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Yesterday we packed up the car before work with Trad gear, but the weather was worse than forecast and we decided Trad was too dodgy and we would go climb sports on Sandstone instead. Anyhow instead of heading home to get the single rope we stuck with the half ropes that were in the car.
Anyhow, it didn't turn out too bad after all climbing sports on half ropes. I'm not saying I'd do it by choice but if you mainly climb Trad maybe you don't always need a single rope...
Good points:
- You could clip just one rope at once if you were unstable, meaning if you fall you still have the other rope tight and don't take such a big fall.
- More friction when hanging around on clips, so easier for the belayer to hold.
- Less rope stretch so we took smaller falls.
- When switching lead or top roping you can clip one rope to each bolt for redundancy.
Bad points:
- More rope drag
- A bit heavier
- A bit harder to clip both ropes at once
- Two ropes to tie into
- Two ropes to re-tie at the top (although where we were climbing had two top out clips so this wasn't required).
- Only 50m of rope
Anyhow, it didn't turn out too bad after all climbing sports on half ropes. I'm not saying I'd do it by choice but if you mainly climb Trad maybe you don't always need a single rope...
Good points:
- You could clip just one rope at once if you were unstable, meaning if you fall you still have the other rope tight and don't take such a big fall.
- More friction when hanging around on clips, so easier for the belayer to hold.
- Less rope stretch so we took smaller falls.
- When switching lead or top roping you can clip one rope to each bolt for redundancy.
Bad points:
- More rope drag
- A bit heavier
- A bit harder to clip both ropes at once
- Two ropes to tie into
- Two ropes to re-tie at the top (although where we were climbing had two top out clips so this wasn't required).
- Only 50m of rope
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In reply to springfall2008:
Its not that unusual for even fully bolted routes in Europe to require half ropes as there are no intermediate belays and the belays are 50 - 60 metres apart.
Its not that unusual for even fully bolted routes in Europe to require half ropes as there are no intermediate belays and the belays are 50 - 60 metres apart.
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In reply to springfall2008:
Just clip one rope at the top and that removes your penultimate bad point.
Just clip one rope at the top and that removes your penultimate bad point.
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In reply to springfall2008:
Some revisions after others comments:
Good points:
- You could clip just one rope at once if you were unstable, meaning if you fall you still have the other rope tight and don't take such a big fall.
- More friction when hanging around on clips, so easier for the belayer to hold.
- Less rope stretch so we took smaller falls.
- When switching lead or top roping you can clip one rope to each bolt for redundancy.
- You can just re-tie one rope at the top for lower off while keeping the other attached - no risk of being off the rope.
- If your rope is too short to lower off you can abseil off instead.
Bad points:
- More rope drag
- A bit heavier
- A bit harder to clip both ropes at once
- Two ropes to tie into
- Generally people only have 50m-60m of half rope - sports often 70m
Some revisions after others comments:
Good points:
- You could clip just one rope at once if you were unstable, meaning if you fall you still have the other rope tight and don't take such a big fall.
- More friction when hanging around on clips, so easier for the belayer to hold.
- Less rope stretch so we took smaller falls.
- When switching lead or top roping you can clip one rope to each bolt for redundancy.
- You can just re-tie one rope at the top for lower off while keeping the other attached - no risk of being off the rope.
- If your rope is too short to lower off you can abseil off instead.
Bad points:
- More rope drag
- A bit heavier
- A bit harder to clip both ropes at once
- Two ropes to tie into
- Generally people only have 50m-60m of half rope - sports often 70m
In reply to springfall2008:
You could clip alternatively, ofcourse then you'd fall further on stretch but a softer catch - which is normally better for sport
The pitches aren't 70 metres though so you have enough rope, but abseiling to get the gear could well be a fair amount more hassle on over hanging routes.
> - A bit harder to clip both ropes at once
You could clip alternatively, ofcourse then you'd fall further on stretch but a softer catch - which is normally better for sport
> - Generally people only have 50m-60m of half rope - sports often 70m
The pitches aren't 70 metres though so you have enough rope, but abseiling to get the gear could well be a fair amount more hassle on over hanging routes.
