UKC

I haven't bought one of these for many a year but leaf through them in WH Smiths and I receive the BMC mag. If most of these mags are to be believed trad climbing starts at E3 and goes upwards - very rarely do you see a picture of anything less or a mention of lesser graded climbs About 20% of climbers climb at this level so for the rest(including me) its just 'gee-whiz.ho hum'. I want to read about climbs I could do and I suspect so do a lot of the ordinary punters. In contrast a lot of the Walking Mags contain walks for everybody although they tend to repeat themselves. Most sports are full of average performers by definition and dedicated magazines cater for this but not so for trad rock climbing it seems they are only interested in the elite. UKC is not immune from this we see articles about some wannabe climbing some miniscule poky 8b but they dont tell you they've spent 6 months rehearsing every move on a top rope - so boring. However Skeleton Ridge - I wish, love to have a go at that.

In reply to Removed Userjess13:


Where did you get that figure from? I suspect it's far less than that - at least according to BMC Membership stats.

In reply to Removed Userjess13:

i get the english mag called Climber and this mag does mention a lot of the lower graded climbs as well as the elite climbs done recently and a good variety in between and as now started as bi monthly

In reply to Removed Userjess13:

I don't know how long you've been climbing, but your comments are ones that have come up again and again over decades. Sometimes they get dealt with by changes to magazines, then the wheel turns again and the mag goes another way. The internet has only disrupted this process further, removing most of the 'news' from mags as they can't possibly compete with the web and social media.

So, Climbing Magazine (US) for instance went in the direction of having more how-to type articles, gear reviews etc plus feature articles - and almost no news. Then they got criticism for being too directed towards 'newbies', not aspirational enough - and climbing tends to be more aspirational and achievement oriented than walking. So now they're looking to move away from the beginner how-to scene and get more personal stories and other stuff.

The Needles thing was good, but have a few more of them and people will get bored of UK climbing and start asking for more bouldering, or Himalayan stories, or comp climbing, or history. Start featuring regular comp updates and get a barrage of posts on your mag's Facebook page cancelling subscriptions because you've neglected traditional alpinism.

It's a constant shifting balance, and even if you get it right, things change and you're no longer right, so you shift again. This happens over a period of years and can reflect changes in the community, in climbing, in technology, in your competition and in other things besides the competence or quality of the magazine and staff.

In reply to Removed Userjess13:

I agree, I like seeing routes from both ends the grade spectrum. It gets boring seeing really hard but otherwise rubbish routes getting written about just because they're 8c or whatever. I like it when the focus is on the quality or interest of the route (like the Bald Eagle vid) rather than how few people can climb it, that combined with a good spread of grades covered and I'm a happy climber.

In reply to Removed Userjess13:

The reason I had a bit of a rant was the articles in the latest edition of the BMC mag. There's 4 pictures 2 of Jordan Buys (E7 6c and E8 6b),Ryan Pasquill(E5 6b) and an outrageously tilted shot of James McHaffie soloing Christine Arete(E3 5c). The written article is just fluff and tells you very little except that theres great climbing in Lancashire. Who is it targeted at? Its got nothing in it to tempt the average trad climber to pay a visit. The E7 that Jordan is climbing is about 5 feet right from the classic Golden Tower an E2 that many climbers might aspire too - its the route of the quarry, failing that the groove to the right is a good VS - Samarkand but no mention of either. The other rock climbing article in the mag is titled 'How to climb 8a', you might as well say 'How would you ljke to play in the Premier League' to the average Joe.The BMC as an organisation which is inclusive of the many facets of climbing and mountaineering isnt doing itself any favours with these sort of articles.

Couldn't agree more. If I was a BMC member than I would hand in my notice.

In reply to Removed Userjess13:

Summit is 4 parts rubbish dissolved in 6 parts ads anyway. It usually takes me 3 minutes to read it entirely before binning it after another sigh (10 best mountaineering routes in the world: #1 Pyg Track; 8 things to take for an alpine trip: #1: trousers).

Even when I am not interested in an article of Climber, the photos are always superb and inspiring.

In reply to Removed Userjess13:

I would say of all the mags, Summit is the least elitist, however, your comments on the Lancashire article are warranted imho. I thought exactly the same of the image of Midas Touch instead of Golden Tower. It's just an odd collection of photos that doesn't showcase the best of the area. Hopefully the new guidebook photos are a little better. As to the how to climb 8a piece, well, there's often "beginner" "How-to" articles in their so I'd say on balance it's pretty even.

