UKC

Apart from civil war and round heads fighting the wigs has British politics ever been so complex?

And when the dust settles, what will the new political landscape look like?

In reply to The Lemming:
If you had been around between 1964 when Wilson was elected and 1979 when Maggie was elected, you would take a different view. Those (almost) 15 years of socialism corrupted the economy and corrupted politics, complex putting it mildly.
That's why the Iron Lady was elected.
The future is bright.

In reply to Dave Cumberland:

Are you touting for Theresa May?!

In reply to Dave Cumberland:

Shall we gloss over Maggie starting a conflict to win an election?

In reply to The Lemming:
Starting or finishing?

In reply to The Lemming:

I'm wondering if there was a mixture of motives, patriotism/'doing the right thing' as well as political?

In reply to The Lemming:

Depends. If we leave Boris (Brexit Ringer) and his chums to guide us through the storm of the decade much further right, he is after all the friend of the bankers and the Barclay's. Theyll be no change for the better ( in or out of the E.U.) if people don't use the opportunity to engage in politics.

D

In reply to The Lemming:

Not so many died as a result of our politics this last few years.. unusual compared to most of our history as a country.

In reply to Offwidth:

Iraq being just outside the "last few years"?

In reply to Ridge:

Iraq was exactly the sort of perspective I was thinking of... a war we were pulled into by Blair's lies where arguably up to half a million people died a violent death through its consequencies (50, 000 plus combatants directly). Its OK though, as Chilcott will tell us soon what a naughty boy he was.

In reply to The Lemming:

Am starting to wonder if Britain will leave. Do not see the numbers or will in Parliament. Referendums are not binding. To stay politicians will have to do nothing substantive. Which they are very good at.

In reply to Offwidth:
" Its OK though, as Chilcott will tell us soon what a naughty boy he was."

Some are saying the reason there are mass resignations in the PLP is the pending release of the report. They don't want to be around when Corbyn stands up and apologises to the nation on behalf of the Labour party.

http://www.sodiumhaze.org/2016/06/26/its-still-the-iraq-war-stupid/

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

I'm thinking the mass resignations are more to do with Corbins complete failure to make any impact in the referendum campaign - he was absolutely dripping wet, I don't think I'd even follow him into a pub never mind a government.

In reply to cander:


So its Corbin's fault that the Tory game of Russian Roulette ended up with the wrong result for the leader of that party?

How does that work?

However, the Tories are in active revolt among themselves and the Labour party is in meltdown. Has there ever been a time in modern history with such active turmoil among our political leaders which is sending ripples around the world?

In reply to MikeTS:

But there is much crowing and delight in the pubs. I went to my local last night and the sentiments expressed (with which I did not agree) were: "This will teach the rich a lesson", "The best thing that has happened to England since the Second World War", "I don't care a monkey's toss about Europe", "The Scots can get stuffed", "The Palestinians are a lower form of life"

I was shouted down for expressing different views.

When is this ugliness going to stop? or has it just begun?

Oh, the other big sentiment expressed was that "I should get over it", as though this was a simple event like a goal in football and the only problem with it is all in my head.

In reply to MikeTS:


There may not be the will in parliament but there will be the worry what will happen to their jobs come 2020 (at the latest) should this be kicked down the road indefinitely. There will also be very significant international pressure to start putting our affairs in order. Beyond that narrow self interest there must also be worry as to what might replace the status quo. Exit or something that can be convincingly dressed up as exit has to happen, the consequences of causing this much instability internationally and ignoring that many people who already feel disaffected domestically to actually achieve nothing are unthinkable. There can be no going back and I say that as someone profoundly disappointed we have to go this way.
jk

In reply to Timmd:


Please don't say "patriotism".

In reply to John Stainforth:





It's going to get very ugly. I just hope nobody gets hurt. Sorry I mean nobody else (Jo Cox RIP)

In reply to Pete Pozman:

I ment from her perspective, rather than my own.

Was vaguely just given her the benefit of the doubt as it were...

In reply to cander:


true. He is one of those permanently glass half empty people, a serial complainer. He has spent his entire career as a back bencher, complaining about what everyone else was doing, his own party, the other party, any party. At no point did he get off his butt and do something positive himself. Even when made leader, he lacks any ideas or leadership to make things any better for anyone, but he still keeps complaining about others, whilst doing nothing meaningful himself. The guy just never left the student union common room.

