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Iraq Inquiry: Chilcot says 'careful analysis needed before war'
You couldn't make it up. So up till now governments have just tossed a coin and said, 'heads we have a scrap, tails we
don't.'
But from now on we'll think about whether a particular war is worth killing young people for or not.
Well that was a few million well spent, well worth waiting for.
You couldn't make it up. So up till now governments have just tossed a coin and said, 'heads we have a scrap, tails we
don't.'
But from now on we'll think about whether a particular war is worth killing young people for or not.
Well that was a few million well spent, well worth waiting for.
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In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
Why young, all ages have died, as many of us predicted before the invasion took place? I posted on this forum that it would consume many many lives while the war of aggression was being planned.
Why young, all ages have died, as many of us predicted before the invasion took place? I posted on this forum that it would consume many many lives while the war of aggression was being planned.
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In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
Long, expensive public inquiry tells us what we already know shocker!!!
I really don't understand why we bother it's such a waste of money and effort, very few lessons are learned that couldn't be anyway by someone with half a brain.
The only enquiry that seems to have delivered any satisfaction in my memory was the Hilsborough one. Even though that too told us what we already knew, for the first time it actually meant something legally.
Long, expensive public inquiry tells us what we already know shocker!!!
I really don't understand why we bother it's such a waste of money and effort, very few lessons are learned that couldn't be anyway by someone with half a brain.
The only enquiry that seems to have delivered any satisfaction in my memory was the Hilsborough one. Even though that too told us what we already knew, for the first time it actually meant something legally.
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In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
I like this - maybe Brexit is the evidence needed to showcase independent decision making.
“The UK’s relationship with the US has proved strong enough over time to bear the weight of honest disagreement. It does not require unconditional support where our interest or judgments differ.”
I like this - maybe Brexit is the evidence needed to showcase independent decision making.
“The UK’s relationship with the US has proved strong enough over time to bear the weight of honest disagreement. It does not require unconditional support where our interest or judgments differ.”
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In reply to LeeWood:
Well I was hoping Blair would be able to persuade bush not to go to war, but instead he encouraged him (by standing with him). I was on the anti war marches.
Well I was hoping Blair would be able to persuade bush not to go to war, but instead he encouraged him (by standing with him). I was on the anti war marches.
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In reply to CurlyStevo:
goes to show just how little of a democracy we are in, protests, marches, rallies - all pointless.
> Well I was hoping Blair would be able to persuade bush not to go to war, but instead he encouraged him (by standing with him). I was on the anti war marches.
goes to show just how little of a democracy we are in, protests, marches, rallies - all pointless.
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In reply to Pesda potato:
As someone who's been on plenty of demos and marches, I'd disagree they're pointless. They don't bring about instant change, but they make a contribution to the democratic process of dissent, and they serve to demonstrate to (usually) the government that not everyone agrees with them. Democracy is about a lot more than simply voting every now and again - it's also about participating in civil society and making your voice heard. Protest marches and demos and rallies are all part of that process.
> goes to show just how little of a democracy we are in, protests, marches, rallies - all pointless.
As someone who's been on plenty of demos and marches, I'd disagree they're pointless. They don't bring about instant change, but they make a contribution to the democratic process of dissent, and they serve to demonstrate to (usually) the government that not everyone agrees with them. Democracy is about a lot more than simply voting every now and again - it's also about participating in civil society and making your voice heard. Protest marches and demos and rallies are all part of that process.
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In reply to CurlyStevo:
Here's Blair's statement, which I think seems very sincere, but maybe I'm just naive. He sounds much more nervous than I've ever heard him before:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/36727331
Here's Blair's statement, which I think seems very sincere, but maybe I'm just naive. He sounds much more nervous than I've ever heard him before:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/36727331
In reply to Fraser:
The hubris of the man is breathtaking. Even now, he's disputing Chilcots findings. He opened with a big apology and finishes pretty much with je regret rien.
