UKC

Every Tory chancer in their shoddy leadership process seems to start their pitch with "I love my country..." Cameron felt it necessary to blub it out when making his resignation speech.
I used to love it, but post-Referendum it seems like we've decided we'd rather watch "On the Buses" than "Four weddings and a funeral"; that we prefer Bernard Manning to Billy Connolly; that the London Olympics opening ceremony, our marvellous Paralympics and le Grand Depart in Yorkshire was all a big sham. It's as if we've decided to go back to monochrome after 40 years of colour.
Britain just seems a dirty sepia right now. "Cool Britannia", "The Brits", Glastonbury all our glamour as a country just ... gone.
That's the bigger catastrophe for me. We seem to have turned our back on our creativity. It's a sort of cultural austerity, far worse than the fiscal version.
http://www.faber.co.uk/blog/on-brexit-stabbed-in-the-eye/?utm_source=Faber+...

In reply to Pete Pozman:

Why not move somewhere more to your taste?

In reply to Big Ger:

Because he still loves it, really, and is simply mourning?

In reply to Big Ger:

I 'ad that Richard Littlejohn in the back of my cab the other night. Very clever man...

In reply to Big Ger:


Ooooooooh, get you; ya big controversial teddy bear!

In reply to Pete Pozman:
Yes!

I just stumbled across this American ad a few minutes ago, made for Independence Day by the Ad Council and featuring famous muscle-bound WWE wrestler and all round good guy John Cena. It's a wee bit cheesy but I think you'll like it:
youtube.com/watch?v=0MdK8hBkR3s&

In reply to Big Ger:

What like Australia? Risks continuing to rant about the place.

In reply to captain paranoia:


Could be, sounds more like despising the place to me though.

In reply to Removed User:

He's an @rse.

In reply to Big Ger:

The word you are struggling to find is 'despair'.

In reply to Clauso:


Not really controversial, if you dislike what the UK has become, ("a dirty sepia",) then why not try somewhere else?

Many do just that, some stay away, others realise what they have lost, or left behind, and return.

The last thing the UK needs in the current political climate, is a bunch of Cassandra's crying "Woe, Woe, Woe, and thrice woe. Citizens of UK hear me, the UK is all a big sham."

In reply to captain paranoia:


Nope, despise.

In reply to Big Ger:

So, why did you say that Kelvin MacKenzie should be respected because he invented a temperature scale then?... That's just utter nonsense, and I struggle to take you seriously.

In reply to Clauso:

That's LORD Kelvin MacKenzie to you!

In reply to davidbeynon:

Has he been enobled for services to The Sun?... Well I never. I missed that.

... Still, fair play on finding absolute zero? That must have been a chilly shift?

In reply to Clauso:


Oh, the irony!!

In reply to KevinD:


Yes, curious that the most vocal knuckle dragging Engerland flag waving nationalist on UKC has chosen to live as far away from the place as possible. Let's hope he stays there.

In reply to Helen Bach:

I'll be moving back in Feb 2018, I cannot wait.

In reply to Pete Pozman:

Britain smells funny now as well.

In reply to Pete Pozman:

Unsubtle brexit thread is unsubtle.

In reply to Pete Pozman: I'm a bit confused by your post. I understand that the referendum result has upset you, but this post misses the point completely IMO and makes me wonder if your judgement is clouded by your sorrow?

Wasn't the Olympic ceremony celebrating all things British? (Industrial revolution/NHS/Music etc) not European? Also coolbritannia/brits/glastonbury was all about British music (Britpop) and fashion (usually involving the Union Jack..Geri Halliwell anyone?). Not Europe. Turned our back on creativity? Turned our back on the EU , yes. But creativity? Where's your evidence? I'm sure we can blame BREXIT on a lot of things, but this just all seems like a personal lament in a minor key for the sake of it.

In reply to Pete Pozman:

Interesting analysis.

I had a not dissimilar feeling after the Brexit result.

I understand that it was a simple IN/OUT referendum but it feels like it somehow has much wider repercussions about how we view ourselves and our place in the world.

It seemed like post WW2 there has been continuous trend towards societal and cultural liberalism. Gender rights, pay equality (at least in law), sexual rights, de-colonisation, freedom of movement within a continent, disability rights etc...

This was not a neat linear path of liberalism, there were bumps and dips on the way but the direction of travel seemed clear.

I understand that this has made many fearful and uncomfortable. Look at the vox pops from the 60's with people complaining about men with long hair or women with short skirts or colour of the descendants of those who stepped off the Empire Windrush in 1948.

The Brexit result feels like a vote for a more insular version of Britain, a victory for those who miss the cosy certainties of brown ale and women in the saloon bar only. The people who wail about 'political correctness'.

Maybe this will be a another of the bumps but with rise of populist politicians in countries as diverse as the Philippines, US and UK it feels a time to be vigilant and protective of freedoms that have been hard won.

In reply to Pete Pozman:
Now Nigel Farage has got MY country I want it back, but being 64 I fear I'll never see it again.

