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Was this down to incompetence or did he have a secret agenda?
Either way it seems he's in trouble. Kinnock has just joined those calling for a No Confidence motion against him as Leader of the Labour Party
Post edited at 17:26
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In reply to Trangia:
Kinnock will be furious - gravy train stops here Mr and Mrs Kinnock - I'm gutted for them.
Kinnock will be furious - gravy train stops here Mr and Mrs Kinnock - I'm gutted for them.
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In reply to Trangia:
By lacklustre support do you mean not slinging around insults and lying out of his arse like every other politician? I regard that as having dignity rather than being lacklustre.
By lacklustre support do you mean not slinging around insults and lying out of his arse like every other politician? I regard that as having dignity rather than being lacklustre.
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In reply to RyanOsborne:
Seconded,
If everyone else in the debate wasn't promising the apocalypse/nirvana based on the vote a considered 7/10 for remain would have seemed very reasonable. Effectively he said, I don't believe the eu is perfect but it's better than the alternative so on balance I'm voting in.
No mention of plagues of Turkish migrants or emergency budgets with massive tax rises, he must obviously be and apathetic fool... Say the daily mail.
Seconded,
If everyone else in the debate wasn't promising the apocalypse/nirvana based on the vote a considered 7/10 for remain would have seemed very reasonable. Effectively he said, I don't believe the eu is perfect but it's better than the alternative so on balance I'm voting in.
No mention of plagues of Turkish migrants or emergency budgets with massive tax rises, he must obviously be and apathetic fool... Say the daily mail.
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In reply to RyanOsborne:
I give you that he kept away from insults and lying, but his drive and passion for Remain as leader of the Party was unconvincing and pathetic. He did nothing to drum up enthusiasm for Remain, particularly amongst many working class voters. It would have been perfectly possible for him to have done this without reverting to insults and lying.
I give you that he kept away from insults and lying, but his drive and passion for Remain as leader of the Party was unconvincing and pathetic. He did nothing to drum up enthusiasm for Remain, particularly amongst many working class voters. It would have been perfectly possible for him to have done this without reverting to insults and lying.
Post edited at 17:53
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In reply to Trangia:
Quite. He is at least as responsible for this mess as Cameron. Incompetent fool with zero leadership capability.
Quite. He is at least as responsible for this mess as Cameron. Incompetent fool with zero leadership capability.
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In reply to Trangia:
I think he treated voters of both sides with respect, presented what he saw and allowed people to decide. As a politician that is what he should be doing, not the mud slinging in fighting bullshit that characterised most of the debate.
I think he treated voters of both sides with respect, presented what he saw and allowed people to decide. As a politician that is what he should be doing, not the mud slinging in fighting bullshit that characterised most of the debate.
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In reply to gethin_allen:
The trouble was, he didn't specifically say that; it would have been better if he had. Better still if he'd said something like 'It needs overhaul and it needs reform, but it's worth staying in to reform it. Every worker in the UK benefits from employment protection brought in by the EU; everyone that cares for worker's rights needs to vote to Remain'.
But he didn't. Poor, weak leadership.
T.
> Effectively he said, I don't believe the eu is perfect but it's better than the alternative so on balance I'm voting in.
The trouble was, he didn't specifically say that; it would have been better if he had. Better still if he'd said something like 'It needs overhaul and it needs reform, but it's worth staying in to reform it. Every worker in the UK benefits from employment protection brought in by the EU; everyone that cares for worker's rights needs to vote to Remain'.
But he didn't. Poor, weak leadership.
T.
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In reply to MG:
utter bollocks.
He might get some of the blame but the bulk is with Cameron. He is the one who went for it in an attempt to beat internal revolt and boost his vote.
He does seem lackluster about it but then again I can understand why he didnt want to be seen alongside Cameron, given the Scottish results, and he does seem to have been active but just not reported by the media. He does also seem to have a lot of reservations about the EU but then again many people do but unfortunately Cameron's 'renegotiation' ignored all those concerns.
Looking at it at least one of the MPs targeting him is one of those insipid seek mondeo man and ignore the traditional labour voters in the hope they will keep voting for you.
> Quite. He is at least as responsible for this mess as Cameron.
utter bollocks.
He might get some of the blame but the bulk is with Cameron. He is the one who went for it in an attempt to beat internal revolt and boost his vote.
He does seem lackluster about it but then again I can understand why he didnt want to be seen alongside Cameron, given the Scottish results, and he does seem to have been active but just not reported by the media. He does also seem to have a lot of reservations about the EU but then again many people do but unfortunately Cameron's 'renegotiation' ignored all those concerns.
Looking at it at least one of the MPs targeting him is one of those insipid seek mondeo man and ignore the traditional labour voters in the hope they will keep voting for you.
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In reply to RyanOsborne:
It may have been his message but it's not what he said. If he didn't say it, it can't be reported. For better or worse, we live in a world where the soundbite matters and he should know this and come prepared. He walked into a gunfight expecting people to play by the Queensberry rules; it may have been mature, considered and respectful but it was also poor judgement, weak and naive.
T.
It may have been his message but it's not what he said. If he didn't say it, it can't be reported. For better or worse, we live in a world where the soundbite matters and he should know this and come prepared. He walked into a gunfight expecting people to play by the Queensberry rules; it may have been mature, considered and respectful but it was also poor judgement, weak and naive.
T.
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In reply to RyanOsborne:
He's a nice guy, but unfortunately not leadership material. When the press were commenting on his lackluster prior to the vote he still failed to react to the criticisms by showing more passion and enthusiasm. He could/should have done so (without resorting to insults and lies).
> I think he treated voters of both sides with respect, presented what he saw and allowed people to decide. As a politician that is what he should be doing, not the mud slinging in fighting bullshit that characterised most of the debate.
He's a nice guy, but unfortunately not leadership material. When the press were commenting on his lackluster prior to the vote he still failed to react to the criticisms by showing more passion and enthusiasm. He could/should have done so (without resorting to insults and lies).
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In reply to Trangia:
Over 75,000 people signed a petition on 38degrees.com supporting Corbyn within 3 hours of the announcement of the no confidence motion.
Over 75,000 people signed a petition on 38degrees.com supporting Corbyn within 3 hours of the announcement of the no confidence motion.
Post edited at 18:12
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In reply to Trangia:
I have no idea what his agenda was or if he even had one, he seemed to me to be AWOL from the whole affair.
Although I have no time for Corbyn as a leader, in this case I'm not knocking him for personal reasons; he stated he was for "Remain" and then simply didn't step up to the mark, may as well have been on holiday for all the impact he had.
