. I think this is what it must have felt like in 1931 or so Germany. My wife is not white, nor are my kids. Is my family a target now? But I thought this was about leaving the EU not whether we should start sending people home? My wife said to me last night "We should have stayed in New Zealand when we had the chance. I'm sorry I made us come home.". Terrifying, divisive times.
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In reply to Big Ger:
No, not really, I was just trying to return a fraction of the pointless irritation you dole out on here. I know it does me no credit but it was worth it.
> Yeah, sure.
No, not really, I was just trying to return a fraction of the pointless irritation you dole out on here. I know it does me no credit but it was worth it.
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In reply to Mr Lopez:
Sadly inevitable. Similar to what has happened to gay people in Russia since they changed the law a couple of years ago. The bigots are enabled and emboldened.
> It seems it's began.
> Some chilling examples collected in this album https://www.facebook.com/sarah.leblanc.718/media_set?set=a.1010136919863898... and the news are starting to pick it up http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/25/is-this-what-bame-people-have-to-look-forward...
Sadly inevitable. Similar to what has happened to gay people in Russia since they changed the law a couple of years ago. The bigots are enabled and emboldened.
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In reply to Pete Pozman:
Thinking about this further, perhaps it is an inevitable pendulum back from the climate we have had where many people feel that they have been forbidden from even mentioning immigration or nationality for fear of being labelled a filthy racist. I'm not condoning it - just trying to understand what is going on.
Thinking about this further, perhaps it is an inevitable pendulum back from the climate we have had where many people feel that they have been forbidden from even mentioning immigration or nationality for fear of being labelled a filthy racist. I'm not condoning it - just trying to understand what is going on.
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In reply to Lusk:
I think you're being overconfident. You don't need to look far back in history to see that this is not guaranteed.
The fact that we committed to a major historical decision on the back of a campaign fuelled by xenophobia and lies should worry you. It worries me.
All the far rights groups have taken heart and will build on this.
When we point it out we are now being told it's not respectful, anti-British etc etc... and THAT is how you end up with gentle and tolerant people supporting fascist ideas, by giving up and giving in.
> Yes, there is a loony element in this country, they're a minority and always will be.
I think you're being overconfident. You don't need to look far back in history to see that this is not guaranteed.
The fact that we committed to a major historical decision on the back of a campaign fuelled by xenophobia and lies should worry you. It worries me.
All the far rights groups have taken heart and will build on this.
When we point it out we are now being told it's not respectful, anti-British etc etc... and THAT is how you end up with gentle and tolerant people supporting fascist ideas, by giving up and giving in.
Post edited at 10:28
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In reply to Mr Lopez:
Was about to post your first link. I find it incredible that so many UKCers are in complete denial that things might go very wrong.
Was about to post your first link. I find it incredible that so many UKCers are in complete denial that things might go very wrong.
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In reply to Yanis Nayu:
I only express my my views, some disagree with them, but luckily the majority here are able to discuss these thought pleasantly. You are not obvs.
Well, whatever butters your muffin. Strange lad.
> No, not really, I was just trying to return a fraction of the pointless irritation you dole out on here.
I only express my my views, some disagree with them, but luckily the majority here are able to discuss these thought pleasantly. You are not obvs.
> I know it does me no credit but it was worth it.
Well, whatever butters your muffin. Strange lad.
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In reply to Big Ger:
Yeah right.
> I only express my my views, some disagree with them, but luckily the majority here are able to discuss these thought pleasantly. You are not obvs
Yeah right.
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In reply to Pete Pozman:
I think some of the least tolerant in the UK have come out of the wood work in the past couple of years, especially in Scotland with the yes campaign, or the far left supporters of Corbyn, or the muppets cheered on by the likes of Russell Brand or Westwood, who think they have the right to take to streets and do damage etc.. if some thing happens in democracy they don't like. Hatred comes in many forms, for many different things.
I think some of the least tolerant in the UK have come out of the wood work in the past couple of years, especially in Scotland with the yes campaign, or the far left supporters of Corbyn, or the muppets cheered on by the likes of Russell Brand or Westwood, who think they have the right to take to streets and do damage etc.. if some thing happens in democracy they don't like. Hatred comes in many forms, for many different things.
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In reply to Bobling:
And now everyone who calls anyone out on their bigotry is met with 'you can't me a racist I just have concerns about immigration'.
Well if they're shouting at people in the street to 'go home' because they look vaguely foreign... then they are filthy racists.
> Thinking about this further, perhaps it is an inevitable pendulum back from the climate we have had where many people feel that they have been forbidden from even mentioning immigration or nationality for fear of being labelled a filthy racist. I'm not condoning it - just trying to understand what is going on.
And now everyone who calls anyone out on their bigotry is met with 'you can't me a racist I just have concerns about immigration'.
Well if they're shouting at people in the street to 'go home' because they look vaguely foreign... then they are filthy racists.
Post edited at 11:32
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In reply to FreshSlate:
And what about the other way around?
There has been a few times in my local area, a white person has been subject to a racist attack or abuse, by people from differing cultures or countries with different levels of acceptable behaviour. But because the victim is white, it's not deemed as such.
Racism is a two way street.
What about the statistics that show certain areas to have an increase in crime ny people from other backgrounds, is it racist to use that statistic? Or is it not ok for the police to upset people?
And what about the other way around?
There has been a few times in my local area, a white person has been subject to a racist attack or abuse, by people from differing cultures or countries with different levels of acceptable behaviour. But because the victim is white, it's not deemed as such.
Racism is a two way street.
What about the statistics that show certain areas to have an increase in crime ny people from other backgrounds, is it racist to use that statistic? Or is it not ok for the police to upset people?
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In reply to Bootrock: From another post:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-eu-referendum-racial-...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-eu-referendum-racial-...
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In reply to Pete Pozman:
well, I was down in my local greasy spoon (run by a foreigner) for lunch on Saturday with my wife and daughter, when one young man kicked off and started shouting and gesturing, about how we won the referendum, English and proud of it, mocked some customers because of accent, guardian reading, Lidl shopping etc. Accused an Asian guy of being racist because he's white and English. Other customers tried to argue back, including other English customers, he managed a good rant for about 10 mins, not making much sense, while the owner called the police. never seen this happen before in Lewisham (an inner city London borough - very mixed, labour stronghold, and one of the poorer London boroughs).
well, I was down in my local greasy spoon (run by a foreigner) for lunch on Saturday with my wife and daughter, when one young man kicked off and started shouting and gesturing, about how we won the referendum, English and proud of it, mocked some customers because of accent, guardian reading, Lidl shopping etc. Accused an Asian guy of being racist because he's white and English. Other customers tried to argue back, including other English customers, he managed a good rant for about 10 mins, not making much sense, while the owner called the police. never seen this happen before in Lewisham (an inner city London borough - very mixed, labour stronghold, and one of the poorer London boroughs).
