UKC

Power to the people.

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 arch 25 Jun 2016
...............You know, the stupid people, ill-educated, un-academic. The ones that quite possibly empty our bins, clean our windows. The doers, makers, providers of food. The ones that shouldn't be allowed to vote because they are too thick to understand. A bit like me who left school with no qualifications but managed to become an Electrician. You know the ones ??

The people continually sneered at by the political elite and always being told what's best for them by the said elite, even though the most of the elite wouldn't have a clue what it's like near the bottom.

Well, two days ago the ne'er do wells got off their couches, stopped watching Jezza Kyle, went to the polling station, punched the establishment squarely in the face and gave them a bloody nose. There was a warning shot fired at the last general election with the rise in votes for UKIP. "Just a blip" "A protest vote" "Nothing will come of it" More arrogance from those "Who know best"

Well, the people have spoken, you may not like it, it may well be rough for a while, but that is the will of the people, and good on um for it.




"FREEDOM FOR TOOTING"
(Unless Tooting voted to stay in that is)

43
 BedRock 25 Jun 2016
In reply to arch:

for voting for right wing nationalism? Yes well done.
18
 Yanis Nayu 25 Jun 2016
In reply to arch:

I suspect they will also be the same people who suffer most for their "victory".

But I guess it'll feel good for a while. Like eating a shit tonne of ice cream.
8
 Baron Weasel 25 Jun 2016
In reply to arch:
You're free to vote for whatever we tell you...
Post edited at 09:56
1
 MG 25 Jun 2016
In reply to arch:
they are too thick to understand.

, punched the establishment squarely in the face and gave them a bloody nose.

Rather proves the point then doesn't it, if they vote to give people a bloody nose, rather than on whether EU membership is a good idea.
6
 John_Hat 25 Jun 2016
In reply to arch:
I would say that the people who voted leave are to be pitied more than anything else.

This referendum may, or may not, hurt me. I'm very highly qualified and have a good job. There's quite a decent buffer between the amount I earn and the amount I actually need to live. Yes, I'll pay a lot more for holidays, cars, TVs, etc but frankly I can afford it and my lifestyle won't change much.

The people who will be totally screwed are precisely the people who voted to leave. They *don't* have that buffer. The margin between being able to pay for the weeks food and not being able to pay isn't big, if it's there at all.

What this vote means, for those you value, those at the bottom, there will be less jobs, which will pay less, the bosses will be able to treat you even more like dirt than they already do and stuff you want will cost more.

People who can't pay for food may turn to crime. Overwhelmingly, the victims of crime in poor areas are other poor people. Immigration won't change much (they've already admitted that). However all the workers protections will get stripped away. Ever heard of the EU working time directive, for example?

That's what I voted AGAINST. It's what you voted FOR.

So, when we talk about bloody noses, what you actually punched was your own face. Repeatedly. With every sense of enjoying it. The thing about this particular bloody nose though is that you punched it so bl**dy hard it's probably going to take 15-20 years to heal.
Post edited at 10:05
13
OP arch 25 Jun 2016
In reply to MG:


> Rather proves the point then doesn't it,


A bit like the sneering of most of the replies wouldn't you say ??
3
 MG 25 Jun 2016
In reply to arch:

Perhaps. I don't have much respect for thick idiots who don't know what they voted for (plenty on the web openly admitting this). You won. Now get on and sort out the mess you've created rather immediately playing the victim again. As JHat said, it's thick idiots who will suffer unless you do.
5
Removed User 25 Jun 2016
In reply to arch:

Well said but stand by for the abuse.
2
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

> I suspect they will also be the same people who suffer most for their "victory".

Of course you do. Because you know what's best for them, even if they don't know it.
4
In reply to MG:

> they are too thick to understand.

Ditto
2
 Yanis Nayu 25 Jun 2016
In reply to arch:

Can you tell me honestly that you feel happier and more confident about the future than you did a week ago, and if so, exactly what it is that is making you feel that way?
1
 off-duty 25 Jun 2016
In reply to arch:

> A bit like the sneering of most of the replies wouldn't you say ??

I'm not sure the tone is 'sneering' perhaps a better description would be 'incredulity'.
I can see how it could be interpreted as sneering by those with as many chips on their shoulders as you describe.

Perhaps you could clarify exactly how those you describe (which by your account includes both those that pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, like you, and those that didn't and sit at home watching jezza) - intend that this punch to the establishment's nose will improve their situation?
 Yanis Nayu 25 Jun 2016
In reply to Just Another Dave:

> Of course you do. Because you know what's best for them, even if they don't know it.

Of course I don't. I simply have an opinion, and I desperately hope I'm wrong.
1
 RomTheBear 25 Jun 2016
In reply to arch:
> ...............You know, the stupid people, ill-educated, un-academic. The ones that quite possibly empty our bins, clean our windows. The doers, makers, providers of food. The ones that shouldn't be allowed to vote because they are too thick to understand. A bit like me who left school with no qualifications but managed to become an Electrician. You know the ones ??