The campaign was dire from both sides and he didn't have to lower himself to those levels, but he did have a duty to put a message across to Labour voters of what they were voting for or against. In my mind he had a responsibility and should accept a chunk of the blame for the exit vote.
I have no idea what his agenda was or if he even had one, he seemed to me to be AWOL from the whole affair.
Although I have no time for Corbyn as a leader, in this case I'm not knocking him for personal reasons; he stated he was for "Remain" and then simply didn't step up to the mark, may as well have been on holiday for all the impact he had.
The campaign was dire from both sides and he didn't have to lower himself to those levels, but he did have a duty to put a message across to Labour voters of what they were voting for or against. In my mind he had a responsibility and should accept a chunk of the blame for the exit vote.
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In reply to Trangia:
He was a seasoned back bencher, a decent man with a conscience who highlighted the hypocrisies of those in power. He is not a leader of people or political parties. He should return to the back benches and let a social Democratic Party find itself again and offer a decent alternative to the Tories.
He was a seasoned back bencher, a decent man with a conscience who highlighted the hypocrisies of those in power. He is not a leader of people or political parties. He should return to the back benches and let a social Democratic Party find itself again and offer a decent alternative to the Tories.
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In reply to Moley:
Very well put
> I have no idea what his agenda was or if he even had one, he seemed to me to be AWOL from the whole affair.
> Although I have no time for Corbyn as a leader, in this case I'm not knocking him for personal reasons; he stated he was for "Remain" and then simply didn't step up to the mark, may as well have been on holiday for all the impact he had.
> The campaign was dire from both sides and he didn't have to lower himself to those levels, but he did have a duty to put a message across to Labour voters of what they were voting for or against. In my mind he had a responsibility and should accept a chunk of the blame for the exit vote.
Very well put
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In reply to Trangia:
Jeremy Corbin is the best thing that ever happened for the Conservative party.
He is unelectable as a PM, he looks like a maths teacher and has a beard.
Jeremy Corbin is the best thing that ever happened for the Conservative party.
He is unelectable as a PM, he looks like a maths teacher and has a beard.
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In reply to Moley:
> I have no idea what his agenda was or if he even had one, he seemed to me to be AWOL from the whole affair.
Agreed.> The campaign was dire from both sides and he didn't have to lower himself to those levels...
But he might at least have tried to raise himself above those levels, as one might have expected of a party leader. The disappointing 'support' he showed seemed no more than a token gesture. Even his justification of his style of support on today's tv interview was delivered in incredibly measured words - taking care to be factually correct whilst conveying his real opinion in what he didn't say.
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In reply to Trangia:
Not sure how he will lead any sort of fightback against the Tories in this new world. I am sorry to say from what I seen, seasoned and competent back bencher but not the same calibre as his likely Tory opponents such as Boris or Gove etc.
Not sure how he will lead any sort of fightback against the Tories in this new world. I am sorry to say from what I seen, seasoned and competent back bencher but not the same calibre as his likely Tory opponents such as Boris or Gove etc.
Post edited at 19:48
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In reply to KevinD:
Cameron screwed up calling the referendum. Corbyn screwed up by doing nothing effective to support. In fact he obviously didn't support it but didn't have the courage to say so. Pathetic.
> utter bollocks.
> He might get some of the blame
Cameron screwed up calling the referendum. Corbyn screwed up by doing nothing effective to support. In fact he obviously didn't support it but didn't have the courage to say so. Pathetic.
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In reply to John Stainforth:
I suspect some Corbynites still can't bear to hear the emperor has no clothes.
I suspect some Corbynites still can't bear to hear the emperor has no clothes.
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In reply to Gone for good:
Playing devils advocate. That 75k (his entire mandate 0f 400k for that matter) aren't going to win him an election. Corbyn is stubborn. He's a cleaver man and can clearly see that he's vastly unpopular amongst huge strands of labour supporters - who are probably less likely to sign up to vote as labour leadership challenges, or online petitions. It's hurting labour as they are not engaging with their core voters.
Blair said Corbyn is great example of a placard politician - Lots of disagreeing with the establishment and taking the moral high ground but not really achieving very much. I agree with him.
Although I'm a massive centre grounder/blairite/fence sitting last minute swing voter politically, I was very solidly in the remain camp (despite loving playing devils advocate a lot of the time.)
Playing devils advocate. That 75k (his entire mandate 0f 400k for that matter) aren't going to win him an election. Corbyn is stubborn. He's a cleaver man and can clearly see that he's vastly unpopular amongst huge strands of labour supporters - who are probably less likely to sign up to vote as labour leadership challenges, or online petitions. It's hurting labour as they are not engaging with their core voters.
Blair said Corbyn is great example of a placard politician - Lots of disagreeing with the establishment and taking the moral high ground but not really achieving very much. I agree with him.
Although I'm a massive centre grounder/blairite/fence sitting last minute swing voter politically, I was very solidly in the remain camp (despite loving playing devils advocate a lot of the time.)
Post edited at 21:26
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In reply to JayK:
Is it just possible that the Labour voters who don't like Corbyn are in fact the new UKIP constituency? He's toxic and must go.
Is it just possible that the Labour voters who don't like Corbyn are in fact the new UKIP constituency? He's toxic and must go.
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In reply to Trangia:
Corbyn is the sole reason i have returned to support labour. So if he is replaced by another corporate cut-out like Milliband then they may as well pack up
Corbyn is the sole reason i have returned to support labour. So if he is replaced by another corporate cut-out like Milliband then they may as well pack up
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In reply to Duncan Bourne:
I thought I liked him, but he could hardly have done more to support Farage's far right project.
Labour is finished. They've all gone to UKIP.
The thinking socialists need a home. Time for a new party. It will happen.
I thought I liked him, but he could hardly have done more to support Farage's far right project.
Labour is finished. They've all gone to UKIP.
The thinking socialists need a home. Time for a new party. It will happen.
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In reply to Trangia:
Corbyn has a long history of issuing anti-EU sentiments, knew he'd get called on it if he stuck his head to high over the parapet.
Corbyn has a long history of issuing anti-EU sentiments, knew he'd get called on it if he stuck his head to high over the parapet.
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In reply to MG:
I am not particularly a fan of him. I think him or someone similar is good for making Labour reassess where its place in the political spectrum is but he does have a shitload of flaws.
However there is absolutely no way he shares equal blame with Cameron.
> I suspect some Corbynites still can't bear to hear the emperor has no clothes.
I am not particularly a fan of him. I think him or someone similar is good for making Labour reassess where its place in the political spectrum is but he does have a shitload of flaws.