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In reply to Pete Pozman:
Right now, its given the knuckle scrapers some sort of voice. Adding the phrases "we voted you out" "we won the referendum" etc to their armoury of gobshite phrases. Once the dust has settled and any post Brexit deal turns out to be much less xenophobic than they anticipated and they become the same ostracised voice as they always have been, normality hopefully will resume. My wish is that right now it gets stamped on hard, whilst they are feeling confident in spouting their rubbish, and are more out in the open.
Right now, its given the knuckle scrapers some sort of voice. Adding the phrases "we voted you out" "we won the referendum" etc to their armoury of gobshite phrases. Once the dust has settled and any post Brexit deal turns out to be much less xenophobic than they anticipated and they become the same ostracised voice as they always have been, normality hopefully will resume. My wish is that right now it gets stamped on hard, whilst they are feeling confident in spouting their rubbish, and are more out in the open.
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In reply to Bellie:
The Brexit vote, the Breaking Point Poster, "Take Back Control of our Borders" etc have given them a mandate for hatred and violence. The knuckle scrapers are ready to be used by much more subtle and cunning operators. Farage gets others to voice his message (with occasional lapses). And Boris has a history of using knuckle scrapers ....and knuckle dusters from what I've read elsewhere on this forum.
I'm not willing to get over it and move on. This is a time of real danger.
The Brexit vote, the Breaking Point Poster, "Take Back Control of our Borders" etc have given them a mandate for hatred and violence. The knuckle scrapers are ready to be used by much more subtle and cunning operators. Farage gets others to voice his message (with occasional lapses). And Boris has a history of using knuckle scrapers ....and knuckle dusters from what I've read elsewhere on this forum.
I'm not willing to get over it and move on. This is a time of real danger.
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In reply to Lusk:
He's not talking about Leave voters who aren't racist, but racist people who'll have felt emboldened by voting leave and winning.
Like what has happened here presumably...
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/bbc-sima-kotecha-post-brexit-racist-a...
> I agree with BG.
> Do you honestly think that we would sink that low to what you're suggesting?
> Yes, there is a loony element in this country, they're a minority and always will be.
> I'm disappointed that you should harbour such thoughts about us.
> Do you honestly think that we would sink that low to what you're suggesting?
> Yes, there is a loony element in this country, they're a minority and always will be.
> I'm disappointed that you should harbour such thoughts about us.
He's not talking about Leave voters who aren't racist, but racist people who'll have felt emboldened by voting leave and winning.
Like what has happened here presumably...
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/bbc-sima-kotecha-post-brexit-racist-a...
Post edited at 18:01
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In reply to Pete Pozman:
Not sure why you've got a 3:1 ratio of dislikes to likes, given that you've expressed a desire for their not to be an increase in hate, and, demonstrably, your fears have been proved correct.
> Will the far righters start to emerge from under their stones (the even-more-far-right than Farage) and start attacking people when they don't see a mass removal of "migrant workers" next week? Will they feel they have been given the go-ahead by the success of the Brexit campaign? Will they feel the majority is behind them?
> I pray not.
Not sure why you've got a 3:1 ratio of dislikes to likes, given that you've expressed a desire for their not to be an increase in hate, and, demonstrably, your fears have been proved correct.
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In reply to Bellie:
Excellent point.
> Right now, its given the knuckle scrapers some sort of voice. Adding the phrases "we voted you out" "we won the referendum" etc to their armoury of gobshite phrases. Once the dust has settled and any post Brexit deal turns out to be much less xenophobic than they anticipated and they become the same ostracised voice as they always have been, normality hopefully will resume. My wish is that right now it gets stamped on hard, whilst they are feeling confident in spouting their rubbish, and are more out in the open.
Excellent point.
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In reply to Bootrock:
That's very bad.
Of course it is.
This sentence doesn't quite make sense, but it depends on how one approaches things, in deciding that if crime is higher in areas with certain ethnic groups, you need to work out whether there's socia-economic factors at work as well, with crime generally being higher in poorer areas. Currently there's a mixed race area or two in Sheffield which has problems with Asian youths being anti-social. On the Sheffield forums, people can get into heated debates about whether it's racist to say they're Asian youths when other races live there, but when you look at what's happening, for specifically where is being talked about - it is Asian youths causing the trouble, which isn't at all the same thing as saying in a blanket way that 'Asian youths cause trouble'. There's other areas in the city (mixed race) where there 'aren't' Asian youths causing trouble, despite enough Asian families living there for them to do so if they really wanted to.
> And what about the other way around?
> There has been a few times in my local area, a white person has been subject to a racist attack or abuse, by people from differing cultures or countries with different levels of acceptable behaviour. But because the victim is white, it's not deemed as such.
That's very bad.
> Racism is a two way street.
Of course it is.
> What about the statistics that show certain areas to have an increase in crime ny people from other backgrounds, is it racist to use that statistic? Or is it not ok for the police to upset people?
This sentence doesn't quite make sense, but it depends on how one approaches things, in deciding that if crime is higher in areas with certain ethnic groups, you need to work out whether there's socia-economic factors at work as well, with crime generally being higher in poorer areas. Currently there's a mixed race area or two in Sheffield which has problems with Asian youths being anti-social. On the Sheffield forums, people can get into heated debates about whether it's racist to say they're Asian youths when other races live there, but when you look at what's happening, for specifically where is being talked about - it is Asian youths causing the trouble, which isn't at all the same thing as saying in a blanket way that 'Asian youths cause trouble'. There's other areas in the city (mixed race) where there 'aren't' Asian youths causing trouble, despite enough Asian families living there for them to do so if they really wanted to.
Post edited at 18:23
1
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In reply to Trevers:
I heard that too, he's a disgrace, but that's the sort of people and argument they've been putting forward, for us to come out. "Look at them they get everything, you've got nowt, don't you think you should have what they've got?"
Not, "look at the chances we're giving people and if you vote for us, you'll have a chance at that too. You have to work at it (WTF!!!) but you can do it too".
> Listening to Any Questions. UKIP MEP Steven is stirring up quite a vicious atmosphere. He's been attacking middle class, young people simply for having opportunities and has just claimed that this vote has assured a better future for working class young people. Quite disgusting comments.
I heard that too, he's a disgrace, but that's the sort of people and argument they've been putting forward, for us to come out. "Look at them they get everything, you've got nowt, don't you think you should have what they've got?"
Not, "look at the chances we're giving people and if you vote for us, you'll have a chance at that too. You have to work at it (WTF!!!) but you can do it too".
1
In reply to Pete Pozman:
Because it never happened before the referendum?
"It is unclear whether the referendum result has brought about a rise in hostility, or if it is just a case of the sentiment being highlighted more since Friday."
It's not a referendum issue, it's a common decency and education issue.
But maybe people have become so sick of being force fed multi culturism, and political correctness, that they are striking back?
How many racial attacks on white people are there? That don't get recorded as racially motivated attacks? Because you "can't be racist towards white people"
Maybe people are fed up of the double standards.
