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UK's zombie membership of the EU

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 Coel Hellier 28 Jun 2016
EU: Hurry up and trigger Article 50 please.

Boris: What's the deal after that?

EU: We'll have you shot as deserters, we'll be as nasty as possible pour encourager les autres.

Boris: Doesn't sound attractive; can we have a better deal please?

EU: Nope, and hurry up and trigger Article 50 please.

Boris: Not until you offer us a better deal.

EU: Won't! And hurry up and trigger Article 50 please.

Boris: Shan't!

EU: But this uncertainty is bad for all of us.

Boris: Then offer us a better deal if you don't like the uncertainty.

EU: Not a chance. Just get on with A50, ok?

Boris: After we've agreed an acceptable deal.

EU: Nope, now.

Boris: I can stall as much as you!

So how long might Britain's zombie membership then last? As long as the next election, after which the "democratic mandate" is reset?

After all, the powers that be in Europe have a track record of ignoring referendum outcomes that they don't like.
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 Mike Stretford 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Coel Hellier: The next Tory party leader and PM will be appointed in 10 weeks (?). The new PM would then have the choice to invoke Article 50 or hold a general election. If the new PM does not invoke Article 50 after that, or state they will not with their reasoning, we (the UK) starts to look very silly.

 john arran 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Coel Hellier:

It's up to the UK to make any moves towards the door. Uncertainty of what will happen next is one of the reasons it was so stupid to hold a referendum in the first place, as people were being asked to choose between a flawed but workable status quo and, er ... something else.
 Ramblin dave 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Mike Stretford:

> If the new PM does not invoke Article 50 after that, or state they will not with their reasoning, we (the UK) starts to look very silly.

I think we started to look very silly some time ago, to be honest.

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OP Coel Hellier 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Mike Stretford:

> The new PM would then have the choice to invoke Article 50 or hold a general election.

Or of not invoking Article 50 and not holding a general election.
 wbo 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Coel Hellier:
Serious q - can the UK still block anything?

There has recently been a problem with closure of the U.K. Steel industry , particularly port Talbot, as the Chinese are dumping low cost steel. The EU could block this dumping, but couldn't as Westminster applied a veto ( over enthusiasm for free market).

As the UK is no longer participating, can the EU now move to block dumped steel, saving plucky British steel workers from the dole?

(Of course, balls this up and Wales could find itself on the wrong side)
OP Coel Hellier 28 Jun 2016
In reply to wbo:

> As the UK is no longer participating, can ...

As of right now, the UK is a full member of the EU.

All that has happened is that there has been an *advisory* referendum. Effectively the government have arranged a glorified opinion poll.
 deepsoup 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Mike Stretford:
Start to look very silly!?!
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 Bootrock 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Coel Hellier:

UK: Can we have a reform please?

EU: No.

UK: Any chance of a reform?

EU: No.

UK: We aren't happy, any chance of a reform?

EU: haha, No, what do you think this is? Democracy?

UK: We aren't happy, and neither are a few others, any chance you can consider a reform?

EU: No.

UK: Right, we might have a referendum on the EU, because we don't get listened to and there's no reform.

EU: No reforms.

UK: Right here's the date of our referendum, still no Reform?
Sweden: Yea, we wouldn't mind a referendum too.
Greece: Yea me too.
Italy: Yea same.
Germany: Some of our people are grumbling too.

EU: No reform.

UK: We held a referendum and the people don't want this anymore.

EU: FINE F*CK OFF THEN.

UK: Lets be civil about this.

EU: NO. It's my train set and no one else is allowed to play with it.

8
Removed User 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Mike Stretford:

> we (the UK) starts to look very silly.

Even more than "we" already do?
1
KevinD 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Coel Hellier:

> After all, the powers that be in Europe have a track record of ignoring referendum outcomes that they don't like.

The powers that be in Europe dont seem to be holding things up.
The fact that the outers in charge actually want to keep near enough everything is likely to be a problem though.
Boris doesnt seem to have grasped it isnt a pick and mix selection.
 Jon Stewart 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Coel Hellier:

Boris: We shall remain in the common market but be exempt from free movement

Angela: No you won't

Who do you believe? Anyone who votes for Boris as PM now is, quite simply, an idiot.

So I don't think things will progress quite as you say. Boris can't lead as he can't deliver on his promise. Someone else is going to be in charge, and in or out of the EU, we will be in the common market with free movement.
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 Mike Stretford 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Coel Hellier:

> Or of not invoking Article 50 and not holding a general election.