Old Brexiters make a big deal about being able to remember what it was like before EU membership. That's precisely my point. I can remember it too. The "Sixties" was all about busting that suffocating, brown windsor world apart and freeing up our spirit.
I may be an arse, Big Ger, but I draw the line at wearing Union Jack underpants. How about you giving us some reasons to be cheerful instead of just chuckin' your weight around?

In reply to Pete Pozman:




Don't worry your not the first one he's told to feck off out of the country.

In reply to deepsoup:




Love that.

In reply to Pete Pozman:

I feel your pain Pete, it's like we've been slammed into reverse after 40 years of broadly moving to a safer, more civilised world. And it was done with lies and false promises by a couple of public school drunks, who conned people who are genuinely suffering, and for whom they cared not one iota, out of the best opportunity they had for making their lives, and the lives of their children, better.

There's another thing that bothers me. Historical events are often not not recognised as such at the time - and all those sunny optimists who say that the blip is just temporary, that everything will work out for the best may of course be correct.

But they may not be. At some point in the future this may be the time that historians look back and say 'That's when Britain entered its terminal decline, with mass emigration of finance and talent, an end to inward investment, plummeting standards of living, unsustainable government finances, the £ becoming the new peso and with hugely declining influence in the world.'

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
"At some point in the future this may be the time that historians look back and say 'That's when Britain entered its terminal decline, with mass emigration of finance and talent, an end to inward investment, plummeting standards of living, unsustainable government finances, the £ becoming the new peso and with hugely declining influence in the world.'

Blimey, I don't think you are helping Pete's mood. I would avoid applying for a job with the Samaritans This isn't even"glass half empty" pessimism.... this is "glass is poisoned!"

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
Did you see Andrea Leadsom: Everything's going to be great when we get it back together with the commonwealth. We're a great trading nation?
Where's her proof? We've just smashed up a great trading agreement with our nearest neighbours. All the leadership candidates are saying stuff just to pander to a lot of silly old duffers in Conservative clubs around the country. It's a time for mediocrity and, I agree, quite possible worse.
Leadsom is a reasonable bet for Prime Minister!

Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains: round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

In reply to Pete Pozman:

I've never loved my country - I don't really understand patriotism - but I do think it's a good place to live, and in the light of the Brexit vote, my partner and I have had half-hearted conversations about where else we might want to live. For lots of reasons, we didn't come up with any suitable alternatives to where we are now in Scotland.

But I think I know what you mean - there's a sense that Britain's place in the world is diminished by the Brexit vote. At a time when alliances and cooperation are important, we seem to be withdrawing from our position of influence. Our opinion will not be sought after so much, particular with regard to European affairs, and it's likely that we will not be seen as such as significant player as we have been in the past, when we've been key collaborators across a whole range of activities.

I'm reading 'Naked Diplomacy' at the moment - it's by a former political adviser and diplomat, and it's about the future of diplomacy in the 21st century. Much of what he writes about the development of relationships seems to make a lot of sense, and unfortunately, I think the Brexit vote sends a message that we don't want to build and develop relationships with the rest of the world and that we're better off on our own. I don't believe we are better of on our own, and I have a fear we'll be overtaken by stronger partnerships and alliances. I think this is a shame because I do believe that our world influence has generally been positive (notwithstanding f*ck-ups like Iraq) - we do generally promote worthwhile liberal values of democracy, freedom of speech, tolerance and diversity, which I think make the world a better place.

In reply to Pete Pozman:

the UK will do better when we see the demise of reality tv etc... everyone needs to understand that they won't achieve their full potential unless they graft at school, college, uni and work. 99.9% of us aren't going to be millionaires by getting our kit off on national TV and neither will we win the lottery. The sooner kids / youths are taught to find things they enjoy, then try to excel at it, the happier and more productive a population we will be.

In reply to Big Ger:


That's the attitude that's got us into this Brexit mess. If something isn't as good as you think it could or should be the first response should be to try to improve it, not to throw it all away in the hope that what you might be able to find later to replace it with is indeed any better. Selling unsubstantiated and most-likely impossible dreams is the work of snake oil salesmen and Brexit campaigners.

In reply to Pete Pozman:

Here's a dose of measured optimism...

1. London has been a financial centre for much longer than the EU has existed. Over the 2.2 million employed in financial services, maybe only 10,000 are actually selling to the EU. The UK may lose a bit to Europe but it is unlikely that we'll lose everything.
2. The single market in services is much less effect than the single market in goods. Services account for a very significant amount of Britain's exports and are where the biggest opportunities for growth lie, so loss of access to eu markets has a smaller effect here
3. It is very hard to regulate services - especially creative and IT services - so again limited impact on British exports such as advertising, TV, music etc. European teenagers will still listen to tomorrow's Spice Girls.
4. Solvency II (EU regulation on the insurance sector) is regarded by some as an awful piece of regulation which actually makes it harder for British insurance companies to expand into non-EU markets. Leaving the EU gives us the opportunity to re-regulate the British insurance industry to our benefit.