A man preaching from a bible is arrested for racial hatred yet a Muslim preaching for the death of everyone that opposes Islam, is "freedom of speech"
Without getting into specific crimes and a he said, she said conversation.
A friend of my acted in self defence against a Man from another country (doesn't matter where, or what colour he was) after he was assaulted by both him and the man's girlfriend, yet he was charged with racially aggravated assault.
Despite earlier in the evening the very same man bragging about having a knife and making threats to people and the police did sweet F all.
The police are too scared to act against certain groups of people because the backlash. They ignore statistics and criminal trends in favour of not upsetting people in fear of "appearing racist".
Prime Example:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal
Wonder why trump is rising in popularity? He's a dick, but people have got to a point where they are fed up and angry and are being pushed to extreme measures.
You can't be so naive to proclaim that all British People(or leave voters) are racist and all EU migrants are law abiding nice people.
People can be dicks. What makes them a dick is them being a dick, not where they come from.
Because it never happened before the referendum?
"It is unclear whether the referendum result has brought about a rise in hostility, or if it is just a case of the sentiment being highlighted more since Friday."
It's not a referendum issue, it's a common decency and education issue.
But maybe people have become so sick of being force fed multi culturism, and political correctness, that they are striking back?
How many racial attacks on white people are there? That don't get recorded as racially motivated attacks? Because you "can't be racist towards white people"
Maybe people are fed up of the double standards.
A man preaching from a bible is arrested for racial hatred yet a Muslim preaching for the death of everyone that opposes Islam, is "freedom of speech"
Without getting into specific crimes and a he said, she said conversation.
A friend of my acted in self defence against a Man from another country (doesn't matter where, or what colour he was) after he was assaulted by both him and the man's girlfriend, yet he was charged with racially aggravated assault.
Despite earlier in the evening the very same man bragging about having a knife and making threats to people and the police did sweet F all.
The police are too scared to act against certain groups of people because the backlash. They ignore statistics and criminal trends in favour of not upsetting people in fear of "appearing racist".
Prime Example:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal
Wonder why trump is rising in popularity? He's a dick, but people have got to a point where they are fed up and angry and are being pushed to extreme measures.
You can't be so naive to proclaim that all British People(or leave voters) are racist and all EU migrants are law abiding nice people.
People can be dicks. What makes them a dick is them being a dick, not where they come from.
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In reply to Timmd:
For what it's worth I know people in Scotlabd who voted remain, purely for the 2nd referendum, so they can "send the English migrants back home" and other such unpleasant statements about English people (and the rather anti English undertone of the first Indy referendum)
Is such a statement racist? Will it be treated similarly to the afore mentioned racial slurs?
I doubt it.
For what it's worth I know people in Scotlabd who voted remain, purely for the 2nd referendum, so they can "send the English migrants back home" and other such unpleasant statements about English people (and the rather anti English undertone of the first Indy referendum)
Is such a statement racist? Will it be treated similarly to the afore mentioned racial slurs?
I doubt it.
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In reply to Bootrock:
It definitely sounds xenophobic.
I think I'm the same race as my Scottish grandma though, being part Scottish - Irish and English (white-British).
It definitely sounds xenophobic.
I think I'm the same race as my Scottish grandma though, being part Scottish - Irish and English (white-British).
Post edited at 20:49
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In reply to Bootrock:
My dad came from Eastern Europe and never lost his accent. There was coverage on Channel 4 of someone being abused because they weren't talking English properly.
This is personal. I am afraid. But I am not going to take it. I am going to try and get our politicians to stuff the referendum where it belongs: up Boris Johnson's fat proktos.
Being such a fine scholar he'll know what I mean.
I never wanted Britain to go to hell but that's where Brexit is sending it.
My dad came from Eastern Europe and never lost his accent. There was coverage on Channel 4 of someone being abused because they weren't talking English properly.
This is personal. I am afraid. But I am not going to take it. I am going to try and get our politicians to stuff the referendum where it belongs: up Boris Johnson's fat proktos.
Being such a fine scholar he'll know what I mean.
I never wanted Britain to go to hell but that's where Brexit is sending it.
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In reply to Pete Pozman:
Brexit has just unearthed a very unpleasant side of UK society that has been simmering for a very long time. What needs to happen is that the law is fully applied to criminal acts, ( regardless of the perpetrator's ethnicity), to show this won't be tolerated. Ignoring the outcome of the referendum won't make everything all nice again.
> My dad came from Eastern Europe and never lost his accent. There was coverage on Channel 4 of someone being abused because they weren't talking English properly.
> This is personal. I am afraid. But I am not going to take it. I am going to try and get our politicians to stuff the referendum where it belongs: up Boris Johnson's fat proktos.
> Being such a fine scholar he'll know what I mean.
> I never wanted Britain to go to hell but that's where Brexit is sending it.
Brexit has just unearthed a very unpleasant side of UK society that has been simmering for a very long time. What needs to happen is that the law is fully applied to criminal acts, ( regardless of the perpetrator's ethnicity), to show this won't be tolerated. Ignoring the outcome of the referendum won't make everything all nice again.
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In reply to Ridge:
It was simmering back in the 70's when I was leafleting for the Anti -Nazi League. It bubbled over after Powell's rivers of blood speech in the 60's when a plausible demagogue lent it spurious validity. It is always there but it is our duty to keep it far below the surface. Brexit has been like a bomb on a fault line. Cameron already has blood on his hands. He can't just smirk and walk away. He has to do something now while he has chance to make some amends.
It was simmering back in the 70's when I was leafleting for the Anti -Nazi League. It bubbled over after Powell's rivers of blood speech in the 60's when a plausible demagogue lent it spurious validity. It is always there but it is our duty to keep it far below the surface. Brexit has been like a bomb on a fault line. Cameron already has blood on his hands. He can't just smirk and walk away. He has to do something now while he has chance to make some amends.
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In reply to Bootrock:
About 5 years ago we had an issue with Muslim extremists, they were given ASBOs for far less than death threats, and 3 of them got locked up for spouting hatred and trying to tell people what to do.
About 5 years ago we had an issue with Muslim extremists, they were given ASBOs for far less than death threats, and 3 of them got locked up for spouting hatred and trying to tell people what to do.
In reply to Pete Pozman:
That's a damn shame indeed. But it's not a leave problem.
It's always been a problem since before the Leave referendum. That's not an excuse for people's ignorance, but it's not the cause of it.
Ridge makes a much better way of articlating it than I ever could.
That's a damn shame indeed. But it's not a leave problem.
It's always been a problem since before the Leave referendum. That's not an excuse for people's ignorance, but it's not the cause of it.
Ridge makes a much better way of articlating it than I ever could.
In reply to Lusk:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36643786
Just have a look at that.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36643786
Just have a look at that.
Post edited at 23:14
In reply to Heike:
I don't doubt it, and unfortunately there has almost certainly been an increase in the last few days, and the perpetrators should be prosecuted.
However, it's nothing new, just been getting extra media coverage at the moment, for obvious reasons.
