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Since stopping indoor climbing, due to a lack of access to climbing walls, I've gone from a solid VS leader who struggled on anything harder and regularly fell off/rested on gear at HVS, to leading E1 regularly and the occasional E2.
The improvement without any sort of finger strength training begs the question of how important indoor training actually is, or whether we'd all be better off climbing real rock and learning how to use our feet properly!
Something that's noticable watching friends that climb loads on plastic blobs, yet seldom climb actual rock, is how hard they pull on every hold, as if they're trying to rip it off the cliff. Perhaps constant indoor bouldering conditions climbers to overgrip?
Or is the mental side of trad climbing (on routes hard enough that a fall is likely) such a big part of it that if a climbers headgame is strong it can carry them through situations where a physically superior climber might panic?
The improvement without any sort of finger strength training begs the question of how important indoor training actually is, or whether we'd all be better off climbing real rock and learning how to use our feet properly!
Something that's noticable watching friends that climb loads on plastic blobs, yet seldom climb actual rock, is how hard they pull on every hold, as if they're trying to rip it off the cliff. Perhaps constant indoor bouldering conditions climbers to overgrip?
Or is the mental side of trad climbing (on routes hard enough that a fall is likely) such a big part of it that if a climbers headgame is strong it can carry them through situations where a physically superior climber might panic?
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In reply to JackM92:
Good question. Que some long answers!
Rock is very different to plastic, like you include in your OP.
It reasons then, that spending less time on plastic is going to mean you spend more time on rock, and get specifically better.
And if you ONLY ever climbed plastic. Even 6b-6c plastic. You're going to stuggle even getting off the ground on most rock routes.
Good question. Que some long answers!
Rock is very different to plastic, like you include in your OP.
It reasons then, that spending less time on plastic is going to mean you spend more time on rock, and get specifically better.
And if you ONLY ever climbed plastic. Even 6b-6c plastic. You're going to stuggle even getting off the ground on most rock routes.
Post edited at 19:04
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In reply to JackM92:
If you climb outdoors regularly you will more than likely keep improving until you reach the peak of what you can accomplish without targeted training. I would say that is a fairly uncontroversial statement. Plenty of people on here who have made massive gains climbing indoors and then applied it outdoors.
I did my first trad lead (HS) in September 2013 and this may I did my first E5, and I'm definitely an indoor climber. Because I record my climbing indoors I can see I have done something like 3000ish problems/routes between sept 13 and recently, and in that time 350 trad routes, so go figure.
In summary: If you have a good head then training indoors is the way to go to bring the fitness/strength/power up, if your head is your limiting factor then climbing indoors isn't going to get you the most gains until you address that.
If you climb outdoors regularly you will more than likely keep improving until you reach the peak of what you can accomplish without targeted training. I would say that is a fairly uncontroversial statement. Plenty of people on here who have made massive gains climbing indoors and then applied it outdoors.
I did my first trad lead (HS) in September 2013 and this may I did my first E5, and I'm definitely an indoor climber. Because I record my climbing indoors I can see I have done something like 3000ish problems/routes between sept 13 and recently, and in that time 350 trad routes, so go figure.
In summary: If you have a good head then training indoors is the way to go to bring the fitness/strength/power up, if your head is your limiting factor then climbing indoors isn't going to get you the most gains until you address that.
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In reply to JackM92:
Your profile says you've only been climbing 3 years so my guess is:
1 - you're naturally getting stronger, having built up climbing specific strength
2 - you're now climbing more frequently than before
3 - you weren't trying that hard before
4 - you weren't actually 'training', either before or now.
But we'll done on the progress thus far.
Climbing indoors makes you better at climbing outdoors and the same for climbing outdoors. There is some natural crossover between the two.
Your profile says you've only been climbing 3 years so my guess is:
1 - you're naturally getting stronger, having built up climbing specific strength
2 - you're now climbing more frequently than before
3 - you weren't trying that hard before
4 - you weren't actually 'training', either before or now.
But we'll done on the progress thus far.
Climbing indoors makes you better at climbing outdoors and the same for climbing outdoors. There is some natural crossover between the two.
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In reply to Fraser:
Do you know where the cross over point is?
Ok, how about this.
If you could move house to either, right next to a great climbing wall, or right next to a good little local crag, which would you choose, and who would be able to climb rock /plastic best? Same personal attributes hypothetically.
Do you know where the cross over point is?
Ok, how about this.
If you could move house to either, right next to a great climbing wall, or right next to a good little local crag, which would you choose, and who would be able to climb rock /plastic best? Same personal attributes hypothetically.
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In reply to JackM92:
Well, most people climb indoors as they can't get outdoors midweek. In which case indoors is better than nothing. In addition, maybe 5% of people at the wall are "training", most are just climbing, in which case they won't necessarily be making the gains they "could" do if they did train.
Obviously, as the lower end of the spectrum grade and experience wise the more you climb outside, the better you'll get as you'll improve specific skills required to actually climb real rock whilst getting some physical benefit. As you get better/more experienced, what will hold you back more is physical attributes that are perfectly well trained indoors.
Well, most people climb indoors as they can't get outdoors midweek. In which case indoors is better than nothing. In addition, maybe 5% of people at the wall are "training", most are just climbing, in which case they won't necessarily be making the gains they "could" do if they did train.
Obviously, as the lower end of the spectrum grade and experience wise the more you climb outside, the better you'll get as you'll improve specific skills required to actually climb real rock whilst getting some physical benefit. As you get better/more experienced, what will hold you back more is physical attributes that are perfectly well trained indoors.
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In reply to zimpara
Really? I'd say most reasonably sporty people could get up a VS/HVS on second on their first time out.
> And if you ONLY ever climbed plastic. Even 6b-6c plastic. You're going to stuggle even getting off the ground on most rock routes.
Really? I'd say most reasonably sporty people could get up a VS/HVS on second on their first time out.
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In reply to JackM92:
Obviously we'd all be better off climbing on real rock all the time! But at the top end, I guess that might want to be supplemented by some isolated strength training.
It's not just the mental side. Trad climbing is very physical because you have to hang on to place the gear. Also, because you're thinking about the gear and the consequences of falling, you tend to climb in a much more static, reversible, risk-averse style, which is much more strenuous, takes longer and requires a lot more stamina than just throwing yourself up the route hoping that the holds will appear.
Trad climbing requires a lot more skill, and a lot more physical effort for every meter climbed than indoors. If you don't practice those skills, and build up that stamina, then you'll be crap, so indoors isn't ideal training. Nowhere near as good as climbing more on rock, but it's definitely better than nowt!
> The improvement without any sort of finger strength training begs the question of how important indoor training actually is, or whether we'd all be better off climbing real rock and learning how to use our feet properly!
Obviously we'd all be better off climbing on real rock all the time! But at the top end, I guess that might want to be supplemented by some isolated strength training.
> Or is the mental side of trad climbing (on routes hard enough that a fall is likely) such a big part of it that if a climbers headgame is strong it can carry them through situations where a physically superior climber might panic?
It's not just the mental side. Trad climbing is very physical because you have to hang on to place the gear. Also, because you're thinking about the gear and the consequences of falling, you tend to climb in a much more static, reversible, risk-averse style, which is much more strenuous, takes longer and requires a lot more stamina than just throwing yourself up the route hoping that the holds will appear.
Trad climbing requires a lot more skill, and a lot more physical effort for every meter climbed than indoors. If you don't practice those skills, and build up that stamina, then you'll be crap, so indoors isn't ideal training. Nowhere near as good as climbing more on rock, but it's definitely better than nowt!
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In reply to JackM92:
Low, he who tryeth a thing becomes better at it the more he tryeth! Pray tell where he came across such arcane knowledge!?
Low, he who tryeth a thing becomes better at it the more he tryeth! Pray tell where he came across such arcane knowledge!?
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In reply to jsmcfarland:
Agree with that completely. The level of climbing at E1/E2 isn't all that physical, and I imagine that at anything much harder than that the ability to pull harder comes in useful!
The point I was trying to make is that too much of any one climbing discipline may ingrain inefficient habits in some climbers. Clearly if you're combining lots of outdoor climbing with targeted indoor training this isn't an issue, but I've met so many climbers who blindly think they need to get stronger to improve, when in reality if they just committed on lead they'd cruise up routes they previously thought impossible for themselves.
Agree with that completely. The level of climbing at E1/E2 isn't all that physical, and I imagine that at anything much harder than that the ability to pull harder comes in useful!
The point I was trying to make is that too much of any one climbing discipline may ingrain inefficient habits in some climbers. Clearly if you're combining lots of outdoor climbing with targeted indoor training this isn't an issue, but I've met so many climbers who blindly think they need to get stronger to improve, when in reality if they just committed on lead they'd cruise up routes they previously thought impossible for themselves.
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In reply to JackM92:
I thought Hazel Findlay had an interesting answer to this in a recent Q&A she did on the Mountain Project forum. Obviously she is only one example (and an exceptional one at that) but, anyway, here are her thoughts on training:
"This is an interesting question for me right now because I am a week into my first ever training program. Already I am beginning to realise the sacrifices structured training brings. The biggest sacrifice for me is not being outside on the rock enough.
It's funny that people assume that I must have trained to climb the routes I've climbed. I personally think that way too much emphasis is placed on physical training and not enough placed on being an expert on the rock (which can only be achieved by thousands of hours on different rock types), and on mental training which is most climber's limiting factor (for both enjoyment and performance).
I have climbed 8c, freed El Cap and climbed E9 not just without structured training but without any form of training at all. In fact the year I climbed 8c, I hadn't climbed indoors at all that year. However I understand that I could have climbed a lot harder had I trained. But.. at what price? The price of climbing less of the cool adventurous stuff that I enjoy so much. You only have so many hours in a day.
I am also lucky enough to go on endless climbing trips and I understand the benefit of indoor climbing facilities for the normal working person. However a lot of gym-cultures value hanging off a finger board more than setting technically demanding problems that encourage people to learn the complex technique of moving well against gravity.
So you ask me why train now? I'm training now because I have lost a lot of strength and fitness in the two years I've had off from climbing (shoulder injury and op) and I'm eager to get it back as quick as possible. I have also realised that my shoulder does better in controlled environments such as climbing gyms, versus going amuerte on routes outside where my shoulder goes in to vulnerable positions and I get so psyched I don't have the will power to stop. So my current project is to prioritise training over climbing (which I've never done before) for a few months and then see what I can do on the rock."
I thought Hazel Findlay had an interesting answer to this in a recent Q&A she did on the Mountain Project forum. Obviously she is only one example (and an exceptional one at that) but, anyway, here are her thoughts on training:
"This is an interesting question for me right now because I am a week into my first ever training program. Already I am beginning to realise the sacrifices structured training brings. The biggest sacrifice for me is not being outside on the rock enough.
It's funny that people assume that I must have trained to climb the routes I've climbed. I personally think that way too much emphasis is placed on physical training and not enough placed on being an expert on the rock (which can only be achieved by thousands of hours on different rock types), and on mental training which is most climber's limiting factor (for both enjoyment and performance).
I have climbed 8c, freed El Cap and climbed E9 not just without structured training but without any form of training at all. In fact the year I climbed 8c, I hadn't climbed indoors at all that year. However I understand that I could have climbed a lot harder had I trained. But.. at what price? The price of climbing less of the cool adventurous stuff that I enjoy so much. You only have so many hours in a day.