In reply to summo:


Au contraire - reality TV is one of our most lucrative exports.

In reply to Bob Hughes:

I spoke to somebody who's friend works in schools to do with helping children decide what they'd like to do when they're older, and you'd be surprised at the number of children/young teenagers who say they want to be famous, or to win Big Brother, or to be the next Jordan or win Britain's Got Talent.

In reply to Bob Hughes:


that depends on who owns the rights, most are owned by the same handful of people? Exactly who benefits from this export?

I'll add to my list; various versions on online gambling, portraying the image that every will win big eventually. They all portray this idea that everyone can achieve their dreams without actually working for it. Logic says otherwise, but the message is pushed at people from so many different directions, folk lap it up.

In reply to Bob Hughes:


I agree, also, the agreed merger between Frankfurt and London is still 'currently' going ahead(London voted in favour on Mon/Tues), which had London as the HQ, even though the Frankfurt side will hold 54% of the shares. Frankfurt knows which side it's bread is buttered.

In reply to Timmd:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/course-to-prepar...

In reply to Pete Pozman:

If you want to find good stuff about this country and people making positive contributions, you will find it everywhere. I know its easy to get bogged down with the arseholes, because, just like in school, they are the ones that get lots of attention. Right now its all a big media frenzy - having a field day reporting the bile.

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

It's just a front. Anyone who signs up for it is automatically euthanised.

In reply to Pete Pozman:

Anyone I hear do the 'love my country' thing is an instant idiot in my eyes. Nationalism and patriotism are ugly things and I think (/hope) they are avoided by most decent people.

In reply to Pete Pozman:
Everything you apparently take delight in as the artistic zenith of the U.K. is middle of the road, middle england, and shit. For the record. From On the Buses to Glastonbury. Maybe if your cultural viewing scope want brought to you by the BBC and the Guardian on Sunday then maybe you'd have a point. Or not. But you shouldn't be having a testosterone crisis over the greatest political event of the century if you looked a little wider than Later with Jools. Just dream of the opportunities for new narratives, not least for art and culture.

D

In reply to summo:



Mmm. Anyone else seeing parallels with the Brexit vote here?

In reply to Dauphin:

Because the big bad EU held back art and culture how?

In reply to Big Ger:

Free movement will end so he won't even have that option easily unfortunately !

In reply to Big Ger:

>bunch of Cassandra's crying "Woe, Woe, Woe, and thrice woe.

That's four woes, I'm losing count, what's after thrice? Fourice?

In reply to Sir Chasm:


Because the UK government couldnt spend the money to support it. Now we are out we will have 350million to spend on the arts a week!

In reply to Pete Pozman:

Nowts changed yet you silly old fart, have another drink - wait a couple of years and then start whining if anythings actually changed (personally I'm not betting on much changing).

In reply to Bob Hughes:


That's you safe from Leadson's 'banishment'.... best give it a go myself, you never know.

In reply to Sir Chasm:

You lost me in the binary subtext U.K. Bad / E.U. Good. Its a non sequitar. The best art comes out of conflict. It stands to reason that an embittered youth on the back of the Leave vote will become more politically awake, demonstrative and create formidable art to express these motives.

D

In reply to Bob Hughes:

I'm all for optimism, I'm a sunny sort of guy. I hope you're right.

Personally thought the very strongest case against Brexit was that it is an awfully big deck of cards to throw in the air and see how they land. But you may be right, maybe they'll land in a neat pile, and all in order.

In reply to KevinD:


Of course, how stupid of me. With that and Summo's plan to ban reality TV we'll be sorted by Christmas.

In reply to Dauphin:

Christ that's an apocalyptic vision - so you see Brexit as a sort of C21st re-run of medieval Italy, with general mayhem and anarchy entirely justified by the art we enjoy 500 years later?

I'm not sure that the widows, the rape victims, the starved peasantry of the time would have agreed with you.

In reply to cander:

Then what was the point of voting to leave, you tw*t?

In reply to Dauphin:



Gotcha, I'll look forward to that.

In reply to Pete Pozman:

Didn't Gove also mention the Commonwealth? Yes, I'm sure that flogging Nissans to Zimbabwe will more than make up for any market lost in the EU.

In reply to Timmd & summo:

Maybe my post needed a smiley. I'm not actually suggesting a reality-tv-led recovery.

to Timmd's point - I don't think that would surprise me at all. On the other hand it doesn't really bother me. After all in the 60's and 70's it was fashionable for 10-year olds to want to be astronauts. In other words, most 10-year olds have unrealistic expectations about adult life. I believe I wanted to be Robin Hood. That's partly the joy of being 10.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Fully agree. If it does work out nicely, it wont be because the Leave campaign had any idea what they were talking about.

In reply to George Fisher:
If I remember my mythology Cassandra was right but cursed to be ignored.

So what he is actually saying is that the doom criers are spot on but he's not going to listen.