I'm having a look at the map and the demographic split of the result, and it seems to me those who have had their day are not the " The doers, makers, providers of food", but basically 65+, who have been spoiled by the powers at be with their triple lock pensions. The same who typically own their homes, live in areas with little or no immigration, and whose pensions and beloved NHS are paid for by the generation they thumbed their nose at, and by the immigrants they fear so much.
Post edited at 10:22
3
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Like.

I also, with respect, hope you're wrong, and certainly think it won't be as bad as you might imagine.

Hope I didn't sound like a defensive kneejerker. Happens after a while.

Let's all move on together eh?
 John_Hat 25 Jun 2016
In reply to arch:
> A bit like the sneering of most of the replies wouldn't you say ??

Look, I have been, in my life, bloody poor. As in wondering-how-I'm-going-to-eat poor. As in working my way around the taxi ranks in a northern town at 4am looking for spare change on the floor so I can buy food poor.

I'm not sneering. The poor of this country are in a cr@p place. This government is making things a lot worse. Those at the bottom are being utterly screwed by the government. Giving the government a bloody nose is a good idea. They deserve booting out and replacing by people who give a toss about those at the bottom.

However the place that should have been done was in the general election.

The EU, generally, is much further left of politics than the current government. So the EU makes our government support the poor in a lot of ways our government really doesn't want to do. It also funds a lot of work that directly makes the place better for poorer people.

Voting leave allows the current tory government to take that money back and spend it on what they want to spend it on - which won't be those at the bottom!
Post edited at 10:25
1
In reply to RomTheBear:

> basically 65+, on their triple lock pensions, who own their homes, and live in areas with little or no immigration, and whose pensions and beloved NHS are paid for

Do you think they alone accounted for the 52% who expressed a preference?
 RomTheBear 25 Jun 2016
In reply to John_Hat:

> I'm not sneering. The poor of this country are in a cr@p place. This government is making things a lot worse. Those at the bottom are being utterly screwed by the government. Giving them a bloody nose is a good idea. They deserve booting out and replacing by people who give a toss about those at the bottom.

There are general elections for that ?
5
 WB 25 Jun 2016
In reply to MG:
> Perhaps. I don't have much respect for thick idiots who don't know what they voted for (plenty on the web openly admitting this). You won. Now get on and sort out the mess you've created rather immediately playing the victim again. As JHat said, it's thick idiots who will suffer unless you do.

i can't see where J-hat called people thick idiots.

The people who voted out did so because that is what they believed was right, based on what they understood and the situation they are in. It does not make them thick. However calling people thick because they do not agree with you is very stupid.
Post edited at 10:23
2
 John_Hat 25 Jun 2016
In reply to RomTheBear:

> There are general elections for that ?

Point. Now Edited.
 MG 25 Jun 2016
In reply to WB:

I didn't call them thick because they disagree with me. But because they are.
16
 Dr.S at work 25 Jun 2016
In reply to RomTheBear:

> I'm having a look at the map and the demographic split of the result, and it seems to me those who have had their day are not the " The doers, makers, providers of food", but basically 65+, who have been spoiled by the powers at be with their triple lock pensions. The same who typically own their homes, live in areas with little or no immigration, and whose pensions and beloved NHS are paid for by the generation they thumbed their nose at, and by the immigrants they fear so much.

Yes a stark split - much more profound than most of the regional differences.

It's worth noting however that turnout was lower in the demographic that supported 'remain', we perhaps did not care enough.
 Badgers 25 Jun 2016
In reply to arch:

I don't think the majority of people have the kind of sneering disregard that you describe for normal people in the UK or elsewhere. I agree that there are large areas of the country that feel left out of decision making in their country and feel that the headline political debates don't mean anything to their daily lives or worries tho.

The notion of giving the establishment a bloody nose makes no sense. The establishment individuals don't care either way on a personal level. Boris and Cameron will remain multi millionaires. Each moves on to a new phase in their careers and will straddle any international treaties in a manner that serves themselves best.

The victory is one for the press who have demonised politicians across the board (some fairly, some not so) to the point that the public have no faith and that debate is little more than sound bites and yahboo banter. There was never a chance of a debate with honesty and focus on the facts. As such the frustration you have described has culminated in a decision that the 'elite' will adapt and thrive off and the notion of democratic control is now further than ever from the average bloke on the street. Decision making is now locked into a few major press coroporations and the businesses that will dictate our trade terms.