I am also lucky enough to go on endless climbing trips and I understand the benefit of indoor climbing facilities for the normal working person. However a lot of gym-cultures value hanging off a finger board more than setting technically demanding problems that encourage people to learn the complex technique of moving well against gravity.
So you ask me why train now? I'm training now because I have lost a lot of strength and fitness in the two years I've had off from climbing (shoulder injury and op) and I'm eager to get it back as quick as possible. I have also realised that my shoulder does better in controlled environments such as climbing gyms, versus going amuerte on routes outside where my shoulder goes in to vulnerable positions and I get so psyched I don't have the will power to stop. So my current project is to prioritise training over climbing (which I've never done before) for a few months and then see what I can do on the rock."
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In reply to SallyM:
Fantastic!
Climbing is training in effect then. She has trained. Just not finger boarded
Fantastic!
Climbing is training in effect then. She has trained. Just not finger boarded
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In reply to zimpara:
Agreed.
There is also the life factor. Some people will do anything to climb, climbing for them is more meaningful than anything else. For the rest of us, raising kids, holding down a job, saving for a house, looking after older family members forces us to do what we can with the time given to us around those priorities.
You will hit a plateau, when is different for all of us, you can either solve the issue by doing more of what you are doing or go down the systematic route of training.
The people who hold down full time jobs and demanding lives yet still train and climb hard are the ones to be truly inspired by.
Agreed.
There is also the life factor. Some people will do anything to climb, climbing for them is more meaningful than anything else. For the rest of us, raising kids, holding down a job, saving for a house, looking after older family members forces us to do what we can with the time given to us around those priorities.
You will hit a plateau, when is different for all of us, you can either solve the issue by doing more of what you are doing or go down the systematic route of training.
The people who hold down full time jobs and demanding lives yet still train and climb hard are the ones to be truly inspired by.
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In reply to zimpara:
Not necessarily but the proportions might change ie you're more attuned to the real stuff. And maybe walls don't make an awful lot of difference up to a certain point/type of clumbing eg you can get up a lot of grit without having much finger strength but wth the 'right' approach.
> Good question. Que some long answers!
> Rock is very different to plastic, like you include in your OP.
> It reasons then, that spending less time on plastic is going to mean you spend more time on rock, and get specifically better.
Not necessarily but the proportions might change ie you're more attuned to the real stuff. And maybe walls don't make an awful lot of difference up to a certain point/type of clumbing eg you can get up a lot of grit without having much finger strength but wth the 'right' approach.
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In reply to JackM92:
It's simple. Your technique for climbing trad improved.
Indoor climbing isn't going to help you fiddle in nuts is it? You've gone from a very low base (vs is basically hard walking) to something that resembles technical rock climbing. I should imagine eventually you will hit a wall where your technique is fine and it then becomes strength and or conditioning holding you back where indoors will be of benefit. Around e3 6b/c sport seems to be the area.
It's simple. Your technique for climbing trad improved.
Indoor climbing isn't going to help you fiddle in nuts is it? You've gone from a very low base (vs is basically hard walking) to something that resembles technical rock climbing. I should imagine eventually you will hit a wall where your technique is fine and it then becomes strength and or conditioning holding you back where indoors will be of benefit. Around e3 6b/c sport seems to be the area.
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In reply to JackM92:
If I go to the wall and just climb how does my body know that I'm not training?
If I go to the wall and just climb how does my body know that I'm not training?
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In reply to JackM92:
You can get to a certain level just climbing outdoors. After all, that's what everyone used to do, and there are some very hard climbs around to testify to just how good you can get. What level is attainable with just outdoor climbing depends on a host of factors, including frequency, variation in venues, and all the subtle aspects of natural ability.
But the point is that everyone will reach a point at which specific training is probably the only thing that will enable them to progress, and in particular training offers most of us average punters the chance to climb better than we would have been able to otherwise, as a supplement to but not a substitute for the outdoor experience.
That said, there are probably many ways to make training a waste of time, which is completely different than claiming that it is intrinsically so. In particular, I think certain beginners focus on strength training because their lack of technique makes them feel weak, and of course this just makes them a stronger bad climber.
It should hardly be necessary to list all the potential advantages to training in a highly controlled easily accessible environment, and one shouldn't ignore the fact that, in addition to physical gains, one can learn a lot about overhanging technique in a gym. The downside to plastic is certainly footwork on climbs that are not severely overhanging; here I think only real rock will afford to experiences required to progress, and the gym may actually contribute to habits that will have to be unlearned.
You can get to a certain level just climbing outdoors. After all, that's what everyone used to do, and there are some very hard climbs around to testify to just how good you can get. What level is attainable with just outdoor climbing depends on a host of factors, including frequency, variation in venues, and all the subtle aspects of natural ability.
But the point is that everyone will reach a point at which specific training is probably the only thing that will enable them to progress, and in particular training offers most of us average punters the chance to climb better than we would have been able to otherwise, as a supplement to but not a substitute for the outdoor experience.
That said, there are probably many ways to make training a waste of time, which is completely different than claiming that it is intrinsically so. In particular, I think certain beginners focus on strength training because their lack of technique makes them feel weak, and of course this just makes them a stronger bad climber.
It should hardly be necessary to list all the potential advantages to training in a highly controlled easily accessible environment, and one shouldn't ignore the fact that, in addition to physical gains, one can learn a lot about overhanging technique in a gym. The downside to plastic is certainly footwork on climbs that are not severely overhanging; here I think only real rock will afford to experiences required to progress, and the gym may actually contribute to habits that will have to be unlearned.
Post edited at 16:40
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In reply to mark_wellin:
In my opinion, that is a careless exaggeration, which could come across as a sneer at those operating in the lower grades. VS is definitely climbing, not in any sense a form of walking; and whether or not it is "a very low base" depends on perspective. For some people, climbing VS is a goal achieved over years.
> a very low base (vs is basically hard walking)
In my opinion, that is a careless exaggeration, which could come across as a sneer at those operating in the lower grades. VS is definitely climbing, not in any sense a form of walking; and whether or not it is "a very low base" depends on perspective. For some people, climbing VS is a goal achieved over years.
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In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):
'Training' is stimulating your body in a particular fashion, following the principles of specificity, overload, rest, adaptation and reversibility.
If you haven't trained before, you will get most of this by just climbing - up to a point. Already trained individuals will most likely need to follow a more structured approach.
Personally, I have made my most significant trad climbing gains by increasing my mileage, using grades as a guide to progression. I don't think you can ever be 'too strong', but for people operating below, say, E4 ish, it's not going to be a limiting factor.
'Training' is stimulating your body in a particular fashion, following the principles of specificity, overload, rest, adaptation and reversibility.
If you haven't trained before, you will get most of this by just climbing - up to a point. Already trained individuals will most likely need to follow a more structured approach.
Personally, I have made my most significant trad climbing gains by increasing my mileage, using grades as a guide to progression. I don't think you can ever be 'too strong', but for people operating below, say, E4 ish, it's not going to be a limiting factor.
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In reply to bpmclimb:
Well said, even Hazel Findlay has said that there are no 'Easy' grades or 'Hard' grades, just high ones and low ones.
If anyone gets a bit full of themselves over their latest E3 or whatever, worth remembering that no matter how hard you climb, Johnny Dawes can do it without using his hands.
> In my opinion, that is a careless exaggeration, which could come across as a sneer at those operating in the lower grades.
Well said, even Hazel Findlay has said that there are no 'Easy' grades or 'Hard' grades, just high ones and low ones.
If anyone gets a bit full of themselves over their latest E3 or whatever, worth remembering that no matter how hard you climb, Johnny Dawes can do it without using his hands.
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In reply to bpmclimb:
I get what you're saying but by any measure grading is objective (or tries to be) so vs, being at the beginning of the system is indeed low, no matter what your perspective.
As for it being people's goals, again I understand and I agree, but that doesn't detract from the fact that almost any physically fit person is capable of climbing a vs. There is nothing technically or physically hard enough to stop someone with a working body from getting to the top. Mental attitude is by far and away the main sticking point at that grade and as we are talking about how training indoors can affect progress, trad mentality seems unimportant.
And just to clarify, definitely isn't a sneer at low grade operators. People get enjoyment from all sorts of different things, but if you are operating at VS, it doesn't do you any favours to be under the illusion that your physical attributes are holding you back. When most of the time that's simply not your case.
I get what you're saying but by any measure grading is objective (or tries to be) so vs, being at the beginning of the system is indeed low, no matter what your perspective.
As for it being people's goals, again I understand and I agree, but that doesn't detract from the fact that almost any physically fit person is capable of climbing a vs. There is nothing technically or physically hard enough to stop someone with a working body from getting to the top. Mental attitude is by far and away the main sticking point at that grade and as we are talking about how training indoors can affect progress, trad mentality seems unimportant.
And just to clarify, definitely isn't a sneer at low grade operators. People get enjoyment from all sorts of different things, but if you are operating at VS, it doesn't do you any favours to be under the illusion that your physical attributes are holding you back. When most of the time that's simply not your case.
Post edited at 10:04
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In reply to JackM92:
Absolutely not a waste if done well, however many people's training is not actually training but just playing on routes.
Examples of training benefits...
Falling- if you are unhappy falling on closely bolted indoor routes, how could you possibly be OK falling on spaced bolts or gear?
Technique training - technique totally changes once you start redpointing indoors, just paying attention to breathing, accurate footwork when pumped, optimal clipping stance, the ability to fight to the end on a route. All these things can be trained indoors and will not generally magically appear when you decide you want your first E2 or 6c or whatever the grade.
This is only mental so far, there are a million physical things to actually make you a better climber physically as well.
E.g. stamina - your ability to recover both on and off the route, simply spending 15 min continuously on the wall will improve massivelly your ability to hang around on holds fiddling gear and recovering afterwarda or shaking out on those jugs before you committ for a crux on a sport route.
Of course there is finger strength which would be a revelation once past about f7a and how simple training can have massive effects...
Then again I might also be biased as I really enjoy the coffee and cake indoors.
Absolutely not a waste if done well, however many people's training is not actually training but just playing on routes.
Examples of training benefits...
Falling- if you are unhappy falling on closely bolted indoor routes, how could you possibly be OK falling on spaced bolts or gear?
Technique training - technique totally changes once you start redpointing indoors, just paying attention to breathing, accurate footwork when pumped, optimal clipping stance, the ability to fight to the end on a route. All these things can be trained indoors and will not generally magically appear when you decide you want your first E2 or 6c or whatever the grade.
This is only mental so far, there are a million physical things to actually make you a better climber physically as well.
E.g. stamina - your ability to recover both on and off the route, simply spending 15 min continuously on the wall will improve massivelly your ability to hang around on holds fiddling gear and recovering afterwarda or shaking out on those jugs before you committ for a crux on a sport route.
Of course there is finger strength which would be a revelation once past about f7a and how simple training can have massive effects...
Then again I might also be biased as I really enjoy the coffee and cake indoors.
Post edited at 11:05
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In reply to galpinos:
I wouldn't go as far as Zimpara iin saying they wouldn't get off the floor but it depends on the route really, if it's a VS/HVS slab the outdoor novice is likely to be lacking the footwork, if it's a big hand jamming crack then they are likely to fail on jamming.
The thing I've noticed with outdoor novice friends is just lack of route reading skills.
