UKC

Ashima in 45-ft ground fall in climbing gym (she's ok!)

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 SallyM 10 Jul 2016
http://www.rockandice.com/climbing-news/ashima-shiraishi-injured-in-45-foot...

A reminder of potential gri-gri user error. According to the article:

"Though well versed with a belay device, Hisatoshi Shiraishi succumbed to an all-too-common user error. According to Retseck, he accidently clasped down on the Grigri 2’s brake release lever that he was using to belay Ashima, which caused her to drop 45-feet to the padded floor."

 Pete Dangerous 10 Jul 2016
In reply to SallyM:

I don't fully understand what happened. Did he just open up the device as you would when letting a person descend and allowed the rope to slip through his brake hand for a full 45ft?
 zimpara 10 Jul 2016
In reply to Pete Dangerous:

Yes, but you generally don't clasp the lever right down do you. Otherwise freefall unless strong brakehand...
3
 Oceanrower 10 Jul 2016
In reply to zimpara:

Err, surely you do. And control the dead end of the rope like any other belay device.
11
 Pete Dangerous 10 Jul 2016
In reply to zimpara:
No, but it would take concentrated effort to pull it all the way back for a sustained period of time without realising what was happening and to not have reduced the descent with the brake hand. If you're hand is in the correct position you can control the rope with the lever fully open. I would never open it fully though.

I'm willing to bet his succumbed to looking at someone else's bottom and lost his concentration.
Post edited at 17:34
 zimpara 10 Jul 2016
In reply to Oceanrower:

Have you used a grigri, that's how this sort of thing happens. Feather the lever, dont clasp
3
 Greasy Prusiks 10 Jul 2016
In reply to SallyM:

Glad she's OK, wish her a speedy recovery.

 flash13 10 Jul 2016
In reply to zimpara:

Of course you open it fully. It isnt designed to be pulled half open otherwise dont you think it would be a design option?
If you struggle to hold it open should you be using it? However i recommend a glove it helps with the rope burn.

In terms of ashima its another classic case of poor gri gri use. I doubt he was holding the dead end of the rope because i find it hard to believe that someone of ashimas weight is difficult to catch.
15
 Neil Morrison 10 Jul 2016
In reply to Lucky, lucky girl to walk away from it. Scary and all too easy for it to happen. I'm sensitised to belaying with grigris (and any device ) and a quick scan round belayers at my local wall shows plenty potential for this sort of accident. And that is after a bad accident there!
 1poundSOCKS 10 Jul 2016
In reply to flash13:

> Of course you open it fully. It isnt designed to be pulled half open otherwise dont you think it would be a design option?
> If you struggle to hold it open should you be using it? However i recommend a glove it helps with the rope burn.

Like zimpara, I control the speed of lower off with the brake, the rope runs through my hand as a backup. It's easy to do with a bit of practice and nothing to do with struggling to open it. I don't think rope burn should be a worry if you're using it correctly.
1
 Fraser 10 Jul 2016
In reply to Oceanrower:
> Err, surely you do. And control the dead end of the rope like any other belay device.

Err, surely you don't! You use it like a reverse accelerator, gently pulling the lever back only as far as required to lower the leader and your other hand allows the dead rope to slip back through, grabbing it tight in emergency, same as other traditional belay devices.

Edit: skip to 2:56 in this video where Sharma explains the lowering principle:
youtube.com/watch?v=Xy_qChGWfe0&
Post edited at 21:51
 Fraser 10 Jul 2016
In reply to flash13:

> Of course you open it fully. It isnt designed to be pulled half open otherwise dont you think it would be a design option?

It's an adjustable-position lever not a switch, so of course having it half open is a 'design option' as you put it.

 La benya 10 Jul 2016
In reply to flash13:
> Of course you open it fully. It isnt designed to be pulled half open otherwise dont you think it would be a design option?

> If you struggle to hold it open should you be using it? However i recommend a glove it helps with the rope burn.

You're taking the piss right? Ha ha har very good. Now stop spouting dangerously inaccurate information on safety devices before someone less experienced doesn't realise you're an arse and actually does what you suggest.
Post edited at 23:21
 radddogg 10 Jul 2016
In reply to SallyM:

The more I read about the grigri the more I'm glad I don't have one.