However there is absolutely no way he shares equal blame with Cameron.
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In reply to KevinD:
Much as I dislike Blair for the war in Iraq, this is quite interesting
http://www.liberation.fr/planete/2016/06/24/tony-blair-nous-entrons-dans-un...
(in French)
Much as I dislike Blair for the war in Iraq, this is quite interesting
http://www.liberation.fr/planete/2016/06/24/tony-blair-nous-entrons-dans-un...
(in French)
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In reply to Trangia:
I think Corbyn was put in an infeasible position,
he didn't Show passion,
He didn't respond to newspaper headlines with headline grabbing pulpit beating bullshit, but he has come out of the debate as one of the few people who cant be pulled up for bullshitting.
most of the problems debated he genuinely feels are of our own making and the answer lies in our hands and the EU debate was a smokescreen for the political class not taking ownership of the problems it has caused so be throwing himself into the debate he was becoming part of the problem.
And this is his problem he is to nuanced and was never going to grab any headlines, Labour needs a Team working together under a populist leader who can convince people where the issues lie and that they can do something to solve the issue, Corbyn is right on many fronts but is not an election winner.
I think Corbyn was put in an infeasible position,
he didn't Show passion,
He didn't respond to newspaper headlines with headline grabbing pulpit beating bullshit, but he has come out of the debate as one of the few people who cant be pulled up for bullshitting.
most of the problems debated he genuinely feels are of our own making and the answer lies in our hands and the EU debate was a smokescreen for the political class not taking ownership of the problems it has caused so be throwing himself into the debate he was becoming part of the problem.
And this is his problem he is to nuanced and was never going to grab any headlines, Labour needs a Team working together under a populist leader who can convince people where the issues lie and that they can do something to solve the issue, Corbyn is right on many fronts but is not an election winner.
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BBC news just switched from Corbyn's speech to Sturgeon.
She said eu ntionals welcome, will meet eu consul generals and projecting stability.
Rather a contrast to London.
She said eu ntionals welcome, will meet eu consul generals and projecting stability.
Rather a contrast to London.
In reply to Moley:
Given that Labour voters were polling at 75% remain to 25% leave, obviously much much higher than the national average, I don't think you're right to apportion blame to Corbyn for not convincing Labour voters. Whether by Corbyn or not, they were convinced that remain was the better option.
And if you do apportion the blame with Corbyn / Labour, you should equally apportion the blame with Sturgeon and the SNP who were polling at the same level of remain support.
> The campaign was dire from both sides and he didn't have to lower himself to those levels, but he did have a duty to put a message across to Labour voters of what they were voting for or against. In my mind he had a responsibility and should accept a chunk of the blame for the exit vote.
Given that Labour voters were polling at 75% remain to 25% leave, obviously much much higher than the national average, I don't think you're right to apportion blame to Corbyn for not convincing Labour voters. Whether by Corbyn or not, they were convinced that remain was the better option.
And if you do apportion the blame with Corbyn / Labour, you should equally apportion the blame with Sturgeon and the SNP who were polling at the same level of remain support.
Post edited at 12:01
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In reply to RyanOsborne:
Did you listen to Corbyn's speech in Parliament Square last night? Last night he was fighting to save his job and his speech was full of passion. Where was that passion during the Referendum Campaign? He showed last night that he has the ability, but he chose not to use it in the run up to the 23rd.
Did you listen to Corbyn's speech in Parliament Square last night? Last night he was fighting to save his job and his speech was full of passion. Where was that passion during the Referendum Campaign? He showed last night that he has the ability, but he chose not to use it in the run up to the 23rd.
Post edited at 08:16
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In reply to Trangia:
being decent is nice when you deal with someone on a day to day basis, unfortunately that is not the highest rated personality trait needed in a leader in a time of crisis.
being decent is nice when you deal with someone on a day to day basis, unfortunately that is not the highest rated personality trait needed in a leader in a time of crisis.
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In reply to Trangia:
I am a conservative voter but if I was going to vote for a labour leader it would be Mr Corbyn.
Unless Mr Field was to stand.
All the other candidates are louder, better dressed and say the 'right' things but that doesn't make them better leaders.
It could be that those labour voters who voted leave did so because of beliefs so strong that no leader could have swayed them, people aren't like MP's being whipped to vote.
I am a conservative voter but if I was going to vote for a labour leader it would be Mr Corbyn.
Unless Mr Field was to stand.
All the other candidates are louder, better dressed and say the 'right' things but that doesn't make them better leaders.
It could be that those labour voters who voted leave did so because of beliefs so strong that no leader could have swayed them, people aren't like MP's being whipped to vote.
In reply to RyanOsborne:
Corbyn could have been speaking to everyone, not just labour. He could have been explaining, cajoling, urging people to get out and vote (lowest turnout was in Glasgow, in Remain heartland). He failed us. His passion now for keeping his position is in stark contrast to the silence that preceded it.
> Given that Labour voters were polling at 75% remain to 25% leave, obviously much much higher than the national average, I don't think you're right to apportion blame to Corbyn for not convincing Labour voters. Whether by Corbyn or not, they were convinced that remain was the better option.
Corbyn could have been speaking to everyone, not just labour. He could have been explaining, cajoling, urging people to get out and vote (lowest turnout was in Glasgow, in Remain heartland). He failed us. His passion now for keeping his position is in stark contrast to the silence that preceded it.
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In reply to Trangia:
I think it's deeper even than that. When was he last on the Today programme? When was he last on Newsnight? He seems to think that as long as he talks to his personal apparatchiks he doesn't need to engage with anyone else. I understand his views on the Westminster bubble and what he sees as the contempt of the PLP for grassroots concerns but he seems equally contemptuous of any opinion other than the very small choir of the party membership to whom he is preaching.
> Did you listen to Corbyn's speech in Parliament Square last night? Last night he was fighting to save his job and his speech was full of passion. Where was that passion during the Referendum Campaign? He showed last night that he has the ability, but he chose not to use it in the run up to the 23rd.
I think it's deeper even than that. When was he last on the Today programme? When was he last on Newsnight? He seems to think that as long as he talks to his personal apparatchiks he doesn't need to engage with anyone else. I understand his views on the Westminster bubble and what he sees as the contempt of the PLP for grassroots concerns but he seems equally contemptuous of any opinion other than the very small choir of the party membership to whom he is preaching.
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In reply to digby:
Have you even seen the statistics???
He wasn't visible because the media have been against him since he became leader.
Based on 2015 election voters :-
Labour voters vote 65% in against, 35% out.
Conservative voters vote 39% in and 61% out.