In reply to Sir Chasm:

The point of voting to leave was to stop things changing.
Stop our influence diminishing.
Stop our population rising so fast.
Stop our EU contribution rising.

In reply to Pete Pozman:

Gove in the Spectator on why he decided to run, putting a positive spin on the glorious future facing a post Brexit Britain:
‘I compare it to a group of people standing outside a collapsing building, wondering who is going to rescue a child inside,’ he says. ‘I thought: well, I don’t think I’ve got either the strength or the speed for this, but as I looked around, I thought, God, I’m at least as strong and at least as fast as the others. I’ve got to try to save the child.’

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/i-had-to-step-up-michael-gove-on-how-he-...

"Also, I was one of the people who rigged the main supports of the building with TNT in the first place..."

In reply to David Riley:


How's that working out so far?

In reply to Ramblin dave:

We got the exchange rate back to 1980s levels, so half way to our glorious pre EU past already.

In reply to David Riley:





That's an interesting rewriting of history. Victor's prerogative I suppose.

In reply to David Riley:





i can't work out whether you are serious or not.... whether or not you agree with it, surely voting to reject an organisation which has defined our relationship with the rest of the world for the past 40 years and on which we rely for large chunks of our domestic regulation cannot be described as a vote to stop things changing?

In reply to Timmd:

I don't think age group life aims change much over time? I forgot who it was that said something like the aims are.

Age 14: Be rich and famous
Age 18: Be rich OR famous
Age 30: Remember to buy washing powder

In reply to Bob Hughes:

I believe I wanted to be Robin Hood. That's partly the joy of being 10.

Gove wanted to be the Sheriff of Nottingham...

In reply to Removed User:

It's possible to love one's country without being a 'patriot' or 'nationalist'. There are many aspects one can love about a country that don't involve any feeling of superiority over other people.

In reply to Sir Chasm:

Because I want things to change you arse

In reply to cander:



Hey dude you must be a mate of mine to know me so well. I will let you buy me a drink then.

In reply to cander:

Things always change, haven't you noticed, you prat?
BTW, have we got a plan for change yet?

In reply to Sir Chasm:

Various Tory MPs have some vague plans and the Tory membership will choose one of those. Not your concern.

In reply to Bob Hughes:


Where are these figures from? What does selling to the EU mean? Do you mean employed to do work for customers abroad?


that's absolute nonsense as far as IT services are concerned! It's probably fair to say that many IT regulations come from the UK or the U.S. but that's not to say that things like PCI or SOX wouldn't be adopted by the EU.

In reply to Dauphin:



I know there's loads of stuff that you like or know about that is probably "the artistic zenith of the UK" but I Just cited the first things that came into my head that indicated a mood of inclusivity and good feeling. There was a consensus that the Days of Empire was one kind of "Great" Britain and now we were moving forward as an exemplar to the world as a live-and-let-live, cheerful, innovatory, fearless country. The Brexit vote just says "get lost!" to the world. It's not new, it's old, old, old.

In reply to Pete Pozman:
Was a country wanting to leave the Soviet Union saying "get lost" to the world ?
Is it different just because you like the EU ?

In reply to Dauphin:


Like the lack of funding for both?

In reply to Sir Chasm:
Yeah send all the arses to Brussels - off you go

In reply to David Riley:



Very funny, because the USSR was all about freedom of movement etc. wasn't it? Did many countries apply to join the USSR?

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:


No. Though thank you for the offer.

In reply to cander:


You just want to deport people you don't like. Fear of the "other".

In reply to Ramblin dave:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/i-had-to-step-up-michael-gove-on-how-he-...

That is very sinister. Gove is an ultra libertarian by the sound of it. He wants to get to the collapsing building first so he can take control of the ruins and remake them in an image that suits his "philosophy". He was very busy as Education Secretary dismantling fully functioning machines and throwing all the parts away. Make no mistake this is what he wants to do with the country.
I'm beginning to think he planned this right from the beginning; take a ride on Boris's balloon then ditch him at the last moment. Then "take control"... Is he actually evil?

In reply to Pete Pozman:

I think you've misunderstood the phrase. These politicians are only interested in themselves, and what they can do to build their family empires.

The rest of us have a Family tree - and we all love our families - Polutiions; on the other hand ........

In reply to Pete Pozman:

It's as if we've decided to go back to monochrome after 40 years of colour.

Whilst I'm not so sure about your cultural references (Billy Connolly as a high point of humour? "The Brits"?) I do share, for what its worth, your sense of regression.

But you know you still love it, really! Or you wouldn't bother.

In reply to Pete Pozman:

I was on a march in London in 2014, protesting against the bombing of Gaza, when my epiphany occurred, I was eating a sandwich (Chicken tikka salad) across the road from the houses of parliament. The Union Jack ( or Flag for the pedants) was blowing in the wind and it look brilliant sunlit against a dark sky.