In reply to The Lemming:

It's not actually a Tory thing - they happened to be in power and made the "courageous" decision to give the British electorate their say - surprise surprise they didn't get the result they expected - democracy - what can you do!

However Corbin was lacklustre and completely ineffective in the remain side and failed to represent the remainers in Labour. But I suppose he's actually got the result he wanted so it might all have been a ploy on his part, but I'm not so sure he's that Machiavellian (Mandelson I could believe, but not Corbin).

The world needs a few ripples now and then keeps the politicians on their toes, never good to let them get too comfortable.

In reply to cander:



You've no idea; have you?

In reply to Pete Pozman:

I probably do but since I've read your other posts I'm not insulted

In reply to John Stainforth:

There were clearly no champagne socialists in your local, many would argue the ugliness comes from them!
Nothing new - this has been building for many years.

In reply to Dave Cumberland:
Genuine question. Who are the champagne socialists - and what do they think/do?

I've never been able to grasp who the term is ment to fit.

For the record I'm an unemployed/minimum wage type...

In reply to cander:


Apologies. I see now you were being ironic. You do appreciate the tidal wave of hatred and disruption coming our way.

In reply to Timmd:
One (Falconer ) famously in that mode just resigned from the shadow cabinet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Falconer,_Baron_Falconer_of_Thoroton

In reply to Offwidth:
Very rich & high up people (class wise) who claim to be socialists without putting much towards improving things through how they act in other words?

People can't help the life chances they're born into if it's anything else...

In reply to The Lemming:


The Tories acted like cvnts, that's their fault and entirely expected. Labour did not act like an opposition, that's Corbyns fault and why he has to go.

In reply to Tyler:

Labour did not act like an opposition to the referendum?



What would they be opposing?

In reply to cander:

What you can do it to vote for a party with reversing the referendum decision as its core policy in a general election as soon as practical. The two main parties are in complete disarray, half the population is united in being strongly opposed to Brexit, all we need is a party to vote for.

Until recently this would have been the Lib Dems. As a default Lib Dem voter myself, I have to say I can't get too excited about Tim Farron - maybe Nick Clegg could redeem himself by galvanising an urgent campaign to rescue the situation? It's no exaggeration to say that this is about saving the UK as we recognise it.

If not it might have to be the SNP!

In reply to Dave Garnett:



Or UKIP.

Now that is the scary prospect and future for the country.

In reply to The Lemming:



Labour did not act like an opposition to Brexiters, the official labour position was for Reamin but up they were completely ineffectual to the point of negligence

In reply to Dave Cumberland:


Sadly I remember both of those event. We'll ride this out and be our normal tolerant selves soon enough.

In reply to The Lemming:



I think it's more about them not providing an opposition in government. It gets very easy to blame not enough hospitals, not enough school places etc on immigration/the EU when you haven't got a proper opposition pointing out that these things are due to lack of planning and investment from the UK government to lessen the impact of such things.

The EU has been the press and politicians whipping boy for years - Can't fulfil the election promises you made? - easy just blame it on the EU and or immigration.

It's easy to say "we're full" when you aren't building enough houses for those already here.

In reply to Timmd:

Not you!

Champagne socialist:
Well-off, liberal hypocrite, often with a degree, nose in the trough, often a public sector job and fat pension, do as I say not as I do, very good at spending someone else's money. They don't understand working people, esp those who vote Conservative.

In reply to Dave Cumberland:
I guess there's the taxes argument? I came across somebody earning 150k for a private company who said more than half was paid back in tax.

I think my religious upbringing (though I stopped believing) makes it impossible for me to judge anybody too harshly.

I know somebody who pretty much fits what you mean, but I don't know what he gives to charities etc...

In reply to Timmd:

It's a fact that a large majority of HMRC tax revenue is derived from a small percentage of victims.

In reply to Dave Cumberland:


Describing tax payers as victims seems a little odd. How else would you like essential services - the NHS, education, road infrastructure, the Armed Forces, pension - to be funded?

In reply to tony:
With a flat tax rate 10% across the board, efficient, simple, raises more money more fairly, and a lower cut off so it is profitable to work and low earners are kept out of tax.
Entrepreneurs, wealth-creators, job creators must not be fleeced.
DC

In reply to Dave Cumberland:


Is it orange as well?

In reply to The Lemming:

I'd rather be a champagne socialist than " a long drink of water" socialist (to use Whillans' term) cf Corbyn.