And it's STILL JC's fault. Why can't all these PLP traitors see what's wrong with the system, and their arguments?
Do they really think we want a different leader of the Labour party, or do they want a new leader?
On top of that, if you cast you mind back to last week, it was a done deal, it was going to be close but we'd be voting IN.
edit:
I've just noticed my statistics were quoted above, yet no one seems to have commented on them. So my question is, What figures do you think would be acceptable? or is only 100% of the Labour vote, worth JC keeping his job?
Have you even seen the statistics???
He wasn't visible because the media have been against him since he became leader.
Based on 2015 election voters :-
Labour voters vote 65% in against, 35% out.
Conservative voters vote 39% in and 61% out.
And it's STILL JC's fault. Why can't all these PLP traitors see what's wrong with the system, and their arguments?
Do they really think we want a different leader of the Labour party, or do they want a new leader?
On top of that, if you cast you mind back to last week, it was a done deal, it was going to be close but we'd be voting IN.
edit:
I've just noticed my statistics were quoted above, yet no one seems to have commented on them. So my question is, What figures do you think would be acceptable? or is only 100% of the Labour vote, worth JC keeping his job?
Post edited at 09:11
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In reply to Aztec Bar:
Do you base who you vote for on their looks?
I'd have thought what they stood for might be a better option.
Don't believe the hype!
> Jeremy Corbin is the best thing that ever happened for the Conservative party.
> He is unelectable as a PM, he looks like a maths teacher and has a beard.
Do you base who you vote for on their looks?
I'd have thought what they stood for might be a better option.
Don't believe the hype!
Post edited at 09:15
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In reply to digby:
He was doing all those things. He traveled around the country talking to people, he just wasn't grabbing newspaper headlines by spouting the unfounded lies and empty promises as per the majority of politicians. As Krikoman says, what would be an acceptable level of labour voters backing remain? 90%? 100%?
I think Corbyn behaved exactly as politicians should have behaved during the referendum, and had every politician acted as he did, without the lies and the bullshit, then perhaps more people would have made a better thought out decision.
He was doing all those things. He traveled around the country talking to people, he just wasn't grabbing newspaper headlines by spouting the unfounded lies and empty promises as per the majority of politicians. As Krikoman says, what would be an acceptable level of labour voters backing remain? 90%? 100%?
I think Corbyn behaved exactly as politicians should have behaved during the referendum, and had every politician acted as he did, without the lies and the bullshit, then perhaps more people would have made a better thought out decision.
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In reply to krikoman:
Unfortunately that seems to be the world we live in today. Politicians are nothing more than celebrities. Clement Atlee wouldn't be elected by today's electorate.
> Do you base who you vote for on their looks?
Unfortunately that seems to be the world we live in today. Politicians are nothing more than celebrities. Clement Atlee wouldn't be elected by today's electorate.
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In reply to Trangia:
He is a professional opposer. When his opposition (Cameron) was of the same mind as him, he was lost.
The Labour Party line was pro-European he didn't expect Labout supporters to vote out.
He preaches to the converted and doesn't engage the press/media so he's never going to swing marginal voters.
He doesn't live in the real world, any other leader would have offered his resignation first thing Monday morning. He won't go. Two new leadership candidates will have to be proposed and he will not be one of them.
He is a professional opposer. When his opposition (Cameron) was of the same mind as him, he was lost.
The Labour Party line was pro-European he didn't expect Labout supporters to vote out.
He preaches to the converted and doesn't engage the press/media so he's never going to swing marginal voters.
He doesn't live in the real world, any other leader would have offered his resignation first thing Monday morning. He won't go. Two new leadership candidates will have to be proposed and he will not be one of them.
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In reply to DancingOnRock:
Well he was right then, as they didn't?
> The Labour Party line was pro-European he didn't expect Labout supporters to vote out.
Well he was right then, as they didn't?
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In reply to DancingOnRock:
Sounds like a perfect title for his biography.
> the professional opposer.
Sounds like a perfect title for his biography.
Post edited at 09:58
In reply to DancingOnRock:
The vast majority of Labour voters, didn't FFS!!
67% to be exact!
What percentage would you deem reasonable? because if everybody had voted the way the "Labour voters" voted we'd still be in, with a massive majority and there'd be no doubt about the mandate.
> The Labour Party line was pro-European he didn't expect Labout supporters to vote out.
The vast majority of Labour voters, didn't FFS!!
67% to be exact!
What percentage would you deem reasonable? because if everybody had voted the way the "Labour voters" voted we'd still be in, with a massive majority and there'd be no doubt about the mandate.
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In reply to krikoman:
Nonsense, and an easy excuse. He could get any amount of air time but he doesn't want it. He is completely unused to arguing with anyone well-informed who just doesn't agree with him. In fact, I've heard it said that he's barely ever spoken to anyone who he didn't think already agreed with him. It's ironic that he criticises MPs for living in a bubble.
> He wasn't visible because the media have been against him since he became leader.
Nonsense, and an easy excuse. He could get any amount of air time but he doesn't want it. He is completely unused to arguing with anyone well-informed who just doesn't agree with him. In fact, I've heard it said that he's barely ever spoken to anyone who he didn't think already agreed with him. It's ironic that he criticises MPs for living in a bubble.
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In reply to RyanOsborne:
Politicians need to engage with the media and to accept that they will be given a hard time. Yes, he's been badly treated, but the only way to cut through that is to be interviewed and to get direct coverage.
The complete panic in Labour ranks about two weeks before the vote when they realised that they lost their core voters and Brown, Blair and every Labour man woman and dog came out to support remain (except Corbyn) is evidence in itself that Corbyn was not acting as a leader.
> He was doing all those things. He traveled around the country talking to people, he just wasn't grabbing newspaper headlines by spouting the unfounded lies and empty promises as per the majority of politicians. As Krikoman says, what would be an acceptable level of labour voters backing remain? 90%? 100%?
> I think Corbyn behaved exactly as politicians should have behaved during the referendum, and had every politician acted as he did, without the lies and the bullshit, then perhaps more people would have made a better thought out decision.
Politicians need to engage with the media and to accept that they will be given a hard time. Yes, he's been badly treated, but the only way to cut through that is to be interviewed and to get direct coverage.
The complete panic in Labour ranks about two weeks before the vote when they realised that they lost their core voters and Brown, Blair and every Labour man woman and dog came out to support remain (except Corbyn) is evidence in itself that Corbyn was not acting as a leader.
Post edited at 10:20
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In reply to RyanOsborne:
How about grabbing the headlines by spouting the truth? No-one seems to have tried that. And he should be reaching out to voters other than labour too. How's he going to win an election without swaying voters opinions? Preaching to the converted, as many have pointed out, isn't going to cut the mustard.