One of the comments in a link someone posted earlier, to paraphrase, 'Try being black, we've been suffering this for years.'
These scumbags are a tiny minority. The vast, vast majority of people in the UK are decent and friendly.
I don't doubt it, and unfortunately there has almost certainly been an increase in the last few days, and the perpetrators should be prosecuted.
However, it's nothing new, just been getting extra media coverage at the moment, for obvious reasons.
One of the comments in a link someone posted earlier, to paraphrase, 'Try being black, we've been suffering this for years.'
These scumbags are a tiny minority. The vast, vast majority of people in the UK are decent and friendly.
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In reply to Pete Pozman:
There is a greater power in political speech than is often recognised despite the widespread view that politicians aren't listened to, or their words are some form of an irrelevance.
Any view propagated within mainstream debate can embolden those on the extremes who feel validated by it. The most simple and obvious is when groups of 'them' are pointed out as causing our problems and should be prevented or controlled in some way. This is where some of the fear of the open discussion about immigration stems from and i think we have seen some of the payback of Farrage's rhetoric already as others have said. Sadly it limits sensible open discussion about difficult issues due to the minority of awful people at the very fringes.
This is true not just for views on race but on any extreme views, but it is more immediately obvious with racisim and consequent violence or intolerance than others.
There is a greater power in political speech than is often recognised despite the widespread view that politicians aren't listened to, or their words are some form of an irrelevance.
Any view propagated within mainstream debate can embolden those on the extremes who feel validated by it. The most simple and obvious is when groups of 'them' are pointed out as causing our problems and should be prevented or controlled in some way. This is where some of the fear of the open discussion about immigration stems from and i think we have seen some of the payback of Farrage's rhetoric already as others have said. Sadly it limits sensible open discussion about difficult issues due to the minority of awful people at the very fringes.
This is true not just for views on race but on any extreme views, but it is more immediately obvious with racisim and consequent violence or intolerance than others.
In reply to Pete Pozman:
Here's something you may or may not like to consider.
If you accuse a genuine racist of racism, will s/he;
a) Suddenly change their views and join www.standuptoracism.org.uk/ ?
b) Not give a toss?
If you accuse a genuinely nice person, one without a racist bone in their body, of racism, due to them having different viewpoint on the politics/bureaucracy/ finances of the EU, will s/he;
a) Suddenly change their views and join the "Remain" team?
b) Be insulted and become more belligerent and forceful in their EU opposition.
Here's something you may or may not like to consider.
If you accuse a genuine racist of racism, will s/he;
a) Suddenly change their views and join www.standuptoracism.org.uk/ ?
b) Not give a toss?
If you accuse a genuinely nice person, one without a racist bone in their body, of racism, due to them having different viewpoint on the politics/bureaucracy/ finances of the EU, will s/he;
a) Suddenly change their views and join the "Remain" team?
b) Be insulted and become more belligerent and forceful in their EU opposition.
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In reply to Lusk:
I don't doubt they are, Lusk. I don't know how old you are?? I have lived here for 22 years and have never been "assaulted", but people have been, in the last few years, unfortunately,.... been making uncomfortable remarks. There are many - mainly older folk in the Uk who make continuous jokes about "not mentioning the war" (something I have suffered from) which is a bit bizarre as we as kids in Germany (70s/80s) have been brought up with nothing else, but fighting war and aiming for cooperation. I am totally against war and have been against the last several the Uk has been involved. Frankly I was born several decades after this war and am not into wars. That has not stopped the UK in indulging in any further wars (Iraq, Afghanistan, Desert Fox, Lybia) None of which I have supported.
This is my country, even if people are trying to say now in 2016 that it is not. I live here with my husband (English - although he has lived in Scotland for 23 years and feels like this is his home) , my son (Scottish). We all feel (felt ) like Europeans first and foremost. I am very sad that people now bang on about "these foreigners coming to steal our jobs". I came with a very specialised degree and managed to get a job on the back of that and job experience and I now work at a University in Scotland. In addition, we have many people in jobs who are doing them because nobody else in the UK would, e.g fruit-picking in Scotland, vegetable growing in middle England and hospitality /elderly care all over the UK. So , thank you to all of these people. They keep the place going and to tell them "they are stealing British jobs" is utter lunacy.
I don't doubt they are, Lusk. I don't know how old you are?? I have lived here for 22 years and have never been "assaulted", but people have been, in the last few years, unfortunately,.... been making uncomfortable remarks. There are many - mainly older folk in the Uk who make continuous jokes about "not mentioning the war" (something I have suffered from) which is a bit bizarre as we as kids in Germany (70s/80s) have been brought up with nothing else, but fighting war and aiming for cooperation. I am totally against war and have been against the last several the Uk has been involved. Frankly I was born several decades after this war and am not into wars. That has not stopped the UK in indulging in any further wars (Iraq, Afghanistan, Desert Fox, Lybia) None of which I have supported.
This is my country, even if people are trying to say now in 2016 that it is not. I live here with my husband (English - although he has lived in Scotland for 23 years and feels like this is his home) , my son (Scottish). We all feel (felt ) like Europeans first and foremost. I am very sad that people now bang on about "these foreigners coming to steal our jobs". I came with a very specialised degree and managed to get a job on the back of that and job experience and I now work at a University in Scotland. In addition, we have many people in jobs who are doing them because nobody else in the UK would, e.g fruit-picking in Scotland, vegetable growing in middle England and hospitality /elderly care all over the UK. So , thank you to all of these people. They keep the place going and to tell them "they are stealing British jobs" is utter lunacy.
Post edited at 01:14
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In reply to Big Ger:
This is a stupid cliche. Everyone has racist bones in their body.
jcm
> one without a racist bone in their body,
This is a stupid cliche. Everyone has racist bones in their body.
jcm
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In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Oh dear god, REALLY!?!?!
You really think the point I was making founders on that argument?
No wonder your side lost the debate.
Oh dear god, REALLY!?!?!
You really think the point I was making founders on that argument?
No wonder your side lost the debate.
Post edited at 01:20
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In reply to Heike:
So you can apply for residence as a spouse, with a long standing history in the UK, and with valued skills.
Yet you are fearful of being "thrown out".
Why do you not apply for citizenship?
So you can apply for residence as a spouse, with a long standing history in the UK, and with valued skills.
Yet you are fearful of being "thrown out".
Why do you not apply for citizenship?
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In reply to Big Ger:
No, I was mainly just pointing out that you were speaking in stupid cliches.
Implicit in my reply, though, was the point that everyone is racist to some degree. Intelligent people who get called racists react by assessing the merits of the allegation and considering to what extent their views and actions are indeed motivated by racism. Others don't; on the contrary they tend to say things like 'I haven't got a racist bone in my body'. If you want to influence the behaviour of people who are behaving in a racist manner, you need to consider whether you are dealing with type A or type B (though there's a continuum, obviously).