I cannot agree with "good on them". The economic and political contraction of this nation will worsen things for the very demographic who have enabled it and Britain will wither and those who make the bedrock of our nation will suffer the most.
2
 RomTheBear 25 Jun 2016
In reply to Just Another Dave:

Nope but they certainly are the only demographic that had a majority for leave, and a huge one, and that's what made the difference, because it's a huge demographic.
The same demographic who put in power a Tory government that had to impose harsh cuts on the working poor so that we could pay for their generous pensions.

I don't really blame them, to a large extent people vote for what's appears to be good for them.
Let's be honest, we don't really care for our elderly in this country, we're OK to pay them their pension, but socially they are pretty excluded.
An ageing population and the resulting demographic imbalance we have certainly has as implication for politics and I think we're seeing some of that in the way politics have shifted.
1
 Rog Wilko 25 Jun 2016
In reply to arch:

If you've been watching the news on TV over last few weeks you will have seen large numbers of Brexit voters being interviewed who,as soon as they open their mouths, make it clear that they know nothing, apart perhaps from what they've seen in the Sun. Yet their vote still counts. It makes me wonder about democracy, sometimes. Time for me to take shelter somewhere.
3
 Bootrock 25 Jun 2016
In reply to arch:

‘If it’s a Yes we will say “on we go”, and if it’s a No we will say “we continue”.’
(Jean-Claude Juncker, President of the European Council)

“They must go on voting until they get it right.”
(Jose Manuel Barroso, President of the European Commission)
 wercat 25 Jun 2016
In reply to Rog Wilko:

God help us!
2
In reply to arch:
A thread which articulates how i feel about this calamity. The press have a lot to answer for. It sickened me listening to the well publicised old war veteran the other day who got emotional about the lives lost during ww2 and the fact he had got his country back, no longer being governed by Germany.

Doubtless he was being cheered by the masses.

What he failed to acknowledge was that this European project was in part created to prevent a recurrence and to promote greater cohesion and harmony across borders. I sympathise with his emotions for lost comrades but the irony of his words were that he was now spouting nationalist and ill informed nonsense similar to the nazi right he so rightfully despises.

What value did he bring to the argument and why weren't his views challenged by someone.

52pc of the electorate got it badly wrong in my opinion.
Post edited at 11:40
2
 David Riley 25 Jun 2016
In reply to John_Hat:

> The EU, generally, is much further left of politics than the current government. So the EU makes our government support the poor in a lot of ways our government really doesn't want to do. It also funds a lot of work that directly makes the place better for poorer people.

> Voting leave allows the current tory government to take that money back and spend it on what they want to spend it on - which won't be those at the bottom!

Undoubtedly some people voted leave for wrong reasons.
But voting to remain for the reason that you wanted to limit the abilities of your majority elected government, that you didn't agree with, is also wrong.
5
 RomTheBear 25 Jun 2016
In reply to David Riley:
I respect anyone who voted leave because they made a careful assessment of the pros and con and thought it would be the best thing for this country.

To those who voted leave to "give them a bloody nose" and haven't bothered doing any kind of research or apply any form of critical thinking, well sorry, but I can't help but have little empathy.

Most of the leavers I spoke to who wanted leave because of immigration and sovereignty now say "it'll be fine we can be in EEA". WTF ?
Post edited at 12:57
1
 David Riley 25 Jun 2016
In reply to RomTheBear:

I agree.
1
 John_Hat 25 Jun 2016
In reply to David Riley:

> But voting to remain for the reason that you wanted to limit the abilities of your majority elected government, that you didn't agree with, is also wrong.

Oh, I agree. I was trying to find an angle that might appeal.
 marsbar 25 Jun 2016
In reply to arch:

I worry that the poorest will be the hardest hit by this and that many of them voted for lies like funding the NHS instead of Europe.

That was never going to happen. But people believed it. Naive rather than thick maybe.

As for voting remain to try to stop the elected government from doing damage, thats me and proud. Europe stopped Ian Duncan Smith from even worse benefit cuts, Europe was out only hope of stopping TTIP and as I and most of us didn't actually vote Tory but we got them anyway with our dodgy boundaries that is all I could do.

I don't think we are in for a good time in the next few years. I would love to be wrong.
1
 DerwentDiluted 25 Jun 2016
In reply to arch:

None of this really matters, time will tell who is right.

I'll be working my hardest to make it work, there's nothing to gain from waiting for it to fail to simply say 'I told you so'. That's like watching your ship sink and saying 'I told you not to fire that cannon ball through two decks and the hull' instead of grabbing a hammer and some nails. Nothing to stop you whispering 'fu€kwits' under your breath though.
Lusk 25 Jun 2016
In reply to DerwentDiluted:

> fu€kwits



deliberate?

 David Riley 25 Jun 2016
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> It sickened me listening to the well publicised old war veteran the other day who got emotional about the lives lost during ww2 and the fact he had got his country back, no longer being governed by Germany.

> Doubtless he was being cheered by the masses.