> he just wasn't grabbing newspaper headlines by spouting the unfounded lies and empty promises as per the majority of politicians.
How about grabbing the headlines by spouting the truth? No-one seems to have tried that. And he should be reaching out to voters other than labour too. How's he going to win an election without swaying voters opinions? Preaching to the converted, as many have pointed out, isn't going to cut the mustard.
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In reply to krikoman:
I don't understand where the numbers come from but that isn't really the point. The fact is that the referendum was narrowly lost and everyone (including me) has a clear impression that Corbyn was distinctly unenthusiastic in his campaigning.
Angela Eagle said yesterday that she was shocked when she realised a couple of weeks ago that large numbers of Labour activists, let alone ordinary Labour voters, had no idea what the Party's position was. Corbyn was theoretically campaigning for Remain, he just didn't actually communicate this to anyone. Like a lot of other things.
I don't understand where the numbers come from but that isn't really the point. The fact is that the referendum was narrowly lost and everyone (including me) has a clear impression that Corbyn was distinctly unenthusiastic in his campaigning.
Angela Eagle said yesterday that she was shocked when she realised a couple of weeks ago that large numbers of Labour activists, let alone ordinary Labour voters, had no idea what the Party's position was. Corbyn was theoretically campaigning for Remain, he just didn't actually communicate this to anyone. Like a lot of other things.
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In reply to Dave Garnett:
Unbelievable.
> I don't understand where the numbers come from but that isn't really the point.
Unbelievable.
1
In reply to Postmanpat:
But they didn't lose their core voters, they had 67%, pretty much the same as the SNP!
> The complete panic in Labour ranks about two weeks before the vote when they realised that they lost their core voters ......
But they didn't lose their core voters, they had 67%, pretty much the same as the SNP!
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In reply to Postmanpat:
Are you saying Corbyn wasn't in support of remain?
Given that you're suggesting he should be trying harder to get in the media, what exactly is the point when people don't listen? As evidenced by your post.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36430606
Are you saying Corbyn wasn't in support of remain?
Given that you're suggesting he should be trying harder to get in the media, what exactly is the point when people don't listen? As evidenced by your post.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36430606
In reply to RyanOsborne:
> Are you saying Corbyn wasn't in support of remain?
> Given that you're suggesting he should be trying harder to get in the media, what exactly is the point when people don't listen? As evidenced by your post.
>
No, I'm saying he was hopelessly inept at getting his message across to the the "Old Labour"voters that should be his natural constituency, let alone to anyone else. His excuse was that he was doing lots of "meetings". This is blindingly obviously not going to work with the millions of people who don't go to politcal rallies but watch or listen to the the news for a couple of minutes twice a week.Post edited at 10:31
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In reply to Postmanpat:
So who were this 67% of labour voters who voted remain?
I think the Brexiteers have realised the enormity of their f*ck up and are pathetically scrabbling around looking for someone else to blame.
> No, I'm saying he was hopelessly inept at getting his message across to the the "Old Labour"voters that should be his natural constituency, let alone to anyone else.
So who were this 67% of labour voters who voted remain?
I think the Brexiteers have realised the enormity of their f*ck up and are pathetically scrabbling around looking for someone else to blame.
In reply to RyanOsborne:
53% of people who voted Labour last year want JC to resign.
> So who were this 67% of labour voters who voted remain?
>
Some of the old working class but predominantly metropolitan educated labourites and hipsters, probably like you!!53% of people who voted Labour last year want JC to resign.
Post edited at 10:50
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In reply to RyanOsborne:
I watched a Sky reporter talk over footage of Corbyn doing a Q&A session, commenting that he's failing to communicate - what's a man to do? The mainstream media in this country is toxic, but I also agree that he doesn't do enough to convince people who aren't his natural supporters.
I watched a Sky reporter talk over footage of Corbyn doing a Q&A session, commenting that he's failing to communicate - what's a man to do? The mainstream media in this country is toxic, but I also agree that he doesn't do enough to convince people who aren't his natural supporters.
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In reply to RyanOsborne:
OK, I'm still not sure how this was calculated and how you know how any individual voted in 2015 and last week, but even if we assume that a third of Labour supporters voted Leave, what does that say for the clarity of the Party message, or the effort put into ensuring their core support was convinced, let alone big Corbynite principles like the European brotherhood of international socialism?
And since you are pushing for a number, I would expect 90% of a party's core supporters to vote in favour of an proposition as massively important as this one. If a third of MPs of any party voted against their leader's line on such an issue there would certainly be questions about the leadership.
> Unbelievable.
OK, I'm still not sure how this was calculated and how you know how any individual voted in 2015 and last week, but even if we assume that a third of Labour supporters voted Leave, what does that say for the clarity of the Party message, or the effort put into ensuring their core support was convinced, let alone big Corbynite principles like the European brotherhood of international socialism?
And since you are pushing for a number, I would expect 90% of a party's core supporters to vote in favour of an proposition as massively important as this one. If a third of MPs of any party voted against their leader's line on such an issue there would certainly be questions about the leadership.
In reply to Dave Garnett:
You don't need to assume! It was polled! 67%.
I think you need a reality check. This doesn't divide exactly down party lines, and even if it did, nowhere near 90% of voters base their decision on the EU referendum on what the party they vote for say. Otherwise it would have been a 85% remain vote, as all parties except UKIP backed remain.
So Nicola Sturgeon needs to be kicked out too?
> OK, I'm still not sure how this was calculated and how you know how any individual voted in 2015 and last week, but even if we assume that a third of Labour supporters voted Leave, what does that say for the clarity of the Party message, or the effort put into ensuring their core support was convinced, let alone big Corbynite principles like the European brotherhood of international socialism?
You don't need to assume! It was polled! 67%.
> And since you are pushing for a number, I would expect 90% of a party's core supporters to vote in favour of an proposition as massively important as this one.
I think you need a reality check. This doesn't divide exactly down party lines, and even if it did, nowhere near 90% of voters base their decision on the EU referendum on what the party they vote for say. Otherwise it would have been a 85% remain vote, as all parties except UKIP backed remain.
> If a third of MPs of any party voted against their leader's line on such an issue there would certainly be questions about the leadership.
So Nicola Sturgeon needs to be kicked out too?
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In reply to Dave Garnett:
Nonsense. As someone has already pointed out, you can't whip the electorate like MPs. What do you base your 90% figure on? The voters of any party are a broad church attracted by different aspects of party policy.