The hubris of the man is breathtaking. Even now, he's disputing Chilcots findings. He opened with a big apology and finishes pretty much with je regret rien.
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In reply to toad:
I think after starting something like the war in Iraq (and all that's stemmed from it), I think probably the only way anybody could sleep at night would be to continue to think that they made the right decision.
That doesn't mean that I approve of anything to do with Tony Blair and the war in Iraq though, it's just the only way I can imagine he'd find any peace.
I think after starting something like the war in Iraq (and all that's stemmed from it), I think probably the only way anybody could sleep at night would be to continue to think that they made the right decision.
That doesn't mean that I approve of anything to do with Tony Blair and the war in Iraq though, it's just the only way I can imagine he'd find any peace.
Post edited at 16:12
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In reply to toad:
He did sound nervous in the first part. Then got into his denial routine and relaxed.
He did sound nervous in the first part. Then got into his denial routine and relaxed.
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In reply to toad:
It was a very polished performance, no doubt performed in the mirror and to camera many times over the last seven years. Every wavering of the voice, every gesture, every sniffle timed to perfection.
> The hubris of the man is breathtaking. Even now, he's disputing Chilcots findings. He opened with a big apology and finishes pretty much with je regret rien.
It was a very polished performance, no doubt performed in the mirror and to camera many times over the last seven years. Every wavering of the voice, every gesture, every sniffle timed to perfection.
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In reply to Timmd:
> I think after starting something like the war in Iraq (and all that's stemmed from it), I think probably the only way anybody could sleep at night would be to continue to think that they made the right decision.
> I'm sure he manages at least 45 winks
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In reply to Ridge:
It does seem disingenuous of him to say the intelligence turned out to be wrong - as if that was the reason he went to war, when he'd already said he'd stick by Bush in doing whatever he decided to do a year or more before hand.
It does seem disingenuous of him to say the intelligence turned out to be wrong - as if that was the reason he went to war, when he'd already said he'd stick by Bush in doing whatever he decided to do a year or more before hand.
Post edited at 19:35
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In reply to Jim C:
It's not a case of having sympathy for him, was more one of pondering human nature.
Hope the relatives of those killed can eventually feel they've found justice.
It's not a case of having sympathy for him, was more one of pondering human nature.
Hope the relatives of those killed can eventually feel they've found justice.
Post edited at 19:52
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
If I remember correctly didnt one of the inspectors in Iraq say there were no weapons of mass destruction? I wonder what happened to him?
If I remember correctly didnt one of the inspectors in Iraq say there were no weapons of mass destruction? I wonder what happened to him?
In reply to joan cooper:
Dr Hans Blix.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Blix
> If I remember correctly didnt one of the inspectors in Iraq say there were no weapons of mass destruction? I wonder what happened to him?
Dr Hans Blix.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Blix
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In reply to Gone for good:
Thanks but I was also making a sideways comment about the gentleman who apparently committed suicide! He seems to have been forgotten
Thanks but I was also making a sideways comment about the gentleman who apparently committed suicide! He seems to have been forgotten
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In reply to joan cooper:
This chap?
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/jul/16/david-kelly-death-10-years-...
"It is clear that Dr Kelly and anger over the reason Britain joined in with the Iraq war are intertwined."
"Later this year the Chilcot report is expected, but for ex-BBC boss Dyke, a one-time supporter of Tony Blair, the verdict is in: "History tells us Blair was destroyed by Iraq. Blair will be only remembered for that, just as Sir Anthony Eden will be remembered for Suez."
And not forgetting:-
http://shaphan.typepad.com/blog/2006/05/questions_about.html
"After Robin Cook died, the local police released a statement: "As this would appear to be a medical matter, there is no further police involvement." "Appear to be"? Case closed, before it was even opened. A high-profile former foreign secretary, who had maybe started to spill official secrets, dies unexpectedly, maybe of a broken neck, on land owned by an MoD insider, with an unidentified man, or group, nearby, and the police decide not to get involved. Probably wise of them, just as I probably shouldn't be writing this down, and you probably shouldn't be reading it."