> What he failed to acknowledge was that this European project was in part created to prevent a recurrence and to promote greater cohesion and harmony across borders. I sympathise with his emotions for lost comrades but the irony of his words were that he was now spouting nationalist and ill informed nonsense similar to the nazi right he so rightfully despises.

> What value did he bring to the argument and why weren't his views challenged by someone.


I'm going to challenge your views.
The distinguishing features of the nazi that he helped save you from were :

They believed the Germans were superior to any other race.
They intended to subjugate or kill everyone else and rule the world for 1000 years.

Rather like isis.


Not wanting to be in the EU is in no way similar to this.
It is not nationalist and ill informed nonsense for him to say he's glad that our country is now entirely controlled by our own elected government.
It is extremely unreasonable to suggest that he is wrong to say he would rather Germans were not involved.
I don't think he intended to be even impolite to Germans. But you should forgive him if he did.
To compare him to a nazi is awful.
4
 MonkeyPuzzle 25 Jun 2016
In reply to arch:

> ...., went to the polling station, punched the establishment squarely in the face and gave them a bloody nose.

And somehow managed in doing so to kick themselves in the bollocks. The dull ache may not set in for a bit, but it's going to make the eyes water all right.
1
 orejas 25 Jun 2016
In reply to arch:

Unfortunately, there will be less opportunities for people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, and that is the hard thing to explain to people, that rightly or wrongly, see their jobs threatened by immigrants ( like me - 24 years living in the Uk). Businesses hate uncertainty, and the UK is an uncertain place right now. Will they invest in the UK? Maybe, but certainly less of them than would have done it before.
Arch, I can only hope that construction keeps happening in London, that people employ you rather than botch the job themselves, etc but i suspect that it will happen less than it did last week as there will be less money around. Both you and the foreign electrician I suspect will have less work, and you might have to consider working in other countries ( Ireland, Germany...) like people had to do when the economy was not as open as it is today (and a lot that openness is EU related).
So, yes you have given me ( a foreigner), the government, the elite a bloody nose, but trust me your future (and mine) will likely be no better but worse for it.
Joaquin
1
OP arch 25 Jun 2016
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> A thread which articulates how i feel about this calamity. The press have a lot to answer for. It sickened me listening to the well publicised old war veteran the other day who got emotional about the lives lost during ww2 and the fact he had got his country back, no longer being governed by Germany.

> Doubtless he was being cheered by the masses.

> What he failed to acknowledge was that this European project was in part created to prevent a recurrence and to promote greater cohesion and harmony across borders. I sympathise with his emotions for lost comrades but the irony of his words were that he was now spouting nationalist and ill informed nonsense similar to the nazi right he so rightfully despises.

> What value did he bring to the argument and why weren't his views challenged by someone.



Yeah, I mean what has that guy ever done for Europe ??
6
 David Riley 25 Jun 2016
In reply to marsbar:

> lies like funding the NHS instead of Europe.
> That was never going to happen.

I would be surprised if there are not increased payments to the NHS labelled as money that would have gone to EU.
Of course, even if they put marsbar in charge of that, there would be no way you could prove it had really happened.
 Timmd 25 Jun 2016
In reply to John_Hat:
> I would say that the people who voted leave are to be pitied more than anything else.

> This referendum may, or may not, hurt me. I'm very highly qualified and have a good job. There's quite a decent buffer between the amount I earn and the amount I actually need to live. Yes, I'll pay a lot more for holidays, cars, TVs, etc but frankly I can afford it and my lifestyle won't change much.

> The people who will be totally screwed are precisely the people who voted to leave. They *don't* have that buffer. The margin between being able to pay for the weeks food and not being able to pay isn't big, if it's there at all.

> What this vote means, for those you value, those at the bottom, there will be less jobs, which will pay less, the bosses will be able to treat you even more like dirt than they already do and stuff you want will cost more.

> People who can't pay for food may turn to crime. Overwhelmingly, the victims of crime in poor areas are other poor people. Immigration won't change much (they've already admitted that). However all the workers protections will get stripped away. Ever heard of the EU working time directive, for example?

> That's what I voted AGAINST. It's what you voted FOR.

I couldn't have put it better.

Except that I'm not highly qualified or very rich (not by a long way). I'm a vaguely qualified person who'll be on

minimum wage jobs for a long time yet.

I think the poorer people who've voted to leave have just punched themselves in the sensitive parts.

( Grow some balls - disliker, and reply to my post about why you don't agree. )
Post edited at 15:03
3
 Timmd 25 Jun 2016
In reply to arch:

> Yeah, I mean what has that guy ever done for Europe ??

Genuine question. What does what happened 60 years ago have to do with the current EU?

It's not about how bravely he fought, which is 'in the past', but about 'the present and future'.