Nonsense. As someone has already pointed out, you can't whip the electorate like MPs. What do you base your 90% figure on? The voters of any party are a broad church attracted by different aspects of party policy.
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In reply to Trangia:
I like and admire Corbyn, I do, but in reality if he can't lead the Westminster MPs then he needs to go.
It is crucial to have an opposition and what we have today is a mess. They need someone who can unite Labour MPs as well as the rest of the party & the Trade Unions. I don't know who can do that, but Corbyn has tried and he can't.
Today I would vote for Sturgeon if I could. I don't agree with all of what she stands for, but at the moment she is giving the impression that she knows what she is doing and there are not many leaders doing that.
I like and admire Corbyn, I do, but in reality if he can't lead the Westminster MPs then he needs to go.
It is crucial to have an opposition and what we have today is a mess. They need someone who can unite Labour MPs as well as the rest of the party & the Trade Unions. I don't know who can do that, but Corbyn has tried and he can't.
Today I would vote for Sturgeon if I could. I don't agree with all of what she stands for, but at the moment she is giving the impression that she knows what she is doing and there are not many leaders doing that.
In reply to krikoman:
The point I was making is that he preaches to the converted.
With a strong labour leader and a strong conservative leader working together with cross party support, he would have won the remain voters across.
He shuns the media, or the media don't like him and he doesn't appear to care.
One way or the other, if you can't win the media across, you have no chance of leading your party into government.
> The vast majority of Labour voters, didn't FFS!!
> 67% to be exact!
> What percentage would you deem reasonable? because if everybody had voted the way the "Labour voters" voted we'd still be in, with a massive majority and there'd be no doubt about the mandate.
The point I was making is that he preaches to the converted.
With a strong labour leader and a strong conservative leader working together with cross party support, he would have won the remain voters across.
He shuns the media, or the media don't like him and he doesn't appear to care.
One way or the other, if you can't win the media across, you have no chance of leading your party into government.
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In reply to DancingOnRock:
Not necessarily. Remember one of the reoccurent themes of the referendum has been anger against the elite/establishment. You can also look at the Scottish referendum for a similar pattern.
Especially with the tory decision to go with the same aggressive strategy for both. One that it would be clear that Corbyn wouldnt buy into.
> With a strong labour leader and a strong conservative leader working together with cross party support, he would have won the remain voters across.
Not necessarily. Remember one of the reoccurent themes of the referendum has been anger against the elite/establishment. You can also look at the Scottish referendum for a similar pattern.
Especially with the tory decision to go with the same aggressive strategy for both. One that it would be clear that Corbyn wouldnt buy into.
In reply to KevinD:
Wel that's fair enough then. If the referendum was about unseating those in power and breaking the economy to try to reduce the gap between the rich and the poor then Corbyn has to go as well.
> Not necessarily. Remember one of the reoccurent themes of the referendum has been anger against the elite/establishment. You can also look at the Scottish referendum for a similar pattern.
> Especially with the tory decision to go with the same aggressive strategy for both. One that it would be clear that Corbyn wouldnt buy into.
Wel that's fair enough then. If the referendum was about unseating those in power and breaking the economy to try to reduce the gap between the rich and the poor then Corbyn has to go as well.
In reply to DancingOnRock:
ermm. Care to elaborate?
Aside from anything else who do you propose to replace him. All the ones lining up to stab him are those hardcore Blairites who seem designed to turn off any of the traditional voters.
> Wel that's fair enough then. If the referendum was about unseating those in power and breaking the economy to try to reduce the gap between the rich and the poor then Corbyn has to go as well.
ermm. Care to elaborate?
Aside from anything else who do you propose to replace him. All the ones lining up to stab him are those hardcore Blairites who seem designed to turn off any of the traditional voters.
In reply to DancingOnRock:
Some of it was about disillusionment with the state of politics over the last twenty years, Corbyn is the antidote to that, or at least a step in the right direction, for some people.
How can you accuse him of preaching to the converted and then say he didn't win enough votes, surely that's Cameron's fault.
I'm amazed that people still don't get this, yet still seem to think it's OK to blame him for everything.
I had a hard poo this morning, was it his fault for that?
Again what proportion of Labour voters would have been enough for you to say "well done"?
> Wel that's fair enough then. If the referendum was about unseating those in power and breaking the economy to try to reduce the gap between the rich and the poor then Corbyn has to go as well.
Some of it was about disillusionment with the state of politics over the last twenty years, Corbyn is the antidote to that, or at least a step in the right direction, for some people.
How can you accuse him of preaching to the converted and then say he didn't win enough votes, surely that's Cameron's fault.
I'm amazed that people still don't get this, yet still seem to think it's OK to blame him for everything.
I had a hard poo this morning, was it his fault for that?
Again what proportion of Labour voters would have been enough for you to say "well done"?
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In reply to krikoman:
My comment 'he looks like a maths Teacher and has a beard', was supposed to be a joke, I would have thought that was self evident. I think these days however appearance is important, the rights or wrongs of that are another matter.
I stand by the remark that he is unelectable as PM. I normally vote Conservative and think having effective opposition.
is important in a democracy, I don't think he is able to provide even that.
I don't believe Hype.
> Do you base who you vote for on their looks?
> I'd have thought what they stood for might be a better option.
> Don't believe the hype!
My comment 'he looks like a maths Teacher and has a beard', was supposed to be a joke, I would have thought that was self evident. I think these days however appearance is important, the rights or wrongs of that are another matter.
I stand by the remark that he is unelectable as PM. I normally vote Conservative and think having effective opposition.
is important in a democracy, I don't think he is able to provide even that.
I don't believe Hype.
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In reply to KevinD:
Exactly, people keep saying he's no good but it's not been tested, people said the Conservatives wouldn't win last time, or that Brexit wouldn't win. The people keep voting differently to what we're being told we going to vote.
Of cousre this couldn't possibly be the case for JC now could it?
> Aside from anything else who do you propose to replace him. All the ones lining up to stab him are those hardcore Blairites who seem designed to turn off any of the traditional voters.
Exactly, people keep saying he's no good but it's not been tested, people said the Conservatives wouldn't win last time, or that Brexit wouldn't win. The people keep voting differently to what we're being told we going to vote.
Of cousre this couldn't possibly be the case for JC now could it?
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In reply to Aztec Bar:
Cameron looks like he's got a condom on his head and Osborne has an arse for a nose.. as you say, appearances are important.
Cameron looks like he's got a condom on his head and Osborne has an arse for a nose.. as you say, appearances are important.
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In reply to Aztec Bar:
You obviously do, otherwise you might not be so sure he's unelectable and you normally vote Conservative
> I don't believe Hype.