> In reply to zimpara
> Really? I'd say most reasonably sporty people could get up a VS/HVS on second on their first time out.
I wouldn't go as far as Zimpara iin saying they wouldn't get off the floor but it depends on the route really, if it's a VS/HVS slab the outdoor novice is likely to be lacking the footwork, if it's a big hand jamming crack then they are likely to fail on jamming.
The thing I've noticed with outdoor novice friends is just lack of route reading skills.
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In reply to mark_wellin:
Sounded like a sneer to me, however you explain it away afterwards. Just imagine yourself having climbed for several years up to HS, and now excited finally to be breaking into the VS grade; then hearing someone suggest that VS is merely difficult walking. How is that not a put-down?
VS is not even close to being at the beginning of the system. There are quite a few grade bands below that, and there are lots of climbers who operate at them. One can only assume that, according to you, those grades somehow don't count.
Sounded like a sneer to me, however you explain it away afterwards. Just imagine yourself having climbed for several years up to HS, and now excited finally to be breaking into the VS grade; then hearing someone suggest that VS is merely difficult walking. How is that not a put-down?
VS is not even close to being at the beginning of the system. There are quite a few grade bands below that, and there are lots of climbers who operate at them. One can only assume that, according to you, those grades somehow don't count.
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In reply to bpmclimb:
It's definitely near the beginning.
You're assumption is that a hs/vs climber would be unnaware that they are climbing relatively easy stuff in the grand scheme of things and would be bothered by that fact...?
I'm well aware that the level I climb isn't impressive but I still get enjoyment out of it. It doesn't bother me when someone climbs 8b and tells me proper hard climbing starts at 8a.
You need to chill, your feelings are too easily hurt for being on the Internet.
It's definitely near the beginning.
You're assumption is that a hs/vs climber would be unnaware that they are climbing relatively easy stuff in the grand scheme of things and would be bothered by that fact...?
I'm well aware that the level I climb isn't impressive but I still get enjoyment out of it. It doesn't bother me when someone climbs 8b and tells me proper hard climbing starts at 8a.
You need to chill, your feelings are too easily hurt for being on the Internet.
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In reply to mark_wellin:
(Walking), Easy, Mod, Vdiff, S, VS, HVS, E1, E2, E3, E4.
It appears you are talking bollocks - VS has four full grades below it and is half way to E4 in the grading system.
Bollocks again. Almost anyone would struggle to get up a VS until they have developed reasonable technique.
> VS, being at the beginning of the system is indeed low, no matter what your perspective.
(Walking), Easy, Mod, Vdiff, S, VS, HVS, E1, E2, E3, E4.
It appears you are talking bollocks - VS has four full grades below it and is half way to E4 in the grading system.
> The fact that almost any physically fit person is capable of climbing a vs. There is nothing technically or physically hard enough to stop someone with a working body from getting to the top.
Bollocks again. Almost anyone would struggle to get up a VS until they have developed reasonable technique.
Post edited at 12:36
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In reply to Robert Durran:
I disagree.
And the system goes up to e11 at least. Why did you stop at e4? To prove an invalid point?
I disagree.
And the system goes up to e11 at least. Why did you stop at e4? To prove an invalid point?
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In reply to Robert Durran:
AND... Like I said earlier, technically and physically there is nothing stopping almost anyone doing vs. It's the mental aspect that would hinder. That's different to saying anyone can do vs.
AND... Like I said earlier, technically and physically there is nothing stopping almost anyone doing vs. It's the mental aspect that would hinder. That's different to saying anyone can do vs.
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In reply to mark_wellin:
That's because I am right and you are wrong.
To show that VS is half way up to a pretty respectable grade.
So VS is a third of the way up to E9, which, I think, is the hardest grade actually achieved (ie onsighted).
> I disagree.
That's because I am right and you are wrong.
> And the system goes up to E11 at least. Why did you stop at E4? To prove an invalid point?
To show that VS is half way up to a pretty respectable grade.
So VS is a third of the way up to E9, which, I think, is the hardest grade actually achieved (ie onsighted).
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In reply to mark_wellin:
Sorry, but beginners, however physically strong, don't just walk (or even struggle) up VS's - they simply don't have the technique.
> AND... Like I said earlier, technically and physically there is nothing stopping almost anyone doing vs.
Sorry, but beginners, however physically strong, don't just walk (or even struggle) up VS's - they simply don't have the technique.
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In reply to Robert Durran:
9a has been on sighted so respectable sport grades start at what? 7c in your opinion?
You're arguing a moot point mate, read what I said again. Vs. Near start of system. Physically able. Should do. Mental holding back. Indoor training no good. Nut technique no help. Around e3 training help.
9a has been on sighted so respectable sport grades start at what? 7c in your opinion?
You're arguing a moot point mate, read what I said again. Vs. Near start of system. Physically able. Should do. Mental holding back. Indoor training no good. Nut technique no help. Around e3 training help.
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In reply to mark_wellin:
I have read it again - it's bollocks; read my last post. Beginners, even ones with big arms, struggle on pretty much the easiest indoor routes which are basically jug ladders, let alone on real VS's requiring a bit of finesse - it's lack of technique.
> Read what I said again. Vs. Near start of system. Physically able. Should do. Mental holding back. Indoor training no good. Nut technique no help. Around e3 training help.
I have read it again - it's bollocks; read my last post. Beginners, even ones with big arms, struggle on pretty much the easiest indoor routes which are basically jug ladders, let alone on real VS's requiring a bit of finesse - it's lack of technique.
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In reply to mark_wellin:
>vs is basically hard walking
That's an interesting comment from someone who (according to your profile) has lead one E3 and otherwise averaging about HVS....
>vs is basically hard walking
That's an interesting comment from someone who (according to your profile) has lead one E3 and otherwise averaging about HVS....
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In reply to springfall2008:
Who vary rarely does trad. And regularly onsights 7a. But thanks for the concern.
Vs has never been a problem on the occasions I've been trad climbing, or taken relative beginners out. If they're seconding they have no issue getting up a vs. If they were to try and lead they would get scared and fail. It's not stretch or technique that they are lacking.
Who vary rarely does trad. And regularly onsights 7a. But thanks for the concern.
Vs has never been a problem on the occasions I've been trad climbing, or taken relative beginners out. If they're seconding they have no issue getting up a vs. If they were to try and lead they would get scared and fail. It's not stretch or technique that they are lacking.
Post edited at 15:41
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In reply to Robert Durran:
I disagree totally. Most people fail because they are scared. Not because they can't pull themselves up on the jugs. Same with vs. People fail not because they haven't trained physically enough, but because they get scared.
I disagree totally. Most people fail because they are scared. Not because they can't pull themselves up on the jugs. Same with vs. People fail not because they haven't trained physically enough, but because they get scared.
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In reply to Robert Durran:
I agree with Durran. According to the Rockfax grade comparison chart, VS runs from the 5.6/5.7 borderline up to 5.9. I guided professionally, primarily but not exclusively in the Shawangunks, for about five years, mostly while a grad student, and encountered a full spectrum of abilities and physical conditioning. In my experience, it is possible that a very few naturally talented beginners might be able to do certain climbs at the lower 5.7 end this range if the climbs are steep and juggy and not technically demanding, and almost certain that no novice could do climbs at the upper 5.9 end of the Rockfax VS scale.
I can think of a whole slew of 5.7's, the Rockfax lower end of VS, that I can guarantee no beginner would be able to do because of the footwork involved and the intricacy of the mental processes required to unlock sequences. If Rockfax is right and 5.9 is really in the VS spectrum, then it would be a truly rare event that a beginner would succeed at that level. In fact, I found 5.8 to be the first really significant barrier to steady progress; many clients stalled there and quite a few didn't ever manage to consistently succeed at the next step, and that's after lots of practice, not at all the first encounter.
I agree with Durran. According to the Rockfax grade comparison chart, VS runs from the 5.6/5.7 borderline up to 5.9. I guided professionally, primarily but not exclusively in the Shawangunks, for about five years, mostly while a grad student, and encountered a full spectrum of abilities and physical conditioning. In my experience, it is possible that a very few naturally talented beginners might be able to do certain climbs at the lower 5.7 end this range if the climbs are steep and juggy and not technically demanding, and almost certain that no novice could do climbs at the upper 5.9 end of the Rockfax VS scale.
I can think of a whole slew of 5.7's, the Rockfax lower end of VS, that I can guarantee no beginner would be able to do because of the footwork involved and the intricacy of the mental processes required to unlock sequences. If Rockfax is right and 5.9 is really in the VS spectrum, then it would be a truly rare event that a beginner would succeed at that level. In fact, I found 5.8 to be the first really significant barrier to steady progress; many clients stalled there and quite a few didn't ever manage to consistently succeed at the next step, and that's after lots of practice, not at all the first encounter.
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In reply to mark_wellin:
I wasn't having a go at your grades (your clearly much better than me), but I was just saying your recent trad grades aren't that much above VS so I wondered where you were coming from here?
I wasn't having a go at your grades (your clearly much better than me), but I was just saying your recent trad grades aren't that much above VS so I wondered where you were coming from here?
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In reply to JackM92:
I'm sure climbing real rock is of the greatest benefit if you are talking about trad climbing which involves a lot more than just being able to do a sequence of moves. The one trouble with outdoor climbing is that you get in less routes in the same time period, so if your time is limited it might be difficult.
On the other hand, I think the one single thing that improved my climbing the most was training on indoor circuits. I also think that working hard routes indoors on lead really helped my confidence to lead outdoors.
I think both have their place, and it really depends a lot on the person and your circumstances.
I'm sure climbing real rock is of the greatest benefit if you are talking about trad climbing which involves a lot more than just being able to do a sequence of moves. The one trouble with outdoor climbing is that you get in less routes in the same time period, so if your time is limited it might be difficult.
On the other hand, I think the one single thing that improved my climbing the most was training on indoor circuits. I also think that working hard routes indoors on lead really helped my confidence to lead outdoors.
I think both have their place, and it really depends a lot on the person and your circumstances.
3
In reply to springfall2008:
The thing holding back me in trad is the wuss factor. Technique or no, if I struggle in a vs it's because I'm being a wuss, not because I can't reach the next big ledge.
And I appreciate the gentlemans experience guiding and I do acknowledge he's got a bigger sample than me so he's opinion is probably more valid. But vs is 5/5+ sport. Anyone can get up a 5. The limiting factor simply will not be physical or technical. If we move to read then the only thing that's changed is the subjective danger element which is what throws people off. So yeah, I should imagine all beginners and me as well wouldn't do an American 5.9 trad route, but a 5.9 sport route won't be an issue.
The thing holding back me in trad is the wuss factor. Technique or no, if I struggle in a vs it's because I'm being a wuss, not because I can't reach the next big ledge.
And I appreciate the gentlemans experience guiding and I do acknowledge he's got a bigger sample than me so he's opinion is probably more valid. But vs is 5/5+ sport. Anyone can get up a 5. The limiting factor simply will not be physical or technical. If we move to read then the only thing that's changed is the subjective danger element which is what throws people off. So yeah, I should imagine all beginners and me as well wouldn't do an American 5.9 trad route, but a 5.9 sport route won't be an issue.
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In reply to mark_wellin:
This is just flat out wrong, and now you're backpedalling. Just admit you were wrong and the debate can move on.