It was then I realise I really did used to be proud of my country, and that I wasn't that proud of it any more, it came as quite a shock to be honest, as I didn't think it bothered me that much, but it did. Maybe it's to do with age or maybe the people leading the country don't seem to represent me or the majority of the people but it's changed and it doesn't seem to be getting any better.

In reply to Pete Pozman:


Andrew Marr pulled him to bits on this on Sunday,
AM: "how long have you know Boris?"
MG: (Oh! christ I've only just noticed, explains a lot!!), anyhow,
MG:" about 30 years"
AM: " and it took you until the day the nominations closed, to decide he wasn't PM material, and you couldn't call him before you told the press this?"

What ever HE says about it, this interview spoke volumes about what he'd been planning all along.

In reply to David Riley:



It's mainly different because the Soviet Union was an aggressive dominant colonialist power (as in fact was Britain) and the EU is a partnership of like minded sovereign states which can walk away any time they want and no body will try to stop them apart from through persuasion. The consequence of wanting to leave the USSR was near annhilation then suppression viz Chechnya. The consequence of wanting to leave the EU is we leave. Ex Soviet bloc countries mainly want to be in the EU rather than "Back in the USSR"

In reply to Pete Pozman:

Not saying get lost to the world.

In reply to Pete Pozman:


Do you not think the EU would have tried if it could ? If it could have forced us to have another referendum for instance ?

In reply to David Riley:


And if it had eight legs and lived in the sea it'd be an octopus. But it doesn't, so it isn't.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Not necessarily, it could be a pycnogonid, which sounds like a psycho gonad...which could be construed as being EU like, if you're Nigel Farage for instance...

In reply to David Riley:


Any dissent from Soviet states and countries in the Soviet empire was put down through aggressive military action - Prague Spring perhaps? That's a little different to anything that the EU might have considered with the UK - EU reaction didn't really amount to anything beyond tutting loudly.

Any attempt to try to create parallels between the EU and the USSR is a bit stupid, and suggests a certain lack of history and perspective.

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:
I stand corrected.

In any case, the point is that just because we can make up alternative-reality versions of the EU that are more like the USSR, it doesn't make the comparison of the EU to the USSR any more sensible.

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

At a college? Good lord.

In reply to David Riley:


If you find them similar, perhaps look into why countries which used to be in the USSR are keen to joint the EU?

In reply to tony:

If you say it's stupid bringing into the discussion, of your extremely wonderful and magnificent EU, the most recent previous grouping of adjacent countries. Then that's starting to sound like mindless religious fervour.
Obviously they were very different. But still relevant.

In reply to Tyler:


They come fro the Treasury Select Committee. I don't have much detail on what the numbers represent but I understood it to mean people working for uk-based banks selling to eu-based customers.


Maybe IT Services was the wrong word. I'm really thinking about consumer services delivered over the Internet - eg Google. Short of blocking it outright it would be difficult to regulate access to google, as an example. The long battle to close down pirate bay is a good example.
On the regs you mention SOX is an accounting regulation, isn't it? And PCI (data security ) isn't enforced at government level anyway, it is enforced by the card schemes via the acquiring banks and is already very applicable to the eu.

In reply to David Riley:


Where did I say anything about the EU being extremely wonderful and magnificent? I didn't - you're just making stuff up.


So explain the relevance of comparing a group of like-minded nations with shared goals joining together peacefully in a mutually beneficial trading partnership with a murderous military regime which put down dissent with absolute power and which had no time or space for individual freedoms, personal liberty, or even for any environmental protections, workers rights, and so on. What point are you trying to make?

In reply to tony:

Exactly, well put.

In reply to tony:


I did not say you said that.

In reply to tony:
My Estonian colleague agrees with you, but she was much, much ruder about David!

In reply to David Riley:


Since you've accused him of having mindless religious fervour, can I ask if you're one of the 'swivel eyed loons' of whom Cameron spoke to do with their dislike of the EU?

Comparing it to the USSR is like comparing apples and oranges. People had no freedoms to start their own business, or to go against the political party in charge, or many other things which we take for granted, when they lived in the USSR.

Edit: I am interested in why you think they're similar though, another perspective is always healthy. Pardon my tongue in cheekness.

In reply to Pete Pozman:

'Is he actually evil?'

No Pete, I know you have been at the receiving end of his 'we've had enough of experts' journalistic fuelled b*llocks, but no, he looks like a chump, talks like a chump and in fact ... is a chump.

Strangely it appears that even the Tories have sussed him. Bye bye, Michael, I'm afraid you won't be missed.

In reply to tony:

It is relevant because it is the most recent previous grouping of adjacent countries, part of the history which you mentioned, and included some of the countries of the EU.

In reply to tony:
'Where did I say anything about the EU being extremely wonderful and magnificent? I didn't - you're just making stuff up. '

I did, and I will again. The first time in the history of the world that a group of nations has voluntarily come together to transcend national borders and create economic prosperity, combined with environmental protection and social justice.

The world looks on with envy at a club we have stormed out of, on the whim of two ex public school drunks and con men.

In reply to David Riley:
Why do you think many ex-USSR countries are keen to join the EU?

