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Yesterday I had a rather disapointing experience at Lawrencefield.
I arrived at the crag around 12Oclock with my partner and six friends to find the crag rigged up in areas with two top Top Ropes and an Abseil on Gingerbread Slab and a Zip Line rigged from Three Tree Climb to the tree on top of gingerbread slab. Harnessed and helmets were also laid out on the bay under gingerbread slab, as we approached we were informed by the instructors that "You might want to go and climb somewhere else today as we have a group coming soon"
(red rag bull moment) This is when I lost it, for which I admit I was in the wrong .
We had four novices in our group (Two who have never climbed outside) and had driven up from Oxford for the day, our plans were to get them on the routes on Gingerbread Slab. We had hoped for a relaxed afternoon and we expected to wait about knowing it is a potentially busy crag, I wasn't expecting to be told during the course of the argument that the national trust owns the crag and they have the right to use it as they want and we should go somewhere else.
It turned out that this really was organised by the National Trust from Longshaw , after a heated exchange we had walked off to the area by suspense.
We were later approached by a representative of the national trust who during our discussion couldn't answer most of my points about extremely poor etiquette, erosion of routes , venue choice and the actual safety of the activity (Trees on ledges with eroded routes in dry soil don't make for great tension line anchors, when you send 12 kids over and edge that has loose material maybe you should also barrier off the path below)
I would have hoped that an Organisation like the National Trust which have such close links to the BMC would try to set out to be the very model of good crag etiquette rather than what we and others experienced.
We weren't the only group to walk away from the main area yesterday.
We moved to roadside Bay which had an SPSA assessment and another Instructed group who politely chatted to us and moved their ropes off routes once they had finished allowing everybody to use the crag .... this is how I would hope it should be.
I do have concerns over the rigging of a tensioned line in this location , during our discussion the National Trust representative admitted she had seen neither designs for the system, a risk assessment nor method statement but simply assumed that the company she hired was competent yet she had seen no prior written safety assessments . (I will be contacting the National Trust about this)
The only concession I got was that in future when Lawrencefield is going to be used by this group on weekends again over the summer then we will get a warning on social media.
What do people think , should one group occupy a crag ? Does the National Trust have exclusive access to crags on its land at the detriment to all other users ?
I arrived at the crag around 12Oclock with my partner and six friends to find the crag rigged up in areas with two top Top Ropes and an Abseil on Gingerbread Slab and a Zip Line rigged from Three Tree Climb to the tree on top of gingerbread slab. Harnessed and helmets were also laid out on the bay under gingerbread slab, as we approached we were informed by the instructors that "You might want to go and climb somewhere else today as we have a group coming soon"
(red rag bull moment) This is when I lost it, for which I admit I was in the wrong .
We had four novices in our group (Two who have never climbed outside) and had driven up from Oxford for the day, our plans were to get them on the routes on Gingerbread Slab. We had hoped for a relaxed afternoon and we expected to wait about knowing it is a potentially busy crag, I wasn't expecting to be told during the course of the argument that the national trust owns the crag and they have the right to use it as they want and we should go somewhere else.
It turned out that this really was organised by the National Trust from Longshaw , after a heated exchange we had walked off to the area by suspense.
We were later approached by a representative of the national trust who during our discussion couldn't answer most of my points about extremely poor etiquette, erosion of routes , venue choice and the actual safety of the activity (Trees on ledges with eroded routes in dry soil don't make for great tension line anchors, when you send 12 kids over and edge that has loose material maybe you should also barrier off the path below)
I would have hoped that an Organisation like the National Trust which have such close links to the BMC would try to set out to be the very model of good crag etiquette rather than what we and others experienced.
We weren't the only group to walk away from the main area yesterday.
We moved to roadside Bay which had an SPSA assessment and another Instructed group who politely chatted to us and moved their ropes off routes once they had finished allowing everybody to use the crag .... this is how I would hope it should be.
I do have concerns over the rigging of a tensioned line in this location , during our discussion the National Trust representative admitted she had seen neither designs for the system, a risk assessment nor method statement but simply assumed that the company she hired was competent yet she had seen no prior written safety assessments . (I will be contacting the National Trust about this)
The only concession I got was that in future when Lawrencefield is going to be used by this group on weekends again over the summer then we will get a warning on social media.
What do people think , should one group occupy a crag ? Does the National Trust have exclusive access to crags on its land at the detriment to all other users ?
16
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In reply to muppetfilter:
Unrelated, but in my local area the NT seem to be going out of their way to prevent people enjoying the countryside legally and safely on their land without paying for one of their courses or events.
Unrelated, but in my local area the NT seem to be going out of their way to prevent people enjoying the countryside legally and safely on their land without paying for one of their courses or events.
16
In reply to muppetfilter:
If you have a crag on your land, you probably have the right to use it as you like.
Letting the general public use it too is actually quite generous.
Being allowed to use something/somewhere doesn't give us the right to dictate terms or demand our expectations be met.
We can be offended by behaviour, but often without any 'right' (eg groups hogging routes, people playing music, being asked/advised to leave).
We usually expect/exert the same degree of rights/access control over our property.
Tough luck for you to clash with the owners plans
If you have a crag on your land, you probably have the right to use it as you like.
Letting the general public use it too is actually quite generous.
Being allowed to use something/somewhere doesn't give us the right to dictate terms or demand our expectations be met.
We can be offended by behaviour, but often without any 'right' (eg groups hogging routes, people playing music, being asked/advised to leave).
We usually expect/exert the same degree of rights/access control over our property.