> ...vs is basically hard walking...
This is just flat out wrong, and now you're backpedalling. Just admit you were wrong and the debate can move on.
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In reply to planetmarshall:
It's flat out right, in my experience. I've never been out with someone who has fail to get up a 5. Have you? Really?
It's flat out right, in my experience. I've never been out with someone who has fail to get up a 5. Have you? Really?
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In reply to mark_wellin:
I just had an interesting and perhaps relevant experience in this regard. Did a 5.8 route in the Gunks with a friend, most of whose experience, perhaps two years worth, is in the gym, where he climbs 5.10--5.11. Several falls and hangs were required for him to get up the 5.8 pitch. There were two problems: the first was that in the presence of fairly bad handholds, small insecure footholds absolutely had to be utilized, and my friend didn't trust them and wasn't any good at even spotting them. The second problem was that higher up, two moves involving fist jams were needed and he had never encountered that. Had this been one of his first days out, I doubt there would have been a chance of reaching the top of that pitch.
I just had an interesting and perhaps relevant experience in this regard. Did a 5.8 route in the Gunks with a friend, most of whose experience, perhaps two years worth, is in the gym, where he climbs 5.10--5.11. Several falls and hangs were required for him to get up the 5.8 pitch. There were two problems: the first was that in the presence of fairly bad handholds, small insecure footholds absolutely had to be utilized, and my friend didn't trust them and wasn't any good at even spotting them. The second problem was that higher up, two moves involving fist jams were needed and he had never encountered that. Had this been one of his first days out, I doubt there would have been a chance of reaching the top of that pitch.
4
In reply to Rgold: ITS true that many people moving outdoors can't jam, but then again, neither can a lot of people who've only climbed limestone. Perhaps the local gym is also generous with it's grades . I saw your earlier post, and in my experience most people can top rope a VS after a day. I've seen a few people who straight away can climb 5b English , as long as there are no funny jams or tricks. Locally there is a sports climbing for beginners course and the working assumption is they will start leading on grade 5 routes (as there are so few below that).
I like climbing. Indoors or outdoors, it's much the same to me. I suspect the Op is just benefitting from mileage, and Zimpara needs a long weekend at Stanage where he can do 50 or 60 pitches free of worrying about rope work, knots, and other stuff
I like climbing. Indoors or outdoors, it's much the same to me. I suspect the Op is just benefitting from mileage, and Zimpara needs a long weekend at Stanage where he can do 50 or 60 pitches free of worrying about rope work, knots, and other stuff
In reply to mark_wellin:
"In your experience." Now you're qualifying it.
Yes. I have climbed with a number of people comfortable leading gritstone VS pitches who struggled on 5s in Horseshoe Quarry and Kalymnos.
Conversely, I have just watched an otherwise fit and healthy novice climber struggle to second a VS without extensive coaching and multiple rests on the rope.
> It's flat out right, in my experience...
"In your experience." Now you're qualifying it.
> I've never been out with someone who has fail to get up a 5. Have you? Really?
Yes. I have climbed with a number of people comfortable leading gritstone VS pitches who struggled on 5s in Horseshoe Quarry and Kalymnos.
Conversely, I have just watched an otherwise fit and healthy novice climber struggle to second a VS without extensive coaching and multiple rests on the rope.
Post edited at 18:41
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In reply to mark_wellin:
Understood, but I think it's more than just a wuss factor, there's a few things at play here.
- It's more physical effort to lead a route than top rope it, and even more to Trad lead a route as you have to place the gear. There's many a time I've been hanging around getting pumped trying to find the right size bit of gear, if I didn't need to stop it would have been much less effort.
- Often trad routes have different moves to a normal sports route, for example crack climbing requiring laybacks and/or jams aren't so common for sports climbs and especially not indoors.
- Often trad routes are much longer, I climb 30-40m routes on a regular basis. Most sports/indoor routes are shorter (again there are exceptions). There's a massive difference between a 40m Trad lead and a 15m sports climb in terms of climbing time. If your technique is bad then you will pump very quickly even if the route is quite "easy".
- And no, anyone can't get up a 5, I have climbed with beginners and sometimes they can't even get up a 4 indoors. I think it maybe right to say that most people of normal fitness could get up a 5 with some amount of climbing practice, maybe that's what you really mean?
Understood, but I think it's more than just a wuss factor, there's a few things at play here.
- It's more physical effort to lead a route than top rope it, and even more to Trad lead a route as you have to place the gear. There's many a time I've been hanging around getting pumped trying to find the right size bit of gear, if I didn't need to stop it would have been much less effort.
- Often trad routes have different moves to a normal sports route, for example crack climbing requiring laybacks and/or jams aren't so common for sports climbs and especially not indoors.
- Often trad routes are much longer, I climb 30-40m routes on a regular basis. Most sports/indoor routes are shorter (again there are exceptions). There's a massive difference between a 40m Trad lead and a 15m sports climb in terms of climbing time. If your technique is bad then you will pump very quickly even if the route is quite "easy".
- And no, anyone can't get up a 5, I have climbed with beginners and sometimes they can't even get up a 4 indoors. I think it maybe right to say that most people of normal fitness could get up a 5 with some amount of climbing practice, maybe that's what you really mean?
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In reply to planetmarshall:
You only have your experiences just as I have mine.
I've taught successive new girlfriends to climb. All have toproped 5/+ first day (cos that's normally the lowest grade available). The most recent one just led her first 6a+ today (although she had reasonable technique from bouldering a bit).
I've dragged mates up hvs, and forced them to toperope 6a with very little fuss. If I'd asked them to lead, or it had been on trad gear they would have struggled on the very same routes.
Of course there are exceptional people and exceptional routes but I stand by my assertion. I'm sorry you feel differently and I'm sorry (not really) that you feel like I've slighted you climbing by saying vs isn't that hard. I thought that was well known?!
Springfall2008-
Back slightly more on topic- you've identified why climbing outside will have been vastly more useful to this chap that climbing indoors, tactics, head game and experience of outdoor style routes got home from vs to e1.... Funny that. It's almost as if he got up vs reasonably well without all of the aformentioned. Once you hit the technical/ physical barrier of these types of grades (e2 or whatever) then his indoor training is more useful.
I did qualify with 'reasonably fit' or similar to start with.
As for me and most people the wuss factor is number one culprit stopping people climb (Dave McLeod says so). If your top rope grade is different to your sport lead grade then you prove the point.
You only have your experiences just as I have mine.
I've taught successive new girlfriends to climb. All have toproped 5/+ first day (cos that's normally the lowest grade available). The most recent one just led her first 6a+ today (although she had reasonable technique from bouldering a bit).
I've dragged mates up hvs, and forced them to toperope 6a with very little fuss. If I'd asked them to lead, or it had been on trad gear they would have struggled on the very same routes.
Of course there are exceptional people and exceptional routes but I stand by my assertion. I'm sorry you feel differently and I'm sorry (not really) that you feel like I've slighted you climbing by saying vs isn't that hard. I thought that was well known?!
Springfall2008-
Back slightly more on topic- you've identified why climbing outside will have been vastly more useful to this chap that climbing indoors, tactics, head game and experience of outdoor style routes got home from vs to e1.... Funny that. It's almost as if he got up vs reasonably well without all of the aformentioned. Once you hit the technical/ physical barrier of these types of grades (e2 or whatever) then his indoor training is more useful.
I did qualify with 'reasonably fit' or similar to start with.
As for me and most people the wuss factor is number one culprit stopping people climb (Dave McLeod says so). If your top rope grade is different to your sport lead grade then you prove the point.
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In reply to mark_wellin:
I would agree with you for sports lead, and for me it used to be but now I'll lead sports at the same grade I'll top rope them - I don't really mind falling off on sports.
However for trad that's another matter, a combination of not wanting to take falls and the extra effort of placing gear puts my trad grade way down. I'm at about 50% success for on-sight F6b lead (the other 50% finished with rests/falls) but at 100% success on VS lead...
> As for me and most people the wuss factor is number one culprit stopping people climb (Dave McLeod says so). If your top rope grade is different to your sport lead grade then you prove the point.
I would agree with you for sports lead, and for me it used to be but now I'll lead sports at the same grade I'll top rope them - I don't really mind falling off on sports.
However for trad that's another matter, a combination of not wanting to take falls and the extra effort of placing gear puts my trad grade way down. I'm at about 50% success for on-sight F6b lead (the other 50% finished with rests/falls) but at 100% success on VS lead...
Post edited at 19:52
In reply to mark_wellin:
I bet you're popular.
> ...I've dragged mates up hvs, and forced them to toperope 6a ...
I bet you're popular.
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In reply to springfall2008:
Do you ever attempt e2/3? You should have a 50% success rate on a lot of them of a certain (easy gear) type. If not, heads holding you back, not physicality.
Do you ever attempt e2/3? You should have a 50% success rate on a lot of them of a certain (easy gear) type. If not, heads holding you back, not physicality.
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In reply to mark_wellin:
'Successive girlfriends'.............'the most recent one'........'dragged mates up HVS, forced them to toprope 6a'.
Stay classy Mark
BTW. I'm fairly sure Dave MACLEOD (spell it right) would take issue with you calling it the 'wuss factor'. Fear is a perfectly natural and valid reason to struggle on a climb, and calling them 'wusses' isn't exactly helpful.
'Successive girlfriends'.............'the most recent one'........'dragged mates up HVS, forced them to toprope 6a'.
Stay classy Mark
BTW. I'm fairly sure Dave MACLEOD (spell it right) would take issue with you calling it the 'wuss factor'. Fear is a perfectly natural and valid reason to struggle on a climb, and calling them 'wusses' isn't exactly helpful.
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In reply to jsmcfarland:
How else would you like me to phrase the fact that I have had more than one girlfriend in my life and that the one that happens to be at the present end of this series has just done a route? Or the fact that when I take friends climbing I don't pander to their illogical fear of a 'big' number and give them the impetus to actually try.
Ignoring your desperate attempt to insult me to defer your lack of an actual argument....
I'm deeply sorry I misspelt someone's name, does being a pedant make you feel good? Do you put it on your CV?
And it doesn't matter what it's called... Subjective fear of falling. If the subject is more put off by me calling them a wuss (I actually called myself a wuss, and I'm ok with it) then they have deeper self confidence issues that should be sorted before fear of lead falls.
If you read his books and actually have a little think on the subject fear of falling is not (death routes aside) valid for anything other than slowing your progress and holding you back.
How else would you like me to phrase the fact that I have had more than one girlfriend in my life and that the one that happens to be at the present end of this series has just done a route? Or the fact that when I take friends climbing I don't pander to their illogical fear of a 'big' number and give them the impetus to actually try.
Ignoring your desperate attempt to insult me to defer your lack of an actual argument....
I'm deeply sorry I misspelt someone's name, does being a pedant make you feel good? Do you put it on your CV?
And it doesn't matter what it's called... Subjective fear of falling. If the subject is more put off by me calling them a wuss (I actually called myself a wuss, and I'm ok with it) then they have deeper self confidence issues that should be sorted before fear of lead falls.
If you read his books and actually have a little think on the subject fear of falling is not (death routes aside) valid for anything other than slowing your progress and holding you back.
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In reply to mark_wellin:
I expect you are right, but I don't find 50% success rate an acceptable risk trade off for Trad climbing. What do you think the % chance of injury for a Trad fall is?