In reply to Dave Cumberland:

Countries with a 10% flat rate tax include Andorra, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Mongolia, Transnistria and Turkmenistan. Interesting company to choose.

Still, we've had Brexiteers enthusing over the fortunes of Albania and Greenland, so the above list seems in keeping with those ambitions.

In reply to Dave Cumberland:

Being a lefty Liberal he was pretty happy with paying more than half of his 150k in tax, through being comfortable on a little bit under 75k, and seeing the rest as going towards helping those who need the help and paying for essential services, he saw it as fair enough.

A generous character I guess...

In reply to Father Noel Furlong:


Oh God! Does that mean it's David Dickinson?

In reply to tony:

I have heard if you paid 10-15% tax on all income we'd end up with a higher net amount of collected tax, I'd be interested if there was anyone who is sufficiently knowledgable to confirm this (rather than the usual set of half baked opinions that do the rounds on here).

In reply to Dave Cumberland:

Well that nails your colours to the mast. Low regressive flat rate tax. Genius. I assume that 10% is costed, not just made up to sound superficially appealing.
Jk

In reply to The Lemming:

Poisoned chalices all round for our politicians

1. Farage and UKIP no relevance anymore . He's done the damage but perhaps he's the biggest turkey, they were always a one trick pony- watch them disappear. Only problem is who will capture their votes. They remind me of 'Spitting Image' when Majors government won an unlikely victory over Labour. They were sitting in a wrecked cabinet room when somebody came in and announced they'd won " What do you mean we've won we've just trashed the place".

2. David Cameron - he's on his way back to enjoy his millions. He will be judged on making one of the worst decisions for a ruling party. I dont think their will ever be another referendum again for a long time if ever, no government is ever going to take the risk.

3. Osbourne - he suddenly appeared after a notable absence to "try and steady the markets" but the markets hate uncertainty- the pound falls. the FTSE falls, some jobs will drift to the EU. He has no control over most of this. Lame duck chancellor who should have had a Plan B in case of Brexit but hasn't.

4. Corbyn - should do a Tory thing and fall on his sword. Ineffectual in opposition and also in support of Remain. He is damaging the party and should do the decent thing and resign before he is forced to go. Problem is the Labour Leader selection process is flawed, they would be better following the Tory model.

5.Johnson and Gove. I think these two can be lumped together. By the time these two are in a Tory leadership battle some of their Brexit claims will be looking a bit sad. Johnson will ride it out as he's got all the charms of a maverick as for Gove he has stabbed Cameron in the back he wont be forgiven by the Tory Remain faithful.

6. Theresa May- she's got one of the best chances although she supported Remain she also said we should withdraw from The European Court of Human Rights so she might get support from Tory Brexiters.

In reply to tony:



I think Russia has a flat 13% tax rate. We are becoming more like Russia every day so I suppose why not copy their tax regime.

In reply to Removed Userjess13:

I hope, and I'm willing to concede there's a fair amount of wishful thinking in this, that Johnson, as the charismatic figurehead of Leave will attract the well-deserved loathing of the remainers, shortly followed, as the lies and the full effects of his mendacity become clear, by the well-deserved loathing of a substantial proportion of betrayed leavers.

In reply to cander:


The way I see it is, this coup was inevitable from the day he won the election. He was never popular with the PLP and now is the time of the long knives. However he did win a mandate that other Labour leaders could have only dreamed of, and the Old Guard are showing their displeasure.
With luck he will survive and bring about a different kind politics. Hopefully a more collegiate form of government. Which is what we are going to need in the negotiations to come, rather than the Punch and Judy show of current politics.

In reply to Mark Edwards:

Yeah I know the type of politics you mean, like Foot, all very socialist but completely unelectable. Good luck with that.

In reply to cander:


The thing is the Blairite politics dont seem an overly good option either. You noticed all those pissed off former labour voters being talked about? The aim for the swing voters (note that is not necessarily the centre ground) approach only works for so long. After a while people notice that their votes are being taken for granted and go elsewhere.

Particularly if they have some political dynasty protegee parachuted into their constituency.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

If you can get the SNP to find some candidates for England...

In reply to Mark Edwards:

Corbyn would make an excellent parish councillor. Principled mild of manner honest and reasonable almost to a fault dare I say.