Tough luck for you to clash with the owners plans
4
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In reply to balmybaldwin:
The NT (and similar bodies) are between a rock and a hard place. Alternative funding sources are drying up. Grants from government and other public sources are harder to come by, and like a lot of charities, they are struggling with investments with very low return (charities can't be that imaginative/risky in their investments as thee money isn't theirs as such). So they are trying to maximise the return from the assets they do have- their landholding.
Having said that, I think they are on very dodgy ground using public spaces for exclusive (and excluding) uses. A Non NT related example - our local park is being used increasingly by the LA as a car park for sporting and other events (particularly cricket). The LA is receiving an income for this, but doesn't use any of this money to repair damage done by cars, so the site is rapidly degrading. I really resent seeing a valuable and increasingly rare open space used for a real mixed bag of informal recreation by all part of the community being used instead so well heeled sedentary spectators can avoid an extra 5minute walk before sitting on their overweight arses for 4 days of passive sporting consumption.
The NT (and similar bodies) are between a rock and a hard place. Alternative funding sources are drying up. Grants from government and other public sources are harder to come by, and like a lot of charities, they are struggling with investments with very low return (charities can't be that imaginative/risky in their investments as thee money isn't theirs as such). So they are trying to maximise the return from the assets they do have- their landholding.
Having said that, I think they are on very dodgy ground using public spaces for exclusive (and excluding) uses. A Non NT related example - our local park is being used increasingly by the LA as a car park for sporting and other events (particularly cricket). The LA is receiving an income for this, but doesn't use any of this money to repair damage done by cars, so the site is rapidly degrading. I really resent seeing a valuable and increasingly rare open space used for a real mixed bag of informal recreation by all part of the community being used instead so well heeled sedentary spectators can avoid an extra 5minute walk before sitting on their overweight arses for 4 days of passive sporting consumption.
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In reply to buxtoncoffeelover:
you're sort of right, but the NT are not an ordinary private landowner
you're sort of right, but the NT are not an ordinary private landowner
5
In reply to buxtoncoffeelover:
My Girlfriend is a National Trust Member and was denied the opportunity to experience an activity on land owned by an organisation that she pays yearly to gain access to.
I have very low climbing expectations (I'm weak, scared, love cake and chip buttys)
I'm very aware of how lucky we are to have so many extraordinary places to climb in the UK, I still remember how it felt walking into Lawrencefield over 22 years ago, its a magical little crag and has a WOW factor and to see it littered with ropes like a Go-Ape was to be honest a bit S**t. What is it teaching the kids that may have this as their first experience of climbing? That this is how it should be ?
In my years of climbing I have had thousands of interactions with other climbers all over the world and I can recall maybe three that have left me feeling like this.
My Girlfriend is a National Trust Member and was denied the opportunity to experience an activity on land owned by an organisation that she pays yearly to gain access to.
I have very low climbing expectations (I'm weak, scared, love cake and chip buttys)
I'm very aware of how lucky we are to have so many extraordinary places to climb in the UK, I still remember how it felt walking into Lawrencefield over 22 years ago, its a magical little crag and has a WOW factor and to see it littered with ropes like a Go-Ape was to be honest a bit S**t. What is it teaching the kids that may have this as their first experience of climbing? That this is how it should be ?
In my years of climbing I have had thousands of interactions with other climbers all over the world and I can recall maybe three that have left me feeling like this.
Post edited at 12:47
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In reply to muppetfilter:
I understand your feelings & empathise. I would have felt the same, especially with the travelling etc. We are blessed with pretty reasonable access & it often shocks/disappoints when it goes wrong. I was surprised to be charged (a very small fee) to walk up a valley in the Polish Tatras - pay to walk!!! And to discover that my chosen mountain was closed/out of bounds! Unbelievable (to ignorant me!) but true. And the cost of climbing permits/restrictions on access/limited length of stay elsewhere is staggering but unavoidable. Like it or lump it is often the feeling I'm left with. A host of other personal niggles have to be suppressed in the pursuit of my pleasure!
I understand your feelings & empathise. I would have felt the same, especially with the travelling etc. We are blessed with pretty reasonable access & it often shocks/disappoints when it goes wrong. I was surprised to be charged (a very small fee) to walk up a valley in the Polish Tatras - pay to walk!!! And to discover that my chosen mountain was closed/out of bounds! Unbelievable (to ignorant me!) but true. And the cost of climbing permits/restrictions on access/limited length of stay elsewhere is staggering but unavoidable. Like it or lump it is often the feeling I'm left with. A host of other personal niggles have to be suppressed in the pursuit of my pleasure!
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In reply to muppetfilter:
You're right. They should have bolted it in.
> Trees on ledges with eroded routes in dry soil don't make for great tension line anchors,
You're right. They should have bolted it in.
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In reply to muppetfilter:
Absolutely dreadful and no excuse for this. Poor crag etiquette, particularly by qualified instructors is crap, let's hope the NT don't use them again. Regarding access, the NT may well be a landowner, but most land has been given to them or bought by them with money from donations from the public. NT members at least, and everyone really, should have access rights to 'their' land.
Using those trees for tensioning a rope also raises concerns. Sadly they may well bolt it instead, which would be sad too
Absolutely dreadful and no excuse for this. Poor crag etiquette, particularly by qualified instructors is crap, let's hope the NT don't use them again. Regarding access, the NT may well be a landowner, but most land has been given to them or bought by them with money from donations from the public. NT members at least, and everyone really, should have access rights to 'their' land.