There's no limit to how thankful I am for those who fought so bravely during WW2, neither of my grandfathers came out of it unscathed, one was physically affected and the other mentally.

 Yanis Nayu 25 Jun 2016
In reply to arch:

Are you going to answer my question?
 Goucho 25 Jun 2016
In reply to arch:

> ...............You know, the stupid people, ill-educated, un-academic. The ones that quite possibly empty our bins, clean our windows. The doers, makers, providers of food. The ones that shouldn't be allowed to vote because they are too thick to understand. A bit like me who left school with no qualifications but managed to become an Electrician. You know the ones ??

> The people continually sneered at by the political elite and always being told what's best for them by the said elite, even though the most of the elite wouldn't have a clue what it's like near the bottom.

> Well, two days ago the ne'er do wells got off their couches, stopped watching Jezza Kyle, went to the polling station, punched the establishment squarely in the face and gave them a bloody nose. There was a warning shot fired at the last general election with the rise in votes for UKIP. "Just a blip" "A protest vote" "Nothing will come of it" More arrogance from those "Who know best"

> Well, the people have spoken, you may not like it, it may well be rough for a while, but that is the will of the people, and good on um for it.

> "FREEDOM FOR TOOTING"

> (Unless Tooting voted to stay in that is)

I hope you've got plenty of Vaseline in the cupboard.
OP arch 25 Jun 2016
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

I'm neither happy or sad that we've left. I doubt my circumstances will change much.

I voted out. To me Europe wasn't working.




Better now ??
2
 Yanis Nayu 25 Jun 2016
In reply to arch:

I think that answers my question all too eloquently.

Presuming that you voted leave to make things better, for whom do you think things will be better, and by when?
2
OP arch 25 Jun 2016
In reply to Yanis Nayu:
Well at least you've not called me a racist because of my views, so thank you for that.

Who knows how long it will take. Consecutive Governments always claim they are putting right the wrongs of the previous incumbents for years, so lets wait a see shall we ??






Anyway, I still haven't watched todays rugby, I'll be shouting for the Aussies of course, because to do otherwise would be Nationalistic, and we can't have that, can we ??

So I'm off to watch that.
Post edited at 16:36
 Alan M 25 Jun 2016
In reply to arch:

The funny thing I find is taking the lobbyists I met the other week campaigning for leave. Proud to be British don't want to be European etc etc etc.

Well when Scotland leaves and we have to repeal the Act of Union there technically won't be a United Kingdom Of Great Britain anymore. The irony made me laugh but the guys I spoke to had never heard of the union of the crowns, treaty of union or Act of Union. Not sure most of the out voters really understood what they were voting out for.

The news is now full of out voters saying that they would vote remain if they could vote again. That guy on the news yesterday saying he didn't think his vote would count!! LOL you just can't make it up.
1
OP arch 25 Jun 2016
In reply to arch:

> Well at least you've not called me a racist because of my views, so thank you for that.

> Who knows how long it will take. Consecutive Governments always claim they are putting right the wrongs of the previous incumbents for years, so lets wait a see shall we ??

> Anyway, I still haven't watched todays rugby, I'll be shouting for the Aussies of course, because to do otherwise would be Nationalistic, and we can't have that, can we ??

> So I'm off to watch that.


Matt Toomua is playing well. He's off to Leicester next season, thank fook he's not French, he'd never get in.............
 Dave the Rave 25 Jun 2016
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

> I suspect they will also be the same people who suffer most for their "victory".

> But I guess it'll feel good for a while. Like eating a shit tonne of ice cream.

Yeah. But at least those arrogant, educated rich feckers are going to feel some pain too. 'We're all in it togeva'
 Yanis Nayu 25 Jun 2016
In reply to Dave the Rave:

> Yeah. But at least those arrogant, educated rich feckers are going to feel some pain too. 'We're all in it togeva'

I doubt it. If you or I become 10% poorer, we're f*cked. If they become 10% poorer it makes no difference to their lives. The rich are always ok.
2
 Wainers44 25 Jun 2016
In reply to Alan M:



> The news is now full of out voters saying that they would vote remain if they could vote again. That guy on the news yesterday saying he didn't think his vote would count!! LOL you just can't make it up.

It's all a bit like a really good piss up. You have a great laugh, feel really part of everything and do stupid stuff....


....then you wake up much poorer, possibly with people you don't recognise, wondering how you actually got in such a state, and swearing never to be so silly again...


....oops too late......

 Alan M 25 Jun 2016
In reply to Wainers44:
> It's all a bit like a really good piss up. You have a great laugh, feel really part of everything and do stupid stuff....

> ....then you wake up much poorer, possibly with people you don't recognise, wondering how you actually got in such a state, and swearing never to be so silly again...

> ....oops too late......

Exactly. In my opinion all that is going to come out of this is we will all probably end up poorer, less protection and have half a country left.