I do plan to start leading HVS pretty soon as I know I can second HVS.
> Do you ever attempt e2/3? You should have a 50% success rate on a lot of them of a certain (easy gear) type. If not, heads holding you back, not physicality.
I expect you are right, but I don't find 50% success rate an acceptable risk trade off for Trad climbing. What do you think the % chance of injury for a Trad fall is?
I do plan to start leading HVS pretty soon as I know I can second HVS.
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In reply to springfall2008:
Hmm. That's only a question you can answer. If you're solid on your gear placements then you should have full confidence in them, if not, why are you bothering to stop to place them? If you conditioned yourself to (correctly, hopefully) believe in the gear then all you have to worry about is actually climbing and success should be a given, and if it's not you fall and learn and get better.
There should be no greater risk of injury from a trad fall (compared to a sport fall of same distance or angle) unless you have placed something badly or it's a shitty placement. But you should know you are doing that, assess the risk and determine whether to move on.
That's where the head issues or injuries come from, incorrectly assessing the danger aspect of a fall (either seeing them as more or less safe than they actually are).
When you fail those 50% of times do you fall going for a move or slump on the rope? If you're slumping then it's again not physical.
Hmm. That's only a question you can answer. If you're solid on your gear placements then you should have full confidence in them, if not, why are you bothering to stop to place them? If you conditioned yourself to (correctly, hopefully) believe in the gear then all you have to worry about is actually climbing and success should be a given, and if it's not you fall and learn and get better.
There should be no greater risk of injury from a trad fall (compared to a sport fall of same distance or angle) unless you have placed something badly or it's a shitty placement. But you should know you are doing that, assess the risk and determine whether to move on.
That's where the head issues or injuries come from, incorrectly assessing the danger aspect of a fall (either seeing them as more or less safe than they actually are).
When you fail those 50% of times do you fall going for a move or slump on the rope? If you're slumping then it's again not physical.
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In reply to mark_wellin:
I suppose I _think_ the placements are good, but you never really know until you test them - how do you resolve that without testing them.....?
True
I think it's mostly resting after a clip due to lack of finger strength, but sometimes falling off due to getting the sequence wrong and having to try again.
> There should be no greater risk of injury from a trad fall (compared to a sport fall of same distance or angle) unless you have placed something badly or it's a shitty placement. But you should know you are doing that, assess the risk and determine whether to move on.
I suppose I _think_ the placements are good, but you never really know until you test them - how do you resolve that without testing them.....?
> That's where the head issues or injuries come from, incorrectly assessing the danger aspect of a fall (either seeing them as more or less safe than they actually are).
True
> When you fail those 50% of times do you fall going for a move or slump on the rope? If you're slumping then it's again not physical.
I think it's mostly resting after a clip due to lack of finger strength, but sometimes falling off due to getting the sequence wrong and having to try again.
In reply to springfall2008:
You'd be surprised how far you can push yourself with a massive finger curling pump. Resting on a bolt isn't doing you any favours. At the very least go for the next move and peel off.
You can only know if your placements are good by experience, logical analysis and falling on them
You'd be surprised how far you can push yourself with a massive finger curling pump. Resting on a bolt isn't doing you any favours. At the very least go for the next move and peel off.
You can only know if your placements are good by experience, logical analysis and falling on them
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In reply to mark_wellin:
I assume you do very little trad climbing then. Explains a lot.
Ditto.
> Hmm. That's only a question you can answer. If you're solid on your gear placements then you should have full confidence in them, if not, why are you bothering to stop to place them?
I assume you do very little trad climbing then. Explains a lot.
> If you conditioned yourself to (correctly, hopefully) believe in the gear then all you have to worry about is actually climbing.
Ditto.
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In reply to mark_wellin:
I'm intrigued. At what actual rate have you managed to put them off?
> I've taught successive new girlfriends to climb.
I'm intrigued. At what actual rate have you managed to put them off?
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In reply to bpmclimb:
... VS is not even close to being at the beginning of the system. There are quite a few grade bands below that, and there are lots of climbers who operate at them....
The line I always think back to was from a friend who's a pretty good climber IMO, when I said "but I only climb VS/HVS"
His answer was "but there's a lot to climb and a lot of fun to be had climbing VS"
At this point in time I doubt I could climb VS so I'm happy to agree.
... VS is not even close to being at the beginning of the system. There are quite a few grade bands below that, and there are lots of climbers who operate at them....
The line I always think back to was from a friend who's a pretty good climber IMO, when I said "but I only climb VS/HVS"
His answer was "but there's a lot to climb and a lot of fun to be had climbing VS"
At this point in time I doubt I could climb VS so I'm happy to agree.
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In reply to Robert Durran:
Ignoring again your childish attempts to insult my history with ladies because I don't think you're actually a dick, you just seem to be trying to be one....
Care to explain why what I said was incorrect? As you place gear you make dynamic risk assessments on how good they are. If they're trash and won't hold a fall, why bother? If they're A1 gold plated then why would you worry about them?
Interested in your differing opinion. Or have you just got your back up and decided you're going to have a are hissy fit instead?
Ignoring again your childish attempts to insult my history with ladies because I don't think you're actually a dick, you just seem to be trying to be one....
Care to explain why what I said was incorrect? As you place gear you make dynamic risk assessments on how good they are. If they're trash and won't hold a fall, why bother? If they're A1 gold plated then why would you worry about them?
Interested in your differing opinion. Or have you just got your back up and decided you're going to have a are hissy fit instead?
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In reply to mark_wellin:
Many (perhaps a majority) of gear placements are between the two. You still place them though. Your "If you're solid on your gear placements then you should have full confidence in them, if not, why are you bothering to stop to place them?" implies that you wouldn't.
> Care to explain why what I said was incorrect? As you place gear you make dynamic risk assessments on how good they are. If they're trash and won't hold a fall, why bother? If they're A1 gold plated then why would you worry about them?
Many (perhaps a majority) of gear placements are between the two. You still place them though. Your "If you're solid on your gear placements then you should have full confidence in them, if not, why are you bothering to stop to place them?" implies that you wouldn't.
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In reply to Robert Durran:
No my implication was that if you know what a good one is you should know to trust it. Reasonable caution is implied, as in most things in life. Similarly, if you know which ones are trash then you shouldn't waste your time. I never mentioned the middle ground, you made an assumption of what I meant based on your bias against me because apparently it's wrong to have had more than one girlfirend in ones life.
Why do people become blinkered pedants when they're trying to win an argument without anything to argue?
Beyond this, Springfall, who I directed these comments too, seemed to understand their subtleties and concur with the sentiment. You just wanted to try and be a jerk.
Do you have anything actually related to the discussion? Or do you want to continue being a dick?
No my implication was that if you know what a good one is you should know to trust it. Reasonable caution is implied, as in most things in life. Similarly, if you know which ones are trash then you shouldn't waste your time. I never mentioned the middle ground, you made an assumption of what I meant based on your bias against me because apparently it's wrong to have had more than one girlfirend in ones life.
Why do people become blinkered pedants when they're trying to win an argument without anything to argue?
Beyond this, Springfall, who I directed these comments too, seemed to understand their subtleties and concur with the sentiment. You just wanted to try and be a jerk.
Do you have anything actually related to the discussion? Or do you want to continue being a dick?
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In reply to mark_wellin:
No, and the statement I quoted clearly implied that you didn't recognise the existence of the middle ground. I can only go on what you actually write - it's not my fault if you don't write what you mean.
I made no assumptions at all; I have simply been addressing the nonsense you have been posting.
You seem to have resorted to personal abuse. It is, in fact, tempting to make the assumption that this is because you know you have lost the argument, but I'll try to just ignore it.
> No my implication was that if you know what a good one is you should know to trust it. Reasonable caution is implied, as in most things in life. Similarly, if you know which ones are trash then you shouldn't waste your time. I never mentioned the middle ground.
No, and the statement I quoted clearly implied that you didn't recognise the existence of the middle ground. I can only go on what you actually write - it's not my fault if you don't write what you mean.
> You made an assumption of what I meant based on your bias against me.........
I made no assumptions at all; I have simply been addressing the nonsense you have been posting.
> Why do people become blinkered pedants when they're trying to win an argument without anything to argue?
> You just wanted to try and be a jerk.
> Do you have anything actually related to the discussion? Or do you want to continue being a dick?
> You just wanted to try and be a jerk.
> Do you have anything actually related to the discussion? Or do you want to continue being a dick?
You seem to have resorted to personal abuse. It is, in fact, tempting to make the assumption that this is because you know you have lost the argument, but I'll try to just ignore it.
Post edited at 22:39
8
In reply to Robert Durran:
Regurgitating what I said is barely above the level of a toddler, and isn't conducive to a debate, so ima just leave you to it mate.
Regurgitating what I said is barely above the level of a toddler, and isn't conducive to a debate, so ima just leave you to it mate.
8
In reply to mark_wellin:
I've seen plenty of beginners fail to second Severe cleanly, let alone VS. I'd suggest that maybe there's some selection bias going on with your "relative beginners" or something.
If your argument is that an intensely focused indoor training regime won't do much for the average VS leader because it probably isn't strength or power-endurance that's holding them back then you might have a point. Although again, I think it's a matter of degree - people who can't climb outdoors very often will get more from regular sessions at the wall than people who are out on rock every weekend would.
> Vs has never been a problem on the occasions I've been trad climbing, or taken relative beginners out. If they're seconding they have no issue getting up a vs. If they were to try and lead they would get scared and fail. It's not stretch or technique that they are lacking.
I've seen plenty of beginners fail to second Severe cleanly, let alone VS. I'd suggest that maybe there's some selection bias going on with your "relative beginners" or something.
If your argument is that an intensely focused indoor training regime won't do much for the average VS leader because it probably isn't strength or power-endurance that's holding them back then you might have a point. Although again, I think it's a matter of degree - people who can't climb outdoors very often will get more from regular sessions at the wall than people who are out on rock every weekend would.
6
In reply to mark_wellin:
"As you place gear you make dynamic risk assessments on how good they are. If they're trash and won't hold a fall, why bother?"
Well i've placed many a piece of bombproof gear and trusted it entirely but i've also placed a lot of stuff on the principle it might hold or would at least slow me down.
"As you place gear you make dynamic risk assessments on how good they are. If they're trash and won't hold a fall, why bother?"
Well i've placed many a piece of bombproof gear and trusted it entirely but i've also placed a lot of stuff on the principle it might hold or would at least slow me down.
5
In reply to Ramblin dave:
You're round up is pretty accurate, although I did stipulate 'physically fit', so this could be the bias you are talking about. Of course i have seen people fail seconding/ top roping lower grade routes, but they tend to be the people that would fail initially at most physical activity either through being less physically able, or having a mentality not conducive to pushing through subjectivities.
You're round up is pretty accurate, although I did stipulate 'physically fit', so this could be the bias you are talking about. Of course i have seen people fail seconding/ top roping lower grade routes, but they tend to be the people that would fail initially at most physical activity either through being less physically able, or having a mentality not conducive to pushing through subjectivities.
1
7
In reply to jonathan shepherd:
Yeah....
And if you placed a marginal piece you'd have to have some balls/ be stupid to head up into a 20ft runout that's at or above your onsight limit. If it was bomber you potentially wouldn't have a problem with the same scenario.