It's interesting how touchy Leave voters are about this. No-one, literally no-one, is suggesting that all Leave voters are racist. Many people however seem anxious to deny that a lot of them are, which seems ridiculous to me. Not a mistake the Leave campaign itself made; on the contrary they were playing hard on racist feelings - the Turkey video, Farage's poster, etc.
jcm
No, I was mainly just pointing out that you were speaking in stupid cliches.
Implicit in my reply, though, was the point that everyone is racist to some degree. Intelligent people who get called racists react by assessing the merits of the allegation and considering to what extent their views and actions are indeed motivated by racism. Others don't; on the contrary they tend to say things like 'I haven't got a racist bone in my body'. If you want to influence the behaviour of people who are behaving in a racist manner, you need to consider whether you are dealing with type A or type B (though there's a continuum, obviously).
It's interesting how touchy Leave voters are about this. No-one, literally no-one, is suggesting that all Leave voters are racist. Many people however seem anxious to deny that a lot of them are, which seems ridiculous to me. Not a mistake the Leave campaign itself made; on the contrary they were playing hard on racist feelings - the Turkey video, Farage's poster, etc.
jcm
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In reply to Big Ger:
I'm sure Heike can speak for herself, but she didn't say she was fearful of being thrown out; she said that the present rise in xenophobia makes her feel sad. Doesn't it you?
jcm
I'm sure Heike can speak for herself, but she didn't say she was fearful of being thrown out; she said that the present rise in xenophobia makes her feel sad. Doesn't it you?
jcm
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In reply to Heike:
I'm 56, 6 foot tall and white, Yorkshire born and bred.
I have been 'assaulted' by black men when I lived in London in the 80s, buying drugs in Brixton, we had the back of our coats slashed to ribbons by very sharp knives, which we only spotted later! OOOH shit, they don't like us!
I've (We) since spent the last 30 years living in Manchester, one of the most racially diverse places in the UK, I've thrashed a club full of black dudes at pool, (men don't like losing!), drink in West Indian pubs etc etc etc
Britain is NOT a racist country, don't believe the bullshit that some want you to believe.
I'm 56, 6 foot tall and white, Yorkshire born and bred.
I have been 'assaulted' by black men when I lived in London in the 80s, buying drugs in Brixton, we had the back of our coats slashed to ribbons by very sharp knives, which we only spotted later! OOOH shit, they don't like us!
I've (We) since spent the last 30 years living in Manchester, one of the most racially diverse places in the UK, I've thrashed a club full of black dudes at pool, (men don't like losing!), drink in West Indian pubs etc etc etc
Britain is NOT a racist country, don't believe the bullshit that some want you to believe.
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In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
I was making a point, does everything that we post have to be entirely original?
Do you really think that anyone would not know that?
You haven't read the posts of MG and "I can eat 50 eggs" then I take it?
I think you're avoiding my point as it implies that the "remain" team should take some responsibility for their own campaigns, here and elsewhere
> No, I was mainly just pointing out that you were speaking in stupid cliches.
I was making a point, does everything that we post have to be entirely original?
> Implicit in my reply, though, was the point that everyone is racist to some degree.
Do you really think that anyone would not know that?
> It's interesting how touchy Leave voters are about this. No-one, literally no-one, is suggesting that all Leave voters are racist.
You haven't read the posts of MG and "I can eat 50 eggs" then I take it?
I think you're avoiding my point as it implies that the "remain" team should take some responsibility for their own campaigns, here and elsewhere
2
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
In other threads Heike has indicated she is fearful of being removed or told to leave.
Also complained about her not having a vote.
> I'm sure Heike can speak for herself, but she didn't say she was fearful of being thrown out; she said that the present rise in xenophobia makes her feel sad. Doesn't it you?
> jcm
In other threads Heike has indicated she is fearful of being removed or told to leave.
Also complained about her not having a vote.
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In reply to Big Ger:
Why should I? I have lived here under the mandate of free exchange and travel across the EU - of which all countries have benefited (including the hundreds of thousands UK citizens and pensioners in the Costa Blanca, France and elsewhere) It has been a wonderful thing for people across the EU and UK.. Ok, if the Brits insist I will have to get it or more likely we will leave, I can not live in a climate of hatred.
Yes, I have been appalled by the fear that has been created, but I still haven't applied for citizenship. I am a European, I feel mostly like a Scot and a German, and so far I have had no problems. I have faith in that we can continue to keep this great relationship even if it is just between Scotland and the UK. I have my EU driving license which allowed me to drive everywhere including minibuses ( as I am old enough), I have been able to vote in the Scottish and EU elections. The only election they won't let me vote in is the UK ones and that's why I considered getting the UK citizenship. However, it costs about 1500 pounds last time I checked. A lot of money.
Why should I? I have lived here under the mandate of free exchange and travel across the EU - of which all countries have benefited (including the hundreds of thousands UK citizens and pensioners in the Costa Blanca, France and elsewhere) It has been a wonderful thing for people across the EU and UK.. Ok, if the Brits insist I will have to get it or more likely we will leave, I can not live in a climate of hatred.
Yes, I have been appalled by the fear that has been created, but I still haven't applied for citizenship. I am a European, I feel mostly like a Scot and a German, and so far I have had no problems. I have faith in that we can continue to keep this great relationship even if it is just between Scotland and the UK. I have my EU driving license which allowed me to drive everywhere including minibuses ( as I am old enough), I have been able to vote in the Scottish and EU elections. The only election they won't let me vote in is the UK ones and that's why I considered getting the UK citizenship. However, it costs about 1500 pounds last time I checked. A lot of money.
Post edited at 02:12
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In reply to Lusk:
Sorry, I don't get your point. I have my own eyes, and frankly I don't understand what you are saying. I probably work at the most ethnically diverse University with all sorts of people (although i haven't thrashed them or slashed them, just had a cup of tea together, but each to their own...) It is a great environment.
From my observations Britain is quickly BECOMING a racist country right now and we ( if you agree) have to do something about it to stop it happening. Times are changing and this is the reality now.
Sorry, I don't get your point. I have my own eyes, and frankly I don't understand what you are saying. I probably work at the most ethnically diverse University with all sorts of people (although i haven't thrashed them or slashed them, just had a cup of tea together, but each to their own...) It is a great environment.
From my observations Britain is quickly BECOMING a racist country right now and we ( if you agree) have to do something about it to stop it happening. Times are changing and this is the reality now.
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In reply to dek:
What's z gt 2 do ws it??
> You're in the ezemcee....so you are now part of the 'establishment'
What's z gt 2 do ws it??
1
In reply to Big Ger:
Cliches are fine. Stupid cliches not so fine.
Yes, totally. There's a very widespread delusion that people are either racist or not. That's why the stupid cliche you deployed exists.
I must have missed them, I'm afraid.