Edit: If they're similar (?)

In reply to David Riley:


Dont you think that, just possibly, the differences make it a rather poor comparison? The entire created and maintained via force by a dicatorship vs not bit?

In reply to David Riley:


You said "If you say it's stupid bringing into the discussion, of your extremely wonderful and magnificent EU ..." ascribing to me the view that the the EU is "extremely wonderful and magnificent". Don't try to wriggle out of it.

But that's not the important thing. What possible relevance is there in comparing the EU with the USSR?

In reply to Timmd:

I did not accuse anyone of anything. Neither have I been rude.
Comparing apples with oranges would be perfectly reasonable if it illustrated a point you were making.
"I am interested in why you think they're similar though, another perspective is always healthy."
As I said the USSR was the most recent previous grouping of adjacent countries and similar in that respect at least.

In reply to David Riley:


Was the USSR a voluntary coming together of like-minded nations, or was it a brutally enforced military regime?

You cannot possibly believe with any credibility there's any useful comparison to be made. Unless you're a complete idiot.

In reply to David Riley:

Pardon me for being rude. People have voted to Leave because of things 'to do' with the nature of the grouping, though, which is why I was asking why you think they're comparable.

Edit: I can forget people can't hear my tone of voice on here, or notice other forms of communication.

In reply to David Riley:


<quote>
In reply to tony:

If you say it's stupid bringing into the discussion, of your extremely wonderful and magnificent EU
</quote>

That use of 'your' is tantamount to saying Tony said it.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:




Yes time for him to exit to that "very deep pit of hell" reserved for him. Some good news at last.

In reply to David Riley:


This is the most irrelevant and frankly moronic comparison since, well, since boris compared the EU to nazi Germany....

Nazis, communists- what other bad things can brexiteers compare the eu to? IS? England footballers?

In reply to Pete Pozman:


Nigel Farage resigned a couple of days back, do keep up.


So you don't want us to go back to pre-Eu membership when it was "all about busting that suffocating, brown windsor world apart and freeing up our spirit."

Why not?


I have the same "weight" here as anyone else.

Reasons to be cheerful?

Try this;

Noel Malcolm is a Senior Research Fellow of All Souls College, Oxford.

In reply to RomTheBear:


You're right, he's not the first as;
a) I didn't tell him "to feck off out of the country."
2) I've never told ANYONE to "to feck off out of the country."

We can always rely on your for a good old fashioned lie and slur, eh Rom, you are, after all, the most dishonest person on the board.

In reply to john arran:


Whining on the internet about how; "like we've decided we'd rather watch "On the Buses" than "Four weddings and a funeral"; that we prefer Bernard Manning to Billy Connolly; that the London Olympics opening ceremony, our marvellous Paralympics and le Grand Depart in Yorkshire was all a big sham. It's as if we've decided to go back to monochrome after 40 years of colour," is hardly likely to make the UK a better place is it?

In reply to RomTheBear:


Oh dear, sorry I forgot! The state should make everything easy for everyone in your world view.

In reply to Big Ger:
Calling people Cassandras whom you don't agree with isn't either, particularly.

It's a mite sexist too.

One of my best friends is called Cassandra.

(Some of the above may not be true...)

In reply to Big Ger:





The Nigel Farage comment refers to his victory crow: "I've got my country back!" My point was: he's got his country, but mine has been stolen i.e. the country I love not the country he loves.

Are you, Big Ger, that very Senior Research Fellow from All Souls College, Oxford, writing under a nom de plume (name of pen)? Because, if you are, I just better back off as I only went to University College, Swansea.

In reply to Timmd:




Sorry, you're probably too young to remember the show "Up Pompeii", it was a quote from, and reference to, a character in that .

youtube.com/watch?v=_vtPTgPYn2k&

In reply to Pete Pozman:

You're very melodramatic, he no more "has" the country than you do.



Nope, though you have my commiserations for having to go to that; "Ugly, lovely town ... crawling, sprawling ... by the side of a long and splendid curving shore" I grew up in the area, and couldn't wait to leave.

In reply to Big Ger:

I think you're possibly being rather too literal, in that perhaps he means he fears the nature of the country he's grown to love will now change, which could amount to a sense of losing the country he currently knows (so giving him a sense of losing it to others)?

If you just want to score a point, though, it's correct to point out that neither of them 'has' the country. Happy days

In reply to Big Ger:

As you are not a fellow I might not find it quite so hard keeping up with you after all.



That's another thing we won't be able to agree on then; I love the place, its people and scenery.

In reply to Timmd:


That's true, and its what I thought. But to say that the country has changed so dramatically in such a short space of time, is ...rather melodramatic... wouldn't you say..

Did the UK and it's citizens change so dramatically over the space of a few weeks / months?

Or was it just that people had a chance to say what they thought of the EU?

In reply to Pete Pozman:

You shouldn't, I'm just an ordinary bloke after all.


What? Even Port Talbot?

