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In-situ draws in sport routes

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 sheppy 26 Jul 2016
Had a trip to Kilnsey on Saturday and was amazed by the number of routes which had lines of quickdraws in place but no one turnd up at the crag who owned them.
Is this becoming more common place? (found the same up on Tunnel wall last summer and was informed they had been in for weeks!)
Does anyone know the true purpose of this, can those projecting those routes not be bothered putting the draws in each visit or is it to have some form of "booking"of a particular line?
I certainly find it does put me off going on something when I see someone else has the "draws in"!
Also what is the etiquette regarding these draws.... Can anyone just use them?
What if they look like a pile of shite... I certainly guess not many are leaving their best in?
Can they be removed and your own put in?
What then? Left in a pile at the bottom, carefully replaced exactly as found or left hanging in a bundle on the first bolt?
Hands up here before "hypocrisy" is levelled... Iain had our draws in from Friday to saturday but only because we knew we would be out early next day and it was to save putting them back in but I certainly wouldnt have been keen to have left any if not going back on the next day.
Be keen to hear other views of this proliferating habit.
 1poundSOCKS 26 Jul 2016
In reply to sheppy:

> Does anyone know the true purpose of this, can those projecting those routes not be bothered putting the draws in each visit or is it to have some form of "booking"of a particular line?

Putting them in's usually the easy bit, taking them out is generally harder. Although I think there was a recent post about the farmer not liking them, so maybe they should really all be removed every time to ensure access is maintained. Never seen it as "booking" a line, but I have seen people trying this by other means, usually clipping their rope through the first bolt, then going off somewhere else to warm-up.

> I certainly find it does put me off going on something when I see someone else has the "draws in"!
> Also what is the etiquette regarding these draws.... Can anyone just use them?

Just use them.

> What if they look like a pile of shite... I certainly guess not many are leaving their best in?
> Can they be removed and your own put in?
> What then? Left in a pile at the bottom, carefully replaced exactly as found or left hanging in a bundle on the first bolt?

Maybe just deal with that when and if it happens?

> Hands up here before "hypocrisy" is levelled... Iain had our draws in from Friday to saturday but only because we knew we would be out early next day and it was to save putting them back in but I certainly wouldnt have been keen to have left any if not going back on the next day.

I think everybody has their own special reason why they can leave theirs in, but maybe we just all need to remove them?
 Misha 26 Jul 2016
In reply to sheppy:
Apparently the farmer has asked for them to be removed / kept to a minimum. We should respect that. I'd say overnight if coming back the next day is reasonable though. If they're in, just use them, unless they look knackered, same as with a bolt. (but a lot easier to replace).
 Chris Murray 26 Jul 2016
In reply to sheppy:

Crag swag?
3
 Luke01 27 Jul 2016
In reply to sheppy:

It's a funny one, I think it depends on the local ethic. At Ceuse for example there are so many routes with draws in that you could almost get away with not bringing any of your own. I've not seen it happenning in North Wales, but I've heard it's becoming more common in Yorkshire.

Personally I think they should come out if anyone else (walkers, passers by etc) can see them, but if not then is there an issue?

And yes, you can use them. No one has anymore right to a route than anyone else, regardless of who owns the draws.

My two cents, anyway.
1
 galpinos 27 Jul 2016
In reply to Misha:

> Apparently the farmer has asked for them to be removed / kept to a minimum.

Agreed

> We should respect that. I'd say overnight if coming back the next day is reasonable though.

This seems to contradict your first statement. As someone else said, everyone has their own reason for leaving THEIRS in.......

 UKB Shark 27 Jul 2016
In reply to sheppy:

> Be keen to hear other views of this proliferating habit.

Its an eyesore and there are safety issues - some less obvious than others.

A few crags are going the same way. The bulges above Raindogs at Malham are looking a mess but more out of sight. Someone put mailloned draws at Ansteys not so long ago which was especially hard of thinking given the corrosive effect of salty air.

On the bright side Raven Tor got cleaned up a few years ago and has stayed that way and looks tons better for it.

Get to work...


1
 Misha 27 Jul 2016
In reply to galpinos:
Well if they're there last thing and again first thing, it doesn't make much difference leaving them in overnight. As opposed to leaving them in the whole week till the next weekend.
 Ciro 28 Jul 2016
In reply to sheppy:

> What if they look like a pile of shite... I certainly guess not many are leaving their best in?
> Can they be removed and your own put in?

Leaving aside the specific issue of the landowner request at this crag, generally if you don't like the look of in-situ draws the easiest thing is to put a second draw in, and fold the suspect one in on itself (clipping the rope side krab into the bolt side one) so that it isn't in your way when clipping yours. That way you just unfold them as you remove yours, and nobody has been inconvenienced.

