UKC

Rob Greenwood attempts the impossible: to narrow down the 5 best E3s in Britain.

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In reply to UKC Articles:
Good read. Nice to see one one of your lists that I have ticked - (OK part from White Wizard) - including the 'extras'!


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Void, best E3 I've ever done.

In reply to UKC Articles:

Climbed the Moon at Gogarth for the first time last week and it immediately went into my top five routes AT ANY GRADE, so it definitely should be here. I'd be happy to swap it for November.

In reply to UKC Articles:
the opening post says "Britain" presumably the island of Great Britain, but the article title is "UK" which also includes Northern Ireland and Fairhead which has some of the best E3s I've done; eg Salango and Jolly Roger. Has the author been to Fairhead?

In reply to Chris Craggs:



Me too, Chris. Well apart from Interrogation, Big Greeny, Wall of Horrors, Western front, Titan's Wall and Ocean Boulevard...

In reply to kevin stephens:

Hi Kevin,

I wrote the UKC Destination Article to the area: http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=7435

Jolly Roger was definitely on the short list (which consisted of around 30 routes), but didn't quite make the shorter list. It's hard to put into words why not, because it is most definitely an amazing route, but for some reason it didn't have that extra something that the others did.

Oddly, I felt a lot of the Fair Head E4s DID have this and it'd have been a tough call between Track of the Cat, Born to Run, and Face Value were I to have written the Top 5 E4s article.

In reply to Derek Ryden:
Derek,

I've got a bit of a confession to make here, as The Moon definitely made it to the short list (mentioned above), but didn't quite make it through to the shorter list owing to the fact I'd already gone a bit sea cliff mad...

Out of interest, have you done Dreadnought? If so, I'd be interested to know how you think they compare. I thought it trumped The Moon to the post both in terms of climbing, approach, exposure, atmosphere - the lot!! Then again, just to re-iterate my feels lest they are taken the wrong way - they really are both incredible routes.

Re: November, maybe you're right...oh god...

Top 20 E3s anyone, perhaps that would be easier???

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:
Thanks Rob, the top 30 list would be good to see, if less contaversial? Face Value is a brilliant route too

In reply to beverooni:

I've done it twice and never once have I thought it was soft for E4!!

In reply to kevin stephens:

Enjoy!

1. Dream Liberator
2. Swordfish
3. White Wizard
4. The Big Greeny/Wall of Horrors/Western Front
5. Interrogation
6. Dreadnought
7. Titan’s Wall
8. Ocean Boulevard
9. November
10. Prana
11. Kafoozalem/Raven Wall/The Ghost
12. West Buttress Eliminate
13. Lyme Crime (single pitch)
14. Over the Hill
15. Jolly Roger
16. The Moon
17. Star Gate
18. Pleasure Dome
19. Requiem
20. Boot Hill
21. Comes the Dervish
22. Kitten Claws
23. Phoenix
24. Path to Rome
25. Left Wall (Direct Finish)
26. Pulsar + Sacred Idol
27. Samurai Groove
28. Kalahari
29. Cripple Creek (too loose to include in any formal HSE approved list)
30. Fathoms (DWS curveball)

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Kitten Claws, what is it with people and Kitten Claws? Apart from the thought that someone might fail on the crux and end up in a grim state, folk must be discouraged from skiving off up to north Pembroke for a day sunbathing on slabs.

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:
Thanks, I've done 16/30

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Scotland is feeling a bit left out! I think you need to visit the Outer Hebrides.

In reply to Liam Ingram:
Hi Liam,

Funnily enough I actively avoided mentioning/including the islands.

Whilst I couldn't agree more with regards to your sentiments, they are home not just to some of the best climbing I have done in the UK, but in the whole world; however they are equally a very precious place that have become a little too crowded in recent years, so I figured I'd give their public endorsement (shy of this short message) a bit of a rest in such a public place.

Hope that makes sense, feel free to PM me if you've got any questions.