In reply to captain paranoia:

I had to rush off to defend my 2nd position (age) in the final race of a series. Success, £20 prize and a spot prize too.
Sorry but I don't agree with you at all.

It was quite clear to everybody what Tony had said :

"Any attempt to try to create parallels between the EU and the USSR is a bit stupid, and suggests a certain lack of history and perspective."

I replied.

"If you say it's stupid bringing into the discussion, of your extremely wonderful and magnificent EU, the most recent previous grouping of adjacent countries. Then that's starting to sound like mindless religious fervour.
Obviously they were very different. But still relevant."

No part of that is a quote. I was using obvious sarcasm to make the point that no matter how amazing the EU is, it does not make it stupid to compare it with the previous bloc. It is clear that Tony said none of that, and in no way suggests he did.

In reply to Big Ger:

It might depend on how you look at it? If reported hate crimes have gone up by 5 times (iirc) since the 24th of June, then one might say that people feeling more free to be unpleasant to people who are observably 'not British', that's definitely one change which has occurred. Whether this will go back to pre Brexit levels or not remains to be seen, hopefully it will.


From actually living here, I have noticed a change in the atmosphere at times, around the shopping area I've known since childhood in Sheffield, in a way that I've never quite experienced before, in there being a certain tension at times when groups of blokes are gathered together. It's one of those 'You know it when you feel it' things, being an intermittent thing rather than being constant. I think the leave campaign pressed 'a button of disgruntlement' in people and conflated leaving the EU with people who are 'others' being less of a source of contention in the UK, and since the referendum people are possibly feeling it more strongly - justified in their disgruntlement after winning, it is expressed and 'in the air' a little bit more.

That's just my take, and those of others will be different from living in other cities, and parts of cities, and regions etc.

I have quite a lot of faith in people in the UK being generally tolerant and agreeable, though.

In reply to Timmd:



Well said sir!

In reply to Big Ger:


How much money would it take for you to reconsider and stay where you are? I'll start a crowd-funding initiative to raise the amount.

In reply to Helen Bach:


It would take more money than you can ever imagine.

In reply to David Riley:





You used 'you' early in the sentence, and did nothing to suggest that 'you' and 'your' do not refer to the same person. Stop trying to wriggle out of it.

Besides, what about that idiocy of comparing the USSR and the EU?

In reply to tony:

Yet another lacky completely duped by capitalist propaganda, the glorious USSR was the crowning success of the communist movement. Did you know the USSR changed from a backward peasant society to a world industrial power in 30 years and in passing defeated the forces of fascism only to be backstabbed by the degenerate evil capitalist dogs of the west.

In reply to cander:

And the red army choir were excellent.

In reply to tony:

I see you are an Editorial Consultant. So I assume you understand me perfectly well and are just trying to annoy.
That is a shame. It makes the forum pointless. Perhaps we will meet in a fell race and you will not act the same in those circumstances.

In reply to Pete Pozman:
Jesus Christ!

This is pathetic and just a continuum of the Brexit mud slinging we witnessed from our representatives.

I am (was) a remainer voter, but I have accepted that in all likelihood that Brexit is going to happen. Even most of us "remainers" wanted change of some sort. It's time we made that change happen. Let's make this Kingdom United again and change the establishment both sides want to kick.

This is a chance for real change, but if we bicker amongst ourselves, instead of letting our true voices be heard, the self-serving politicians will just carry on as usual.

Divide and rule!

In reply to davidbeynon:
Not forgetting the Bolshoi Ballet comrade.

In reply to Bellie:

It is not *all* a media frenzy. There are real negatives and very serious concerns following the Referendum.

In reply to David Riley:


No, I don't understand why you're trying to wriggle so much. You also suggested I was in the grip of "mindless religious fervour". I have no problems with people challenging my views, but I do object to people making up nonsense. If you're going to get all upset about the forums being pointless, perhaps you should be a bit more careful with what you say and the way you say it. Perhaps it might have been simpler if you had apologised for ascribing views to me which I don't hold?

And anyway, annoying you is a mere sideshow. You failed to give any substantive reply to my questions regarding the comparisons between the EU and the USSR. To save you the effort of looking, here's what I said yesterday:
So explain the relevance of comparing a group of like-minded nations with shared goals joining together peacefully in a mutually beneficial trading partnership with a murderous military regime which put down dissent with absolute power and which had no time or space for individual freedoms, personal liberty, or even for any environmental protections, workers rights, and so on. What point are you trying to make?

Over to you.

In reply to cander:


Damned fine march-pasts too, if you like that kind of thing - lots of shiny guns'n'stuff.

In reply to tony:

Shame they were too drunk to work them

In reply to cander:


So, another big plus for the USSR - plentiful supplies of cheap vodka.

In reply to davidbeynon:

Was it them that gigged with Roger Waters in Berlin?

And that Sputnik was ahead of its time too!

In reply to Andy Say:

And their sporting achievements!