The Remain campaign was f*cking terrible. It did not however imply that everyone who voted Leave was racist, although it certainly implied from time to time that Leave voters were happy to get into bed with racists, to vote in favour of those who deployed racist campaigning, and to accept the inevitable legitimisation of racism that would result from a Leave vote as collateral damage in return for whatever benefits they imagined leaving would bring. That may or may not have been tactically sensible, but it was certainly true.
jcm
> I was making a point, does everything that we post have to be entirely original?
Cliches are fine. Stupid cliches not so fine.
> Do you really think that anyone would not know that?
Yes, totally. There's a very widespread delusion that people are either racist or not. That's why the stupid cliche you deployed exists.
> You haven't read the posts of MG and "I can eat 50 eggs" then I take it?
I must have missed them, I'm afraid.
> I think you're avoiding my point as it implies that the "remain" team should take some responsibility for their own campaigns, here and elsewhere
The Remain campaign was f*cking terrible. It did not however imply that everyone who voted Leave was racist, although it certainly implied from time to time that Leave voters were happy to get into bed with racists, to vote in favour of those who deployed racist campaigning, and to accept the inevitable legitimisation of racism that would result from a Leave vote as collateral damage in return for whatever benefits they imagined leaving would bring. That may or may not have been tactically sensible, but it was certainly true.
jcm
1
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In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Well I've not come across it. It wasn't a 'cliche' BTW, it was hyperbole.
How very strange.
Agreed.
Tarring people with different political views as racist, just because some people who support the same cause may be racist, is an underhand and destructive insult to good people.
> Yes, totally. There's a very widespread delusion that people are either racist or not. That's why the stupid cliche you deployed exists.
Well I've not come across it. It wasn't a 'cliche' BTW, it was hyperbole.
> I must have missed them, I'm afraid.
How very strange.
> The Remain campaign was f*cking terrible.
Agreed.
> It did not however imply that everyone who voted Leave was racist, although it certainly implied from time to time that Leave voters were happy to get into bed with racists, to vote in favour of those who deployed racist campaigning, and to accept the inevitable legitimisation of racism that would result from a Leave vote as collateral damage in return for whatever benefits they imagined leaving would bring. That may or may not have been tactically sensible, but it was certainly true.
Tarring people with different political views as racist, just because some people who support the same cause may be racist, is an underhand and destructive insult to good people.
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In reply to Ridge:
I think there is a case to ignore it.
It was based on lies, we are seeing the back peddling.
Even EU delegates are now saying they don't think it will happen.
It is fantasy to think they can have the free market and points based immigration.
I wonder if Nissan do relocate to say Spain.. How many Sunderland workers would take a job there if allowed?
Major manufacturers like Nissan won't risk tariffs and slow trade. They'll watch this for now but you'll probably see no more investment in those plants until things sure up and that could cost them long term.
> Brexit has just unearthed a very unpleasant side of UK society that has been simmering for a very long time. What needs to happen is that the law is fully applied to criminal acts, ( regardless of the perpetrator's ethnicity), to show this won't be tolerated. Ignoring the outcome of the referendum won't make everything all nice again.
I think there is a case to ignore it.
It was based on lies, we are seeing the back peddling.
Even EU delegates are now saying they don't think it will happen.
It is fantasy to think they can have the free market and points based immigration.
I wonder if Nissan do relocate to say Spain.. How many Sunderland workers would take a job there if allowed?
Major manufacturers like Nissan won't risk tariffs and slow trade. They'll watch this for now but you'll probably see no more investment in those plants until things sure up and that could cost them long term.
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In reply to Big Ger:
You know very well UKIP and leave played the immigration card knowing it would garner support from the uninformed..
We all saw the guy in Barnsley who voted to stop Iraqis entering.. When the UK controls non EU immigration.
The 'the Turks are coming' ads.. When we all know that is a long long way off and of they did improve democracy and human rights would that not be better for European stability than another fundamental Islamic state?
You know very well UKIP and leave played the immigration card knowing it would garner support from the uninformed..
We all saw the guy in Barnsley who voted to stop Iraqis entering.. When the UK controls non EU immigration.
The 'the Turks are coming' ads.. When we all know that is a long long way off and of they did improve democracy and human rights would that not be better for European stability than another fundamental Islamic state?
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In reply to Roadrunner5:
Yes, I've never said anything to the contrary?
I've never said anything contrary to that either.
> You know very well UKIP and leave played the immigration card knowing it would garner support from the uninformed..
Yes, I've never said anything to the contrary?
> The 'the Turks are coming' ads.. When we all know that is a long long way off and of they did improve democracy and human rights would that not be better for European stability than another fundamental Islamic state?
I've never said anything contrary to that either.
In reply to Big Ger:
You've not but you seem to think that was not significant,
It's like 'well the people voted'., they did based on hate and lies, so it is entirely democratic to fight that. You can shout god wins law but it is very relevant. Hence the increase in race attacks. Which do you condemn?
You've not but you seem to think that was not significant,
It's like 'well the people voted'., they did based on hate and lies, so it is entirely democratic to fight that. You can shout god wins law but it is very relevant. Hence the increase in race attacks. Which do you condemn?
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In reply to Roadrunner5:
They may not have voted based on hate and lies, you over generalise again. Not only that, but if you believe that to be fair comment, then it would be equally fair to say the remain voters voted on "hate and lies", would it not?
> It's like 'well the people voted'., they did based on hate and lies, so it is entirely democratic to fight that. You can shout god wins law but it is very relevant. Hence the increase in race attacks. Which do you condemn?
They may not have voted based on hate and lies, you over generalise again. Not only that, but if you believe that to be fair comment, then it would be equally fair to say the remain voters voted on "hate and lies", would it not?
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In reply to MG:
I think I may owe you an apology, I think I've confused you handle with that of another poster.
> What, exactly, are you referring to?
I think I may owe you an apology, I think I've confused you handle with that of another poster.
In reply to Roadrunner5:
There's been no evidence, yet, of it being an "increase" in such attacks. The media are just portraying more of it, and only 1 side of the coin.
There's been local people attacked by
Either side for voting the opposite to each other. And indigenous people attacked by people from other countries in response to the vote.
In the 1st Scottish Indy ref, there was all sorts of people from either side attacking the other, yet the media only ever portrayed one side, the side they supported. And people who were on the other side, refused to believe any of the attacks happened.
Don't believe everything in the media, it's not about informative news, it's about making money and feeding gang mentality, whipping up a storm for the side they support. Why do you think you see a lot of unarticulated leave supports on the News, or even leave voters that have no spine and are suddenly saying they shouldn't have done it.
And to someone's point about "foreigners coming and doing the jobs people don't want", I know in my local area, I used to pick strawberries as a young lad, a lot of us did, then one year we were all told we couldn't, because the farmer was paying half what we were getting to People from outside the UK.
It's not a case of doing the jobs people don't want, but driving down low skilled wages maybe?
I seem to remember dominos pizza getting smashed for taking advantage of the system and of decent people. Purely for low labour, low costs and profit.
There's been no evidence, yet, of it being an "increase" in such attacks. The media are just portraying more of it, and only 1 side of the coin.