Using those trees for tensioning a rope also raises concerns. Sadly they may well bolt it instead, which would be sad too
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In reply to muppetfilter:
I would have pulled their ropes, or at least the "zip line" rope telling them that I still have a "duty of care" even though I wasn't a NT member.
I would have pulled their ropes, or at least the "zip line" rope telling them that I still have a "duty of care" even though I wasn't a NT member.
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In reply to muppetfilter:
My girlfriend and I met a group there last year, they couldn't have been more helpful though, not sure though if they were NT or not, couple of questions, are you quite sure the tensioned line was only anchored to the tree ? were they using a separate safety line
My girlfriend and I met a group there last year, they couldn't have been more helpful though, not sure though if they were NT or not, couple of questions, are you quite sure the tensioned line was only anchored to the tree ? were they using a separate safety line
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In reply to muppetfilter:
Remove gear and ropes, stop them climbing. NT don't own the countryside an neither does anybody else. I seem to remember the land left to the NT was so the public could enjoy it.
Remove gear and ropes, stop them climbing. NT don't own the countryside an neither does anybody else. I seem to remember the land left to the NT was so the public could enjoy it.
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In reply to olddirtydoggy:
In England they may well own the countryside. Generally they are they only landowners that actually don't post 'Private no access' signs. Thank heavens for Scotland and its access laws. It's always a shock coming to England and its 'get orf moi laaand' ethos.
If they 'own' the crag they can probably do WTF they like. Unfortunately. And disgracefully.
> NT don't own the countryside an neither does anybody else. I seem to remember the land left to the NT was so the public could enjoy it.
In England they may well own the countryside. Generally they are they only landowners that actually don't post 'Private no access' signs. Thank heavens for Scotland and its access laws. It's always a shock coming to England and its 'get orf moi laaand' ethos.
If they 'own' the crag they can probably do WTF they like. Unfortunately. And disgracefully.
Post edited at 23:24
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In reply to Bernard Shakey:
The tree wasnt the only anchor but it was rigged 6ft up which is very bad practice considering the condition of its roots . I can say that cyclic loading a tensioned line will generate is a bad idea both in terms of placement failure and rock erosion .i just checked the photos I took and they show some pretty interesting physics going on in the system !!!
With hindsight i should have aproached the parents with my concerns but at the time i was angry and didnt want to impact their day the way mine had been.
The tree wasnt the only anchor but it was rigged 6ft up which is very bad practice considering the condition of its roots . I can say that cyclic loading a tensioned line will generate is a bad idea both in terms of placement failure and rock erosion .i just checked the photos I took and they show some pretty interesting physics going on in the system !!!
With hindsight i should have aproached the parents with my concerns but at the time i was angry and didnt want to impact their day the way mine had been.
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In reply to muppetfilter:
"You might want to climb elsewhere, we've a group coming" is a pretty reasonable suggestion in light of the fact that they had a group coming. They've as much right to be there as you, and as much right to 'use' the quarry for climbing or whatever else as you. You may well have wished to climb there regardless, but might have had a crappy time working around whatever they were doing and may have wished you'd taken their clear advice and gone elsewhere for a more enjoyable time. All this "pull their ropes", "how dare they" etc is childish, petty, entitled nonsense. Be flexible, adapt and overcome. You're meant to be a climber ffs.
Lawrencefield is one of my favourite crags and I love it on a quiet day, but if I turn up and it's full of beginners, or a big uni group or whatever, I may just decide to go elsewhere, not expect them to make way for me because I'm special (although I am special, and super-rad).
"You might want to climb elsewhere, we've a group coming" is a pretty reasonable suggestion in light of the fact that they had a group coming. They've as much right to be there as you, and as much right to 'use' the quarry for climbing or whatever else as you. You may well have wished to climb there regardless, but might have had a crappy time working around whatever they were doing and may have wished you'd taken their clear advice and gone elsewhere for a more enjoyable time. All this "pull their ropes", "how dare they" etc is childish, petty, entitled nonsense. Be flexible, adapt and overcome. You're meant to be a climber ffs.
Lawrencefield is one of my favourite crags and I love it on a quiet day, but if I turn up and it's full of beginners, or a big uni group or whatever, I may just decide to go elsewhere, not expect them to make way for me because I'm special (although I am special, and super-rad).
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In reply to muppetfilter:
Sounds like the BMC should be investigating both the moral situation regarding the National Trust acting in such a way, and the safety angle regarding whether these "Instructors" should have their qualifications removed and their Insurance affected in a negative manner for the poor or dangerous rigging, let alone the potential long term damage to these rather abused trees.
I know the ones in question, and would never put anything on them anywhere except at absolute ground level.
However the BMC seem to have more important things on their mind, namely gold medals, rather than worrying about that rather naff activity, outdoor traditional climbing, plus access.
Sounds like the BMC should be investigating both the moral situation regarding the National Trust acting in such a way, and the safety angle regarding whether these "Instructors" should have their qualifications removed and their Insurance affected in a negative manner for the poor or dangerous rigging, let alone the potential long term damage to these rather abused trees.
I know the ones in question, and would never put anything on them anywhere except at absolute ground level.
However the BMC seem to have more important things on their mind, namely gold medals, rather than worrying about that rather naff activity, outdoor traditional climbing, plus access.
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In reply to fred99:
Perhaps you should stand for a BMC position or volunteer for the BMC (apologies if you already do); it is a members' organization and you get the organization we (collectively) deserve...