Wouldn't have happened with a megajul...
7
 Oceanrower 10 Jul 2016
In reply to zimpara:

> Have you used a grigri, that's how this sort of thing happens. Feather the lever, dont clasp

Often. And I've never dropped someone on it. You?
4
 FactorXXX 11 Jul 2016
In reply to SallyM:

From the article, the wall manager has quite correctly refused to comment about possible/probable causes.
However, as this is UKC and others have already done so, here's my 'assumption' of what might have happened. The belayer was giving out slack by pressing down on the cam with their left hand, whilst paying out rope on the live end with their right one. Totally against all recommendations, but a lot of people do it...
 Fraser 11 Jul 2016
In reply to Oceanrower:

> Often. And I've never dropped someone on it. You?

Can I ask why you fully pull back the lever? It's clearly not designed for this to be the standard lowering method, unless you have a very light leader and there's lots of rope drag, that's the only situation in which I ever fully open the lever.
 zimpara 11 Jul 2016
In reply to Oceanrower:

Yes and I really rate the grigri.

So if you lower climbers with the level fully open, that stands to reason that you abseil with it fully open too, defeats the point of an assisted brake device doesn't it?
1
 summo 11 Jul 2016
In reply to zimpara:

> Yes and I really rate the grigri.
> So if you lower climbers with the level fully open, that stands to reason that you abseil with it fully open too, defeats the point of an assisted brake device doesn't it?

I think they complicate a simple task and allow laziness or complacency to creep in. They encourage sloppy hand work, when using a traditional device it would never be an option. Worse still many people use them at the very beginning of their climbing career, so they don't ever learn correctly for years.

3
 zimpara 11 Jul 2016
In reply to summo:

Perhaps you're right. But for the experienced. Good bit of kit! It's classic ATCs that scare the hell out of me! Deadly and won't climb belayed by one.
22
 timjones 11 Jul 2016
In reply to zimpara:

> Have you used a grigri, that's how this sort of thing happens. Feather the lever, dont clasp

Surely competent belayer should be able to hold a climber even with the lever held fully open?

Especially when the climber appears to be a light 15 year old.
 timjones 11 Jul 2016
In reply to zimpara:

> Perhaps you're right. But for the experienced. Good bit of kit! It's classic ATCs that scare the hell out of me! Deadly and won't climb belayed by one.

I've got bad news for you, if your belayer can't master the basics of safely using an ATC then they shouldn't be trusted with any belay device.
 zimpara 11 Jul 2016
In reply to timjones:

It's not belay basics. That device in particular is just too slick! It doesn't take much searching on here to find countless stories of people being pumped and scared to death abbing in on one.
7
 whenry 11 Jul 2016
In reply to zimpara:

> It's not belay basics. That device in particular is just too slick! It doesn't take much searching on here to find countless stories of people being pumped and scared to death abbing in on one.

WTF?! I agree that old-school ATCs are very slick to belay with on skinny ropes, but abseiling with one shouldn't be a problem - especially with a prussik.
 timjones 11 Jul 2016
In reply to zimpara:
> It's not belay basics. That device in particular is just too slick! It doesn't take much searching on here to find countless stories of people being pumped and scared to death abbing in on one.

Is that the device that is to blame or an inapropiate device for the rope that is being used?

Any dvice is going to struggle if you use a rope that is too skinny for it, even a Grigri.
Post edited at 10:25
Removed User 11 Jul 2016
In reply to SallyM:

Having used gri gri's to belay small kids i can say they are not the best bit of kit when it comes to lowering someone lightweight, particularly difficult with wet/thick ropes.
 summo 11 Jul 2016
In reply to timjones:

> Surely competent belayer should be able to hold a climber even with the lever held fully open?