There's been local people attacked by
Either side for voting the opposite to each other. And indigenous people attacked by people from other countries in response to the vote.
In the 1st Scottish Indy ref, there was all sorts of people from either side attacking the other, yet the media only ever portrayed one side, the side they supported. And people who were on the other side, refused to believe any of the attacks happened.
Don't believe everything in the media, it's not about informative news, it's about making money and feeding gang mentality, whipping up a storm for the side they support. Why do you think you see a lot of unarticulated leave supports on the News, or even leave voters that have no spine and are suddenly saying they shouldn't have done it.
And to someone's point about "foreigners coming and doing the jobs people don't want", I know in my local area, I used to pick strawberries as a young lad, a lot of us did, then one year we were all told we couldn't, because the farmer was paying half what we were getting to People from outside the UK.
It's not a case of doing the jobs people don't want, but driving down low skilled wages maybe?
I seem to remember dominos pizza getting smashed for taking advantage of the system and of decent people. Purely for low labour, low costs and profit.
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In reply to Pete Pozman:
Might be difficult to achieve because I think right now he's probably shitting himself pretty hard.
> This is personal. I am afraid. But I am not going to take it. I am going to try and get our politicians to stuff the referendum where it belongs: up Boris Johnson's fat proktos.
Might be difficult to achieve because I think right now he's probably shitting himself pretty hard.
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In reply to Big Ger:
This is one of the problems with referendums - they result in a conflation of views from moderate to extreme, and the extreme views take over in the media, leaving no room for sensible discussion.
There is a need for a sensible, level-headed debate on immigration. Calling a referendum on "immigration" threw any possibility of that out the window.
> Tarring people with different political views as racist, just because some people who support the same cause may be racist, is an underhand and destructive insult to good people.
This is one of the problems with referendums - they result in a conflation of views from moderate to extreme, and the extreme views take over in the media, leaving no room for sensible discussion.
There is a need for a sensible, level-headed debate on immigration. Calling a referendum on "immigration" threw any possibility of that out the window.
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In reply to Bootrock:
Maybe you should blame the farmer not the workers. Maybe now we have minimum wage that wouldn't / shouldn't happen.
Maybe you should blame the farmer not the workers. Maybe now we have minimum wage that wouldn't / shouldn't happen.
> And to someone's point about "foreigners coming and doing the jobs people don't want", I know in my local area, I used to pick strawberries as a young lad, a lot of us did, then one year we were all told we couldn't, because the farmer was paying half what we were getting to People from outside the UK.
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In reply to Bootrock:
There was an interesting report a while back about the dodgy gangmaster companies providing farm labour. One thing which stood out was when they mentioned the rapidly changing nationalities. It wasnt a case of the just the locals not being hired but that the countries the foreign workers were coming from was being rapidly cycled through as each pool dried up due to the conditions and alternatives available.
not for abusing the word pizza? No justice.
> It's not a case of doing the jobs people don't want, but driving down low skilled wages maybe?
There was an interesting report a while back about the dodgy gangmaster companies providing farm labour. One thing which stood out was when they mentioned the rapidly changing nationalities. It wasnt a case of the just the locals not being hired but that the countries the foreign workers were coming from was being rapidly cycled through as each pool dried up due to the conditions and alternatives available.
> I seem to remember dominos pizza getting smashed for taking advantage of the system and of decent people.
not for abusing the word pizza? No justice.
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In reply to Trevers:
I thought it was called on UK membership of the EU, with immigration as one facet of that.
> There is a need for a sensible, level-headed debate on immigration. Calling a referendum on "immigration" threw any possibility of that out the window.
I thought it was called on UK membership of the EU, with immigration as one facet of that.
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In reply to Big Ger:
I put immigration in inverted commas, I believe you're intelligent enough to derive my meaning.
> I thought it was called on UK membership of the EU, with immigration as one facet of that.
I put immigration in inverted commas, I believe you're intelligent enough to derive my meaning.
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In reply to Pete Pozman:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/manchester-tram-racist-attack-abuse-video-footage-get-back-to-africa-teenage-boys-abuse-suspects-a7107466.html
Edit: Either this is somebody disliking the racism, or they don't think it's linked to Brexit beinf voted for. Thanks to the informative nature of dislikes....it's impossible to tell.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/manchester-tram-racist-attack-abuse-video-footage-get-back-to-africa-teenage-boys-abuse-suspects-a7107466.html
Edit: Either this is somebody disliking the racism, or they don't think it's linked to Brexit beinf voted for. Thanks to the informative nature of dislikes....it's impossible to tell.
Post edited at 16:34
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In reply to Timmd:
Because that sort of thing didn't happen before the referendum?
It's disgusting granted, but you can't say the Leave vote is the cause of it.
Because that sort of thing didn't happen before the referendum?
It's disgusting granted, but you can't say the Leave vote is the cause of it.
In reply to Bootrock:
No, but there's been an increase, and it'd be unwise to not think it may be related, as part of a way of figuring out what to do about it. I think.
It'd be following the pattern of what's happened in other countries, where once parties which seem to give the green light to certain view points (or might actually do) have success politically, people go on to express them more vocally in public.
Whether individual instances can be linked or not, that there's been a spike in instances is still significant, I think.
No, but there's been an increase, and it'd be unwise to not think it may be related, as part of a way of figuring out what to do about it. I think.
It'd be following the pattern of what's happened in other countries, where once parties which seem to give the green light to certain view points (or might actually do) have success politically, people go on to express them more vocally in public.
Whether individual instances can be linked or not, that there's been a spike in instances is still significant, I think.
Post edited at 17:03
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In reply to Timmd:
I accept that. And agree to an extent.
Increase? Or increase in exposure?
Where is the coverage of the opposite side of the coin?
People see what they want to see.
I accept that. And agree to an extent.
Increase? Or increase in exposure?
Where is the coverage of the opposite side of the coin?
People see what they want to see.
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In reply to Bootrock:
There's been an increase in reported incidents to the police, unless there's a coincidence in people starting to report incidents more on the same day that Brexit won, the other option is that Brexit winning has encouraged certain kinds of people to be more openly racist.
In a non sarcastic way, which is do you think is more plausible?
> I accept that. And agree to an extent.
> Increase? Or increase in exposure?
> Where is the coverage of the opposite side of the coin?
> People see what they want to see.
There's been an increase in reported incidents to the police, unless there's a coincidence in people starting to report incidents more on the same day that Brexit won, the other option is that Brexit winning has encouraged certain kinds of people to be more openly racist.
In a non sarcastic way, which is do you think is more plausible?
Post edited at 21:23
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In reply to Bootrock:
I think the words used in many instances have provided ample clues for all but those too blind to see.
I think the words used in many instances have provided ample clues for all but those too blind to see.
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In reply to Timmd:
Considering there's been more than a few reported cases of liberal left wing hipsters manufacturing situations and blogging of fictional instances to further reinforce their own agenda. I think it's a fair one to be sceptical. Especially with the amount of remainers that are throwing their toys out the pram.