I pray, as it was nearly 50-50 in the referendum that we are able to negotiate and retain our access to the free market, freedom of movement etc. I can only hope that our negotiators can find away of providing that but having a few more controls that pacify the out votes.

To quote my neighbour, 'make your money and bail to somewhere with a better quality of life'.
Post edited at 22:49
1
OP arch 25 Jun 2016
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> A thread which articulates how i feel about this calamity. The press have a lot to answer for. It sickened me listening to the well publicised old war veteran the other day who got emotional about the lives lost during ww2 and the fact he had got his country back, no longer being governed by Germany.

> Doubtless he was being cheered by the masses.

> What he failed to acknowledge was that this European project was in part created to prevent a recurrence and to promote greater cohesion and harmony across borders. I sympathise with his emotions for lost comrades but the irony of his words were that he was now spouting nationalist and ill informed nonsense similar to the nazi right he so rightfully despises.

> What value did he bring to the argument and why weren't his views challenged by someone.

> 52pc of the electorate got it badly wrong in my opinion.

I hope you don't mind, but I've taken a screenshoot of this. Apart from the last line of your post, I'd like to think you may regret posting the rest of it.
9
 Yanis Nayu 26 Jun 2016
In reply to arch:

> I hope you don't mind, but I've taken a screenshoot of this. Apart from the last line of your post, I'd like to think you may regret posting the rest of it.

I suspect you taking a screenshot is the least of his worries now.
 jkarran 26 Jun 2016
In reply to David Riley:

> But voting to remain for the reason that you wanted to limit the abilities of your majority elected government, that you didn't agree with, is also wrong.

No it's not, not when it comes.es to tackling problems that require long term strategic plans rather than the short term tactical positioning that dominates national politics where it's more important to undo the last government's work than to take a step toward a necessary if unglamorous goal like decarbonising the economy rather than stoking it at any cost. In that case it is entirely reasonable to limit the powers of national government.
Jk
Jim C 26 Jun 2016
In reply to Removed UserDeleted bagger:

> Well said but stand by for the abuse.

In the Scottish referendum the Yes ( out) camp were accused of sour grapes and on- line vitriol , and were much despised for it.

The only thing we learn from history it seems (is we never learn from history. )

In reply to jkarran:

> No it's not, not when it comes.es to tackling problems that require long term strategic plans rather than the short term tactical positioning that dominates national politics where it's more important to undo the last government's work than to take a step toward a necessary if unglamorous goal like decarbonising the economy rather than stoking it at any cost. In that case it is entirely reasonable to limit the powers of national government.

> Jk

Exactly. This is the answer to all this bollocks about democracy and sovereignty - that actually having a few checks and balances isn't a bad idea, If we did everything by plebiscite, we'd still be hanging random Irishman who once took a train in the same city a bomb went off.

jcm
2
 Yanis Nayu 26 Jun 2016
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Quite agree - for important issues like climate change, we almost need a benevolent dictator to take unpopular decisions in the long term interest of the majority. I think we're about to see just how dangerous populist politicians can be.
1
In reply to arch:
> I hope you don't mind, but I've taken a screenshoot of this. Apart from the last line of your post, I'd like to think you may regret posting the rest of it.

I regret none of it, which in the fullness if time will not be what the outers feel.

Is there any part of my post which you particularly dislike or disagree with?

Ive read it again and I'll make it less verbose.

Old man, in his twilight years, makes statement about not being governed by Germany and votes to leave.

Ignoring his history for a moment, anyone with any sense of what the EU is and does and sees this as a rational reason for leaving has to be completely ignorant of the facts or delusional. Do you agree or not?

I watched a clip from a Channel 4 News trip to a northern town the morning after the vote (I wont name it through fear of insulting anyone). One guy said he has voted out to stop the Muslims coming to the UK. He said he was fine about the Europeans but he didnt want the Muslims - can you not see the tragic absurdity of that statement? This type of rational thought together with the sweet old man above, I fear, is not in isolation. To borrow parlance from this very town; If brains were dynamite, he'd have enough to blow off his hat.

I should add that you and I arent very different. I come from very working class stock, had very little as I grew up and am the first in my direct family line to attend uni, which I had to do during evening and weekend classes. This was whilst holding down a job and looking after a young family. My parents did their best but I didn't want to burden them going when I left school. So all remain voters are not elite middle class types.

My final word on this matter on any thread or SM post will be this. I voted in, not because im not patriotic or dont love my country but because the arguments I heard made more sense and I trusted the people more whom were making them, including the governer of our national bank, one of the brightest economic minds on the planet. I studied the options, thought long and hard about it from my generation's and my daughter's perspective and I came to my decision. It was hard and I almost wavered right at the end but on balance reckoned that whilst imperfect, being in was better than being out.