You obviously do, otherwise you might not be so sure he's unelectable and you normally vote Conservative
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In reply to krikoman:
I note that both Richard Murphy and Owen Jones, estwhile supporters and self described "socialists", have come out, albeit reluctantly, to call for JC to move on.
https://medium.com/@OwenJones84/my-thoughts-on-the-plight-of-labour-3841322...
> You obviously do, otherwise you might not be so sure he's unelectable and you normally vote Conservative
I note that both Richard Murphy and Owen Jones, estwhile supporters and self described "socialists", have come out, albeit reluctantly, to call for JC to move on.
https://medium.com/@OwenJones84/my-thoughts-on-the-plight-of-labour-3841322...
Post edited at 11:49
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In reply to Postmanpat:
Thanks for that, I like this line:
'History may judge the Tory Brexiteers to be the architects of the most radical, and ruinous, proposition to be offered and (presumably) implemented in Britain since the war.'
Thanks for that, I like this line:
'History may judge the Tory Brexiteers to be the architects of the most radical, and ruinous, proposition to be offered and (presumably) implemented in Britain since the war.'
In reply to RyanOsborne:
Lol, Mrs.Merkel has warned against such cherry picking....
> Thanks for that, I like this line:
> 'History may judge the Tory Brexiteers to be the architects of the most radical, and ruinous, proposition to be offered and (presumably) implemented in Britain since the war.'
Lol, Mrs.Merkel has warned against such cherry picking....
Post edited at 11:59
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In reply to Trangia:
I agree, we barely heard a peep from him until near the end of the campaign.
> I give you that he kept away from insults and lying, but his drive and passion for Remain as leader of the Party was unconvincing and pathetic. He did nothing to drum up enthusiasm for Remain, particularly amongst many working class voters. It would have been perfectly possible for him to have done this without reverting to insults and lying.
I agree, we barely heard a peep from him until near the end of the campaign.
In reply to krikoman:
I'm not particularly blaming him for anything. I suspect there may be just as many people who voted remain who actually think leave isn't going to be so bad.
A huge middle ground of people who had no idea which way to vote.
There was no third vote. How about a "I've listened to all the arguments and there is no clear answer." Vote. Which is effectively a remain vote.
What about all the voters who aren't conservative or labour. A United conservative and labour leader might have swayed them.
I'm not bothered either way. I feel the country does need change, if you wait it'll never be the right time. It's going to be painful and there's a real risk of the world economy collapsing because of it. Hopefully the lessons learned in 2008 have made the banks nice and resilient.
Can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs.
> Some of it was about disillusionment with the state of politics over the last twenty years, Corbyn is the antidote to that, or at least a step in the right direction, for some people.
> How can you accuse him of preaching to the converted and then say he didn't win enough votes, surely that's Cameron's fault.
> I'm amazed that people still don't get this, yet still seem to think it's OK to blame him for everything.
> I had a hard poo this morning, was it his fault for that?
> Again what proportion of Labour voters would have been enough for you to say "well done"?
I'm not particularly blaming him for anything. I suspect there may be just as many people who voted remain who actually think leave isn't going to be so bad.
A huge middle ground of people who had no idea which way to vote.
There was no third vote. How about a "I've listened to all the arguments and there is no clear answer." Vote. Which is effectively a remain vote.
What about all the voters who aren't conservative or labour. A United conservative and labour leader might have swayed them.
I'm not bothered either way. I feel the country does need change, if you wait it'll never be the right time. It's going to be painful and there's a real risk of the world economy collapsing because of it. Hopefully the lessons learned in 2008 have made the banks nice and resilient.
Can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs.
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
90% was plucked out of the air, obviously. I'd already said that the exact % wasn't the point. The point was not enough Labour supporters voted Remain and Corbyn made a negligible contribution to persuading them.
90% is what I'd have been aiming for if I'd been a Labour leader who saw leaving the EU as an existential threat to my beliefs and a situation which would give massive encouragement to the worst excesses of the right.
Clearly either that isn't what he believes or he's just hopelessly ineffectual even when something really, really important is at stake.
> Nonsense. As someone has already pointed out, you can't whip the electorate like MPs. What do you base your 90% figure on? The voters of any party are a broad church attracted by different aspects of party policy.
90% was plucked out of the air, obviously. I'd already said that the exact % wasn't the point. The point was not enough Labour supporters voted Remain and Corbyn made a negligible contribution to persuading them.
90% is what I'd have been aiming for if I'd been a Labour leader who saw leaving the EU as an existential threat to my beliefs and a situation which would give massive encouragement to the worst excesses of the right.
Clearly either that isn't what he believes or he's just hopelessly ineffectual even when something really, really important is at stake.
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In reply to Dave Garnett:
90%!! but party came anywhere near that apart from UKIP and they were set up to do just that.
If you think 90% is fair then how come we have a conservative government that got about 37% of the vote at the last election.
Why aren't you reeling against that?
90%!! but party came anywhere near that apart from UKIP and they were set up to do just that.
If you think 90% is fair then how come we have a conservative government that got about 37% of the vote at the last election.
Why aren't you reeling against that?
In reply to krikoman:
It's not fair, it's what I'd be aiming for if I were the leader. It's not a general election, it's the level of support I'd be hoping for from my supporters. I might not get it, but I'd at least try!
I don't want to just rail against the Tories, especially a Tory party led by Johnson and Gove, I want to VOTE against them!
That's why a need a grown-up electable Labour party with a sensible manifesto and a credible leader that I, and preferably a majority of other people, can actually vote into office.
> If you think 90% is fair
It's not fair, it's what I'd be aiming for if I were the leader. It's not a general election, it's the level of support I'd be hoping for from my supporters. I might not get it, but I'd at least try!
> Why aren't you reeling against that?
I don't want to just rail against the Tories, especially a Tory party led by Johnson and Gove, I want to VOTE against them!
That's why a need a grown-up electable Labour party with a sensible manifesto and a credible leader that I, and preferably a majority of other people, can actually vote into office.
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In reply to Pursued by a bear:
Well he said this, and it took me about 5 seconds to find on his Facebook page:
"Britain is better off in the European Union - it needs reform - but it offers the best framework that we have: to defend living standards, workers' rights and protection for all our people.
So I urge Labour supporters to do what’s best for our people - vote for jobs, vote for rights at work and vote for our NHS - Vote Remain."
And before you say nobody heard him remember that two thirds of labour voters voted remain.
> The trouble was, he didn't specifically say that; it would have been better if he had. Better still if he'd said something like 'It needs overhaul and it needs reform, but it's worth staying in to reform it. Every worker in the UK benefits from employment protection brought in by the EU; everyone that cares for worker's rights needs to vote to Remain'.
