UKC

Any safety reason not to use a VF kit as a cow's tail for clipping in to anchors on a multipitch route?

I can see this could be a bit faffy, as a VF kit is bulkier than e.g. a larks-footed sling + locking krab, but potentially also safer, as there's less risk of it snapping if you fell on it from above the anchors.

In reply to humptydumpty:

How about a purcell prusik?

In reply to humptydumpty:


No.

But do you normally clip yourself to anchors rather tying into them with the rope?

In reply to humptydumpty:

There also a risk of the VF kit extending during a heavy leader fall and you dropping the leader as you've just been pulled off your belay ledge... not sure why you'd want or need to do this?

In reply to beardy mike:


Was thinking along the same lines myself. Plus, you'd then be left part way up a multi pitch route with two VERY long cows tails. Could be interesting!

In reply to humptydumpty:
I carry a cowstail tied out of dynamic rope when I know I'll be abseiling a few times (figure 8 to attach to my harness [no stopper], alpine butterfly in the middle, barrel knot with an autolocker on the end to attach to anchors). Cowstails made using knots abosrb dynamic forces much better than sewn cowstails(according to recent tests), and are cheaper as well. It's bulkier and heavier than a sling, but it does give me peace of mind when at anchors.
My only problem, is that it's an offcut of a rope that I still use (so it's the same colour), which means I have to be extra careful when I'm untying a figure of 8 from my harness. That problem is temporary, as I'll be chopping that rope down again soon to be a grit crag only rope.

Edit: to be clear, I only use the cowstail for the abseiling part. It's normally stowed out of the way.

In reply to SenzuBean:


This is exactly what I use normally, except with a normal re-threaded figure of 8. I can't work out where the harness would attach to a non-rethreaded figure of 8 - as far as I know that's just a stopper-knot.

In reply to Andy Say:


Depends if the anchor is a bolt or not.

In reply to beardy mike:


Thanks Mike - interesting point. Although unless the leader fell before clipping the first piece, then he'd pull upwards and so wouldn't shock the VF kit, surely?

In reply to humptydumpty:

Why reinvent the wheel? Tie in with the rope, you have after all already dragged it up with you and it's perfectly suited to the task.
jk

In reply to humptydumpty:


Ah sorry, I meant to type "no stopper"! D'oh. I definitely use re-threaded.

In reply to humptydumpty:
On bolted stances then no real safety issue. But it is weight and a faff. Daisy chain and two light screwgates?

P.S. On a bolted stance why are you going to fall onto the anchors from above?

In reply to humptydumpty:
Yes, most of the time you are pulled upwards, but... why would you EVER need this though, if you are tied in with rope, it provides enough dynamic stretch to reduce the impact on the anchors, and you're not carrying a load of kit which is just extra bulk and faff for a compromised system. If you are clipped to bolts, unless they are rotten bolts, the anchors aren't going to fail. If you're at a trad belay, put in enough gear to never have the fear of it failing. If theres not enough to prevent the anchors from failing, MOVE to somewhere that does. You simply don't need a VF lanyard. It's the wrong piece of kit. If you really really want a lanyard, the Beal dynaclips do nicely, or Petzl now do an ajustable daisy made from dynamic rope. Standard pocketed daisys are simply not built for belays as the pockets are not rated at full strength so you'd effectively have the same problem in a big fall with the pockets zippering. If you go for a daisy look at th Metolius PAS system. But seriously - you're dragging around 50m of rope - use it!

In reply to beardy mike:

To be honest most folks on sport multi-pitch or bolted alpine stuff DON'T faff around with using the rope to attach to the anchors. You clip into one of the two linked bolts, whap a belay device on in guide mode and away you go. The climber is therefore independent of the belay system and they, and their attachment don't get any shock load.

In reply to Andy Say:


Dunno, why would anyone ever do it at any anchor? Dicking about trying to make space for partners or other groups on the ledge? Reaching up to clip the first bolt of the next pitch before being properly belayed?

In reply to beardy mike:

Mike, I really appreciate the advice, although it is orthogonal to my original question.



You can't tie in with a rope if you're leading the next pitch as well (e.g. block-leading, or leading the whole route).



I was actually thinking that if I already had this kit with me on a route, would there be any reason not to use it.



Or rotten rock, etc.



That's not always an option, is it? I'm sure many of us have ended up with the occasional anchor that we'd rather the second didn't fall on.



See above.

In reply to humptydumpty:


Yes you can! Your second comes up and ties in and then you untie and lead.

In reply to Andy Say:

Yes, that's true, sorry! I was thinking about building anchors with the rope, which is clearly not relevant.

I actually find this practice a bit annoying - when the second arrives at the stance and wants to tie in with the rope, the belayer needs to give him slack to do this, while at the same time keeping him safe.

In reply to humptydumpty:


Life's a bitch, sometimes.

Ever thought of paying out a meter or so and then tying a bloody great knot in the brake rope? You can have your sarnies then.

In reply to Andy Say:


Yeah, but this doesn't always make you popular on a hanging stance. Plus I've probably had the sarnies while they were on the way up. At this point I want to be shifting gear on to their harness and trying to get them on the move before they notice how uninviting the next pitch looks.

In reply to humptydumpty:
OK, so if you are block leading you can still tie in with the rope. Get yourself a cordlette or extra slings, build your belay with slings to produce a strong point, tie in to that strong point with rope. When your second arrives, tie them to the strong point, you bugger off. Simples. It's a very efficient way of belaying andf you still use the dynamic properties of rope and knots. You can even dare I say it just clip in with a rope cowstail if you want to keep the climbing rope out of the equation.

As for rotten rock, you are right. That said, I can honestly say I have never NEEDED to belay on rotten rock in the 25+ years I've been climbing. I either just ignore what the guide says and find somewhere better, or if I'm unsure, just keep putting gear in until I'm happy. I made some very dubious belays early on in my climbing but concluded that was dumb and unnecessary and desisted. Sure, that might not be the case if you purposely go and climb some horror deathshow put up by Mick Fowler on some bird shit covered pile of choss, but that's not normal behaviour and from the question I'm guessing that's not what you intend to do. Even if it induces ropedrag, my second has to move with me for a few metres or some other nastiness, I'd say that's still preferable to a belay which might fall out!

In reply to humptydumpty:


You can do that too, I've been doing it for years and it's frankly trivial.
jk

In reply to jkarran:


Well done, it certainly is, but it's not what's being discussed here. I misunderstood what was meant by "tying in with the rope" further up the thread.

In reply to humptydumpty:

Make your mind up, man! Are you 'block leading' or not?

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with eating your sarnies on a hanging stance suspended from bolts. There is something wrong about eating your sarnies whilst you are supposed to be belaying your partner. Unless you're a guide.

In reply to Andy Say:

What you mean because then you're god and you'll be able to save them by magic?

In reply to beardy mike:

Presumably because guides can (a) use a belay plate in Guide Mode, and (b) eat a sandwich one-handed.

In reply to humptydumpty:

Haha - you've not heard that guides are god? They can do anything

In reply to humptydumpty:


(c) Unwrap a Kit Kat wearing Dachstein Mitts.

In reply to Andy Say:

You see? God. End of.