That isn't a credible option, we had a referendum on invoking Atricle 50, after re-negotiations had taken place earlier in the year. The new PM would need some kind of mandate for not doing so.
 Tyler 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

> Greece: Yea me too.

You think? The Greek govt pretty much had a mandate to quit from the electorate, they had pretty genuine grievances with EU and being borderline bankrupt had nothing to lose and yet their rulers still thought it a good idea to stay. If you think the richer countries like Germany are going to quit the EU then you've been listening to too much Farage

1
 Mike Stretford 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Ramblin dave:

> I think we started to look very silly some time ago, to be honest.

Ok, what about Hilariously very silly (HVS), then there's Extremley Silly with it's numbered system....


E4?

http://i.imgur.com/CFmbjDY.jpg
 Roadrunner5 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Coel Hellier:
> As of right now, the UK is a full member of the EU.

> All that has happened is that there has been an *advisory* referendum. Effectively the government have arranged a glorified opinion poll.

I don't think many realise nothing has changed as of yet, Just uncertainty.

It's why ukips bragging that nothing bad has happened yet is pretty ridiculous, nothing will really change other than markets, investments, and future plans, but the bigger stuff, good or bad, won't happen until article 50 is invoked and we have more concrete plans, at the moment it's just a wish list.
Post edited at 14:57
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 balmybaldwin 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Coel Hellier:

I see Farage has added fuel to the fire again. How has it been that he's been elected as an EU rep for 17 years and we've allowed him to speak for the UK in the way he does in the EU parliament. The way he attacked junker last year was a disgrace and he's doing it again. Just because he wants to leave the EU does not give him the right to be so rude to our friends and allies.
OP Coel Hellier 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Boris can't lead as he can't deliver on his promise.

Under Tory party rules, the next PM is decided by a ballot of Tory party members selecting from two candidates selected by the MPs. Given Boris's popularity with Tory party members, if he is one of those two he is likely to win. Tory party members are vastly more Eurosceptic than even Tory party MPs.

In reply to Mike Stretford:

> That isn't a credible option, we had a referendum on invoking Atricle 50, after re-negotiations had taken place earlier in the year.

See my OP for why the next PM might not trigger A50. It seems to me entirely credible that it doesn't happen this year or perhaps ever.
 Jon Stewart 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Coel Hellier:
> Under Tory party rules, the next PM is decided by a ballot of Tory party members selecting from two candidates selected by the MPs. Given Boris's popularity with Tory party members, if he is one of those two he is likely to win. Tory party members are vastly more Eurosceptic than even Tory party MPs.

People say different things about Boris' popularity in the Tory party, I wonder if anyone has any reliable information? If I were a Tory, I would see Boris' election as a catastrophe for the party for the reason given above. I'm not even convinced Boris *is* really Eurosceptic, he wants to be in the single market and he's in the process of having everything he said during the campaign unravelled in front what will be a very angry mob.

As I said, you'd have to be an idiot to vote for Boris. So it will be fascinating, and potentially hilarious, to watch this unfold.

> See my OP for why the next PM might not trigger A50. It seems to me entirely credible that it doesn't happen this year or perhaps ever.

Indeed, which is why it can't be Boris. Theresa May could say, "look, I'd love to leave the EU too, and one day, at the right time, we will; but I'm afraid it's just not practical now which is why I quietly voted to remain. I am a sensible, credible person, and you lot are sorry for your foolishness. So let's get on with life and forget this whole sorry incident ever happened." Not easy, but without an opposition, quite possible?
Post edited at 15:21
 Mike Stretford 28 Jun 2016

> In reply to Mike Stretford:

> See my OP for why the next PM might not trigger A50. It seems to me entirely credible that it doesn't happen this year or perhaps ever.

I did, it's just more silliness. We didn't have a referendum on more negotiation with the EU then article 50, we had a referendum on invoking article 50.

If Boris was gambling on the former (as he stated earlier in his campaign), then it looks like he's lost.

In reply to your comment on the other thread about me wanting to say "I told you so", no that isn't it. If I'm wrong and this all works out well, I will very happily put my hands up and admit you were right. I'd rather be better of financially than win an argument on the internet!