If they are genuinely useless then you've made a tactical error there by wasting energy trying to place it.
If it's bomber and you still fanny around and don't commit then it's not your physicality that's letting you down, it's your head game.
Regardless, it's very rare that a move will stop you climbing a vs, but your gear placement and associated risk adversion would. Which brigs is back to the original point. Why has going outside instead of training inside helped this dudes climbing? Because he's become a more confident leader, not because he needed to get stronger etc. He already had the physical attributes to be able to climb vs without training, as do most people.
Yeah....
And if you placed a marginal piece you'd have to have some balls/ be stupid to head up into a 20ft runout that's at or above your onsight limit. If it was bomber you potentially wouldn't have a problem with the same scenario.
If they are genuinely useless then you've made a tactical error there by wasting energy trying to place it.
If it's bomber and you still fanny around and don't commit then it's not your physicality that's letting you down, it's your head game.
Regardless, it's very rare that a move will stop you climbing a vs, but your gear placement and associated risk adversion would. Which brigs is back to the original point. Why has going outside instead of training inside helped this dudes climbing? Because he's become a more confident leader, not because he needed to get stronger etc. He already had the physical attributes to be able to climb vs without training, as do most people.
Post edited at 23:28
8
In reply to mark_wellin:
Yes, more confident, but probably, and just as importantly, technically better - you learn a lot more technique on rock than on plastic.
> Which brigs is back to the original point. Why has going outside instead of training inside helped this dudes climbing? Because he's become a more confident leader, not because he needed to get stronger etc. He already had the physical attributes to be able to climb vs without training, as do most people.
Yes, more confident, but probably, and just as importantly, technically better - you learn a lot more technique on rock than on plastic.
Post edited at 23:59
4
In reply to mark_wellin:
Done many jamming cracks? Full of gear, yet novices do not stand a chance.
> Regardless, it's very rare that a move will stop you climbing a vs
Done many jamming cracks? Full of gear, yet novices do not stand a chance.
6
In reply to mark_wellin:
Well it's quite hard to debate with someone who won't engage with with what they have written themselves and resort to abuse rather than engaging with what others have written.
> Regurgitating what I said is barely above the level of a toddler, and isn't conducive to a debate, so ima just leave you to it mate.
Well it's quite hard to debate with someone who won't engage with with what they have written themselves and resort to abuse rather than engaging with what others have written.
7
In reply to mark_wellin:
Your talk about gear is total rubbish. There are a million stories from across the grade spectrum of people placing shit gear 'just because' that actually ended up saving their life, and vice-versa; bomber pieces that ripped just through random bad luck.
Also the way you talk about the head-game and the thought process behind committing to run-outs etc is bizarre. Looking at your profile and seeing that you mainly sport climb is a big clue. 'psychological' pro is a big factor in trad climbing and has helped many people get up something they otherwise wouldn't. Just seeing something clipped to your rope is a big boost.
It's great sitting behind a keyboard and saying that people should 'just' run it out, but not many people do that, and certainly not the majority of the time when confronted with a crap placement. Anyone worth their salt knows that 5 crap placements in a row means one of them could save your life.
Your talk about gear is total rubbish. There are a million stories from across the grade spectrum of people placing shit gear 'just because' that actually ended up saving their life, and vice-versa; bomber pieces that ripped just through random bad luck.
Also the way you talk about the head-game and the thought process behind committing to run-outs etc is bizarre. Looking at your profile and seeing that you mainly sport climb is a big clue. 'psychological' pro is a big factor in trad climbing and has helped many people get up something they otherwise wouldn't. Just seeing something clipped to your rope is a big boost.
It's great sitting behind a keyboard and saying that people should 'just' run it out, but not many people do that, and certainly not the majority of the time when confronted with a crap placement. Anyone worth their salt knows that 5 crap placements in a row means one of them could save your life.
12
In reply to jsmcfarland:
I'm not saying you should just run it out. I'm questioning whether it's the best tactic to bother stopping if you know it's not going to hold.
Regardless of whether shit gear gives you a psychological boost or not, being able to assess correctly what that placement is worth will serve you far better than shoving anything and everything in and/ or trusting everything blindly or not at all. its fine to place psychological gear as long as you know it is. Equally its sill to hesitate if you know it's bomber.
Anyway,
Maybe I am underestimating the skill deficit between indoor and outdoor but I have yet to experience it at the low grades with anyone. Personally I would say progression like the OP would be down to head game rather than specific rock technique (especially as he was a solid vs climber). I appreciate people think otherwise, I'll let you lot worry about getting stronger and practicing your flags in the hope of getting another e point. I'm off to do some fall practice.
I'm not saying you should just run it out. I'm questioning whether it's the best tactic to bother stopping if you know it's not going to hold.
Regardless of whether shit gear gives you a psychological boost or not, being able to assess correctly what that placement is worth will serve you far better than shoving anything and everything in and/ or trusting everything blindly or not at all. its fine to place psychological gear as long as you know it is. Equally its sill to hesitate if you know it's bomber.
Anyway,
Maybe I am underestimating the skill deficit between indoor and outdoor but I have yet to experience it at the low grades with anyone. Personally I would say progression like the OP would be down to head game rather than specific rock technique (especially as he was a solid vs climber). I appreciate people think otherwise, I'll let you lot worry about getting stronger and practicing your flags in the hope of getting another e point. I'm off to do some fall practice.
7
In reply to mark_wellin:
I feel nothing of the kind, what you think of my climbing is immaterial. I simply find it hard to believe that you can possibly think that the statement:
Is anything other than objectively nonsense.
> ...I'm sorry (not really) that you feel like I've slighted you climbing by saying vs isn't that hard. I thought that was well known?!
I feel nothing of the kind, what you think of my climbing is immaterial. I simply find it hard to believe that you can possibly think that the statement:
> ...vs is basically hard walking...
Is anything other than objectively nonsense.
8
In reply to gethin_allen:
Maybe not, but the comment that they'd not get off the ground is ridiculous. Its surprising what a physically fit/strong novice can get up by willpower and enthusiasm, that jamming crack gets laybacked etc....
Having just got out for a day on Gimmer yesterday, the first time in a long while, the only thing tired today is my legs/calves, from standing around faffing with gear and failing to read the route. I couldn't believe quite how rusty I was.
Maybe not, but the comment that they'd not get off the ground is ridiculous. Its surprising what a physically fit/strong novice can get up by willpower and enthusiasm, that jamming crack gets laybacked etc....
Having just got out for a day on Gimmer yesterday, the first time in a long while, the only thing tired today is my legs/calves, from standing around faffing with gear and failing to read the route. I couldn't believe quite how rusty I was.
In reply to galpinos:
I took two seconds up The File - one was leading sport grades well harder than me (he leading 6c outdoors, while I'd be lucky to lead a 6b indoors). He took 30 minutes, of which 25 was hanging on the rope - and only got halfway before having to be lowered off.
The next claimed to be able to jam, had lead trad for years overseas, but just had crap jamming technique - he too spent about 30 minutes, also 25 minutes on the rope - and only just made it (extreme levels of screaming required). It's probably more valid to call it a success of "my winching" rather than "his climbing".
I guess that's what it comes down to - at what point does someone climbing something turn into the belayer just winching them up?
> Maybe not, but the comment that they'd not get off the ground is ridiculous. Its surprising what a physically fit/strong novice can get up by willpower and enthusiasm, that jamming crack gets laybacked etc....
I took two seconds up The File - one was leading sport grades well harder than me (he leading 6c outdoors, while I'd be lucky to lead a 6b indoors). He took 30 minutes, of which 25 was hanging on the rope - and only got halfway before having to be lowered off.
The next claimed to be able to jam, had lead trad for years overseas, but just had crap jamming technique - he too spent about 30 minutes, also 25 minutes on the rope - and only just made it (extreme levels of screaming required). It's probably more valid to call it a success of "my winching" rather than "his climbing".
I guess that's what it comes down to - at what point does someone climbing something turn into the belayer just winching them up?
4
In reply to JackM92:
I think what you've done is, you've have gone from being weak with crap rock technique to weak with good rock technique.
But you're still weak. Once you get on harder stuff (or try sport climbing) you'll find the physical demands of climbing come back into it play and a bit of clever foot work, although required isn't going to be enough to get you through the move. That is when training is going to benefit you.
I think what you've done is, you've have gone from being weak with crap rock technique to weak with good rock technique.
But you're still weak. Once you get on harder stuff (or try sport climbing) you'll find the physical demands of climbing come back into it play and a bit of clever foot work, although required isn't going to be enough to get you through the move. That is when training is going to benefit you.
6
In reply to mark_wellin:
Took another Marine out and it took him a full hour to second Lost Horizon (a 40m VS), with several rests on the rope. This was a fit and strong bloke who is used to pushing through things psycologically, but couldn't get close to climbing a pretty straightforward route.
Perhaps I was just a bit harsh taking him up a jamming crack for his first route...
Took another Marine out and it took him a full hour to second Lost Horizon (a 40m VS), with several rests on the rope. This was a fit and strong bloke who is used to pushing through things psycologically, but couldn't get close to climbing a pretty straightforward route.
Perhaps I was just a bit harsh taking him up a jamming crack for his first route...
3
In reply to Lord_ash2000:
The point I should have made initially was that the moment I stopped climbing on plastic, I was better on rock. There was no gradual improvement, all of a sudden I was just better. Faster, slicker and more confident.
A better title of the thread might have been 'does indoor climbing cause bad habits', clearly it's useful when used as a training tool, but perhaps it's a bit like the role of protein for those that go to the gym a lot - you don't really need it despite what the manufacturers claim.
The point I should have made initially was that the moment I stopped climbing on plastic, I was better on rock. There was no gradual improvement, all of a sudden I was just better. Faster, slicker and more confident.
A better title of the thread might have been 'does indoor climbing cause bad habits', clearly it's useful when used as a training tool, but perhaps it's a bit like the role of protein for those that go to the gym a lot - you don't really need it despite what the manufacturers claim.
2
In reply to JackM92:
Although you can jam sections it's perfectly easy to climb it without. Not really what you'd call a "jamming" crack. It's also not a climb where being strong makes a big difference. One of my early VS leads before indoor walls were common.
Although you can jam sections it's perfectly easy to climb it without. Not really what you'd call a "jamming" crack. It's also not a climb where being strong makes a big difference. One of my early VS leads before indoor walls were common.
> Took another Marine out and it took him a full hour to second Lost Horizon (a 40m VS), with several rests on the rope. This was a fit and strong bloke who is used to pushing through things psycologically, but couldn't get close to climbing a pretty straightforward route.
> Perhaps I was just a bit harsh taking him up a jamming crack for his first route...
In reply to JackM92:
it doesn't seem right that if climbing indoors creates bad habits that you would instantly stop these deeply ingrained behaviors does it?
As for the protein thing, you don't *need* it, but it makes ingesting correct quantities a lot easier. That's different to it being useless.
> A better title of the thread might have been 'does indoor climbing cause bad habits', clearly it's useful when used as a training tool, but perhaps it's a bit like the role of protein for those that go to the gym a lot - you don't really need it despite what the manufacturers claim.
it doesn't seem right that if climbing indoors creates bad habits that you would instantly stop these deeply ingrained behaviors does it?
As for the protein thing, you don't *need* it, but it makes ingesting correct quantities a lot easier. That's different to it being useless.