Rob

p.s. if you've got any other Scottish recommendations fire away!

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Great Wall at Craig Y Forwyn, then Comes the Dervish in Vivian aren't too shabby.

In reply to AP Melbourne:

Gets E4 these days Andy.

On that note, there's quite a few E4s that used to get E3, which could have gone in the Top 5: Void (mentioned above), Vulcan, New Dimensions...

Any more?

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:


It always got E4, Rob - even in Andy's own North Wales Limestone guide!

In reply to jon:

Brilliant...

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Comes The Dervish Rob! I know its soft but it is fantastic climbing and the history and aura around it made it a massive deal for me when I did it.

Also re: your shortlist- don't think anyone could complain at Path To Rome being in there, that has to be one of the best lines in the country. And I'd never say Lyme Cryme is a top 5 E3, but if you were to make a list of top 5 hardest E3's it has to be there surely!

In reply to UKC Articles:

Totally psyched to see an article illustrated with a picture of me! Good list, how could it not be, I'm sure yo could write 10 different top 5 E3 lists and they'd all be equally valid.

In reply to UKC Articles:

Hmm, poor old Lundy with Wolfman Jack and Matt Black rejected, even from the top 30. Boo bloody hoo. And then there's Rampart missing too ... boo bloody hoo again - and American Shrapnel; always had a fond regard for that climb.

Comes the Dervish is in the top 30 though.

But Slip it in Quick (Baggy) isn't .... quiet sob.

Exceedingly interesting article Rob.

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:




None of those are (were) E4 Rob back in the day. Perhaps they've shed the odd hold though I dobt the crack's fallen off Void? I even doubt it too ... 'u' included.
If Great Wall (Forwyn)'s E4 I shall have to recall Both copies of me book wot I rote and sold wiv it at E3 wen I told me mum I'd just soloed it. Ha!
Taxi !

In reply to UKC Articles:

Love this lists Rob, very brave of you. Keep them coming.

And agree on Scotland, though you could mention the ones on mainland (i agree leaving the islands out).

In reply to Chris_Mellor:

My last trip to Lundy (in 2008) was a complete wash-out (hence I failed to get much done), but I've to another trip planned this September: Wolfman Jack, Promised Land, and Rampart are all on the list... No doubt there'll be a destination article written upon my return.

Haven't done Slip it in Quick, but will add that to the ever-growing list too.

In reply to Chris_Mellor:

As a geeky aside, it is also worth mentioning that Pat Littlejohn did 1 x FA on the E2 list, 1 x FFA on the E4 list, 2 x FAs on the E5 list, and has a great many other routes mentioned within the text of each and additional lists within each.

In short: Pat had an eye for one hell of a line...

In reply to AP Melbourne:


I got the book wot you rote in front of me, Andy... and it's E4!

In reply to jon:

http://www.climbers-club.co.uk/downloads/forwyn_lr.pdf

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Haystack! amazing.

In reply to Uisdean hawthorn:

Uisdean, this'll make you laugh - I went up to Shelterstone with Murdo years ago to do something, anything (or so I thought) - I was just psyched to be up there in summer. However, little did I know was that Murdo - a man with something of a reputation for a plan - very much wanted to do Thor (and absolutely nothing else).

When that turned out to be wet he basically threw a paddy and refused to do anything but the quickest route we could (The Needle) then get out of there, as such I've not done much on the crag in summer!!

Would love to go back...

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Nothing on Gogarth Main Cliff; how about Rat Race?
The Moon and Kalahari are both great routes but maybe too similar/close to each other? To be controversial I would rate Kalahari over the Moon (which is arguably E2 anyway)

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
absolute classic Murdo

brilliant !!!!

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:
These lists are ridiculous. Top 100 E3s would still be impossible to compile.

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:









So you've written a "best of" but have deliberately avoided including some of the best ones? Even more ridiculous.