In reply to cander:


In theory, yes. GDP, all income in the UK (exlcuding from abroad), is over £1.5 trillion. Income tax take is about £0.15 trillion - so less than or around 10% of total income. In practice, they couldn't tax it all unless they abolish cash. Plus if they could, it would be a big tax rise for people that can't afford it and a big tax cut for people that can. Basically it's a libertarian fantasy.

In reply to cander:


Sorry, not sure what you mean AKA Foot. I have never been particularly interested in politics. I have seen way too much of what politics can do to real living people, to ever want to be a part of it. I never wanted to vote. But in the recent years the local council has decided that I will appear on the electoral register, whether I want it or not. It came as a surprise to me that I had a voter registration form. So, as this wasn’t the regular Punch and Judy election garbage I made my choice and voted accordingly.

Cameron and the like, easy to read, in it for themselves and/or their compatriots. Corbyn now I recon he needs watching. He hasn’t shown anything yet, and that makes me cautious (perhaps he will dribble out like a damp squib, or perhaps he won’t. Time will tell).

To me it’s like the philosophy I have adopted, walk softly, talk quietly, and carry a big (metaphorical) stick.

In reply to Removed Userjess13:

>Lame duck chancellor who should have had a Plan B in case of Brexit but hasn't.

I don't think that's fair at all. WTF would you expect him to do??

jcm

In reply to Donald82:

The people who advocate flat taxes are so dumb they can't see that they would be handing back an enormous amount of tax to the rich - the champagne socialists - they so despise.

In reply to The Lemming:

Where was Boris today? Rumour has it he was playing golf and dodging Westminster. Nero played the fiddle(while Rome burned) - Boris went and played golf!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Phone Cameron and yell some abuse at him for cocking things up. Then, depending on the leadership election, probably walk away from the entire mess.

In reply to The Watch of Barrisdale:


Bit unfair on Nero there. By all accurate accounts he actually did a lot after the fire. of course he was also accused of setting the fire so he could rebuild the place but at least he didnt just engage in the destructive part.
Good to see Boris is still favourite for tory leader. That is after his grand masterplan appears to be to keep everything the same aside from getting rid of the legal framework. I am not sure he has explained how that is going to work though.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:




I agree. I'm not a massive Osborne fan but it seems to me he had done what he could, which, in this situation, was never likely to be enough.

And, of course, he campaigned vigorously for Remain and warned loud and clear what the financial effects of Brexit would be - and was widely criticised for scare-mongering. Now he's said that he'll remain in post to try to stabilise the situation but doesn't want to be leader because he thinks he would be too divisive. All sounds pretty reasonable to me.

In reply to KevinD:

Apologies to Nero!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Chancellors and England Football Managers should always have a Plan B. The MD of JP Morgan said over a week ago that they had a Plan B because he had to answer to his shareholders in case of Brexit as I suspect many multinational companies here have also. Osbourne as 2nd in command is by association with Cameron nearly as culpable in this fiasco - sorry no sympathy.

In reply to Dave Garnett: I agree with you re. Osbourne. I am no fan, but at this point in time he is the only person outside Scotalns who has stood up and actually done anything. It might not seem terribly effective, but it is what it is and he is a slave of circumstance.

David Cameron is an ass for putting this on the manifesto because he cant control his loony wing. I note BoJo has been pretty low profile today, again. I think he is done for - his support base is furious with him for risking screwing over the city, and their wealth for his self promotion. We can make a nice book - where's Bojo? - and have hime hiding in funny places

The problem with all the back pedalling going on (hello fishermen!!!) is that you won't have seen the end of Farage, not by a long way. No compromise! Traitors! If you think they can bunk out of this , no way. Do that and Farage and UKIPs squealing will guarantee a whole bunch of UKIP mp's next time round People won't forget.

Oh yes Corbyn. All this going on and he's the centre of attention , and totally unelectable. He might walk and talk quietly, but he doesn't have a big stick, not unless Seamus Milne tells him to get one. An effective opposition is sore missed.

In reply to John Stainforth:




So a bit like on here then but the other way round

In reply to cander:


I'm not sure he's that intelligent!

In reply to pec:

At least this is virtual (ish)

In reply to The Lemming:



sometimes to much democracy is a bad thing. this country certainly has plenty of it, not saying thats bad, house of commons debates are far more interesting and lively than what ive seen in other countries.
but maybe sometimes a government is elected in order to make complex decisions rather than handing them over to 'the people'.