I would agree, lever fully open requires good hand position etc.. just like an ATC. My kids aren't quite as old yet, but just getting them descending at the top requires me to almost feed slack up to them with the rope drag / friction slowing them anyway.

 rgold 11 Jul 2016
In reply to summo:

All the discussion about pulling back on the lever for lowering is not relevant to the accident, which occurred because to the "slack-pumping" technique of holding down the cam with the thumb of the brake hand in order to pump out slack for a clip. The actual thumb position is at the back of the lever, near the lever pivot point, which accounts for some of the confusion about the lever usage.

There are "right" and "wrong" ways to disengage the cam, the "right" way being the subject of Petzl instructional videos, for example see 6:25 of youtube.com/watch?v=i6EzpBaKYTs& . The most common "wrong" way is to drop the brake-side rope and wrap the brake hand around the device, compressing the cam, while pumping slack with the non-brake hand. In this method, braking is achieved by totally releasing the device (and possibly re-grabbing the brake strand). But when a sudden and unexpected impact happens, there is a pretty powerful reflex to grab even tighter, and with the "wrong" method this will guarantee a ground fall.

The ground fall scenario is still possible with the "right" method, but is much less likely, since the brake hand is wrapped around the rope, not the device, and only the thumb is on the cam. Even with the "right" method, if a lazy belayer just parks their thumb on the cam and pushes out rope with the non-brake hand, the chance of something like this happening is always there.

There are "people who talked to people" who claim Ashima's father was using the "wrong" method, see some of the comments in https://www.reddit.com/r/climbing/comments/4s34ni/ashima_back_at_stone_summ... . Whatever actually happened, she's very lucky to walk away with just bruises.
 Fraser 11 Jul 2016
In reply to rgold:

> ...the accident, which occurred because to the "slack-pumping" technique of holding down the cam with the thumb of the brake hand in order to pump out slack for a clip.

Is this now know for a fact? Apologies if it was on your second link, it was too long to trawl through!
Removed User 11 Jul 2016
In reply to zimpara:

> It's not belay basics. That device in particular is just too slick! It doesn't take much searching on here to find countless stories of people being pumped and scared to death abbing in on one.

Cobblers. Any device designed to be used with up to 11mm ropes are going to be slick with skinny ropes. I found this out by abbing into a sea cliff on a very firm sheathed 8.5mm Joanny rope and it was scarily fast. I can't remember what belay device I had but I'm sure it was prior to the ATC being available (I did use one when they came out, I thought it did what it says on the tin). Anyway, I used two krabs for the next one, problem solved. Honestly if you can't use an ATC safely then I'd wonder if you could use any device safely. Has anyone ever had a polite word with you about this?
 summo 11 Jul 2016
In reply to rgold:

Thanks I fully understand how they work, etc. Etc. I recall doing testing for the bmc technical committee roughly 15 years ago at PYB.

We effectively used, abused and misused it. Leaders falling off whilst yarding slack out, thumb minding, belayer standing too far away, not looking, lying down, different diameter and age ropes...

I am pretty aware of their pros and cons. Thanks.
 zimpara 11 Jul 2016
In reply to Removed User:

Haha no one has had a word with me about my unsafe belaying practices!
5
 rgold 11 Jul 2016
In reply to Fraser:

I'm not sure what constitutes a fact any more; generally speaking we seem to live in a post-factual world, most especially the US and the UK, judging by our current political situations.

I made it clear that the description came from "someone who talked to someone."

The quote is very close to the top of the thread:

> her father was belaying her with improper grigri technique. He kept his brake hand on the device and his thumb hovering over the release lever to feed slack. When Ashima fell, he instinctually grabbed the device, accidentally grasping the release lever, and causing her to fall to the ground.

When someone asked essentially the same question you're asking, the response was

> a good friend of mine and employee at Summit was watching when the incident happened. Today we personally saw her and many others using the same improper technique unfortunately.

Even without confirmation, this is the only scenario that makes sense. Her father is a very experienced Grigri user and would not have made the lever-hauling mistake.
 andrewmc 11 Jul 2016
In reply to Fraser:
(as already stated not relevant to the accident in question, but...)

The instructions are actually wonderfully vague on the subject of how much of the lowering control should be from the handle rather than pulling on the brake rope...