In general though, I like reading about aspirational stuff. As much as ready avbout a classic VS is nice every so often, I'd prefer to read about bigger/harder stuff. The only mag I now buy is Alpinist.

In reply to Removed Userjess13:

For a bit of balance I stopped buying mags a few year's ago as a felt the were very dumbed down and full of bimbily rubbish (I rarely climb beyond e2) so I guess you can't please everyone! I still get summit as a bmc member which I think is generally good allthough I'm getting a bit sick of the pointless interviews on the back page with 12 year olds attemping to sum up there life experience with one word - generally being "psyche"
I haven't read the lancs article as the place has always sounded a sh*thole☺

In reply to Removed Userjess13:
This months Climber cover photo is an E1 and last month I believe was an HS. This months also has a full page photo of me in it (why yes, that IS my own horn )and I'm rubbish. The corresponding article covers a trip where most of the climbing was around VS level.

I think it's entirely possible to have a mix of 'punter' level stuff that people can actually do (but is still interesting and inspiring) and aspirational awesomeness.

In reply to Removed Userjess13:


Isn't everything in Summit just fluff?
Once you've worked out what is an article and what is an advert, they all look the same and half the articles are actually adverts anyway we've got in the latest issue:-
"You need these" an article that lists a few bits of stuff most of us have no need for at all.
"What the pro takes sport climbing" a few pictures of some overpriced kit which a "pro" will no doubt get for free.
"Caffs cool 8a collection" a big list of 8a routes with no explanation of why they've been picked or why they are "cool", WTF makes route cool anyway?
Something about some bloke you've never heard of who's made thousands of cups of tea, some vacuous interviews in which, for example, some Scottish bloke tells us that other people probably see him as being Scottish etc .
Its full of jargon riddled cliches like it was written as a text message by a teenager.
Ok there's a few nice photos and a few bits of some interest but you could fit what's worth reading into about 4 pages. When you compare it with the quality of writing in Mountain or High you have to wonder why they bother, why does the BMC need to put out a glossy mag anyway?

In reply to Niall Grimes:

Couldn't agree more. If I was a BMC member than I would hand in my notice.

and if I had anything to do with helping to produce that BMC Lancs guide..I would have you boiled with black pudding...or stabbed to death with pheasants(from hoghton) quills..or at least getting a written warning..fancy leaving out all the routes in Lancs under E3 out of the New upcomming fantastic Lancs guide...you..BMC..B*astard!!!!!
Yours
Angry of Anglezarke

In reply to astley007:
Makes my blood boil. I love boiled onions. Anyone for tennis.

I suspect some people who have posted in this thread aren't cool. If you aren't cool, could you please refrain from posting your opinions on a public forum.

In reply to Niall Grimes:
Anyone for Stennis, not tennis!

In reply to Removed Userjess13:
I get Climber and it's mostly easy to mid grade stuff in the articles. After all, that's where most people are at. Substitute inspirational for elitist and you get a different perspective!

In reply to Removed Userjess13:


I know, it doesn't look like Wilton does it?! It's outrageous! That photographer should get a tripod for their iPhone.

In reply to JR:

an iPod?

In reply to Removed Userjess13:

I've taken "Climber" since it was "Climber & Rambler". It can be variable, and there are certainly times when I wonder why I bother. I very much miss Jim Perrin's writing.

The crag reports have got better. For UK crags at least they now tend to be written by someone who knows the crag and can comment about good routes across the entire spread of grades. With overseas crags it can often be more "what I did on my holidays" writing, concentrating on the routes the writer did and inevitably mostly limited to a certain grade range.

I think as the sport has become more fragmented it has become more difficult for the magazines to please everyone. I'm not interested in competitions or bouldering, but I realise that others are. I'm not much interested in the latest E8 someone has done. Inevitably it seems that I am only interested in a nincreasingly small proportion of the content, no matter how well written and photographed the remainder may be.

In reply to Removed Userjess13:

Just cancelled my subscription of climb, latest issue is 84 pages of which 21 ( Inc two half pages) are advertising. Once you remove the odd article you're not interested in, it doesn't leave a whole lot for a fiver!