> But he didn't. Poor, weak leadership.
Well he said this, and it took me about 5 seconds to find on his Facebook page:
"Britain is better off in the European Union - it needs reform - but it offers the best framework that we have: to defend living standards, workers' rights and protection for all our people.
So I urge Labour supporters to do what’s best for our people - vote for jobs, vote for rights at work and vote for our NHS - Vote Remain."
And before you say nobody heard him remember that two thirds of labour voters voted remain.
1
In reply to Dave Garnett:
I didn't ask what you would be aiming for, I asked what percentage of Labour voters in 2015 do you think is a reasonable percentage to prove you've done a reasonable job? No doubt he was aiming for 100% and Cameron was AIMING for the same, but who did better.
We might as well add another question, what's the percentage that you think is a shit job?
Oh it's very grown up at the moment isn't it?
Back stabbing the leader and disregarding your constituents, proves to me you're not worth trusting.
Who are you to say he's not electable?
Surely the voters are the people who do that, not the pollsters who have been so accurate on both the referendum and the EU vote.
So how exactly do you do you know he's not electable?
I'll say it again, this is part of the reason we're out of the EU, people deciding what other people are going to do, without know anything!!
> It's not fair, it's what I'd be aiming for if I were the leader. It's not a general election, it's the level of support I'd be hoping for from my supporters. I might not get it, but I'd at least try!
I didn't ask what you would be aiming for, I asked what percentage of Labour voters in 2015 do you think is a reasonable percentage to prove you've done a reasonable job? No doubt he was aiming for 100% and Cameron was AIMING for the same, but who did better.
We might as well add another question, what's the percentage that you think is a shit job?
> That's why a need a grown-up electable Labour party with a sensible manifesto and a credible leader that I, and preferably a majority of other people, can actually vote into office.
Oh it's very grown up at the moment isn't it?
Back stabbing the leader and disregarding your constituents, proves to me you're not worth trusting.
Who are you to say he's not electable?
Surely the voters are the people who do that, not the pollsters who have been so accurate on both the referendum and the EU vote.
So how exactly do you do you know he's not electable?
I'll say it again, this is part of the reason we're out of the EU, people deciding what other people are going to do, without know anything!!
In reply to Aly:
My main gripe isn't so much his stance, but how vocal he was about it during the campaign. If that's the score for labour then good, but it was about persuading everybody not just died in the wash labour voters... as is his job to get elected. if he gets 100% of "labour voters" he'll still lose an election
I also think his and his predecessor's failure to mount any real opposition to the government has been a huge factor. (and probably the blues when blair&brown were in power). When people say immigration is too high because school places are hard to get, housing waiting lists are too long, hospital waiting lists are too long, can't see a doctor etc then he should have been standing up and pointing out that the reason for these things is lack of investment just as much as immigration.
For the last 15 years they've been closing hospitals and schools, not building new ones. How many schools have been built? and why not? We know immigration is beneficial for the economy so why not build the capacity for it (generating more jobs in the process)
We've also seen the lowest amount of house building for decades and whilst it's gone up a bit recently it's no where near enough to fulfil demand yet we've seen continued selling off of social housing
These are all things within the UK government control (of whichever colour at the time) if effective governments had pointed this out rather than let everyone blame the scape goat (the EU), then people would realise our problems are by far more of our own making than the EU's
My main gripe isn't so much his stance, but how vocal he was about it during the campaign. If that's the score for labour then good, but it was about persuading everybody not just died in the wash labour voters... as is his job to get elected. if he gets 100% of "labour voters" he'll still lose an election
I also think his and his predecessor's failure to mount any real opposition to the government has been a huge factor. (and probably the blues when blair&brown were in power). When people say immigration is too high because school places are hard to get, housing waiting lists are too long, hospital waiting lists are too long, can't see a doctor etc then he should have been standing up and pointing out that the reason for these things is lack of investment just as much as immigration.
For the last 15 years they've been closing hospitals and schools, not building new ones. How many schools have been built? and why not? We know immigration is beneficial for the economy so why not build the capacity for it (generating more jobs in the process)
We've also seen the lowest amount of house building for decades and whilst it's gone up a bit recently it's no where near enough to fulfil demand yet we've seen continued selling off of social housing
These are all things within the UK government control (of whichever colour at the time) if effective governments had pointed this out rather than let everyone blame the scape goat (the EU), then people would realise our problems are by far more of our own making than the EU's
In reply to Aly:
I don't wish to labour* the point unduly, as the agenda has moved on, but if he didn't say it - either literally, with his mouth, or officially, in a quote on a press release - then it can't be reported as having been said. A facebook post might serve if something exists to point the media at it, as in a busy time they are unlikely to go looking for themselves without direction.
So this is still weak, not something that carries with it the surety of confident leadership, engaged with an issue that will have effects for a generation.
As for the voting of those who previously have voted Labour, it's a point stretched well beyond credibility to suggest that everyone who behaved this way did so because they were privy to the views of Jeremy Corbyn. He can't take credit for an issue he hasn't influenced to a significant degree.
T.
* or Labour, if you wish
> Well he said this, and it took me about 5 seconds to find on his Facebook page:
> "Britain is better off in the European Union - it needs reform - but it offers the best framework that we have: to defend living standards, workers' rights and protection for all our people.
> So I urge Labour supporters to do what’s best for our people - vote for jobs, vote for rights at work and vote for our NHS - Vote Remain."
> And before you say nobody heard him remember that two thirds of labour voters voted remain.
I don't wish to labour* the point unduly, as the agenda has moved on, but if he didn't say it - either literally, with his mouth, or officially, in a quote on a press release - then it can't be reported as having been said. A facebook post might serve if something exists to point the media at it, as in a busy time they are unlikely to go looking for themselves without direction.
So this is still weak, not something that carries with it the surety of confident leadership, engaged with an issue that will have effects for a generation.
As for the voting of those who previously have voted Labour, it's a point stretched well beyond credibility to suggest that everyone who behaved this way did so because they were privy to the views of Jeremy Corbyn. He can't take credit for an issue he hasn't influenced to a significant degree.
T.
* or Labour, if you wish
In reply to balmybaldwin:
I think it more lack of investment.
The housing shortage was Thatcher's fault when they started selling off council housing and not allowing the council to use the money to build more!
> ......................the reason for these things is lack of investment just as much as immigration.
I think it more lack of investment.
The housing shortage was Thatcher's fault when they started selling off council housing and not allowing the council to use the money to build more!
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