> However the BMC seem to have more important things on their mind, namely gold medals, rather than worrying about that rather naff activity, outdoor traditional climbing, plus access.
Perhaps you should stand for a BMC position or volunteer for the BMC (apologies if you already do); it is a members' organization and you get the organization we (collectively) deserve...
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In reply to andrewmcleod:
Not everyone want to be (or is suited for) getting involved in committee work. I do it for other groups and it can be sould destroying. As far as I'm concerned, me and mrs T actively support the BMC by having a joint membership, even though objectively, it does us no real benefit.
Not everyone want to be (or is suited for) getting involved in committee work. I do it for other groups and it can be sould destroying. As far as I'm concerned, me and mrs T actively support the BMC by having a joint membership, even though objectively, it does us no real benefit.
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In reply to andrewmcleod:
I've been involved in committee work for over 30 years within athletics.
The idea of doing it within climbing/walking at the same time would have been impossible.
Now though I'm done with athletics committees, so not impossible.
On a similar line, I always used to go to the South West BMC meetings, at least when they were in the north of the area, as opposed to Cornwall/Devon, as whilst living in the midlands, most of my climbing was in the SW.
I stopped going however, as far too often those of us who climbed at lower grades (I was a regular VS/HVS, occasional E1/2 at the time) were derided by those who climbed harder, and it appeared that your opinion didn't count until you lead E4.
Now there are those who will deny this.
However the vast majority of climbers rarely if ever lead HVS, most operate at up to VS at best. When these people are shouted down as they "obviously can't know what you're talking about because you're not a proper climber" - a rough paraphrase of what I received on occasion - then what happens is a vocal minority gain control.
I've been involved in committee work for over 30 years within athletics.
The idea of doing it within climbing/walking at the same time would have been impossible.
Now though I'm done with athletics committees, so not impossible.
On a similar line, I always used to go to the South West BMC meetings, at least when they were in the north of the area, as opposed to Cornwall/Devon, as whilst living in the midlands, most of my climbing was in the SW.
I stopped going however, as far too often those of us who climbed at lower grades (I was a regular VS/HVS, occasional E1/2 at the time) were derided by those who climbed harder, and it appeared that your opinion didn't count until you lead E4.
Now there are those who will deny this.
However the vast majority of climbers rarely if ever lead HVS, most operate at up to VS at best. When these people are shouted down as they "obviously can't know what you're talking about because you're not a proper climber" - a rough paraphrase of what I received on occasion - then what happens is a vocal minority gain control.
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In reply to fred99:
I feel ashamed about your treatment. Moff and I've never led much harder than a very occasional E2 and we mainly bimble around sub HVS and we were always welcomed at area meetings and later got invited to co-edit a BMC guide as we were keen, enthusiastic, hard working, interested in the history and widely experienced on the routes with the most 'issues' (the majority of the less popular lower grade lines at the grades where most of the climbing public climb). Moff was a much praised area secretary and is now the first woman on the guidebook committee.
I feel ashamed about your treatment. Moff and I've never led much harder than a very occasional E2 and we mainly bimble around sub HVS and we were always welcomed at area meetings and later got invited to co-edit a BMC guide as we were keen, enthusiastic, hard working, interested in the history and widely experienced on the routes with the most 'issues' (the majority of the less popular lower grade lines at the grades where most of the climbing public climb). Moff was a much praised area secretary and is now the first woman on the guidebook committee.
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In reply to muppetfilter:
I feel it may be a little harsh to blame the Trust for what seems to be an over-zealous group leader... I am sure many of us have seen poor group practise on the crag, so it is a little harsh blaming the Trust for the behaviour of this leader.
The Trust's climbing activities in the Peak are advertised here: http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/longshaw-burbage-and-the-eastern-moors/what...
I feel it may be a little harsh to blame the Trust for what seems to be an over-zealous group leader... I am sure many of us have seen poor group practise on the crag, so it is a little harsh blaming the Trust for the behaviour of this leader.
The Trust's climbing activities in the Peak are advertised here: http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/longshaw-burbage-and-the-eastern-moors/what...
2
In reply to Offwidth:
Offwidth,
I think it's a lot to do with venue and time.
When the meetings are held at a climbing wall, at 6 or 7 pm on a sunday evening, during good weather, it rather skews the type of people who attend.
Most trad climbers will, at that time, be driving home (probably via somewhere to eat/drink), tidying up from a day's climbing, or if the weather's good, getting that last route in. In addition crags close to home can be visited on a midweek evening, so the likely venues tend to be further afield.
The one thing they won't want to do is give up a good day's weather for a couple of hours at a wall. Even if one half of a rope partnership wants to, the other person needs to agree to it as well.
However for those with a predilection for indoors, such a location/time is ideal.
Hence (I believe) the main reason for certain attitudes at those meetings.
Offwidth,
I think it's a lot to do with venue and time.
When the meetings are held at a climbing wall, at 6 or 7 pm on a sunday evening, during good weather, it rather skews the type of people who attend.
Most trad climbers will, at that time, be driving home (probably via somewhere to eat/drink), tidying up from a day's climbing, or if the weather's good, getting that last route in. In addition crags close to home can be visited on a midweek evening, so the likely venues tend to be further afield.
The one thing they won't want to do is give up a good day's weather for a couple of hours at a wall. Even if one half of a rope partnership wants to, the other person needs to agree to it as well.
However for those with a predilection for indoors, such a location/time is ideal.
Hence (I believe) the main reason for certain attitudes at those meetings.