> What then? Left in a pile at the bottom, carefully replaced exactly as found or left hanging in a bundle on the first bolt?

I would be pretty annoyed if someone took my draws down and left them on the ground or hanging on the first draw for anyone to steal. I understand that's a risk you take when you leave your draws in, but I'd generally take the first draw out to deter a casual passer-by from lifting it and trust to the decency of other climbers not to pinch them... so far I've only been let down once (we had a bunch of routes stripped in Rodellar many moons ago)
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 galpinos 28 Jul 2016
In reply to Misha:

It just antagonises the farmer.
 innes 28 Jul 2016
In reply to Ciro:
> " the easiest thing is to put a second draw in, "

This can breakage of the loaded karabiner.
There's reported cases somewhere but I cant find them just now.

Not sure what the mechanism is - perhaps, something to do with leverage loads, as the krabs trapped against each other and don't get loaded vertically down the spine? Lots of possibilities and probably not very repeatable given all the variables.

I wouldn't recommend it though!
Post edited at 11:11
 FactorXXX 28 Jul 2016
In reply to Misha:

Well if they're there last thing and again first thing, it doesn't make much difference leaving them in overnight.

There's climbers first thing and then there's farmers first thing...
 Ciro 28 Jul 2016
In reply to innes:

> This can breakage of the loaded karabiner.

> There's reported cases somewhere but I cant find them just now.

> Not sure what the mechanism is - perhaps, something to do with leverage loads, as the krabs trapped against each other and don't get loaded vertically down the spine? Lots of possibilities and probably not very repeatable given all the variables.

> I wouldn't recommend it though!

Hmmm, interesting. Would love to see the reports if you can find it. I've always assumed that on a steep route there wouldn't be any problem either way, and on anything near vertical, as long as the loaded draw was placed behind the in-situ gear it would behave as normal.
 Misha 28 Jul 2016
In reply to FactorXXX:
That is also true.
 springfall2008 28 Jul 2016
In reply to sheppy:

On a related note, if the draws are pre-placed it certainly makes it easier to climb the route as:
1. You can clip the draw from lower down
2. You don't have to place the draw, so less time spent clinging on one handed.

So shouldn't pre-placed draws be considered a different accent style from placing your own?
4
 UKB Shark 29 Jul 2016
In reply to springfall2008:
Yes it is easier but rarely enough to warrant a different grade as bolts are placed in the easiest place to clip if equipped thoughtfully.

There is also always the option of skipping a tricky clip on the onsight.
Post edited at 08:43
 Mick Ward 29 Jul 2016
In reply to springfall2008:

> So shouldn't pre-placed draws be considered a different accent style from placing your own?

Hmm... thought the pinkpoint argument had been laid to rest circa 30 years ago.

Mick

 springfall2008 29 Jul 2016
In reply to Mick Ward:

Sorry I'm too young for that one.... From personal experience if I'm the second person to lead the route so the draws are already in I find it quite an advantage (maybe it's even mostly psychological).
OP sheppy 29 Jul 2016
In reply to Ciro:
I am a bit uncertain about putting two draws in the same bolt (depending on hanger type) as it can cause unusual loading/torqueing forces.
At a crag like Kilnsey the first bolt is usually so high that theft is not likely to be an issue if they were left in a bundle. However I also accept that its probably better ethics and friendlier to put the removed ones back in as you strip your own after the send or at days end.
The risk of theft from someone climbing the route is an obvious one and maybe why people are tempted to leave some substandard bits and pieces.
Although most of those insitu at Kilnsey looked from the ground to be fairly good tbh.
Post edited at 09:46
OP sheppy 29 Jul 2016
In reply to FactorXXX:

Great comment, so true, still laughing
OP sheppy 29 Jul 2016
In reply to springfall2008:

It does give an advantage Springfall but most consider a redpoint is valid if the draws are in and personally I think a flash (led clean with beta) is valid but not all might agree.
An on-sight is a different beasty and probably that has been discussed to death on other message threads.
 Carless 29 Jul 2016
In reply to Mick Ward:

Yep it was, but the main reason was we all decided to pretend it makes no difference (whereas we know it sometimes does)

That and the fact no-one could face the term pinkpoint
 UKB Shark 29 Jul 2016
In reply to sheppy:

Sounds like Seb Grieve is getting the ball rolling by taking the ones out of Indian Summer
 Martin Haworth 29 Jul 2016
In reply to FactorXXX:

There's farmers first thing, then there's climbers first thing, then there's ... Misha's first thing
 Ciro 29 Jul 2016
In reply to sheppy:

> The risk of theft from someone climbing the route is an obvious one and maybe why people are tempted to leave some substandard bits and pieces.