'8. Lowering a climber in a top-rope situation
The belayer gradually pulls on the release handle, without letting go of the brake side of the rope. The handle can assist in braking, but the rate of descent is controlled by the hand gripping the brake side of the rope. For better control of the descent, you can add friction with a braking carabiner such as the Petzl FREINO.'

For comparison, the standard caving descender is the Petzl Stop, which while being a completely different beast in how it works still has a (rubbish) handle and a brake rope. The standard advice there is that the handle should be _completely_ depressed and all control comes from the brake rope. All cavers seem agreed that if you feather the handle (as well as partly controlling the brake rope) you will definitely die, and failing that wear out the bobbins in super-quick time (cavers, unlike most climbers, actually wear out their descenders).

Personally I have decided this is silly and use it like a (rubbish) Grigri, but we will see if I do wear out the bobbins - or indeed die horribly

It is possible to use a Grigri and lower having depressed the handle fully, and I have even heard this advice given before. It may wear out the rope less quickly (which is not such an issue for climbers) but it is much harder work and it is probably silly, but the instructions do say that control of the speed of the lowering should be done from the hand on the brake rope...
 rgold 11 Jul 2016
In reply to summo:

> I am pretty aware of their pros and cons. Thanks.

The main point was that, as far as I can tell, you and the other posters were discussing the wrong scenario, but I apologize for bursting through doors already open for you. The post was meant to be generally informative, not just for you. Of course I have no idea what information you do or do not have, and so was unable to tailor a response to your specific requirements.
 FactorXXX 11 Jul 2016
In reply to andrewmcleod:

but the instructions do say that control of the speed of the lowering should be done from the hand on the brake rope...

I read them as saying that you use a balance of the two.
 FactorXXX 11 Jul 2016
In reply to rgold:

The main point was that, as far as I can tell, you and the other posters were discussing the wrong scenario

That discussion confused me a bit too...
 Fraser 11 Jul 2016
In reply to rgold:

> I made it clear that the description came from "someone who talked to someone."

It's kind of off-topic but it wasn't actually clear, that's why I asked the question. The cause you stated was in your first sentence, but the source you have now confirmed as being correct is 3 paragraphs further down. Even then, it's given as a possible explanation, and terms like 'claim' and 'whatever actually happened' made it seem like the cause was still uncertain.

> The quote is very close to the top of the thread:

Thanks for clarifying. I'll go back and reread the link. What I would really rather read is her father's account of what occurred. But as you said before, she's very lucky to have come away relatively unscathed.
 johncook 11 Jul 2016
In reply to zimpara:

I though petzl recommended using the gri gri in the same way as an atc, ie with the dead rope held down in the correct brake position. The lever/cam is a backup to correct atc belay practice, which is why it is called an assisted belay device, and not an auto belay device. Read their instructions. That means that the belayer should be able to belay with an atc type before they are let loose on a gri gri.
 Baron Weasel 11 Jul 2016
In reply to zimpara:

> It's not belay basics. That device in particular is just too slick! It doesn't take much searching on here to find countless stories of people being pumped and scared to death abbing in on one.

If you are worried about descending on a grigri or any other belay device then make an extra brake by clipping a crab to your leg loop, clipping the control end in and then you can hold it low for go and up for slow and stop. If this doesn't make sense practice in your living room first.
 Baron Weasel 11 Jul 2016
In reply to Fraser:

> Err, surely you don't! You use it like a reverse accelerator, gently pulling the lever back only as far as required to lower the leader and your other hand allows the dead rope to slip back through, grabbing it tight in emergency, same as other traditional belay devices.

> Edit: skip to 2:56 in this video where Sharma explains the lowering principle:


It's explained even better later on in the video by Steve McClure, and worth watching the whole thing to boot.
 zimpara 11 Jul 2016
In reply to Baron Weasel:

Nothing to do with a grigri, I was talking about classic atc's. Which is neither here nor there. Thanks for the suggestions
8
 Andy Say 12 Jul 2016
In reply to SallyM:

I do recall seeing someone being lowered at an incredible speed down Huddersfield Wall in the distant past. And as they hurtled downwards the belayer was shouting 'Slow Down!!!'