1
In reply to fred99:
My area meets are midweek at 7:00. I often have to leave work a bit early to get home and get there as during rush hour the journey can take nearly 2 hours (under the hour on the way back). Irrespective, people who turn up should be treated with respect and everyone's opinion is counted equally in any votes.
My area meets are midweek at 7:00. I often have to leave work a bit early to get home and get there as during rush hour the journey can take nearly 2 hours (under the hour on the way back). Irrespective, people who turn up should be treated with respect and everyone's opinion is counted equally in any votes.
1
1
In reply to fred99:
However the BMC seem to have more important things on their mind, namely gold medals,
Oh, if only that were even partly true.......
However the BMC seem to have more important things on their mind, namely gold medals,
Oh, if only that were even partly true.......
2
In reply to muppetfilter:
One of the main problems I see at Lawrencefield (and elsewhere) is group leaders rigging ab ropes down hard routes that rely on friction and/or small holds. Dozens of sandy trainers soon screws up these routes (many of which I couldn't climb before they were scrubbed smooth) When I recently challenged a couple of group leaders, in different areas of Lawrencefield the abridged response was "Don't be stupid, nobody can climb up that!" They stuck to that response even when shown the guidebook with 5 routes on gingerbread slab. I find, unfortunately that many of the group leaders do not actually climb, and have got their 'qualifications' without doing so. I am soon going to call in someone who is going to submit a logbook which is total fiction, and photos which have been very carefully posed!. These are the people who are making money out of the crags and putting nothing back!
One of the main problems I see at Lawrencefield (and elsewhere) is group leaders rigging ab ropes down hard routes that rely on friction and/or small holds. Dozens of sandy trainers soon screws up these routes (many of which I couldn't climb before they were scrubbed smooth) When I recently challenged a couple of group leaders, in different areas of Lawrencefield the abridged response was "Don't be stupid, nobody can climb up that!" They stuck to that response even when shown the guidebook with 5 routes on gingerbread slab. I find, unfortunately that many of the group leaders do not actually climb, and have got their 'qualifications' without doing so. I am soon going to call in someone who is going to submit a logbook which is total fiction, and photos which have been very carefully posed!. These are the people who are making money out of the crags and putting nothing back!
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In reply to:
Diddums did someone use a crag for something other than climbing, how dare they.
Diddums did someone use a crag for something other than climbing, how dare they.
Post edited at 17:44
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In reply to fred99:
Who were they? If we don't know who they are then what action can be taken?
P.S. I note "instructors" in inverted commas. Either they are or they aren't.
P.P.S The BMC has nowt to do with the delivery of formal qualifications beyond an oversight role. You need to be banging on AMI's door.
> these "Instructors" should have their qualifications removed and their Insurance affected in a negative manner for the poor or dangerous rigging, let alone the potential long term damage to these rather abused trees.
> I know the ones in question, and would never put anything on them anywhere except at absolute ground level.
Who were they? If we don't know who they are then what action can be taken?
P.S. I note "instructors" in inverted commas. Either they are or they aren't.
P.P.S The BMC has nowt to do with the delivery of formal qualifications beyond an oversight role. You need to be banging on AMI's door.
1
In reply to Andy Say:
Andy, they were a company employed by the National Trust to run climbing sessions at lawrencefield. I have contact details for the NT sports development Officer who was present on the day and responsible for the event and whom I raised our concerns to. I Have sent emails expressing my concerns over group etiquette and my concerns over rigging safety, tree damage and also failure to protect the public by barriering off under the takeoff area.
I have also uploaded photos of the rigging taken from below.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=279490
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=279488
Andy, they were a company employed by the National Trust to run climbing sessions at lawrencefield. I have contact details for the NT sports development Officer who was present on the day and responsible for the event and whom I raised our concerns to. I Have sent emails expressing my concerns over group etiquette and my concerns over rigging safety, tree damage and also failure to protect the public by barriering off under the takeoff area.
I have also uploaded photos of the rigging taken from below.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=279490
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=279488
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In reply to muppetfilter:
Are these the same people who were rigging " death slides" at Burbage a few years ago? Again it was an adventure type activity with the NT
Are these the same people who were rigging " death slides" at Burbage a few years ago? Again it was an adventure type activity with the NT
In reply to muppetfilter:
Hahaha I don't believe it! I know exactly who is behind this. He's a fully qualified instructor based nearby and thats all I'm saying. I remember him telling me he was setting this up back around Feb time and that he was talking to the NT about how it would work. Thanks for the pics, I was wondering if he'd pull it off. On a side note he's a really great guy and I'm surprised it's caused a problem if it is who I think it is.
Hahaha I don't believe it! I know exactly who is behind this. He's a fully qualified instructor based nearby and thats all I'm saying. I remember him telling me he was setting this up back around Feb time and that he was talking to the NT about how it would work. Thanks for the pics, I was wondering if he'd pull it off. On a side note he's a really great guy and I'm surprised it's caused a problem if it is who I think it is.
In reply to olddirtydoggy:
So who is he? And what are his qualifications?
If it is all kosher then revealing names can't hurt. Can it?
> Hahaha I don't believe it! I know exactly who is behind this. He's a fully qualified instructor based nearby and thats all I'm saying. I remember him telling me he was setting this up back around Feb time and that he was talking to the NT about how it would work. Thanks for the pics, I was wondering if he'd pull it off. On a side note he's a really great guy and I'm surprised it's caused a problem if it is who I think it is.
So who is he? And what are his qualifications?
If it is all kosher then revealing names can't hurt. Can it?