> If I remember correctly didnt one of the inspectors in Iraq say there were no weapons of mass destruction? I wonder what happened to him?
This chap?
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/jul/16/david-kelly-death-10-years-...
"It is clear that Dr Kelly and anger over the reason Britain joined in with the Iraq war are intertwined."
"Later this year the Chilcot report is expected, but for ex-BBC boss Dyke, a one-time supporter of Tony Blair, the verdict is in: "History tells us Blair was destroyed by Iraq. Blair will be only remembered for that, just as Sir Anthony Eden will be remembered for Suez."
And not forgetting:-
http://shaphan.typepad.com/blog/2006/05/questions_about.html
"After Robin Cook died, the local police released a statement: "As this would appear to be a medical matter, there is no further police involvement." "Appear to be"? Case closed, before it was even opened. A high-profile former foreign secretary, who had maybe started to spill official secrets, dies unexpectedly, maybe of a broken neck, on land owned by an MoD insider, with an unidentified man, or group, nearby, and the police decide not to get involved. Probably wise of them, just as I probably shouldn't be writing this down, and you probably shouldn't be reading it."
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In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
I'm surprised this thread isn't bigger!
Independent's headline for tomorrow sums it p for me "Spinning on their graves" https://twitter.com/Independent/status/750771636413014018/photo/1?ref_src=t... (hope that works!).
I am sure I am not the only one who thought about poor old David Kelly today.
Is there a realistic chance of holding Blair accountable? The comparison that springs to my mind is the Hillsborough enquiry.
I'm surprised this thread isn't bigger!
Independent's headline for tomorrow sums it p for me "Spinning on their graves" https://twitter.com/Independent/status/750771636413014018/photo/1?ref_src=t... (hope that works!).
I am sure I am not the only one who thought about poor old David Kelly today.
Is there a realistic chance of holding Blair accountable? The comparison that springs to my mind is the Hillsborough enquiry.
Post edited at 22:17
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In reply to Bobling:
I didnt name Dr Kelly , but I think there is little hope of his name and reputation being cleared. If he did ndeed take his own life (and the truth is out there) he must have done it in despair at the arrogance of the politicians. Well thats what I think RIP Dr Kelly you did your best.
I didnt name Dr Kelly , but I think there is little hope of his name and reputation being cleared. If he did ndeed take his own life (and the truth is out there) he must have done it in despair at the arrogance of the politicians. Well thats what I think RIP Dr Kelly you did your best.
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In reply to Timmd:
Oh don't worry, the comment was in no way sympathetic, I would happily see him in court.
I was of course having a dig at Blair's 45 min claim .
( hence the 45 winks rather than 40 winks)
> It's not a case of having sympathy for him, was more one of pondering human nature.
> Hope the relatives of those killed can eventually feel they've found justice.
Oh don't worry, the comment was in no way sympathetic, I would happily see him in court.
I was of course having a dig at Blair's 45 min claim .
( hence the 45 winks rather than 40 winks)
Post edited at 22:31
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In reply to joan cooper:
Stung by the FBI for grooming a minor (?) or chat room noncery.
D
> If I remember correctly didnt one of the inspectors in Iraq say there were no weapons of mass destruction? I wonder what happened to him?
Stung by the FBI for grooming a minor (?) or chat room noncery.
D
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In reply to Fraser:
'Seems very sincere'? And Tom Cruise is actually a secret agent.
> Here's Blair's statement, which I think seems very sincere, but maybe I'm just naive. He sounds much more nervous than I've ever heard him before:
'Seems very sincere'? And Tom Cruise is actually a secret agent.
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In reply to Dauphin:
Amazing how many critics of the government turn out to be deviants isn't it? It's consistent too - doesn't seem to matter which country or what kind of regime they are up against.
Decent upstanding people sit quietly and do as they are told.