Honest.
 Justin T 12 Jul 2016
In reply to SallyM:

A timely reminder to anyone who belays with or is belayed by someone using a GriGri to watch Petzl's own video here, even if you have used one for years.

https://www.petzl.com/US/EN/Sport/Video--Belaying-with-a-GRIGRI

It covers how to use the GriGri and how to "thumb" safely to give out slack fast *without* compromising control in the event of a fall. It also runs through the very common ways in which the device is abused how this can precipitate an accident as a result. Many of which you will see at the crag done innocuously, often for years and by experienced climbers.

Accidents relating to GriGri use seem to always come down to device abuse. They seem to often come about because the belayer is not aware (or is aware but disregards the fact) that the way they consistently misuse the device can cause an accident in given circumstances (such as introducing a skinnier rope, a climber who sags onto the rope but doesn't fall, etc etc, a climber who falls when they're belaying incorrectly). The GriGri itself is not to blame, it is the same human folly that makes drive too fast around corners because we get away with it 99% of the time that makes us assume the grigri will make up for our faults when we abuse it, because 99% of the time it will.

Used correctly it's by far the best device for sport climbing, used correctly you can pay out slack easily and catch a fall no matter what.

Now, surely it's time for a tie-in knot debate?....
 Justin T 12 Jul 2016
In reply to Andy Say:

I've also seen that, girl berating boy for lowering too fast and hurting her hand. She was belaying...
 Phil Anderson 12 Jul 2016
In reply to johncook:
At last! The first answer that is in accordance with the Petzl instructions which state...

8. Lowering a climber in a top-rope situation
The belayer gradually pulls on the release handle, without letting go of the brake side of the
rope. The handle can assist in braking, but the rate of descent is controlled by the hand
gripping the brake side of the rope.
For better control of the descent, you can add friction with a braking carabiner such as the
Petzl FREINO.


Instructions are here: https://www.petzl.com/sfc/servlet.shepherd/version/download/068w0000001caY4...

For some reason few people seem to have actually read them, yet everyone seems to be an "expert".
Post edited at 13:44
 centurion05 12 Jul 2016
In reply to Phil Anderson:

the rate of descent is partially controlled by the brake hand, and everyone who uses this knows it. When using a normal belay plate you use two hands to lower the dead end, either hand over hand or slipping through your hands. Slipping through your hands creates heat and a possibility you will injure yourself therefore opening up the gri-gri fully then lowering with one hand doesn't really happen, it's a combination of the two factors.

On the note of the accident, I was climbing at UCC Dunkeld and was resting on a project, i then went for it and made a few clips before falling off. Whilst I was resting another climber told my belayer he was belaying incorrectly with the gri-gri and changed it to holding the dead rope and gri-gri shut with his right hand and feeding out the rope with his left. When I fell off he panicked and grabbed the dead rope and the gri-gri, thus dropping me. He realised the and let go before i decked. I ALWAYS teach and belay with my left hand on the gri-gri and right hand feeding the rope up or down. I have been told off by several climbing gym's but will not change my method because of the previous reason.

 La benya 12 Jul 2016
In reply to centurion05:

ive never understood how someone could 'panic' and hold the cam down? if youre following the method properly, only your thumb is on the cam, when someone falls, the whole thing (and your hips) are jerked upwards, moving away from your thumb. i also think it would be really difficult to have enough strength in your thumb to hold the cam down against the force of the falling climber.
 andrewmc 12 Jul 2016
In reply to centurion05:

Hang on - are you saying that you always use the technique explicitly forbidden by Petzl, because of the accidents it has caused, and is implicated in this particular case? (using the left hand on the grigri)? And you _teach_ people this? (if so, please stop). And your reasoning is that your belayer (who was also belaying incorrectly) was told they were belaying incorrectly, and subsequently (due to their inexperience at belaying correctly) belayed in a different, incorrect fashion that resulted in your near miss?

Have you considered:
a) learning to use your device properly,
b) ensuring your belayers know how to use the device properly,
c) when teaching people how to use a device, teaching them how to use it properly? (I wonder if this comes into play with point b - did you teach the belayer who nearly dropped you?)