Truth is, we don't know where we are yet. The referendum has not been acted upon, and as you say it is possible it never will be.
 Mr Lopez 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

UK: Hi guys. You know, i've been thinking about our little club. How about I take all the benefitial bits from our agreements, but i don't take any of the obligations that come with it? Also, i'd like to play with your toys but you guys are not allowed to play with mine.

Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden: Are you on drugs? Sorry mate, can't do.

UK:Well, i'd like you to reconsider. I am special, don't you know? I had an empire nearly a century ago, and i won the football World Cup like 50 years ago. Also i'm the only one here who can do a bitching morris dancing routine. Can i get get what i want? Pretty please?

Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden: Nope. We are a club and everyone in it has the same benefits and obligations, we can't have people getting preferential treatment.

UK: Whaaaaaattttt??? But i want to be treated special...

Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden: We are sorry, but the basis of our club is that we are all the same and no one is special.

UK: But, but, I will leave if i don't have my way....

Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden: You know UK, we do like having you in the club, but if you want to leave it really is up to you.

UK: Ok, i will leave then. Can i have what i'm asking for?

Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden: Nope

UK: I'm leaving... Look, i'm calling a referendum. Can i have it please?
Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden: Nope, sorry. As we said, either you are in the club or you are not.

UK: Ok, i'm leaving then.

Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden: Well. Farewell then.

UK: Wait, what? Are you not going to stop me?

Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden: No, if you want to leave then it is for you to do so.

UK: So if i leave, can i still play with some of your toys sometimes?

Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden: Nope.

UK: Ok, f*ck off then. I don't like your toys anyway.

Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden: Bon voyage then, UK.











UK: Can i at least borrow the Thomas the Tank Engine?

Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden: If we can borrow your Barbie doll maybe we can do a deal.

UK: NO! Absolutely not! The Barbie doll is mine. MINE! You hear me?

Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden: Uh ok. Enjoy your dolls then, but say good bye to Thomas..









Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden: You still here?

UK: Yeeeessss...

Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden: I thought you were leaving?

UK: Yeeeessss... Buuuuttt...

Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden: But what?

UK: If you treat me like someone special i don't have to leave?

Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden: Piss off

UK: Oh, you are mean.

Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden: Au revoir

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OP Coel Hellier 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Mike Stretford:

> We didn't have a referendum on more negotiation with the EU then article 50, we had a referendum on invoking article 50.

So why would the next PM trigger A50 before knowing the outline deal they would get from the EU? What would they gain from triggering it before that?
OP Coel Hellier 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Mr Lopez:
> How about I take all the benefitial bits from our agreements, but i don't take any of the obligations that come with it?

Now, I wonder. Is free-movement a "benefit" to EU countries? If it is a "benefit", then, no, the UK is *not* asking for "all the beneficial bits". If it *not* a benefit, then why do EU countries adopt it?

> Also, i'd like to play with your toys but you guys are not allowed to play with mine.

What the UK is asking for is: we can sell in your markets, you can sell in ours. Fair, no?
Post edited at 15:27
 Mike Stretford 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Coel Hellier:
> So why would the next PM trigger A50 before knowing the outline deal they would get from the EU? What would they gain from triggering it before that?

You are right, it would put them under pressure of negotiating a deal in 2 years, knowing the EU has the better hand.

So Remain it is. I just think it's going to be a hard sell to the public.
Post edited at 15:28
OP Coel Hellier 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Mike Stretford:

> I just think it's going to be a hard sell the public.

Well, 48% of people will like it, for starters.
 gribble 28 Jun 2016

As I understand it (and I am by no means clever), before Article 50 can be triggered the 1972 European Communities Act has to be repealed. This can only be done the MPs in th house of commons, as it is still a sovereign decision. So, just thinking aloud, if a majority of MPs vote against repealing the Act, then Article 50 (and leaving the EU) is dead in the water. Maybe it might be a good time to write to your MP expressing your views about repealing said Act? The referendum was advisory, not legally binding. The Act is legally binding.
 Ramblin dave 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Coel Hellier:

> Well, 48% of people will like it, for starters.

I saw an interesting stat that if no-one changed their mind and if the breakdowns by age were about accurate, then within two years - ie before we actually got out even if we invoked article 50 tomorrow - we'd be back to a majority wanting remain purely based on the number of "remain" voters turning 18 versus "leave" voters popping their clogs.
 Jon Stewart 28 Jun 2016
In reply to gribble:

Yup, referendum advisory, parliament in charge. Plus, Scotland reckon they can block it too. End result: shit idea, not going to happen, we all look like dicks in front of the entire planet, and a few racists get annoyed. Great!
1
 Sir Chasm 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Yes, except for the companies that decide not to invest in their plants in the UK because of continued uncertainty about unfettered access to the eu market.
 gribble 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Not a lot different to today then!
cb294 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Coel Hellier:

> What the UK is asking for is: we can sell in your markets, you can sell in ours. Fair, no?