Amazing how many critics of the government turn out to be deviants isn't it? It's consistent too - doesn't seem to matter which country or what kind of regime they are up against.
Decent upstanding people sit quietly and do as they are told.
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In reply to Bobling:
Some made attempts apparently eg ; I don't think this got the publicity that it maybe should of (scroll down article for relevant information) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuala_Lumpur_War_Crimes_Commission .
And further details are out there if you look .
Some made attempts apparently eg ; I don't think this got the publicity that it maybe should of (scroll down article for relevant information) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuala_Lumpur_War_Crimes_Commission .
And further details are out there if you look .
In reply to joan cooper:
Well said. His death was a tragedy that no one has been held accountable for.
Well said. His death was a tragedy that no one has been held accountable for.
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
Have you actually read the report?
I am and it's taking a while.
> Iraq Inquiry: Chilcot says 'careful analysis needed before war'
> You couldn't make it up. So up till now governments have just tossed a coin and said, 'heads we have a scrap, tails we
> don't.'
> But from now on we'll think about whether a particular war is worth killing young people for or not.
> Well that was a few million well spent, well worth waiting for.
Have you actually read the report?
I am and it's taking a while.
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In reply to JJL:
It reminds me of Sir Humphrey explaining to Bernard how to hide info from the Minister - massive red boxes with the key info hidden in the middle - I'd think 12 volumes should satisfy Sir Humprey.
It reminds me of Sir Humphrey explaining to Bernard how to hide info from the Minister - massive red boxes with the key info hidden in the middle - I'd think 12 volumes should satisfy Sir Humprey.
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In reply to cander:
Yes!
I was really just pointing out that folk appear to have taken entrenched views based on, well, not much apart from headlines and preconceptions.
Yes!
I was really just pointing out that folk appear to have taken entrenched views based on, well, not much apart from headlines and preconceptions.
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In reply to JJL:
Yes. The original comment in this thread was posted *before* the report was published. Hardly an analytical approach.
> I was really just pointing out that folk appear to have taken entrenched views based on, well, not much apart from headlines and preconceptions.
Yes. The original comment in this thread was posted *before* the report was published. Hardly an analytical approach.
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In reply to Dauphin:
Thanks for this link, almost forgot about the man. Have you read his piece "Calling out Idiot America"?
http://www.commondreams.org/views/2007/03/24/calling-out-idiot-america
Issues like this should have been part of any discussion about nation building or whatever else one was supposed to do after displacing Saddam that would have been essential before committing to war.
CB
Thanks for this link, almost forgot about the man. Have you read his piece "Calling out Idiot America"?
http://www.commondreams.org/views/2007/03/24/calling-out-idiot-america
Issues like this should have been part of any discussion about nation building or whatever else one was supposed to do after displacing Saddam that would have been essential before committing to war.
CB
In reply to JJL:
No, my OP was based on the summary headline that the BBC published. Maybe they wrote the headline before they actually saw it!
Because you're right, it seems significantly more damning than was originally reported (and I responded to).
No, my OP was based on the summary headline that the BBC published. Maybe they wrote the headline before they actually saw it!
Because you're right, it seems significantly more damning than was originally reported (and I responded to).
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In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
The longest statement of the obvious in history.
> Iraq Inquiry: Chilcot says 'careful analysis needed before war'
> You couldn't make it up. So up till now governments have just tossed a coin and said, 'heads we have a scrap, tails we
> don't.'
> But from now on we'll think about whether a particular war is worth killing young people for or not.
> Well that was a few million well spent, well worth waiting for.
The longest statement of the obvious in history.
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
As I implied: the report hadn't been published when that headline was written. (Chilcot gave an interview on the day before publication, and that's what the headline you responded to was about.)
> No, my OP was based on the summary headline that the BBC published. Maybe they wrote the headline before they actually saw it!
As I implied: the report hadn't been published when that headline was written. (Chilcot gave an interview on the day before publication, and that's what the headline you responded to was about.)
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