The funny thing is that, generally speaking, grigris work fine if you leave them alone (don't grab either the device, or grab either rope too tightly) :P
 rgold 12 Jul 2016
In reply to mark_wellin:

> I've never understood how someone could 'panic' and hold the cam down? if youre following the method properly, only your thumb is on the cam, when someone falls, the whole thing (and your hips) are jerked upwards, moving away from your thumb. i also think it would be really difficult to have enough strength in your thumb to hold the cam down against the force of the falling climber.

If only your thumb is on the cam as in the approved Petzl method, then all should be well almost of the time, although parking your thumb on the cam still seems to be a bad idea. The problem comes with improper use, which involves wrapping one hand completely around the device and squeezing the cam with the thumb. If you do this and there is a sudden unexpected impact, the natural reaction to "hold tight" keeps the cam depressed and disables braking. With the Petzl method, the "hold tight" reaction has the much more fortuitous effect of clamping down on the brake strand.
Andy Gamisou 12 Jul 2016
In reply to mark_wellin:

> ive never understood how someone could 'panic' and hold the cam down?

Having been dropped in exactly these circumstances, I really couldn't give a stuff regarding your understanding, or lack of.

4
 La benya 12 Jul 2016
In reply to Willi Crater:

huh? You got dropped, and he was following the correct method of use? Calling bullshit on that mate
 Phil Anderson 13 Jul 2016
In reply to centurion05:

Good for you. Why are you telling me?
 Fraser 13 Jul 2016
In reply to centurion05:

> I ALWAYS teach and belay with my left hand on the gri-gri and right hand feeding the rope up or down. I have been told off by several climbing gym's but will not change my method because of the previous reason.

I don't follow the method you've described. How do you pay out rope without removing your right hand from the dead end? Or does your left hand still somehow hold the dead end?

 La benya 13 Jul 2016
In reply to Fraser:

Nope, you have to completely let go of the dead end to follow this old style (and terrible) method.
 centurion05 13 Jul 2016
In reply to andrewmcleod:

Thanks for your reply andrewmacleod

> Have you considered:

> a) learning to use your device properly,

> b) ensuring your belayers know how to use the device properly,

> c) when teaching people how to use a device, teaching them how to use it properly? (I wonder if this comes into play with point b - did you teach the belayer who nearly dropped you?)

> The funny thing is that, generally speaking, grigris work fine if you leave them alone (don't grab either the device, or grab either rope too tightly) :P

a) i have used a gri-gri for over ten years and probably know how to use it better than you.

b) my belayer knew how to use the gri-gri as i taught him, the person on the ground told him to change how he was belaying, causing him to drop me.

c) I teach people how to use equipment properly yes.
9
Removed User 13 Jul 2016
In reply to centurion05:

So you say you use your equipment properly. How do you control dead rope if you hold grigri shut with your left hand and feed out rope with your right? I used to do that, too, but there was no way I could control dead rope. The only safe method is right thumb on the cam while still controling dead rope and feeding out the rope with your left hand. It took me some time to get used to it, though
 centurion05 13 Jul 2016
In reply to Removed UserZebdi:

The method you describe is the recommended method, but it is also the method my belayer dropped me doing. He was holding the dead rope, and the cam shut and feeding out the rope with his left hand. I then fell off and he grabbed the dead rope, and the gri-gri at the same time, hence i fell.
2
 Fraser 13 Jul 2016
In reply to centurion05:
No, surely what you mean is your belayer *tried* to use the correct method but failed to do so, resulting in your falling? I don't understand why you don't just swap hands thereby allowing you to hold the dead end as well as feed out rope. To me, it's a complete no-brainer.

Edit: to clarify my comment, you stated your belayer "was holding the dead rope, then..... grabbed the dead rope". How does that work? He must have let go, therefore not used the correct, recommended method.
Post edited at 17:13
 johncook 13 Jul 2016
In reply to centurion05:

You may need a new belayer who has practised the correct technique and can use it without the panic response.
As per manufacturers instructions. They give out these instructions for a reason and make videos and put stuff online for a reason. They tend to have a good working knowledge of their gear.
 centurion05 14 Jul 2016
In reply to Fraser:

Holding the dead rope in your right hand and holding the lever shut at the same time to allow you to feed the rope out. Then when I fell his initial instinct was to grab the dead rope, he did so resulting in him grabbing the gri-gri also.