In reply to springfall2008:
There's an issue with your first point that's worth bearing in mind. If you clip both ropes together and then later clip only one and fall on it, the weighted rope will come tight in a great hurry and in doing so it will rub against the other rope, which will be stationary. It won't be for more than a fraction of a second but there's a high chance of a lot of heat being generated in that short time. As a very occasional thing this is probably not going to cause problems in practice but if you do end up falling in such a circumstance it will be worth doing a thorough inspection of the non-weighted rope to make sure it hasn't gained any points where the sheath has partially melted. Even if there's no obvious damage I would expect the sheath of the rope to wear faster if you make a habit of doing that.
There's an issue with your first point that's worth bearing in mind. If you clip both ropes together and then later clip only one and fall on it, the weighted rope will come tight in a great hurry and in doing so it will rub against the other rope, which will be stationary. It won't be for more than a fraction of a second but there's a high chance of a lot of heat being generated in that short time. As a very occasional thing this is probably not going to cause problems in practice but if you do end up falling in such a circumstance it will be worth doing a thorough inspection of the non-weighted rope to make sure it hasn't gained any points where the sheath has partially melted. Even if there's no obvious damage I would expect the sheath of the rope to wear faster if you make a habit of doing that.
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In reply to springfall2008:
Or you could just use a grigri on your single rope...
> - More friction when hanging around on clips, so easier for the belayer to hold.
Or you could just use a grigri on your single rope...
In reply to zimpara:
*lol*
Indeed you could use a gri-gri, and I guess if I did a lot of sports routes I might even buy one. I'm certainly not lugging one on a trad climb
> He doesn't believe in grigris.
*lol*
Indeed you could use a gri-gri, and I guess if I did a lot of sports routes I might even buy one. I'm certainly not lugging one on a trad climb
In reply to john arran:
Yeh fair point, most likely it won't even happen again for another year until we make the same mistake and misjudge the weather. I thought the thread is interesting for others who might find themselves in the same situation....
Yeh fair point, most likely it won't even happen again for another year until we make the same mistake and misjudge the weather. I thought the thread is interesting for others who might find themselves in the same situation....
In reply to springfall2008:
You could always just use one rope as long as you're taking loads of falls. Using single half ropes was occasionally used for hard redpoints to reduce weight (before the modern lighter single ropes became available). After all often when trad climbing only one of those ropes may be clipped into a piece high enough to protect you.
You could always just use one rope as long as you're taking loads of falls. Using single half ropes was occasionally used for hard redpoints to reduce weight (before the modern lighter single ropes became available). After all often when trad climbing only one of those ropes may be clipped into a piece high enough to protect you.
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In reply to stp:
It's my belief of landing on only one halfrope in the event of a fall in most cases. So don't see the reason not to use only one. Apart from being harder to hold a whipper for the belayer. Basically don't fall off and climb on what you like
It's my belief of landing on only one halfrope in the event of a fall in most cases. So don't see the reason not to use only one. Apart from being harder to hold a whipper for the belayer. Basically don't fall off and climb on what you like
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In reply to springfall2008:
I did this a few years ago at Inverness wall (for similar reasons as yours) and got ticked off by someone who claimed to be officially affiliated to the wall - his claim being that if you fell the ropes would rub against each other and risk melting. He said we must clip alternative bolts, ala normal double rope leading. Was news to us as we were under the impression twin ropes technique is fairly common in some areas if the world. We kept him happy by humoring him then carried on regardless once he bogged off.
I did this a few years ago at Inverness wall (for similar reasons as yours) and got ticked off by someone who claimed to be officially affiliated to the wall - his claim being that if you fell the ropes would rub against each other and risk melting. He said we must clip alternative bolts, ala normal double rope leading. Was news to us as we were under the impression twin ropes technique is fairly common in some areas if the world. We kept him happy by humoring him then carried on regardless once he bogged off.
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In reply to Helen Bach:
Hold on a minute, if you clip both bolts together then the rope runs together as a pair. If you clip alternate bolts then surely when you fall one rope will run and the other won't??
Hold on a minute, if you clip both bolts together then the rope runs together as a pair. If you clip alternate bolts then surely when you fall one rope will run and the other won't??