1
1
In reply to JackM92:
There may be some element of it where being accustomed to sloppy footwork is keeping you in bad habits for your outdoor routes, I don't know. But if you now pretty much exclusively climb on rock its no surprise your ability on rock has improved.
But I still maintain that getting stronger (which indoors is handy for) is going to be the key to your future successes. You've noticed a relatively sudden boost in ability on rock because you've become accustomed to the style and your confidence has grown too no doubt. But you'll soon get to a point where it simply comes down to getting hold of a small crimpy edge and pulling down hard on it to reach the next hold, and at the end of the day, the only thing that is going to enable you to do that is having strong arms and fingers.
There may be some element of it where being accustomed to sloppy footwork is keeping you in bad habits for your outdoor routes, I don't know. But if you now pretty much exclusively climb on rock its no surprise your ability on rock has improved.
But I still maintain that getting stronger (which indoors is handy for) is going to be the key to your future successes. You've noticed a relatively sudden boost in ability on rock because you've become accustomed to the style and your confidence has grown too no doubt. But you'll soon get to a point where it simply comes down to getting hold of a small crimpy edge and pulling down hard on it to reach the next hold, and at the end of the day, the only thing that is going to enable you to do that is having strong arms and fingers.
2
In reply to The Fox:
I'm surprised this debate is still going on because The Fox has nailed the issue. There will be some carry over between most kinds of climbing to other types - but if you want to be good at indoor routes, do indoor routes. If you want to be good on a Woody, train on a Woody. If you are preparing for London Wall, crushing 7a roof routes at the Foundry may help to an extent, but you'd be better off lapping some gritstone cracks.
There are lots of skills that make the climber - not all are physical - there is the head-game, fear of falling, being able to quickly and proficiently place gear, reading a route etc... The more limited the training you do, the more limited it's application. That is not to say that a particular methodology is 'useless' - training is about picking the right tool for the job (often under a given set of circumstances such as time constraints due to work and family life). For any training modality, the benefits to an climber will also vary on where their individual strengths and weaknesses are.
> Specificity.
I'm surprised this debate is still going on because The Fox has nailed the issue. There will be some carry over between most kinds of climbing to other types - but if you want to be good at indoor routes, do indoor routes. If you want to be good on a Woody, train on a Woody. If you are preparing for London Wall, crushing 7a roof routes at the Foundry may help to an extent, but you'd be better off lapping some gritstone cracks.
There are lots of skills that make the climber - not all are physical - there is the head-game, fear of falling, being able to quickly and proficiently place gear, reading a route etc... The more limited the training you do, the more limited it's application. That is not to say that a particular methodology is 'useless' - training is about picking the right tool for the job (often under a given set of circumstances such as time constraints due to work and family life). For any training modality, the benefits to an climber will also vary on where their individual strengths and weaknesses are.
Post edited at 13:51
5
I find it amusing how a generally very interesting question on indoor and outdoor training has turned mainly into a discussion whether VS is walking or not.
Gotta love UKC. Definitely entertaining thread for a rest day.
Gotta love UKC. Definitely entertaining thread for a rest day.
6
Pot hole direct at almscliff is one VS walk I couldn't get off the ground.
Other beautiful walks I've enjoyed in yorkshire are:
z climb at almscliff
the scoop at caley
central crack at brimham
the long black veil at pot scar.
stunning views, lots of calories burnt.
1
In reply to Rakim:
Agreed, Central Crack is really hard work, I've lost skin on it twice, not sure I'll be rushing to get back on it. And I still haven't been back to finish off Z Climb. Again, I'm not in a rush.
It would be interesting to see what proportion of beginners would get up South Chimney Layback, which is 2 grades easier (apparently).
Agreed, Central Crack is really hard work, I've lost skin on it twice, not sure I'll be rushing to get back on it. And I still haven't been back to finish off Z Climb. Again, I'm not in a rush.
It would be interesting to see what proportion of beginners would get up South Chimney Layback, which is 2 grades easier (apparently).
1
In reply to zmv:
Tempted to stick something really controversial on here next week and watch the forum degenerate into one massive free for all.
Tempted to stick something really controversial on here next week and watch the forum degenerate into one massive free for all.
1
In reply to mark_wellin:
What you said was that VS was AT the beginning; now you're sneaking in a bit of a change in rhetoric (not for the first time in this thread). I suspect you will keep doing this, and arguing your case, however many people disagree with you. What is becoming very clear is that you are not the sort of person ever to admit you're wrong.
My feelings aren't hurt at all (why would they be - leading VS is very much in my comfort zone, though I say so myself) and I feel quite chilled at the moment, thanks. I just read what seemed a careless and potentially insulting post - to lower grade trad climbers at least - and felt that a reply was called for.
> It's definitely near the beginning.
What you said was that VS was AT the beginning; now you're sneaking in a bit of a change in rhetoric (not for the first time in this thread). I suspect you will keep doing this, and arguing your case, however many people disagree with you. What is becoming very clear is that you are not the sort of person ever to admit you're wrong.
> You need to chill, your feelings are too easily hurt for being on the Internet.
My feelings aren't hurt at all (why would they be - leading VS is very much in my comfort zone, though I say so myself) and I feel quite chilled at the moment, thanks. I just read what seemed a careless and potentially insulting post - to lower grade trad climbers at least - and felt that a reply was called for.
8
In reply to bpmclimb:
Very sorry, I'll remember to qualify statements even though you and everyone else are clearly well aware of the grading system.
You're right, vs is only near the beginning of the system and is thus easy, but not the easiest.
It wasnt meant to be a disparaging statement. I genuinely expect everyone to be self aware enough to know if they are climbing easy or hard grades in the grand scheme of things. To say something is easy doesn't detract from your achievement unless you believe you've done something difficult. I would never get pissed if someone called a climb I had done easy unless I'd managed to get up to near the levels of pros.
I have recently been very proud of running 10km in a fast for me time. I definitely wouldn't get my knickers in a twist if someone that actually runs said my time was just ok, not great, anyone could achieve that time. Because I'm aware enough to know that just because it's a personal achievement doesn't mean it means anything to anyone else, and what anyone else thinks or says doesn't detract from the sense of accomplishment I have earned for myself.
Running 10km in an hour is easy. Climbing vs is easy. In the grand scheme of things. Get over the butt hurt.
Very sorry, I'll remember to qualify statements even though you and everyone else are clearly well aware of the grading system.
You're right, vs is only near the beginning of the system and is thus easy, but not the easiest.
It wasnt meant to be a disparaging statement. I genuinely expect everyone to be self aware enough to know if they are climbing easy or hard grades in the grand scheme of things. To say something is easy doesn't detract from your achievement unless you believe you've done something difficult. I would never get pissed if someone called a climb I had done easy unless I'd managed to get up to near the levels of pros.
I have recently been very proud of running 10km in a fast for me time. I definitely wouldn't get my knickers in a twist if someone that actually runs said my time was just ok, not great, anyone could achieve that time. Because I'm aware enough to know that just because it's a personal achievement doesn't mean it means anything to anyone else, and what anyone else thinks or says doesn't detract from the sense of accomplishment I have earned for myself.
Running 10km in an hour is easy. Climbing vs is easy. In the grand scheme of things. Get over the butt hurt.
11
In reply to mark_wellin:
"VS is basically hard walking"
"It wasn't meant to be a disparaging statement"
Fine - whatever you say. Bored now.
"VS is basically hard walking"
"It wasn't meant to be a disparaging statement"
Fine - whatever you say. Bored now.
3
6
In reply to JackM92:
Depends what routes you do. Indoor is important for the physical stuff. Looking at your logbook, there's a bit of a mix. Some slabby culm, where texhnique and a good head are more important than fitness. Couple of Tremadog ones, again not very steep ones. But also Out of the Blue, that's fairly steep and a bit bold, so you do have decent fitness. I suspect climbing suits you, you're naturally fairly fit, you get out regularly and you have a good head. With all that you can do some E1s and E2s, though there might be some sustained physical ones you will struggle on. I also suspect you will find that more indoor training will be necessary to progress further. I challenge you to get up Fay or Pacemaker without touching plastic! Unless you climb outdoors all the time...
Depends what routes you do. Indoor is important for the physical stuff. Looking at your logbook, there's a bit of a mix. Some slabby culm, where texhnique and a good head are more important than fitness. Couple of Tremadog ones, again not very steep ones. But also Out of the Blue, that's fairly steep and a bit bold, so you do have decent fitness. I suspect climbing suits you, you're naturally fairly fit, you get out regularly and you have a good head. With all that you can do some E1s and E2s, though there might be some sustained physical ones you will struggle on. I also suspect you will find that more indoor training will be necessary to progress further. I challenge you to get up Fay or Pacemaker without touching plastic! Unless you climb outdoors all the time...
In reply to Lord_ash2000:
Strength / fitness vs technique, the eternal debate. If you're strong and fit, you can afford to be less good technically. It works the other way as well to some extent, but not for very physical routes or moves which are just too hard - if you can't hang a hold because you aren't strong enough, technique won't help. I tend to find that route/move reading and hesitation are my undoing but may be the real reason is that I'm not strong enough. Also when redpointing at my limit I find it really important to squeeze every last bit of technique out so that the moves are easier physically but again may be that's just because I'm not strong enough. Certainly good technique won't hurt and not will getting stronger and fitter. To some extent the two go hand in hand. A bit of a rambling post but suspect you're right if we're talking about reasonably physical routes (so not slabs).
Strength / fitness vs technique, the eternal debate. If you're strong and fit, you can afford to be less good technically. It works the other way as well to some extent, but not for very physical routes or moves which are just too hard - if you can't hang a hold because you aren't strong enough, technique won't help. I tend to find that route/move reading and hesitation are my undoing but may be the real reason is that I'm not strong enough. Also when redpointing at my limit I find it really important to squeeze every last bit of technique out so that the moves are easier physically but again may be that's just because I'm not strong enough. Certainly good technique won't hurt and not will getting stronger and fitter. To some extent the two go hand in hand. A bit of a rambling post but suspect you're right if we're talking about reasonably physical routes (so not slabs).
Post edited at 02:40
1
In reply to JackM92:
If we are talking genuine novices, then based on novice climbers who joined my local Uni club and come in all grades of sporty to non-sporty, then I would guess they would, on their first session, successfully top-rope anything from about 3+ to 5+. That is, some would only get up the 3+, a few would manage a 5+, and most would be 50/50 on about the 4/4+ grade. That's top-roping, indoors, on big plastic holds (this is also accounting for the fact that grades around 3-5 are often quite erratic, with the odd 'easy' 5+ and 'distinctly awkward' 4 not being unknown). The occasional superstar might manage a 6a, but it's the exception rather than the rule.
The grades at this centre are a lot stiffer than they use to be (although I think they are probably pretty fair?) - I did a 6a on my first ever session but that 6a would now be graded about 4+...
I would guess at least 80% of climbing total novices (and an even higher fraction of the general population) would fail to second up a safe VS. After a few weeks of climbing there can be a massive difference though, although VS is still hard!
If we are talking genuine novices, then based on novice climbers who joined my local Uni club and come in all grades of sporty to non-sporty, then I would guess they would, on their first session, successfully top-rope anything from about 3+ to 5+. That is, some would only get up the 3+, a few would manage a 5+, and most would be 50/50 on about the 4/4+ grade. That's top-roping, indoors, on big plastic holds (this is also accounting for the fact that grades around 3-5 are often quite erratic, with the odd 'easy' 5+ and 'distinctly awkward' 4 not being unknown). The occasional superstar might manage a 6a, but it's the exception rather than the rule.