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:


Only two Scottish routes in a top thirty (and one of which is Over The Hill!) is a joke, even omitting the islands (Yes, the Barra Isles have become too popular, but rock climbing in the Cuillins has been out of fashion for a couple of decades and in 5 week long trips to Lewis, which gives as good climbing as anywhere, I've only met another climber on three occasions!)

Anyway the E3's Uhuru and Enigma (Cuillins), Sumo (Beinn Eighe), Temple of Doom (Church Door) and Black Spout Wall (Lochnagar) are all right up there with Titan's Wall amongst the most brilliant routes in the country and should be on any UK list.

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:


I do agree with you about the Barra Isles.

A couple of other ones that stand out to me are Spock (Cuillin) and Piggy Bank (Neist).

In reply to Robert Durran:

Rob, I knew you were going to be on my case here (and rightly so), but I knew you'd have a few good suggestions too.

Thanks.

In reply to Liam Ingram:


I mentioned Uhuru and Enigma as, I think, the pick of the Cuilin E3s, but Spock and Creag Dubh Grooves are certainly right up there too. I just didn't think I would be taken seriously if I claimed that four of the best E3s in the UK were all on the East Buttress of Sron na Ciche!

Piggy Bank is a contender for the best single pitch route I've ever been on.

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:
Great Wall on Cloggy is another E4 which used to be E3. I'd say that, Void and even Vulcan would all be tough but fair at E3.

Still reckon the Dervish should be in the alternative Top 5, if only for the line and because it's on slate so a bit different. In fact, I'd say it's a better route than Prana. Here we go...

In reply to kevin stephens:
Salango is good but I wouldn't put it in the top 10 or even top 30. Agree with Rob that Fair Head is amazing at E4 (as well as E2 and E5).

The Moon wins over Kalahari in my book as both pitches are pretty out there, whereas it's just the one pitch on Kalhari. A good contender for the top 10. Not so sure about Rat Race but deserves a top 30 spot.

It's impossible to agree on everything...

In reply to Chris_Mellor:
Wolfman Jack may be. Rampart I seem to recall is a bit of a one move wonder.

In reply to simes303:

Yeah but if nothing else these lists inspire you to go out and explore and do routes you might not have done otherwise.

In reply to Uisdean hawthorn:

Haystack is great but more like E2

In reply to Michael Gordon:


......and a bit overshadowed by Steeple at the grade.
The Harp is a superb E3.

In reply to jon:


It is not easy to get photos as the ground falls away below it.

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:
You've forgotten Adjudicator Wall... In fact I think that probably should have made it into your substitute list Robbie. Naughty boy!!

To the suggestions for Fair Head E3s - I don't reckon the two you suggested were anywhere near as good as the routes in this list.

The E4s at Fair Head on the other hand are amazing.

Also surprised you didn't put Roaring Forties in Rob, you raved about that when you got home...

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

I climbed Dreadnought over twenty years ago and found it hard (definite crux move) and a bit scary (led the top pitch in the dark and nearly came off). In comparison, found The Moon much easier and altogether more enjoyable, with almost every move being brilliant. So the Moon gets my vote, but it makes the point that a lot of it's about how you feel on the day...... Anyway, thanks for provoking such a great discussion.

In reply to kevin stephens:


Not controversial, mad. I think Kalahari's (even) easier than the Moon, and Creeping Lemma harder than either.

In reply to UKC Articles:

Dream/Liberator is a fantastic route, but E3? More like E5 6b!

In reply to Jon Stewart:

6/30 for me.

I thought the crux of Kalahari was tryng not to get turned back by the old description which went along the lines of "the rotten pegs only serve as waymarkers...". I found it fairly straightforward on a calm sunny day so not that memorable. Unlike nearby Peygl which was just the best of Gogarth E3 experiences on a wild day blowing the ropes everywhere, each move getting steeper above the Moon (which looked like a slab in comparison).

No-one has yet mentioned Lubyanka which I thought was brilliant at the time.