In reply to Helen Bach:
I'm not 100% convinced that ropes rubbing together was the main reason in the past, because as you say twin rope technique is common in the rest of Europe so it would seem odd for a manufacturer to recommend this. One reason was, I believe, that two ropes passing through a krab, especially 9mm's, which were common, put additional strain on the krab because of the width of the two ropes side by side and the loads on that krab were also excessive because there was less stretch in the system. Both seem valid but perhaps someone with more real knowledge will come along but this was my understanding.
Al
I'm not 100% convinced that ropes rubbing together was the main reason in the past, because as you say twin rope technique is common in the rest of Europe so it would seem odd for a manufacturer to recommend this. One reason was, I believe, that two ropes passing through a krab, especially 9mm's, which were common, put additional strain on the krab because of the width of the two ropes side by side and the loads on that krab were also excessive because there was less stretch in the system. Both seem valid but perhaps someone with more real knowledge will come along but this was my understanding.
Al
Post edited at 13:41
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In reply to GridNorth:
My take on it is that your answer is correct, Grid.
If using two ropes don't mix twin and half rope techniques.
Only use ropes as they are rated.
When in the trade, I regularly asked karabiner manufacturers how their krabs fared with two ropes clipped. Never got a straight answer. Climbing on the continent, most folk using twin rope technique always appeared to be using chunky krabs. I would suggest that most lightweight krabs are best used with one rope.
My take on it is that your answer is correct, Grid.
If using two ropes don't mix twin and half rope techniques.
Only use ropes as they are rated.
When in the trade, I regularly asked karabiner manufacturers how their krabs fared with two ropes clipped. Never got a straight answer. Climbing on the continent, most folk using twin rope technique always appeared to be using chunky krabs. I would suggest that most lightweight krabs are best used with one rope.
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In reply to GridNorth:
I can see these points as fairly marginal for occasional use. I haven't heard a crab snapping under such circumstances (although I guess it might wear out quicker), and even if it did you have another below you...
I can see these points as fairly marginal for occasional use. I haven't heard a crab snapping under such circumstances (although I guess it might wear out quicker), and even if it did you have another below you...
In reply to springfall2008:
For what it's worth I've almost always climbed bolted routes using a pair of half ropes. You clip alternately and use the rope exactly as if climbing trad, and all the claimed advantages for half ropes apply just as well on bolts as they do elsewhere. Most of my mates do likewise. The few times I've climbed on (someone else's) full weight single rope I've felt less safe and found the rope drag after a long pitch becomes tiresome.
Next time you reach for that high clip just think how nice it would be if there was another rope through the one just below you. On a single rope all that slack rope in your outstretched hand could allow a mighty fall.
G
For what it's worth I've almost always climbed bolted routes using a pair of half ropes. You clip alternately and use the rope exactly as if climbing trad, and all the claimed advantages for half ropes apply just as well on bolts as they do elsewhere. Most of my mates do likewise. The few times I've climbed on (someone else's) full weight single rope I've felt less safe and found the rope drag after a long pitch becomes tiresome.
Next time you reach for that high clip just think how nice it would be if there was another rope through the one just below you. On a single rope all that slack rope in your outstretched hand could allow a mighty fall.
G
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In reply to springfall2008:
With all due respect I'm talking "back in the day". I'm sure it's less of an issue with modern equipment but still possibly worth some consideration.
To Gerry: Personally I find climbing with two ropes on sport a faff but I agree that there is nothing inherently wrong with it as far as I can tell. With regards to the high clip there is a bit of a misconception amongst many climbers that if you clip high you fall further where as in fact you fall the same distance. This is counter intuitive, I know, but try it out with a piece of string. It's really only an issue when you are near the ground.
Al
With all due respect I'm talking "back in the day". I'm sure it's less of an issue with modern equipment but still possibly worth some consideration.
To Gerry: Personally I find climbing with two ropes on sport a faff but I agree that there is nothing inherently wrong with it as far as I can tell. With regards to the high clip there is a bit of a misconception amongst many climbers that if you clip high you fall further where as in fact you fall the same distance. This is counter intuitive, I know, but try it out with a piece of string. It's really only an issue when you are near the ground.
Al
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In reply to springfall2008:
I may be unlucky and have unlucky acquaintances but have had or heard about
snapping krabs
snapping wires, pegs, bolts
slashed slings
slashed ropes
burst rope sheaths
2 ton runner blocks pulled off the crag.