The grades at this centre are a lot stiffer than they use to be (although I think they are probably pretty fair?) - I did a 6a on my first ever session but that 6a would now be graded about 4+...
I would guess at least 80% of climbing total novices (and an even higher fraction of the general population) would fail to second up a safe VS. After a few weeks of climbing there can be a massive difference though, although VS is still hard!
4
In reply to andrewmcleod:
I think my first trad route outdoors was seconding a VS on grit, after climbing indoors for over a year (leading F6a+ max) and a few forays outdoors on limestone sport (leading F6a max I think). I needed a very tight rope to scrap up it, simply because it involved jamming. The grade's a bit irrelevant if you don't have the basic skills. I'd likely have had a much better chance of a limestone E1.
> I would guess at least 80% of climbing total novices (and an even higher fraction of the general population) would fail to second up a safe VS. After a few weeks of climbing there can be a massive difference though, although VS is still hard!
I think my first trad route outdoors was seconding a VS on grit, after climbing indoors for over a year (leading F6a+ max) and a few forays outdoors on limestone sport (leading F6a max I think). I needed a very tight rope to scrap up it, simply because it involved jamming. The grade's a bit irrelevant if you don't have the basic skills. I'd likely have had a much better chance of a limestone E1.
4
In reply to Misha:
I guess what I mean is, even if someone could climb a typically vertical / overhanging route with optimum technique there is still going to be a minimal amount of strength and stamina required to complete the crux moves.
As the grade gets harder that minimum level of strength and/or stamina is going to increase and when it passes the amount the climber has available they will fail. Add in that people won't ever truly achieve optimum technical efficiency on a route, more so when on-sighting, then that minimum strength level increases further.
So in the case of the OP, he's made good gains in the techniques for climbing on rock and that has enabled him to lower his max strength requirements for routes which will enable him to climb harder than he could before, but at some point the technical gains will fizzle out and he'll hit a barrier with strength again. Pottering about on slabs of course will delay this point because they are very skill/balance focused but it'll become apparent on normal (vertical / steep) routes quite quickly.
It's not to say of course that you can't gain strength climbing outdoors, obviously if you treat the crags like a climbing wall and are getting out all the time, lapping steep routes and pushing the grade then you're going to get stronger. It's just realistically in the UK you're not going to be able to keep that up for very long once the weather and dark evenings set in.
I guess what I mean is, even if someone could climb a typically vertical / overhanging route with optimum technique there is still going to be a minimal amount of strength and stamina required to complete the crux moves.
As the grade gets harder that minimum level of strength and/or stamina is going to increase and when it passes the amount the climber has available they will fail. Add in that people won't ever truly achieve optimum technical efficiency on a route, more so when on-sighting, then that minimum strength level increases further.
So in the case of the OP, he's made good gains in the techniques for climbing on rock and that has enabled him to lower his max strength requirements for routes which will enable him to climb harder than he could before, but at some point the technical gains will fizzle out and he'll hit a barrier with strength again. Pottering about on slabs of course will delay this point because they are very skill/balance focused but it'll become apparent on normal (vertical / steep) routes quite quickly.
It's not to say of course that you can't gain strength climbing outdoors, obviously if you treat the crags like a climbing wall and are getting out all the time, lapping steep routes and pushing the grade then you're going to get stronger. It's just realistically in the UK you're not going to be able to keep that up for very long once the weather and dark evenings set in.
3
In reply to Lord_ash2000:
Yes, agree with what you're saying. I was just musing on skill vs strength but at the end of the day, as you say, there is a minimum strength/fitness requirement at a given grade, no matter how good your technique. People with exceptionally good technique can get away with being weaker / less fit to some extent but at the end of the day you won't get up an 8a with 7a physical ability.
Yes, agree with what you're saying. I was just musing on skill vs strength but at the end of the day, as you say, there is a minimum strength/fitness requirement at a given grade, no matter how good your technique. People with exceptionally good technique can get away with being weaker / less fit to some extent but at the end of the day you won't get up an 8a with 7a physical ability.
3
In reply to Misha:
Challenge accepted. Although I suspect Pacemaker might be a bit out of reach during my remaining time in the SW. Fay looks more achievable, hopefully give it a go in the Autumn! Looks like a pretty awesome route.
Challenge accepted. Although I suspect Pacemaker might be a bit out of reach during my remaining time in the SW. Fay looks more achievable, hopefully give it a go in the Autumn! Looks like a pretty awesome route.
In reply to JackM92:
Fay is a tough E3 5c if you're fit. No particularly hard moves but it keeps coming and obviously it's pretty steep. The gear is good and the hardest bit is high up so you can run it out a bit. There are two ageing pegs at to crux but there's decent kit a bit lower so don't let that put you off. LSN is precisely the kind of crag you can train for at the wall by doing loads of stamina stuff but if you get out a lot on reasonably steep stuff, you might be ok anyway. Good luck!
Fay is a tough E3 5c if you're fit. No particularly hard moves but it keeps coming and obviously it's pretty steep. The gear is good and the hardest bit is high up so you can run it out a bit. There are two ageing pegs at to crux but there's decent kit a bit lower so don't let that put you off. LSN is precisely the kind of crag you can train for at the wall by doing loads of stamina stuff but if you get out a lot on reasonably steep stuff, you might be ok anyway. Good luck!
1
In reply to JackM92:
Modern indoor climbing walls are the most significant thing in the rise in standards over the past 3 decades. They allow people to start climbing at a younger age and keep climbing all through the winter months and bad weather and evenings. Some climbers who have only climbed indoors start their outdoor climbing at really high grades, after a short transition period to adapt to the different rock type.
With good routesetting indoor routes can be just as technical as outdoor routes. The routes can be changed on a regular basis too so there are always new challenges unlike outdoors. Good routesetters will use their knowledge of outdoor routes and often recreate the same moves indoors.
What your friends do and how they climb is irrelevant. All top climbers today use indoor walls to train and practice on and get better.
Modern indoor climbing walls are the most significant thing in the rise in standards over the past 3 decades. They allow people to start climbing at a younger age and keep climbing all through the winter months and bad weather and evenings. Some climbers who have only climbed indoors start their outdoor climbing at really high grades, after a short transition period to adapt to the different rock type.
With good routesetting indoor routes can be just as technical as outdoor routes. The routes can be changed on a regular basis too so there are always new challenges unlike outdoors. Good routesetters will use their knowledge of outdoor routes and often recreate the same moves indoors.
What your friends do and how they climb is irrelevant. All top climbers today use indoor walls to train and practice on and get better.
6
In reply to zimpara:
I think it's approximately in the middle, maybe a touch to the left.
I would choose the wall over the crag. That way I could climb there all winter, whatever the weather, and after dark. There would always be new routes to do there too. With a local crag you'd soon run out of routes and repeating the same things would just mean inevitable stagnation. The wall is also purpose designed to improve one's climbing, so likely steeper angles would be better for improving strength and fitness.
> Do you know where the cross over point is?
I think it's approximately in the middle, maybe a touch to the left.
> If you could move house to either, right next to a great climbing wall, or right next to a good little local crag, which would you choose, and who would be able to climb rock /plastic best? Same personal attributes hypothetically.
I would choose the wall over the crag. That way I could climb there all winter, whatever the weather, and after dark. There would always be new routes to do there too. With a local crag you'd soon run out of routes and repeating the same things would just mean inevitable stagnation. The wall is also purpose designed to improve one's climbing, so likely steeper angles would be better for improving strength and fitness.
2
In reply to stp:
Well, that plus bouldering plus sport climbing.
Maybe in principle, but in practice very rarely in my experience. Quite a few setters have limited outdoor trad experience and wouldn't know what to imitate, and the steep angles in most indoor gyms don't provide an effective base for training vertical and less-than-vertical moves.
Probably true, but experience outdoors on a broad variety of rock types is still essential. And of course the gym can't train the host of techniques needed for protecting climbs, setting up anchors, moving efficiently, dealing with runouts, and all the unexpected circumstances that are typical of the outdoor realm.
I think the gym is an essential component of modern training for climbing. Just don't mistake it for a complete solution.
> Modern indoor climbing walls are the most significant thing in the rise in standards over the past 3 decades...
Well, that plus bouldering plus sport climbing.
> With good routesetting indoor routes can be just as technical as outdoor routes.
Maybe in principle, but in practice very rarely in my experience. Quite a few setters have limited outdoor trad experience and wouldn't know what to imitate, and the steep angles in most indoor gyms don't provide an effective base for training vertical and less-than-vertical moves.
> What your friends do and how they climb is irrelevant. All top climbers today use indoor walls to train and practice on and get better.
Probably true, but experience outdoors on a broad variety of rock types is still essential. And of course the gym can't train the host of techniques needed for protecting climbs, setting up anchors, moving efficiently, dealing with runouts, and all the unexpected circumstances that are typical of the outdoor realm.
I think the gym is an essential component of modern training for climbing. Just don't mistake it for a complete solution.
3
1
In reply to rgold:
That's too bad. I confess I live in Sheffield where the walls have plenty of vert and less than vert walls and the routes are set by highly experienced climbers who have been climbing for years. Got the impression that most of them travel around the country a fair bit but they probably charge more than inexperienced locals I imagine so I imagine some places the cost cutting is needed.
I suspect many wall managers simply don't appreciate the importance of good routesetting either.
Totally agree, though it shouldn't take too long to learn the necessary skills with a bit of dedicated time and effort.
I think of indoor climbing as just another rock type. Someone who only climbed on grit would be in for a shock on their first few encounters on limestone (and vice versa). A bit of adaptation time to any new rock always seems necessary.
> Quite a few setters have limited outdoor trad experience and wouldn't know what to imitate, and the steep angles in most indoor gyms don't provide an effective base for training vertical and less-than-vertical moves.
That's too bad. I confess I live in Sheffield where the walls have plenty of vert and less than vert walls and the routes are set by highly experienced climbers who have been climbing for years. Got the impression that most of them travel around the country a fair bit but they probably charge more than inexperienced locals I imagine so I imagine some places the cost cutting is needed.
I suspect many wall managers simply don't appreciate the importance of good routesetting either.
> but experience outdoors on a broad variety of rock types is still essential. And of course the gym can't train the host of techniques needed for protecting climbs, setting up anchors, moving efficiently, dealing with runouts, and all the unexpected circumstances that are typical of the outdoor realm.
Totally agree, though it shouldn't take too long to learn the necessary skills with a bit of dedicated time and effort.
I think of indoor climbing as just another rock type. Someone who only climbed on grit would be in for a shock on their first few encounters on limestone (and vice versa). A bit of adaptation time to any new rock always seems necessary.
1
In reply to JackM92:
By mixing training indoors with bouldering in the Peak, I found I got loads better at climbing outside than before I started using climbing walls. Wall training can be great for confidence on whatever rock type if you keep climbing on both as you gradually get stronger.
By mixing training indoors with bouldering in the Peak, I found I got loads better at climbing outside than before I started using climbing walls. Wall training can be great for confidence on whatever rock type if you keep climbing on both as you gradually get stronger.
Post edited at 22:22
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