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In reply to muppetfilter:
We had a similar experience with the national trust earlier in the year at Lawrencefield. We'd been climbing at gingerbread then headed over to car park bay or whatever its called to find ropes rigged and gear left, we climbed for nearly hour before the group showed up and I would guess the gear had been left hanging alot longer than that. We mentioned this to the organisers but they didn't care and just said this was an organised activity with the national trust and seemed to think that gave them priority. We stayed in the bay for a couple more climbs then left.
We had a similar experience with the national trust earlier in the year at Lawrencefield. We'd been climbing at gingerbread then headed over to car park bay or whatever its called to find ropes rigged and gear left, we climbed for nearly hour before the group showed up and I would guess the gear had been left hanging alot longer than that. We mentioned this to the organisers but they didn't care and just said this was an organised activity with the national trust and seemed to think that gave them priority. We stayed in the bay for a couple more climbs then left.
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In reply to olddirtydoggy:
There is no climbing qualification that covers rigging tensioned line systems for use by clients.
There is no climbing qualification that covers rigging tensioned line systems for use by clients.
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In reply to muppetfilter:
Its private land. The National Trust can do what they like with it. Whilst that dose not condone the behavior of a select group of people nor does it dilute your frustration I think in hindsight you all need to get a grip and maybe get out more. I am pretty sure Millstone is a stones throw away from Lawrence field.
How many of you ranting on hear have been so vocal about the displacements of civilians in Syria or the impending doom we the majority of the UK will be in once Theresa May gets here feet under the carpet. I suspect not so. But an instructor putting up a slack line in our free society causes out rage, LMAO. This is literally an example of all that is wrong in our society.
This is the definition of a first world problem seriously!
Its private land. The National Trust can do what they like with it. Whilst that dose not condone the behavior of a select group of people nor does it dilute your frustration I think in hindsight you all need to get a grip and maybe get out more. I am pretty sure Millstone is a stones throw away from Lawrence field.
How many of you ranting on hear have been so vocal about the displacements of civilians in Syria or the impending doom we the majority of the UK will be in once Theresa May gets here feet under the carpet. I suspect not so. But an instructor putting up a slack line in our free society causes out rage, LMAO. This is literally an example of all that is wrong in our society.
This is the definition of a first world problem seriously!
Post edited at 20:40
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In reply to Marc Langley:
Yet for all your sanctimony, you choose to spend your time reading through the thread and composing a reply. This is the definition of irony.
> How many of you ranting on hear have been so vocal about the displacements of civilians in Syria or the impending doom we the majority of the UK will be in once Theresa May gets here feet under the carpet. I suspect not so. But an instructor putting up a slack line in our free society causes out rage, LMAO. This is literally an example of all that is wrong in our society.
> This is the definition of a first world problem seriously!
Yet for all your sanctimony, you choose to spend your time reading through the thread and composing a reply. This is the definition of irony.
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In reply to Ian Hinkins:
Tensioned line rigging is not on the MIA sylabus .
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://leeaint.com/i...
Tensioned line rigging is not on the MIA sylabus .
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://leeaint.com/i...
Post edited at 22:19
In reply to Helen Bach:
Ditto.
Ditto.
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In reply to muppetfilter:
Hi, Whilst to a degree my heart sinks when I come across groups at crags, in this instance it sounds like they were just "doing stuff". NT owns the land, NT allows climbing for all to take place, respect that.
In essence you were bringing a group yourself. Did you plan well? What was plan B? Yarncliff would offer a similar day for novices. Millstone has some easy offerings without even moving the car.
I understand the disappointment you would have felt after the long drive. But it does seem your angst appears proportional to the distance of your drive. I guess what I am saying is: plan to have a nice days climbing, venue, grades and routes can, and at times need to be flexible. Take a "locals" perspective on venue.
Better groups are here and Yarncliff than elsewhere imho.
Wayne
Hi, Whilst to a degree my heart sinks when I come across groups at crags, in this instance it sounds like they were just "doing stuff". NT owns the land, NT allows climbing for all to take place, respect that.
In essence you were bringing a group yourself. Did you plan well? What was plan B? Yarncliff would offer a similar day for novices. Millstone has some easy offerings without even moving the car.
I understand the disappointment you would have felt after the long drive. But it does seem your angst appears proportional to the distance of your drive. I guess what I am saying is: plan to have a nice days climbing, venue, grades and routes can, and at times need to be flexible. Take a "locals" perspective on venue.
Better groups are here and Yarncliff than elsewhere imho.
Wayne
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In reply to Marc Langley:
Possibly true, but they would do well to remember that many of their members are climbers
> Its private land. The National Trust can do what they like with it
Possibly true, but they would do well to remember that many of their members are climbers
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In reply to Simon Caldwell: the NT are not a conventional landowner. They have a more complicated remit than farmer bloggs of hathersage.
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In reply to Andy Say:
I put it in inverted commas because I question whether people who abuse and misuse trees in such a way should have any qualifications and insurance invalidated.
> P.S. I note "instructors" in inverted commas. Either they are or they aren't.
I put it in inverted commas because I question whether people who abuse and misuse trees in such a way should have any qualifications and insurance invalidated.
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In reply to olddirtydoggy:
Doesn't seem a great guy to a number of people - go on, name and shame.
> On a side note he's a really great guy
Doesn't seem a great guy to a number of people - go on, name and shame.
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In reply to Marc Langley:
It would seem, as is normal in this country, that a majority of MP's were voted into office for the incumbent party of government.
We therefore need to wait until the next general election to make our opinions known as to whether or not we, the electorate, want a change. This is democracy.