To balance this, sometimes the most marginal gear has held huge whippers : -)
> I can see these points as fairly marginal for occasional use. I haven't heard a crab snapping under such circumstances
I may be unlucky and have unlucky acquaintances but have had or heard about
snapping krabs
snapping wires, pegs, bolts
slashed slings
slashed ropes
burst rope sheaths
2 ton runner blocks pulled off the crag.
To balance this, sometimes the most marginal gear has held huge whippers : -)
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In reply to whenry:
Or get a belayer who isn't pathetically weak
> Or you could just use a grigri on your single rope...
Or get a belayer who isn't pathetically weak
In reply to GridNorth:
I think there are two things being confused here:
- If you climb up 1m above the bolt and fall off you have 1m of rope out above the bolt.
- If you stand below a bolt and pull the rope up 1m to clip then you have 1m of rope between your harness and the clip and then another 1m down again to the bolt - that's double the rope out. Which is why it's better to climb up than clip high (if you are going to fall).
- But, if you have two ropes, and while one is clipped to the bolt below you pull the other one up above you and fall off it's much better as the slack you created pulling the rope up doesn't increase your fall. So now in the double rope scenario it is safer to clip from below.
Think about it this way, if the bolts were close enough together with double ropes you could dog on each bolt while clipping the next one, effectively top roping the route. On a single rope you couldn't do that and would always take a fall if you fell off while clipping!
> With regards to the high clip there is a bit of a misconception amongst many climbers that if you clip high you fall further where as in fact you fall the same distance. This is counter intuitive, I know, but try it out with a piece of string. It's really only an issue when you are near the ground.
I think there are two things being confused here:
- If you climb up 1m above the bolt and fall off you have 1m of rope out above the bolt.
- If you stand below a bolt and pull the rope up 1m to clip then you have 1m of rope between your harness and the clip and then another 1m down again to the bolt - that's double the rope out. Which is why it's better to climb up than clip high (if you are going to fall).
- But, if you have two ropes, and while one is clipped to the bolt below you pull the other one up above you and fall off it's much better as the slack you created pulling the rope up doesn't increase your fall. So now in the double rope scenario it is safer to clip from below.
Think about it this way, if the bolts were close enough together with double ropes you could dog on each bolt while clipping the next one, effectively top roping the route. On a single rope you couldn't do that and would always take a fall if you fell off while clipping!
Post edited at 20:11
In reply to springfall2008:
In both cases there are 2 metres of rope out e.g.an approx. 4 metre fall, assuming you clip at waist height. If you are clipping from below you are lower to start with. This is not allowing for other variables of course. I'm not disagreeing with your half rope scenario though, I was just pointing out an often misunderstood situation with regard to single ropes and clipping from below. You do end up lower however which is why it's more critical near the ground.
Al
In both cases there are 2 metres of rope out e.g.an approx. 4 metre fall, assuming you clip at waist height. If you are clipping from below you are lower to start with. This is not allowing for other variables of course. I'm not disagreeing with your half rope scenario though, I was just pointing out an often misunderstood situation with regard to single ropes and clipping from below. You do end up lower however which is why it's more critical near the ground.
Al
Post edited at 20:49
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In reply to GridNorth:
Ok the perfectionist in me can't let this one pass any longer
Waist by a bolt at B, pull 2m of slack and fall trying to clip a bolt 1m higher and you will fall 2m, from B to B-2
Waist 1m above bolt at B and fall trying to clip a bolt now by your waist and you will fall 2m, from B+1 to B-1
Obviously simplified for clarity
Ok the perfectionist in me can't let this one pass any longer
Waist by a bolt at B, pull 2m of slack and fall trying to clip a bolt 1m higher and you will fall 2m, from B to B-2
Waist 1m above bolt at B and fall trying to clip a bolt now by your waist and you will fall 2m, from B+1 to B-1
Obviously simplified for clarity
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In reply to john arran:
Ah yes, I see your point - the fall distance is the same but in the first case you end up 1m lower than in the second case , hence more likely to deck if close to the ground, and also have further to climb back up to try again
But yes, the original point was double ropes makes the first scenario ideal.
Ah yes, I see your point - the fall distance is the same but in the first case you end up 1m lower than in the second case , hence more likely to deck if close to the ground, and also have further to climb back up to try again
But yes, the original point was double ropes makes the first scenario ideal.
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