No, not fair, at least in this simplified representation. Yes, mutual free trade will happen, as it is largely covered by WTO rules anyway, but this is not (or not only) what the common market is about, as you very well know. Also, if it were not, why would WTO style free trade not be enough for the UK government?.

Access to this market comes at a price, and that is sharing the burdens of the EU. This holds true both for member states and for non members negotiating single market access, hence the contributions to the EU budget by economically strong EEA countries like Norway or Switzerland. The EU cannot and will not grant the UK special conditions, and the UK can probably forget about Maggie´s rebate when the contributions are recalculated during the potential negotiations of readmission to the EEA.

In addition, there are other conditions sine qua non, which the Leave side could have (and at least their leaders will have) known about in advance. Specifically, free exchange of services, capital, and goods is in the EU strictly coupled to free movement of workers. Note that this applies to labour, not EU internal migration into benefit systems. The latter is/was a problem for countries like Germany and Sweden as well, but not one that could not in principle be dealt with under EU rules. Again, any country trying to benefit from the single market will have to adhere to these principles, why should there be an exception for the UK should they decide to leave the EU and reenter the common market?

CB
1
OP Coel Hellier 28 Jun 2016
In reply to cb294:

> The EU cannot and will not grant the UK special conditions, ...

"Will not", granted, but "cannot" is not really true.

But I don't get this idea that there must be a fee for access to a market. If we're expected to pay a fee for access to the EU market, then why wouldn't they pay a fee for access to our market?

Just because they have a stronger negotiating position, or is there some real reason?

The NAFTA countries don't pay fees for market access, and nor do they have free movement of people. Yet people seem to be treating these things as necessary parts of a free market (as oppose to being things that the EU might desire).
 colinakmc 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Coel Hellier:

Try this as a view of "how ithers see us":

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/28/brexit-great-news-eu-...

Seems quite truthful as to how successive HMG's have behaved towards Europe. Also summarises very well what the democratic deficit is, but suggests that other member states want to address that and have been blocked by UKG? Any takers for that?

Does suggest that UK membership was on a shaky nail anyway due to bad attitude.
cb294 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Coel Hellier:

Also your first post contains a subtle misrepresentation. It is not the EU that ignores referenda, it is the individual governments that ask for a rerun (or put a parliamentary decision above the referendum outcome), usually with some concessions made by their EU partners to make it easier to convince their voters. Denmark, Greece, or Ireland could just have called a day on their EU membership, but decided not to. Complaining that there is some political arms twisting (e.g. in the Irish case) would be naive, that is constant background in all political processes.

CB
1
 colinakmc 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Coel Hellier:

> So why would the next PM trigger A50 before knowing the outline deal they would get from the EU? What would they gain from triggering it before that?

As far as I can see triggering Article 50 puts the power squarely with the other EU countries, all 27 of them, to TELL us what we can have. So it's basically Russian roulette with our economy. Funny the leave campaign never mentioned that.....
 SenzuBean 28 Jun 2016
In reply to colinakmc:

From your link in the comments:

"i am one of the 48% who wanted to remain

i wanted to write an eloquent post saying how i feel that a 3.98% majority on a referendum based on untruths cannot possibly be properly democratic

but f*ck it, i am too upset"
cb294 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Coel Hellier:

> "Will not", granted, but "cannot" is not really true.

"Cannot" reflects the political necessity, as it would set a dangerous (for EU stability) precedence.

"Will not" reflects the disappointment of many EU governments over the fact all the exceptions the UK enjoyed while within the EU never seemed to be enough. Once you are out, that would probably lead to hardened negotiation stances.

> But I don't get this idea that there must be a fee for access to a market. If we're expected to pay a fee for access to the EU market, then why wouldn't they pay a fee for access to our market?

Of course, everything would be mutual. However, the UK as a powerful economy would be a net contributor whether in or out (under a Norway type deal).

> Just because they have a stronger negotiating position, or is there some real reason?

I guess that the majority of EU countries would still prefer the pre referendum status quo, as a UK exit weakens the whole EU especially in relation to the US and China.