It's a mistake that wouldn't have happened if he was holding it shut with his left hand. I understand what petzl have written and I have read it and tried to use the methods. The way I belay has worked for me for years and I'll stick to it.

Not everyone holds the steering wheel with two hands and pushes up with one hand and down with the other to turn a corner. I belay differently with a gri-gri and have done for years. I will also continue to show people my thoughts on why I belay like this and for what reasons.
5
 La benya 14 Jul 2016
In reply to centurion05:

That's still incorrect. You are meant to just use your thumb on the end of the cam, when a panic situation arises, a natural grasp of the dead rope will just remove the thumb tip from the cam. Alternatively, don't touch the cam at all and walk backwards and forwards to give/ take slack.
I find your reasoning of 'I've done it wrong for years and never killed anyone' worrying.
 La benya 14 Jul 2016
In reply to centurion05:

I understand that you had a bad experience with someone attempting a different method to yours. But they simply weren't using the 'correct' method, so preaching against using the correct method for that reason alone is silly. Sticking with a method that has been proved time and time again to be dangerous and has resulted in injury is mental. The correct method is safe, there have been no accidents where it has be done properly. Any system is dangerous if you do it wrong.

It's not like it's complicated- don't leave your thumb on the cam...
 jsmcfarland 14 Jul 2016
In reply to mark_wellin:

What I don't understand is how someone can close the cam with just their thumb. They must have been trying pretty bloody hard, as the whole point of using the thumb is that the cam will engage!?
 La benya 14 Jul 2016
In reply to jsmcfarland:

thats what i said! and them some angry chap came along and said that someone had dropped him doing it so my lack of understanding was irrelevant.
 Fraser 14 Jul 2016
In reply to centurion05:

Fair dos - it's your call. But if your belayer had been holding the dead rope with his right hand all along - as he would & should have been doing - he couldn't have dropped you. That's all I'm saying. Your fall was completely due to pilot error, rather than his using the Gri-Gri in the recommended manner.
 andrewmc 14 Jul 2016
In reply to centurion05:

> b) my belayer knew how to use the gri-gri as i taught him, the person on the ground told him to change how he was belaying, causing him to drop me.

So yes, you taught your belayer to use an incorrect method, and subsequently they dropped you. Given how rarely these accidents happen (although they do happen), doesn't that make you stop and think for a minute? :P

I know that they didn't drop you using your incorrect method, they dropped you incorrectly trying to use the correct method having learned to avoid incorrectly use the incorrectly method you taught.

But this would NEVER have happened if you had taught your belayer to do it correctly in the first place. They would never have grabbed the device if they had learned the correct method which involves never holding the device. Petzl don't just make this stuff up, you know - they are saying this because of the accidents that have happened as a result of people - including probably the one that started this thread.
 andrewmc 14 Jul 2016
In reply to mark_wellin:
> I find your reasoning of 'I've done it wrong for years and never killed anyone' worrying.

'apart from that one time my belayer, who I taught to also do it wrong, dropped me and nearly killed me' :P
Post edited at 16:42
 centurion05 15 Jul 2016
In reply to andrewmcleod:

> 'apart from that one time my belayer, who I taught to also do it wrong, dropped me and nearly killed me' :P

You mean to say 'the one time I taught me belayer how to use the method I've used for years and never had any accidents and then was told to belay using a different method and dropped me'

 Fraser 16 Jul 2016
In reply to centurion05:

But he didn't use the correct method this other person told him to, he ballsed it up and *that's* why he dropped you! You can't blame the method for your partner's incompetence.
 flash13 16 Jul 2016
In reply to Fraser:

What you cant take into account is someones ability to be completely obnoxious and not ever believe they are wrong.
He was actively climbing and not watching his belayer so how could he possibly know what technique his belayer was using?
Of course centurion knows better...

But i'm with you

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