In reply to Dave Rumney:


Did Lubyanka the other day, but had to hand lead to my partner on the top pitch - too scary! I normally like bold and exposed climbing, but we agreed this was bold turning actually nasty. The looseness, plus the fact that the climbing is hard and pumpy tips it over from being fun to being not. The start of the first hard pitch was pokey, to say the least, too.

It is a great route, but looseness and poor gear spoilt it for me.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

So... a good effort from Gordon Tinning (RIP) soloing the top pitch circa 1980.

Mick

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Apparently better to run the pitch before and the top pitch together so that if you fall off you'll fall onto runners rather than the belay.

Need to do this and The Skull sometime.

The Torridonian (Seana Mheallan) great route, albeit only 1 pitch.
Crocodile, east face of Anoach Dubh

In reply to Jon Stewart:



Did Lubyanka way back and remember being disappointed by the lack of line and disjointed feel that it had. It was also memorable for Parky chucking up into the void off the last stance having overdone it in the Padarn the night before!

Chris

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

I've got to admit that Adjudicator Wall is a good'un, but not that much of a good'un - at least for me.

Roaring Forties however...well...how can I put it... I think that may have been very much of a good'un for me, but maybe less of a good'un for others.

I'm not sure how I can clarify in any more unclear a way, but either way you should definitely get on it Dunc - it's right up your street

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Jon, I'm with you all the way on this.

I thought the rock was poor, gear was worse, and the climbing mediocre (despite the nice positions). In fact, it is one of a very few routes I could actually say I didn't really enjoy that much (and I never say that!!).

The Skull was significantly better.

In reply to Chris Craggs:


Maybe, but worth it for the thrilling top pitch.

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

It was a very good'un for me too (I wonder how many people have actually done it?). Maybe disqualified from being truly great though by the sandiness of the start.

In reply to UKC Articles:

Cougar (after it was upgraded but before it fell down.........)

In reply to D.Russell:

The Torridonian is a stunning line of course, but in reality a bit of a 2 move wonder. I thought 'A Touch Too Much' and 'Middle of the Road' were better climbing (more sustained) and arguably better routes overall.

Haven't done Crocodile but it's on my list!

In reply to mike barnard:

This was one I was tempted to put on the list, as even though I haven't done it I've seen it from up close back when I did Freak Out (which is, incidentally, on the Top 5 E4 list) - if it climbs half as good as it looks it'll definitely be something special.

One to go back for definitely!

In reply to UKC Articles:

I like the inclusion of the Almscliff trilogy in the list. I have done them all individually several times but also on one occasion at least, all 3 in a day. That day was, however, trumped by possibly my best day's climbing ever on Scafell doing White Wizard, Nazgul, and Midnight Express on a day trip from Leeds in the 1980's with Frank Wilkinson.
Anyone had a comparable trilogy of 3 such classics at this grade in one day anywhere?

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:


You obviously have more faith in Glencoe rock than me then, Rob! Or at least, that little bit of it! Cue Rob Durran to shoot me down in flames...

In reply to Dave Musgrove:
On my only visit to Almscliffe with Paul Williams (RIP) did amongst others W of H Grand illusion Big Greeny & Goblins Eyes
On a day trip from Peak did Cumbrian & Shere Khan before running out of time Ron must have dozens of days like this With Ron we once did (at the time) all the E Grade routes on Cratcliffe

In reply to jon:

OK then. I'm currently on one of my rare trips to the Lakes. What a bag of shite! All the routes are either worn out through overuse or covered in Lichen! Don't remember any issues with Freak Out. I think one gets spoiled by rock/route quality climbing in Scotland. Happy now?

In reply to Robert Durran:

I remember (I think - it was long ago) pulling on some biggish hollow sounding stuff that formed a sort of ledge. When I got stood on it I could see right through the back of the ledge and straight down to H below. I was sure that the ledge hadn't long for this world. I think I climbed it in one pitch so can't be sure which pitch this was on. What I do remember clearly was that we did Lady Jane as a warm up... and it knocked spots off Freak out.