If you are so sure that we are facing impending doom, then why not leave Great Britain for a country that you believe is governed in a manner that suits you.
As for Syria - I (and I would imagine everyone else on UKC) personally can have no sway over ISIS, but I (we) do believe that we can affect the BMC (or CB !).
It would seem, as is normal in this country, that a majority of MP's were voted into office for the incumbent party of government.
We therefore need to wait until the next general election to make our opinions known as to whether or not we, the electorate, want a change. This is democracy.
If you are so sure that we are facing impending doom, then why not leave Great Britain for a country that you believe is governed in a manner that suits you.
As for Syria - I (and I would imagine everyone else on UKC) personally can have no sway over ISIS, but I (we) do believe that we can affect the BMC (or CB !).
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In reply to muppetfilter:
I can't see that the tree is rigged in anyway in your photos. Am I missing something?
I can't see that the tree is rigged in anyway in your photos. Am I missing something?
In reply to muppetfilter:
Agreed.
So you were a group of eight? Half of whom were novices?
Arguments are bad aren't they? Heat of the moment exchanges rarely shed a lot of light. It's worth just noting that they said you 'might' want to climb somewhere else rather than 'sod off we've got this bit booked'.
Sensible.
Nice to hear. People with qualifications can be so nice, can't they?
Now we're talking! Is it the location that bothers you or the fact that they couldn't present you with a file of paperwork? (Presumably every time you get in a taxi you inspect the drivers hackney carriage licence, his driving license and demand the paper counterpart to check previous convictions?)
> Yesterday I had a rather disapointing experience at Lawrencefield.
Agreed.
> I arrived at the crag around 12Oclock with my partner and six friends
So you were a group of eight? Half of whom were novices?
> (red rag bull moment) This is when I lost it, for which I admit I was in the wrong .
Arguments are bad aren't they? Heat of the moment exchanges rarely shed a lot of light. It's worth just noting that they said you 'might' want to climb somewhere else rather than 'sod off we've got this bit booked'.
> We weren't the only group to walk away from the main area yesterday.
Sensible.
> We moved to roadside Bay which had an SPSA assessment and another Instructed group who politely chatted to us and moved their ropes off routes once they had finished allowing everybody to use the crag .... this is how I would hope it should be.
Nice to hear. People with qualifications can be so nice, can't they?
> I do have concerns over the rigging of a tensioned line in this location , during our discussion the National Trust representative admitted she had seen neither designs for the system, a risk assessment nor method statement but simply assumed that the company she hired was competent yet she had seen no prior written safety assessments . (I will be contacting the National Trust about this)
Now we're talking! Is it the location that bothers you or the fact that they couldn't present you with a file of paperwork? (Presumably every time you get in a taxi you inspect the drivers hackney carriage licence, his driving license and demand the paper counterpart to check previous convictions?)
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In reply to fred99:
Are you suggesting that you can't "instruct" without an award
> I put it in inverted commas because I question whether people who abuse and misuse trees in such a way should have any qualifications and insurance invalidated.
Are you suggesting that you can't "instruct" without an award
In reply to smithaldo:
I assumed that it was down to my lack of a pair of glasses
> I can't see that the tree is rigged in anyway in your photos. Am I missing something?
I assumed that it was down to my lack of a pair of glasses
In reply to fred99:
Fred,
You said 'I know the ones in question, and would never put anything on them anywhere except at absolute ground level.' So YOU name and shame rather than inviting their mates to do so.
Fred,
You said 'I know the ones in question, and would never put anything on them anywhere except at absolute ground level.' So YOU name and shame rather than inviting their mates to do so.
In reply to timjones:
you can, but probably shouldn't do commercially. i dont know many people that have the appropriate insurances just in case they take a group zip lining
you can, but probably shouldn't do commercially. i dont know many people that have the appropriate insurances just in case they take a group zip lining
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In reply to timjones:
The rope running to the right was rigged about 5ft up the silver birch, a quick word with any tree surgeon will confirm that a tree with roots in 12" of soil on a ledge with roots exposed and partial bark damage isn't the strongest anchor to put a potentially large lateral load onto.
Andy Say, Lots of Taxis display licenses and plates on the Bumper.
If I was taking responsibility for 12 childrens wellbeing on a potentially dangerous activity I would want evidence that the activity had adequately been assessed and planned thoroughly.
I work in heavy industry and we love a bit of pre task planning, it stops people getting killed and injured. Things like barriering off underneath a suspended load or potential dropped objects. As you are aware a number of incidents have occurred involving outdoor pursuits where accidents have been caused by poor planning and pre activity risk assessing ,Lime Bay being the worst I know of.
I would be interested to know wether a temporary zipline comes under LOLER regulations for a complicated Lift thus necessitating a written lift plan under UK law ?
The rope running to the right was rigged about 5ft up the silver birch, a quick word with any tree surgeon will confirm that a tree with roots in 12" of soil on a ledge with roots exposed and partial bark damage isn't the strongest anchor to put a potentially large lateral load onto.
Andy Say, Lots of Taxis display licenses and plates on the Bumper.
If I was taking responsibility for 12 childrens wellbeing on a potentially dangerous activity I would want evidence that the activity had adequately been assessed and planned thoroughly.
I work in heavy industry and we love a bit of pre task planning, it stops people getting killed and injured. Things like barriering off underneath a suspended load or potential dropped objects. As you are aware a number of incidents have occurred involving outdoor pursuits where accidents have been caused by poor planning and pre activity risk assessing ,Lime Bay being the worst I know of.