It could well be a mix of the two. People like to follow trends on social media and share/blog/tweet whatever they feel the latest trend might be to boost their ego and make themselves look like they are doing something, when in actual fact they are just after the likes.
Sadly this sort of thing happened before the referendum and will continue to happen, by throwing around a blanket "racist" term isn't going to combat it.
Considering there's been more than a few reported cases of liberal left wing hipsters manufacturing situations and blogging of fictional instances to further reinforce their own agenda. I think it's a fair one to be sceptical. Especially with the amount of remainers that are throwing their toys out the pram.
It could well be a mix of the two. People like to follow trends on social media and share/blog/tweet whatever they feel the latest trend might be to boost their ego and make themselves look like they are doing something, when in actual fact they are just after the likes.
Sadly this sort of thing happened before the referendum and will continue to happen, by throwing around a blanket "racist" term isn't going to combat it.
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In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
"This is a stupid cliche. Everyone has racist bones in their body. "
Yes, I had an OTB recently and gave my racist bone a good shoeing. That'll learn it.
"This is a stupid cliche. Everyone has racist bones in their body. "
Yes, I had an OTB recently and gave my racist bone a good shoeing. That'll learn it.
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In reply to Bootrock:
Any violence where the attacker is motivated by race is a racist attack. That's a straight forward definition which isn't disputed.
Statistics referring to racial backgrounds are used all the time. Yes as you quote, in crime statistics, but also in medicine and other fields i.e. Caucasians have a much higher chance from suffering from cystic fibrosis and doctors will act on this. None of this is controversial at all.
I'm very sorry you live in a violent area, that sounds horrible.
> And what about the other way around?
> There has been a few times in my local area, a white person has been subject to a racist attack or abuse, by people from differing cultures or countries with different levels of acceptable behaviour. But because the victim is white, it's not deemed as such.
> Racism is a two way street.
> What about the statistics that show certain areas to have an increase in crime ny people from other backgrounds, is it racist to use that statistic? Or is it not ok for the police to upset people?
Any violence where the attacker is motivated by race is a racist attack. That's a straight forward definition which isn't disputed.
Statistics referring to racial backgrounds are used all the time. Yes as you quote, in crime statistics, but also in medicine and other fields i.e. Caucasians have a much higher chance from suffering from cystic fibrosis and doctors will act on this. None of this is controversial at all.
I'm very sorry you live in a violent area, that sounds horrible.
Post edited at 23:49
In reply to Lusk:
Well, I know most (hopefully) of this country are not racist, but there are unfortunately many. This is not a local phenomenon, it's the same in Germany and other European countries, but things like this referendum are giving the right wing a boost, e.g. my sister is in Politics in Germany and is fearing that what's happening right now with the UK/EU is only encouraging the extreme right across the EU. I personally have not had any racial hatred shown to me directly, but lots of remarks which I usually just ignore, like " Don't mention the war", "we won the war", "why are you you Germans so territorial and put your beach towel down on sun loungers"....I didn't even know what the last thing was all about before I came here as I have never been to a sun lounger/beach holiday in the first place I sincerely think the Brits and the Germans have so much in common, maybe that's why they are fighting all the time. Beer, football, sausages, a lot of common words; love of the countryside, music, arts and literature; mountains, motor sports and even human values. I am just going to focus on the positive from now on and am going to fight for what brings us together and not what makes us different. That is going to be what I am taking from this referendum. Let this be a wake-up call for keeping Europe together and out of a war (which we have had too many times)!
Well, I know most (hopefully) of this country are not racist, but there are unfortunately many. This is not a local phenomenon, it's the same in Germany and other European countries, but things like this referendum are giving the right wing a boost, e.g. my sister is in Politics in Germany and is fearing that what's happening right now with the UK/EU is only encouraging the extreme right across the EU. I personally have not had any racial hatred shown to me directly, but lots of remarks which I usually just ignore, like " Don't mention the war", "we won the war", "why are you you Germans so territorial and put your beach towel down on sun loungers"....I didn't even know what the last thing was all about before I came here as I have never been to a sun lounger/beach holiday in the first place I sincerely think the Brits and the Germans have so much in common, maybe that's why they are fighting all the time. Beer, football, sausages, a lot of common words; love of the countryside, music, arts and literature; mountains, motor sports and even human values. I am just going to focus on the positive from now on and am going to fight for what brings us together and not what makes us different. That is going to be what I am taking from this referendum. Let this be a wake-up call for keeping Europe together and out of a war (which we have had too many times)!
Post edited at 23:54
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In reply to Bootrock:
Back at you.
> indigenous people attacked by people from other countries in response to the vote.
> Please, link me. And don't send me a link to a newspaper article.
Back at you.
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In reply to Bootrock:
Here you go, a friend of a friend's experience this week:
''Just been witness to a hate crime against a taxi driver on the roundabout onto Bramhall lane, with some dickheads behind our taxi beeping, swearing, gesturing 'get out' and tailgating fast behind us... To the point where our taxi driver had to go through a red light (which they then proceeded to do too to scare us). Have reported it to the police and am gonna make a statement tomorrow. Our absolutely lovely and kind taxi driver Muhammad told us that he had experienced this every day since Brexit (and never before), but that he feels there is nothing he can do about it because he fears for his children, and doesn't want them to be targeted as a result. I'm so sad at the state of our country right now. I urge everyone who witnesses any hate crime to report it l, no matter how seemingly small it seems....''
An Asian taxi driver who's never before experience hostility, post Brexit suddenly does every day.
> Considering there's been more than a few reported cases of liberal left wing hipsters manufacturing situations and blogging of fictional instances to further reinforce their own agenda. I think it's a fair one to be sceptical. Especially with the amount of remainers that are throwing their toys out the pram.
> It could well be a mix of the two. People like to follow trends on social media and share/blog/tweet whatever they feel the latest trend might be to boost their ego and make themselves look like they are doing something, when in actual fact they are just after the likes.
> Sadly this sort of thing happened before the referendum and will continue to happen, by throwing around a blanket "racist" term isn't going to combat it.
Here you go, a friend of a friend's experience this week:
''Just been witness to a hate crime against a taxi driver on the roundabout onto Bramhall lane, with some dickheads behind our taxi beeping, swearing, gesturing 'get out' and tailgating fast behind us... To the point where our taxi driver had to go through a red light (which they then proceeded to do too to scare us). Have reported it to the police and am gonna make a statement tomorrow. Our absolutely lovely and kind taxi driver Muhammad told us that he had experienced this every day since Brexit (and never before), but that he feels there is nothing he can do about it because he fears for his children, and doesn't want them to be targeted as a result. I'm so sad at the state of our country right now. I urge everyone who witnesses any hate crime to report it l, no matter how seemingly small it seems....''
An Asian taxi driver who's never before experience hostility, post Brexit suddenly does every day.
Post edited at 23:38
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