UKC

Hi,
I always come back to this when the weather is like today, in Glasgow at least (pooring).
I am on my third soft shell in say 15 years. I went through both, gore and event with no significant difference. In the first year the jacket is great, reasonably waterproof. Then there I get into a period where a regular treatment is needed to keep the water away. However, after a while it gets to a point where it becomes beyond help. Hence my question. Are membranes overrated?

Are jackets like Paramo, which do pretend to have a magical solution, a better value for money? No membranes, just regular maintenance.

The way I see it is that membranes are there for waterproofness, and to make it better than a bin bag it is also breathable. But this is not all. What we are not being told is that the outer material is heavily impregnated in the factory, and this also wears out. When new all works great, but then the membrane wears out, cracks, delaminates, etc. etc. over time, impregnation wears out, and all becomes useless.

And post-market impregnations only work to an extent, at least for me.

So, how long cay you maintain the waterproofness of your soft shell? How do you do this? Is Paramo way really better than membranes?

Please elaborate.

In reply to Pietrach:

Paramo is better if you are thrashing around on rock IMO, as it's quite robust. I have had mine for 15 years. For walking around in the pouring rain, it's not brilliant and I wear a Saloman waterproof. I know this won't last more than a few years so instead of paying £200 I just buy cheap ones.

In reply to Pietrach:

I prefer Goldblade

In reply to Pietrach:

I've always been happy enough with my XCR goretex jacket with pit-zips. It's possibly the pit zips which can make the difference?

In reply to Pietrach:

You seem to have soft shell and hard shell mixed up?

In reply to JayPee630:

It strikes me he's asking how long a soft shell can be maintained for after having a grumble about hard shells?

In reply to Pietrach:

Buy cheap one, or half price in the sales. Throw away or spare or for walkin dog after 2 years. Never bought an £500 arcetryx or Patagonia jacket but I don't imagine there is any real difference to what you describe its just 'newer' material, cutting edge stitching, cutting and bonding techuniques etc. Been around buying this stuff for 25 years to realise that the top end stuff has filtered down to the budget and it makes no difference. Gore, Event, Keela, the other one that montane use a lot, it all goes the same way.

D

In reply to Timmd:

It is however a fair question to ask - are hard shell membranes worth spendign a lot of money on, given that their effectiveness often (always?) wears out in a sfairly short period of time.
I'm considering just goign down the 'cheapo' rotue msyelf soon as I need to buy a new one.
Has your XCR one lasted many years?

In reply to Timmd:

A clarification: I meant hard-shell, obviously.

In reply to Si dH:

I definitely favour getting the cheapest jacket you can find with a decent hood and cut, so probably not the very cheapest, but certainly sub £200.

I work in the basis that I'll only wear it if it is raining hard, if it is raining hard the breathability is compromised anyway.

In reply to Pietrach:

In the days when goretex was properly designed pre year 2000, I bought a ME changabang. It has a good hood, pit zips to ventilate and a flap over the main zip.
It's suffered dogs abuse and not really been reproofed. However, 16 years on it withstands the shower test. Absolutely no leakage anywhere with the power on full.
Standing in the shower doesn't replicate hill use but it proves the membrane is fine.
Go for a second hand vintage ME/berghaus etc off eBay and you won't go far wrong.

In reply to Dave the Rave:

Ditto my 25 year old Slioch made in Scotland 3 layer goretex. Breathability isn't up to much but still well up to lying down in a bog...

In reply to Dave the Rave:


Do you really think the new ones don't work? I worked in a climbing shop in the 90s and we had lots of people bringing back jackets that leaked somehow.

I've recently found an event jacket I reviewed in 2009 http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=2285 is leaking. It hasn't had heavy usage but it is 7 years old now. I washed it carefully and did a reproof with nikwax and it seems to be ok again now, so it does look like following the care labels helps! Not sure if that jacket had ever been washed before.

In reply to Pietrach:

Yeah you always hear this "GoreTex leaks!!" rubbish. Either it's worn out or it's badly designed. I'd like to see some proper tests where people take their somewhat used jackets and show how it's leaking. Through the seams? Through the membrane itself? Or is it just sweat? Scottish rain will not be remotely close to a hydrostatic head achievable by some basic testing methods. If it really leaks, prove it. This whole GoreTex conspiracy theory makes no sense.

In reply to TobyA:


I've only had one since. A lightweight Rab Latok Alpine event. It looked Gucci but the design was crap. Too short at the front so it didn't provide much cover. It was waterproof for a year of light use and very breathable but even with proofing it leaked under the shower. To cap it all off the zip failed and due to there not being a flap with Velcro, it is now useless. So in my experience of an old heavy goretex pre 2000 compared to nowadays lightweight ones, there's no contest in durability, function and value for money.

In reply to Pietrach:

After years struggling with goretex and its imitations L gave up with membranes. Too many cold soggy days on the hill. I get along fine with Paramo kit. The Nikwax Analogy takes a fare bit of looking after but on the hill it's the best I've come across. A couple of years back my winter Paramo gear was looking a tad worn so I had a smock and trousers mad by Cioch Outdoors on Skye. Absolutely chuffin brilliant! Fit like a glove and perform above my expectations. Several MRTs use Cioch with that's any recommendation............

In reply to Pietrach:

My buffalo is 10 years old and only just coming to the end of its life.

Would recommend massively.

In reply to bouldery bits:



They don't make them like they used to. Mines 23 years old and worn daily Sept until June.

In reply to Dave the Rave:


So, from a sample of two (one old, one new) you have reached a definitive conclusion? Hardly scientific.

The propensity of modern jackets to fail has more, in my opinion, to do with the trend towards light weight. It's hardly surprising if a 300g garment wears faster than an 800g one. The membrane is then more readily exposed to damage. I would however hazard a guess that, for its shorter lifespan, the modern jacket is a bloody sight more comfortable (=less sweaty). And, for me at least, staying cool under the jacket is more important than staying perfectly dry.

OP try Neoshell for the best breathability. Rab and Jottnar both make good jackets at differing price points.

In reply to Pietrach:

Hi
I work with groups out in all conditions.I wear Goretex and Paramo. Sometimes a Goretex over a lightweight paramo.( i find this works really well)

It seems to me the water replency of the outer is really important to stop it wetting out and reducing the breathability. I've seen kids with brand new berghaus AQ stuff remaining really dry at the end of a long monsoonal day. Water was still beading and the garment could breath. My nice ME thing wasn't beading and was soon wet. A jacket soon loses this and you get damp through your own sweat. I think most of the reproofing things are poor.
I find paramo lasts longer can be reproofed and is tougher. However in warmer conditions/ showers I find a hard shell more useful