In reply to tony:

There was a vodka drinking contest in Kazan a few years ago first prize was a years supply of vodka. The winner drank 3 1/2 bottles in an hour - however he died straight away. So the runner up got the prize - apparently he was told he'd won a day later when he came too.

In reply to Hugh J:
Yep drug taking on an heroic scale - they could have been climbers in the 70's

In reply to tony:

"If you're going to get all upset" The only person getting all upset is you. I deny saying or suggesting anything that might have brought that about. I'm sorry you think I have.
I don't know why you feel so confrontational ?
I did answer your question :

"It is relevant because it is the most recent previous grouping of adjacent countries, part of the history which you mentioned, and included some of the countries of the EU."
"Obviously they were very different. But still relevant."

You said :

"Any attempt to try to create parallels between the EU and the USSR is a bit stupid, and suggests a certain lack of history and perspective."

The only point I was making was that the USSR and EU did have some things in common. They were both groups of adjacent countries, existing at the same time, centrally controlled, some of the population in favour, some against.
One country even transferred directly from the USSR to the EU.
Yes, there are big differences. Why get so excited about it ?

In reply to David Riley:

You've certainly convinced me that the eu and USSR are comparable. In much the same way that your vision of the UK outside of the eu is comparible to North Korea, a sovereign nation, in charge of its own destiny, all the people getting behind the government.

In reply to David Riley:

You see, you're making stuff up. Who said I was upset?
And who were you referring to when you used the words 'you' and 'your'?


Thank you for the apology, although I note it's a politician's apology, in which you don't actually accept responsibility for your actions. Just because you deny something doesn't mean you didn't do it.


No, you really didn't. Again, just because you said something doesn't mean it's a meaningful answer.


I'm not in the least bit excited about it. I will admit to being bemused that you think there's any point in making comparisons. For example, how do you think dissenting voices like Nigel Farage and Marine Le Pen would have got on in the USSR? In the EU, they've been allowed to take part in the democratic processes of the EU for up to 17 years in Farage's case. Do you think they'd have managed the same in the USSR?

In reply to tony:

Since you pretend not to take me at my word. I'll take you at yours "annoying you is a mere sideshow." I don't find you worthwhile.

In reply to David Riley:


Still making stuff up. What am I pretending about? I don't really know what 'your word' is. Whether you find me worthwhile or not is neither here nor there. The bizarre thing is that you appear unable to explain the relevance of your comparison between the USSR and the EU in any meaningful fashion.

In reply to Big Ger:


You can't imagine how much money I can imagine.

In reply to David Riley:


You mean, like the UK ?

In reply to Pete Pozman:

i don't really love my country, or any country.
the whole nation state thing has run its course. obviously a lot of people disagree with that nowadays.
i love or not love people. often quite strongly.

In reply to Helen Bach:


I imagine it's quite a lot, I can imagine infinite money.

In reply to David Riley:

Big difference I guess is the voluntary nature of the EU. EU tanks aren't going to be rolling through London now we've decided to leave, a la Prague in 1968 or Budapest in 1956.

In reply to Helen Bach:


I imagine I can.

In reply to krikoman:


I will take your infinity and add 1. At the risk of straying into maths nerd territory.

In reply to summo:


I've already baggsied, infinity to the power of infinity though!

In reply to krikoman:

which infinity?

There is an infinite hierachy of infinities, each qualitatively and infinitely larger than the one below...

Of course the answer is the biggest, but I don't think you can use that for money because you count cash with integers.

In reply to davidbeynon:



The infinite infinity.

In reply to krikoman:

they are all infinite, just different types of infinite.

In reply to davidbeynon:



yes but even whether there is an infinite between the smallest and second smallest depends on how you define mathematics.
plus its rather confusing to say 'infinitely larger' in this context because you are not saying which infinite that refers to.

In reply to spotter1:

Don´t even go there, Cantor ended up mad!

CB

In reply to cb294:



infinitely mad ?

In reply to Big Ger:

No, it sounds like he despises twunts like you. Luckily you buggered off, which makes the UK a slightly less nasty place in my book,

In reply to Graeme Alderson:


Please quote where I have said anything as nasty as your comment above.

Fancy getting together for a pint when I return to live in the UK in Feb 20128?

In reply to Big Ger:



I'll meet you for a pint then.

In reply to Sir Chasm:

Nice one.

In reply to Big Ger:

If you're still around in Feb 20128, then I'll not only meet you but will happily buy you all the beer that you can drink.

In reply to Clauso:

Thanks, that's great.

In reply to Big Ger:

Don't mention it... If I invest a penny in a compound interest account tomorrow, then I expect that I'll probably be able to buy the whole country a pint too.

In reply to Clauso:

One pint for the entire country is a bit tight.

In reply to davidbeynon:

I was allowing for a massive population increase, and a huge hike in the cost of a pint following the disastrous Great Yeast Mutation Crisis of 19075 and the Horrific Hop Crash of 20009.

In reply to Clauso:

I see we still haven't gone metric!


Good for us, it was worth coming out of the EU

In reply to Big Ger:

Not really.