I would be interested to know wether a temporary zipline comes under LOLER regulations for a complicated Lift thus necessitating a written lift plan under UK law ?
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In reply to muppetfilter:
I think I now understand where you are coming from.
> The rope running to the right was rigged about 5ft up the silver birch, a quick word with any tree surgeon will confirm that a tree with roots in 12" of soil on a ledge with roots exposed and partial bark damage isn't the strongest anchor to put a potentially large lateral load onto.
> Andy Say, Lots of Taxis display licenses and plates on the Bumper.
> If I was taking responsibility for 12 childrens wellbeing on a potentially dangerous activity I would want evidence that the activity had adequately been assessed and planned thoroughly.
> I work in heavy industry and we love a bit of pre task planning, it stops people getting killed and injured. Things like barriering off underneath a suspended load or potential dropped objects. As you are aware a number of incidents have occurred involving outdoor pursuits where accidents have been caused by poor planning and pre activity risk assessing ,Lime Bay being the worst I know of.
> I would be interested to know wether a temporary zipline comes under LOLER regulations for a complicated Lift thus necessitating a written lift plan under UK law ?
I think I now understand where you are coming from.
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In reply to Andy Say:
I know the crag and the trees, NOT whoever rigged.
> Fred,
> You said 'I know the ones in question, and would never put anything on them anywhere except at absolute ground level.' So YOU name and shame rather than inviting their mates to do so.
I know the crag and the trees, NOT whoever rigged.
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In reply to timjones:
Not for financial gain, unless you do so without insurance.
As for instructing for free, to a fellow club member, that's always been the way of the world.
> Are you suggesting that you can't "instruct" without an award
Not for financial gain, unless you do so without insurance.
As for instructing for free, to a fellow club member, that's always been the way of the world.
In reply to fred99:
I think you ought to check up on your facts!
> Not for financial gain, unless you do so without insurance.
I think you ought to check up on your facts!
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In reply to fred99:
Complete bollocks.
> Not for financial gain, unless you do so without insurance.
Complete bollocks.
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In reply to timjones:
Could you please state how either an individual instructor or a company employing others could get insurance for this kind of thing without some kind of qualification being shown to the insurers.
Could you please state how either an individual instructor or a company employing others could get insurance for this kind of thing without some kind of qualification being shown to the insurers.
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In reply to fred99:
Well now, Fred. There is actually no law that says that anybody can't just rock up, without insurance, and offer a 'course' or 'instruction' UNLESS they fall foul of the AALA regulations i.e. offering paid activities within scope of the regulations to under 18's (with some caveats). There is no legal requirement for insurance as far as I am aware; though those instructors who wold like to keep their house tend to make sure they are properly covered. I had quite an epic tussle with someone offering abseiling, climbing and zip wires in the S.W. who had lied about their qualifications and their insurance cover. Trading Standards are the only relevant authority in these cases when someone is telling porkies.
What the law expects is that they will be 'competent' to offer whatever services they are offering. It is not necessary to hold specific qualifications to be deemed competent. HSE deems that there are 'four routes to competence'; one of which is to hold nationally recognised qualifications. There are a lot of activity companies who use staff without formal qualifications yet have comprehensive insurance AND an AALS license.
And unless you want the days of 'as for instructing for free, to a fellow club member, that's always been the way of the world' to die in a welter of paperwork I'd suggest you simply accept that competence is not necessarily determined by paper qualifications.
As for 'Are you suggesting that you can't "instruct" without an award ? 'Not for financial gain, unless you do so without insurance'. I'm afraid you are simply wrong. You might not like it but that is the way the world, currently, works.
Andy
> Could you please state how either an individual instructor or a company employing others could get insurance for this kind of thing without some kind of qualification being shown to the insurers.
Well now, Fred. There is actually no law that says that anybody can't just rock up, without insurance, and offer a 'course' or 'instruction' UNLESS they fall foul of the AALA regulations i.e. offering paid activities within scope of the regulations to under 18's (with some caveats). There is no legal requirement for insurance as far as I am aware; though those instructors who wold like to keep their house tend to make sure they are properly covered. I had quite an epic tussle with someone offering abseiling, climbing and zip wires in the S.W. who had lied about their qualifications and their insurance cover. Trading Standards are the only relevant authority in these cases when someone is telling porkies.
What the law expects is that they will be 'competent' to offer whatever services they are offering. It is not necessary to hold specific qualifications to be deemed competent. HSE deems that there are 'four routes to competence'; one of which is to hold nationally recognised qualifications. There are a lot of activity companies who use staff without formal qualifications yet have comprehensive insurance AND an AALS license.
And unless you want the days of 'as for instructing for free, to a fellow club member, that's always been the way of the world' to die in a welter of paperwork I'd suggest you simply accept that competence is not necessarily determined by paper qualifications.
As for 'Are you suggesting that you can't "instruct" without an award ? 'Not for financial gain, unless you do so without insurance'. I'm afraid you are simply wrong. You might not like it but that is the way the world, currently, works.
Andy
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In reply to fred99:
OK. I misunderstood.
But I hope you will agree that there is far to much 'shaming' on these forums with no linked 'naming'. How on earth can bad practice be addressed if folks are too nesh to actually say who was at fault?
> I know the crag and the trees, NOT whoever rigged.
OK. I misunderstood.
But I hope you will agree that there is far to much 'shaming' on these forums with no linked 'naming'. How on earth can bad practice be addressed if folks are too nesh to actually say who was at fault?
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