UKC

On an AD+ 5a Is the 5a a sport grade or something more complicated?
Thanks

In reply to zimpara:

It's not necessarily a sport route but, yes, it's the french "sport" grade for that route.

In reply to zimpara:

It should be the technical grade of the crux, using French sport grade (at least that's what it is in the French Pyrenees which supposedly use the same system). Take it a bit like a trad grade: adjectival + technical.

Two strange things in this case for me:
- 5a is not used very much nowadays in my experience rather V+ or Vsup: in roman and '+' instead of 'a','b','c')
- 5a sounds a bit harsh for an AD+?

It might depend of the guide book writer though, I've seen some weird stuff in older books...

In reply to drolex:


Really? I'd guess he's looking at routes in the Aiguille rouges (from recent posts)?

For example:

Mic est maousse (AD+ 5a)

In reply to galpinos:

Well in my limited experience that sounds a bit hard. I guess if the approach is short and easy and the route not very long nor exposed, that would make sense - but in that case what's the point of the alpine grade? The ridges around AD+ I have done were at most IV+, and the more proper climbs V+ and above were always at least D+. Maybe the long approaches, maybe the exposition, maybe the lack of pro, maybe the Pyrenees are the land of soft climbers (please not that one). Oh well, what do I know?

In reply to drolex:

I'd say that kind of grade ends up being used for a "rock climb in the alps" where a rock grade on it's own, eg. the 5a would be sufficient as the alpine grade doesn't add much. In the case of the route mentioned, the approach is a walk downhill from the top of the Brevent lift. The only route I've done up there is the Frisson Roche, Frison-Roche (TD- 6a) which is TD- 6a but the only relevant bit is the 6a really.

The routes your talking about are actual alpine routes where the difficulty of the entire outing pushing the alpine grade up relative to the rock grade.

In reply to galpinos:

East Ridge (AD+ 5a)

In reply to Martin Haworth:

You win......

In reply to galpinos:

Thanks, What are french 5as like compared to uk 5as?

In reply to zimpara:

Easier. The climbing would be more similar to UK 4b

In reply to Michael Gordon:

4b sport or 4b trad?

In reply to zimpara:

UK 4b means trad 4b

In reply to zimpara:


Generally, UK sport grades aren't going to be different to French sport grades because it's the same grading system, which originated in France!

You need to understand the nature of the route. Is it a proper Alpine route on trad gear (may be with bolted belays), and a complex/glaciated approach and descent, or is it a bolted route with a straightforward approach and descent (which could be by abseil of course)? Confusingly, Alpine grades are sometimes given to what are essentially sport routes.

In reply to Martin Haworth:

East ridge of what? I have spent 10 mns trying to find what and discover it is the Pyramide de Tacul which I have done twice. This perversion on UKC of Rebuffat's book is a disgrace. In the first place it is the E Ridge of the Pyramide du Tacul and not Mont Blanc de Tacul, and second there is no numerical grading. With modern gear it has rightly been brought down to AD+ And someone has given a technical grading as an indication of 5a which is also about right. But it is a very simple outing ( Rébuffat no 20) well within the standards of a tolerably competent alpinist for an early objective and is no more than a minor satellite of Mont Blanc de Tacul. 5a by no means equates with V and certainly not V+ in the traditional Alpine grading, usually pretty b... hard and an invitation to pull on the gear.

In reply to jcw:
I was just giving an example of a route that was the grade they were discussing and which is an Alpine route not a rock route on the Aguille Rouge. It's an excellent route, when I did it in the 1980s I think it was graded IV. I was very happy to repeat it this year with my son who normally just does indoor bouldering.
My personal view is it warrants D- as an Alpine grade and IV, either way it's a great one day route.

In reply to Michael Gordon:


I think that's pretty debatable. I've certainly found some supposed 5+ routes to be easily equivalent to a lengthy Grit HVS. Take grade comparison tables with a grain of salt.

In reply to Martin Haworth:
Absolutely correct. Which is why these attempts to Improve on R£buffat are a perversion.

In reply to jcw:


In fairness it is listed on the crag page as on the Pyramide du Tacul (if you have left-to-right ordering so you see the dividers), although you could contact the moderator of the 'crag' with any proposed improvements (presumably adding Pyramide du Tacul to the name for example).

In reply to andrewmcleod:
Yes, but my real gripe is that whoever drew up that list changed the routes R£buffat selected, adding things and deleting others.

In reply to planetmarshall:


That's about right though isn't it? F5+ is F5c which is usually equated to UK 5a, ie HVS. Then F5 is F5b or UK 4c; and F5- or F5a is UK 4b.

In reply to planetmarshall:

He said 5a though, so more like 5 not 5+