> Although most of those insitu at Kilnsey looked from the ground to be fairly good tbh.

I'm not sure I've ever come across a route that's been temporarily hung with particularly dodgy looking gear... after all, whoever dressed it is going to be falling on it too.

I guess it tends to be only worn perma-draws on steep stuff I'd put a second draw in, and I don't really see an issue with torquing the krab there. Or maybe a shared first bolt - if the climber on the other route doesn't mind.




 bpmclimb 30 Jul 2016
In reply to springfall2008:

> Sorry I'm too young for that one.... From personal experience if I'm the second person to lead the route so the draws are already in I find it quite an advantage (maybe it's even mostly psychological).

Of course it makes it a bit easier! But, to avoid over-complicating things, let's all just accept that routes stay in the same grade band whether draws in or not.
 Andy Say 30 Jul 2016
In reply to Mick Ward:

> Hmm... thought the pinkpoint argument had been laid to rest circa 30 years ago.

> Mick

Obviously just simmering away in the background.
1
 springfall2008 30 Jul 2016
In reply to bpmclimb:

> Of course it makes it a bit easier! But, to avoid over-complicating things, let's all just accept that routes stay in the same grade band whether draws in or not.

I'd totally agree, it's on the same lines as having some beta or suchlike - a different ascent style.
 UKB Shark 30 Jul 2016
In reply to springfall2008:
> I'd totally agree, it's on the same lines as having some beta or suchlike - a different ascent style.



It isn't because it isn't a commonly accepted distinction. It was once by some (the pinkpoint) but didn't gain traction as Mick alluded to.

Having beta and not having beta differentiates two commonly accepted styles (flash and an onsight). Having the draws in or out doesn't differentiate between two accepted ascent styles.

You can say that doing a route without the draws in place is harder or at a push an improvement in style but that doesn't make it a different style.

Given that bolts are placed or should be placed for maximum ease of clipping the difference in difficulty is minimal. That's not to say that minimal differences don't sometimes make the difference between success and failure.

At the time of the evolving styles of sport climbing (anyone remember the redcross?) Seb Grieve sent up the the inherent subjectivity of the game rules by introducing a new style - the hairpoint. For a successful hair point you had to carry a comb in your pocket and at least once on the redpoint stop and comb your hair. Obviously a more stylish ascent!


Post edited at 19:38
 Steve Perry 30 Jul 2016
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

> Never seen it as "booking" a line, but I have seen people trying this by other means, usually clipping their rope through the first bolt, then going off somewhere else to warm-up.

If I wanted to do a route and there was a rope in the first clip but no one at the route, I'd just pull it down and climb.

 springfall2008 30 Jul 2016
In reply to ukb shark:

I fully agree that your comments represent the status quo. All I'm saying is that it can in some places make a different between success and failure, and that for a lot of the really hard routes (ie F8 and beyond) I don't think they have ever been climbed without pre-placed draws for a good reason.
 Pumbaa1987 30 Jul 2016
In reply to springfall2008: everything is graded with the draws in

1
 Misha 30 Jul 2016
In reply to Martin Haworth:

> There's farmers first thing, then there's climbers first thing, then there's ... Misha's first thing

Ha ha ha, so true! I do get up early for winter and Alpine. The rock can wait.
 1poundSOCKS 31 Jul 2016
In reply to Steve Perry:

> If I wanted to do a route and there was a rope in the first clip but no one at the route, I'd just pull it down and climb.

I usually ask, the owner is usually close by.
 Steve Perry 01 Aug 2016
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

> I usually ask, the owner is usually close by.

What if they say no, I'm gonna get on it later?

 UKB Shark 01 Aug 2016
In reply to Steve Perry:

> What if they say no, I'm gonna get on it later?


Not been an issue in my experience. Fortunately a sharing attitude has evolved at busy sport crags so everybody gets a good good day on their preferred routes. At places like Malham catwalk and the Cornice people regularly interchange belayers and even offer others to use their ropes especially on the warm ups. Putting someone elses quickdraws when you strip a route is common too.
 1poundSOCKS 01 Aug 2016
In reply to Steve Perry:

> What if they say no, I'm gonna get on it later?

That's up to you to decide, probably best to deal with it when it happens, rather than try to invent worst case scenarios to justify pulling the rope. Most people are happy to cooperate, and it generally keeps things cordial.

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