In reply to Removed Userjess13:

Each to their own. Personally, I'm not interested in looking at photos of some fat punter wobbling up a VS, and I'm not interested in routes I can do - I find it more satisfying to actually go out and do them.

In reply to Helen Bach:

I agree that fit climbers on hard routes usually produce better photos, although they can all start to look a bit the same.

I'm not sure I understand your second comment - I look to magazines to draw my attention to new places which has routes I can do, so I can can plan to go and try them. If a venue has only hard routes that are beyond me that's information in itself, but where the writer only covers the routes they'd done and ignores others outside that range of grades it's not really very informative.

As well as factual information, I also look to magazines for good writing on any climbing topics, but this is harder to find. As I said, I miss Jim Perrin's articles in Climber and they haven't managed to find anyone to replace him.

In reply to Helen Bach:

You don't like us fat punters much, do you?

In reply to Helen Bach:

As a fat punter I would just like articles about crags with inspirational routes I could wobble up. Ukc is at it again somebody has just done the third ascent of an 8b+ - who cares its not a first ascent and the top game has moved on to 9a+ or 9b or whatever. Good effort to the lad but hardly that newsworthy.

In reply to Removed Userjess13:


That's funny, I thought they were talking about a boulder problem! Even for the 'top game', 9A+ is getting futuristic

In reply to Removed Userjess13:
Font 8b+ not French 8b+. Hardest Font grade being 8c+, so it's newsworthy, whereas a random ascent of a VS wouldn't be. However an article on the best VSs wherever would be of general interest. As would any destination article. UKC gets the balance about right but clearly the news will be focuses on hard stuff.

In reply to Removed Userjess13:


Hey Jess if a rubbish punter like me can get up Skeleton Ridge then I'm sure you can! The big abseil down the loose chossy chalk cliff was the hardest bit of the day rather than the climbing...
Cheers
Dave

In reply to Removed Userjess13:

So whilst we're giving the BMCs mag a bit of a kicking, how is the 'British' Mountaineering Council inclusive of Britain when in it's latest publication there's barely a mention of anything beyond England or Wales. Eg save our mountain campaign no Scottish mountains, crag update/restrictions no Scottish crags covered, the Alex Honould tour no Scottish dates and there's probably more examples only I can't find the magazine just now, left it in the garden somewhere

In reply to Tobes:
Something to do with MCofS being s separate organisation?

In reply to Misha:
True and of which I'm a member but certain MCOS cover more outwidth Scotland than the BMC does beyond England and Wales. Their title, The'BMC' is just a little misleading I feel.

In reply to Tobes:
That's a fair point.

In reply to Removed Userjess13:



That's not my general impression at all. A typical issue of a climbing magazine includes articles on the exploits of elite climbers, of course - but also includes articles on specific crags, in which a range of grades is normally represented. It is also likely that there will be articles aimed at relative newcomers to the sport. Breaking into a particular grade is also a common theme.

Is it possible that you've been rather too hasty in forming your conclusions?

Talking of which: where did your assertion that 20% of climbers climb at E3 and above come from? FWIW if I were to make a pure guess (which is what you did, I suspect), I would put the percentage quite a bit lower.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:


No.

In reply to Removed Userjess13:


What are suggesting? Maybe UKC should start reporting on FFPAs instead.

In reply to Removed Userjess13:


This one? http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=70558

Maybe if you had read some articles that didn't just focus on bumbling up routes that anyone could do you'd understand the context of this ascent (and also how grades work).

In reply to Tyler:



Elitism in a nutshell? 'Routes that anyone could do' I think the bar would be set very low for that inclusivity.

Apologise for not realising it was a boulder problem not a sport route and the confusion around grades but I suspect there are plenty of bumblies who are confused about how the current grading systems work especially around the top end.

However it was still a 3rd ascent. I dont think anybody was bothered who did the 3rd ascent of Cenotaph Corner but perhaps that was because the route was the star not the ascensionist.

A tale from Humphs barn in the sixties. About midnight a group came back from the Vaynol with one particular loudmouth. When he was told to shut up one of his sycophants said in awed tones 'Do you know who he is. He's just done the second ascent of Gollum'. A voice from the dark depths of the barn growled 'I dont care who he is or what he's done he'll end up on his arse if I have to get out of my pit'. Great hilarity from the rest of the incumbents. The noisy group in their haste to get out of the barn knocked over the rickety table with half a dozen stoves and assorted pots,bottles etc. Complete mayhem everybody awake and trying to clear the mess and the noisy group just disappeared.