> The NAFTA countries don't pay fees for market access, and nor do they have free movement of people. Yet people seem to be treating these things as necessary parts of a free market (as oppose to being things that the EU might desire).

That is exactly the point, the EU common market is not like NAFTA. It is, by agreement of all members including the UK, much more integrated. A pure free trade agreement is not and was not on offer at least since the 1970s.

If the UK are not happy with this, they are free to leave. However, if the EU does not accept NAFTA-like deals (which I am sure the Swiss would have loved) then it is EEA (including all the contributions and commitments), or baseline WTO conditions. Your choice, really.

CB

OP Coel Hellier 28 Jun 2016
In reply to cb294:

> "Cannot" reflects the political necessity, as it would set a dangerous (for EU stability) precedence.

So the fact that the EU will not offer us a straightforward and fair NAFTA-like deal -- you trade with us, we'll trade with you -- is purely down to the fact that other EU nations might want that deal also for themselves.
 RomTheBear 28 Jun 2016
In reply to colinakmc:

> As far as I can see triggering Article 50 puts the power squarely with the other EU countries, all 27 of them, to TELL us what we can have. So it's basically Russian roulette with our economy. Funny the leave campaign never mentioned that.....


Worse than that actually, article 50 requires only conditions of exit to be negotiated, there isn't any requirement for any future relationship to be negotiated.
cb294 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Coel Hellier:

No, it is that the European states (including the UK) decided that the EU should be more than a pure free market. This includes financial responsibilities of the larger economies towards the smaller and poorer countries. If you look how much standard of living has improved in countries like Ireland, Portugal, Greece, southern Italy, Spain from postwar to pre financial crisis you may accept that this was generally seen as a good thing, even in the net contributing countries, and has led to unprecedented stability and overall prosperity.

Similarly, the principle that in the European common market workers should enjoy the same mobility as goods, investments, and services has a very good reason: Under Nafta, many American manufacturers moved to Mexico, leaving their former workers unemployed, while large US agrobusinesses bought up farmland in Mexico, depriving local farmers of their livelihood. The EU common market rules to an extent ensure that this did not happen (relocations of some car and mobile phone manufacturers from Germany to e.g. Romania nonwithstanding).

No country will be granted the good bits (mutual market access) alone without subjecting itself to the rules as well as sharing the financial burden. In fact, the UK while inside the EU enjoys many exceptions (rebate, no Euro, no social charter, no Schengen, ..) that I predict would disappear in part when reapplying for market access post Brexit (i.e. contributions without rebate, and no concessions on worker mobility).

CB
1
OP Coel Hellier 28 Jun 2016
In reply to cb294:

> No, it is that the European states (including the UK) decided that the EU should be more than a pure free market.

Fine, so the EU is more than a free market.

Now, why can't the EU do a simple free-trade deal with an non-EU country? We trade with you; you trade with us; we don't pay a fee for access to our market; you don't pay a free for access to ours.

You can bet that when/if the trade deal between the EU and the US comes off, the US will not be paying for the privilege.

> No country will be granted the good bits (mutual market access) alone without subjecting itself to the rules

Not even the US? So the US is going to have to subject itself to all the EU rules and pay for the privilege otherwise the EU will refuse to sign TTIP?
 MG 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Coel Hellier:

There is no certainty TTIP will be signed

It has taken years (decades?) to nearly agree

It is far from comprehensive

We could game in the EU agreeing something similar with us in a few decades....

....or we could accept EUlite
KevinD 28 Jun 2016
In reply to Coel Hellier:

> Not even the US? So the US is going to have to subject itself to all the EU rules and pay for the privilege otherwise the EU will refuse to sign TTIP?

TTIP comes with a whole bunch of rules and regulations. Surprised this is the first you have heard of them since some have been rather controversial.
I think the EU is going to refuse to sign it though since several governments think those rules and regulations arent in Europe's interest.
OP Coel Hellier 28 Jun 2016
In reply to KevinD:

> TTIP comes with a whole bunch of rules and regulations. Surprised this is the first you have heard of them since some have been rather controversial.

I am well aware of them. I was using it as an example to make a point.

Does anyone think that such a deal would be one-sided, such that the Americans would have to pay the Europeans a fee for access to the European market, but the Europeans would pay no such fee for access to the American market?

If no, why would a one-sided fee be fair for any other country?


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