Some of the reasons we hear for leaving as we walk down an average high street just makes you realise that some people shouldn't have been allowed to vote on this issue.

I will now roll up my sleeves, try and be a little bit more productive than last week and hope, no pray (which is hard for a devout atheist) that I was wrong.
Post edited at 08:29
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 Mr Lopez 26 Jun 2016
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> I watched a clip from a Channel 4 News trip to a northern town the morning after the vote (I wont name it through fear of insulting anyone). One guy said he has voted out to stop the Muslims coming to the UK. He said he was fine about the Europeans but he didnt want the Muslims - can you not see the tragic absurdity of that statement?

There you go

https://twitter.com/junayed_/status/746431614285025280?s=04
1
 Yanis Nayu 26 Jun 2016
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Exactly my situation, thoughts etc.
1
 Yanis Nayu 26 Jun 2016
In reply to Mr Lopez:
> There you go


And you are accused of intellectual snobbery for despairing that this idiot had exactly the same say in my future as I did...

If that's democracy you can stick it up your arse.
Post edited at 08:43
1
 Siward 26 Jun 2016
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

What's the alternative?

Limit the vote to those earning an income?

Limit the vote to those with two grade Bs at A level or above?

Or to the property owning classes?

Have little old me as a benevolent dictator?

(Now, I may be onto something here, but I doubt I have popular support...)
 David Riley 26 Jun 2016
In reply to jkarran:

At a time when many were so angry that people had voted us out of the EU just to get at the UK government. ( For the wrong reasons. )
I was pointing out that others had voted remain to get at the UK government.
 Yanis Nayu 26 Jun 2016
In reply to Siward:

How about not having a binary referendum on a matter of the utmost significance to the whole country?

It's just occurred to me that Murdoch (who has complained that he can't influence the EU the way he can the British government) now has exactly what he wants, and with his two trusty lieutenants at the heart of government.
1
 David Riley 26 Jun 2016
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

A man > makes statement about not being governed by Germany and votes to leave.

> anyone with any sense of what the EU is and does and sees this as a rational reason for leaving has to be completely ignorant of the facts or delusional. Do you agree or not?


Why would anybody agree with that ?

He is stating his reason for voting to leave. That he wanted all decisions to be made in the UK and none to be made by consensus of other countries. That ( Not will we be better off ? ) was the key question of the referendum and the most obvious and rational reason to vote leave.
1
Removed User 26 Jun 2016
In reply to Siward:

> What's the alternative?

> Limit the vote to those earning an income?

> Limit the vote to those with two grade Bs at A level or above?

> Or to the property owning classes?

> Have little old me as a benevolent dictator?

> (Now, I may be onto something here, but I doubt I have popular support...)

None of the above and thats why our democracy is run through parliament and the party system where we elect MPs who hopefully should have more knowledge about complex issues like the EU than the average man in the street. I was never a fan of Thatcher but she didn't believe in referendums and she was right about that in my view(sticks in my throat to say that). Referendums are for populists who just repeat what the great unwashed want to hear not what is reality. The Ancient Greeks had a version of referendums to make decisions - everybody in the arena voted on a particular issue,except that various bully boys known as tyrants with their gangs started intimidating people to vote with them. The nearest modern equivalent of the tyrants are the Murdoch media Empire and that other motley crew the Rothermeres who run the Daily Mail, false propaganda,xenophobia and fear are their watchwords.
 Yanis Nayu 26 Jun 2016
In reply to Removed Userjess13:

Well said.

It's interesting to consider the consequences of lying in various arena. If you get your partner to take 3 points for a speeding fine you go to prison. Lie to the British public in the most important decision they will ever make and you get handed the keys to the country. There should be a criminal offence of lying in political office.
1
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

> And you are accused of intellectual snobbery for despairing that this idiot had exactly the same say in my future as I did...

> If that's democracy you can stick it up your arse.

Yanis, there have been plenty of people like that for generations. It's nothing new. you are sounding more and more militant with each post. If you think your view is so much more important then possibly get involved in politics and try to make change? Ask yourself why so many people feel that way, theres heaps of interesting analysis coming out on the failings that lead us here. Maybe direct your anger there, because ranting about some bloke you disagree with having the same power as you at the ballot box makes you look silly (IMO) and i;m sure you're not,
 Yanis Nayu 26 Jun 2016
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

You're quite right.

I quite understand that there are a large number of people who are disaffected and I'm pretty sure I understand why, I've read plenty about it all before and after the referendum. I also understand that it's easy to scapegoat to people in this situation. I think one of the tragedies of this whole thing is that I think those people have been used for other people's political ends. They have made a point to the establishment but I fear that they will be the ones that suffer the most, and that upsets me. I think the thing that irked me the most was going to work and being told by degree-educated, professionally-qualified people that they pretty much voted out for a bit of a laugh. I'm angry with them more so than anyone on UKC or groups of people I don't know, but UKC has been my outlet. I have no interest in being proved right; I would much rather be wrong. I'd said on another thread that I was bowing-out, that I'd said enough, but I wanted to reply to your measured post.