In reply to jon:


Maybe it wasn't there any more when I did it.........

In reply to Dave Musgrove: I once had an amazing weekend in The Lakes climbing with the force that is Chris Snell.

Drive up from Devon in Friday night...arrive at about 11pm.

Up to Scafell on Saturday at the crack of dawn. Did Phoenix, Shere Khan, Lost Horizons and Nazgul. Down at about 10pm.

Dow on Sunday...Holocaust, Murray's Super Direct, Tarkus and a failed attempt at Shining Path. Drive back to Devon. Back for about11pm. Don't remember work going all that well that week.

Back on topic, Break on Through at Sharpnose is a fantastic E3. Milky Way on Lundy is a classy pitch and, for my money, better than Wolfman Jack.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Interesting, from the man who thinks The Strand is HVS!

I thought The Moon and Kalahari were fair at E3. Dream Liberator felt more like E4 - hard and bold (took the fall on lead, was OK but a decent fall), though apparently someone has since dug out a gear placement just under the roof. Nowhere near E5 though! Thought the top pitch on Lubyanka was ok and (fortunately) easier than it looked.

In reply to Misha:


If you had bothered to put in an apprenticeship on gritstone HVS cracks, you would understand why The Strand is HVS.


Funny routes. I've done them both a couple of times or more and sometimes they feel hard and sometimes they feel easy. I think both would be OK at E2.


On that trip I cruised Fay, seconded Immaculate Arete and Darkinbad OK, but just couldn't do the crux on this (plus, it's not really well protected, as you say, decent fall). Tim took about an hour and a half to do the crux move. Hardest route I did that trip, and that included a bunch of E5s.


I haven't done that much climbing this year, this was the first mountain route I'd been on in 2 years or so, plus it hadn't been done for a while and was filthy. It might have felt OK on a different day.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


The Strand feels more like a face climb with a crack for protection than a route requiring actual crack techniques. Are you sure you were on the right route?!

In reply to Robert Durran:

It feels like a big juggy flake crack with extra jugs on the side. Which it is.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Even if it was all jugs, which it isn't, that sounds nothing at all like a typical grit HVS. Anyway, today's dose of Lakes lichen almost makes Gogarth green pubes seem appealing........

In reply to Robert Durran:

Where were you today, Rob?

In reply to Jon Stewart:
The Strand has nothing to do with grit jamming cracks though (and I can jam ok)! Anyway, Dream is certainly hard for the grade and wouldn't argue with E4, unless there really is some decent gear under the roof now. It's hard because it's blind and you have to reach further to get the good holds in the crack, from what I recall. Certainly didn't feel 6b though. Darkinbad is dangerous E5 5c into an E4 6a, probably no sequences as hard as Dream but harder overall.

Funny how routes can be different things to different people or even feel different on different days! All good stuff though.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Green pubes, ha ha ha! Only Gogarth and SW granite seems to have that.

In reply to Misha:

Not doubting it The first time I did the Strand, looking up at 40m of crack to climb looked like it was going to be the hardest thing on earth, not a ladder of jugs. All the cracks I'd ever climbed had been hard, and they'd all pretty much been HVS. Having climbed round the country much more, it's apparent that it's the Peak HVS cracks (grit and lime) are the anomaly (Cornish granite excepted).


Absolutely.

In reply to jon:


Raven Crag Threshwaite Cove today, Iron Crag yesterday. Having a bit of a mare for which I can only partly blame the lichen! But had both crags to ourselves on a nice weekend, so that doesn't bode well for them getting any cleaner. To be fair the lichen is as much unaesthetic as it is a hindrance to climbing, certainly worth minus a star. Oh to be back on Lewis.........

In reply to UKC Articles:

Silly Arête- just remembered it...