In reply to Removed Userjess13:
I'd contend that Climber, at least, do that. There is rarely an article about a crag that doesn't include routes down to Severe, unless you are suggesting that all article should be about Diff to VS routes exclusively.

There may well be others who are confused but they're not the ones denegrating other's achievements or articles based on their ignorance.

You are taking your narrow view point and assuming it is shared by everyone. I am interested in the third ascentionist of Cenotaph Corner and other historic (in the UK context) routes like Pilgrimage. Books like Welsh Rock etc suggest I'm far from alone.

Nope, read it three times, still can't see the relevance.

In reply to Removed Userjess13:
>> waffle, waffle, waffle.

Lean forward and I'll knock that chip off your shoulder if you like.

In reply to Removed Userjess13:

Brown/Whillians routes had such an aura back then (and that was absolutely to do with the climber, more so than the route) that early repeats were pretty important. This being a Malc Smith problem, in that regard the examples are in a way surprisingly similar!

In reply to Tobes:

I agree with others that the BMC mag doesn't need to cover Scottish stuff since Scottish climbers tend to be affiliated to the MCofS and therefore receive Scottish Mountaineer anyway. If anything I'd level that England/Wales-centric criticism more at Climber/Climb since they do have plenty Scottish readers but usually precious little content. This month however is not a good example with Climber featuring both Steeple and a very good Old Man of Hoy article!

In reply to Removed Userjess13:

Used to love that place. I remember Mr Humphries catching a woman sleeping there, he went ballistic. 'I don't care if it was raining dogs and cats, I'm not having women in my barn!!!!

...That's be half a crown.'

On another occasion he was giving us a b*llocking about something or other, had us lined up like school kids (ah - I remember - he caught us bouldering on the barn walls), my mate was itching to drop me in it even more by telling him I'd been dancing with his daughter at a Liverpool night club the week before - which I had - and implying something more - which there hadn't been, sadly.

In reply to Tyler:


When did I denigrate his performance and I apologised about the grade confusion
I'd rather climb the route, how many subsequent ascents do we need to record.
Its about irrelevance and the debunking of self importance although perhaps self importance is regarded as a virtue in these celebrity driven days.

In reply to Removed Userjess13:
I guess it's easy for the mags to cover harder climbs because those who climb at that grade connect to it and those who don't are still interested to see, and are impressed by these feats - Lots of flashy photos of shiny climber using shiny gear - lots of ticks in boxes for sponsors and advertisers.

On the other hand if the photos are predominantly of me humping my way awkwardly up a Severe wearing glasses and a 10 year old harness, the high end climbers aren't interested and the aspirational bumblers/newbies would be cancelling their subscriptions.

Edit - just to be clear, the glasses and harness are not the only two items I wear when I climb. Nobody wants to see that !!

In reply to Helen Bach:


No need for violence. I know its a UKC forum and things get heated but theyre irrelevant in the great scheme of things but I do like to have a dig at some of the self importance and pomposity(being male I might have been accused of the latter).

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Good points, however it's not just the mag though with the BMC. Their activities and causes are mostly as you put it English/Welsh-centric and to all intents and purposes the BMC represents Britain. Though it doesn't really does it, MCOS takes care of Scotland leaving the rest for the BMC (mostly excluding Scotland).

To put it another way, if I'd travelled from another part of the world to climb in the UK, and looked for a resource that i thought represents the whole of Britain, be the authority on British climbing......the 'British' Mountaineering Council I would have thought would be it, but it ain't is it.

Perhaps it needs renaming and rebranding? (mostly taking the piss here just incase it wasn't obvious)

In reply to Tobes:

Scottish independence may make things more obvious.

In reply to Removed Userjess13:

You've made a good case that several articles were a bit rubbish. But a magazine can't publish what it doesn't have. Are some climbers writing articles complete with good photos aimed at lower grade climbers? Are such articles being refused? If so then fair enough but if not then there's not much a magazine can do.

I would imagine that the people who have more time to write articles and take photos tend to be the more committed climbers and tend to climb at the higher grades. And people write about what interests and inspires them. Those who have less time to climb will inevitably have less time to write articles too. Maybe that could be part of the reason?