Cheers.
1
In reply to Just Another Dave:

I love the way that many are/were screaming "you can't tell us Brits what to do" as they voted exactly the way that the Australian born American citizen multi billionaire media tycoon told them to vote.

My rule of thumb is that Murdoch does what's good for Murdoch and it is rarely good for the country.
1
 Timmd 26 Jun 2016
In reply to Graeme Alderson:
> I love the way that many are/were screaming "you can't tell us Brits what to do" as they voted exactly the way that the Australian born American citizen multi billionaire media tycoon told them to vote.

> My rule of thumb is that Murdoch does what's good for Murdoch and it is rarely good for the country.

He has shares in a fracking company which would benefit from a relaxation of environmental protection laws, which have been underpinned by the EU for the past 40 years.

We have the Wildlife & Countryside act, and perhaps one or two other bits and pieces and that's about it, all the rest is EU based.

We need to act now to stop from losing the environmental protection we currently enjoy. It's the main reason all my ecology/conservation friends have been worried about a Brexit - any kind of loss of environmental protection.
Post edited at 16:32
1
 Timmd 26 Jun 2016
In reply to Timmd:
Does somebody not like reality?

Murdoch 'does' have shares and we 'don't' have very much environmental protections of our own once the EU stuff is removed.

Welcome to the world of Brexit....where facts are disregarded due to being disliked?
Post edited at 17:23
 MG 26 Jun 2016
In reply to Timmd:

Not me but perhaps not everyone buys the hyperbole. I am sure other/replica protection would be put in place if the leave.
1
 Timmd 26 Jun 2016
In reply to MG:
What hyperbole? Most of the protective legislation 'is' EU based, and given the record of the Conservatives just recently, with their family (and financial?) ties to the fracking industry, there's no reason at all to suppose that they'll suddenly stop and pause and make sure we carry over all the EU based environmental protections.

Look into what they've already done which is in the other direction. I think your use of the word hyperbole is possibly hyperbolic..?

Just before Brexit there was the EU launching a court order against the Conservatives for an environmental reason which currently escapes me, and it was the Conservatives who vert recently blocked an EIA (environmental impact assessment) always having to be carried out before fracking is given any kind of go ahead.


Post edited at 17:32
 MG 26 Jun 2016
In reply to Timmd:

The idea no protection would replace existing provisions is hyperbolic, and the idea that conservatives have no interest.in the environment. As an example, the Wildlife Act you mention was enacted under a Tory government.
 Timmd 26 Jun 2016
In reply to MG:
Hmmn, but I never did say that 'no protection' would replace what already exists, or that Conservatives as a rule don't have any interest in protection of the environment...

I did post this though. 'We need to act now to stop from losing the environmental protection we currently enjoy. It's the main reason all my ecology/conservation friends have been worried about a Brexit - any kind of loss of environmental protection.' Which in my head was saying that to keep all the protection that we currently enjoy, we need to act now.



Post edited at 17:36
In reply to MG:

> Not me but perhaps not everyone buys the hyperbole. I am sure other/replica protection would be put in place if the leave.

Are you?? I'm not. It never was before - why would the Tories start now?

jcm
1
 MG 26 Jun 2016
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> Are you?? I'm not. It never was before - why would the Tories start now?

As.above, it was. By the Tories. I agree it is a lower priority for them than it should be, however.
In reply to Graeme Alderson:

For "the country", substitute Australia, UK or USA as the case may be.

Any good deeds that Murdoch may have done (which I am not aware of) are eclipsed my the monumental harm is has done on several occasions, such as Fox News' totally biased - unfair and unbalanced - promotion of the Iraq "war.
1
 Rog Wilko 27 Jun 2016
In reply to MG:

> The idea no protection would replace existing provisions is hyperbolic, and the idea that conservatives have no interest.in the environment. As an example, the Wildlife Act you mention was enacted under a Tory government.

Remember the CRoW Act? The Tories wouldn't have passed that in a million years. For outdoor folk the most significant pieces of legislation since the National Parks were established in late 1940s.
 lummox 27 Jun 2016
In reply to arch:

What " the people " have done is bent over and offered their collective ringpieces to BoJo, Gove, Farage et al. If it wasn't so tragic, it would be funny.

Enjoy Brexit.

( Grew up in Harehills in Leeds, neither parent had FE, don't make a great deal of money by way of reference )
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 Pete Pozman 27 Jun 2016
In reply to Siward:

> What's the alternative?

At the very least to give the guy correct information. If he wants to vote on the basis of hatred he should at least be hating the people he wants to hate.

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