UKC

Washed jackets - killed DWR?

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 mcawle 09 Aug 2016
Hi everyone,

I recently washed two jackets - a Patagona Torrentshell and a Marmot "Minimalist" jacket (Gore-tex, I think paclite).

I followed the care labels on the jackets, and used powdered (non-bio) detergent. I then tumble-dried them. Care label advises to use powdered detergent.

The next time the jackets got rained on, the outer layer saturated immediately - DWR appeared not to be working at all.

I then re-washed with Nikwax tech wash and re-proofed with their tx.direct wash-in - then tumble-dried. Tested them in the shower and showed marginal improvement (some beading), but still a lot of saturation.

I've since re-washed and re-proofed multiple times. The beading is better but there is still a degree of saturation.

We then got rained on (light-moderate rain, for maybe an hour), and the beading fails within the first 5-10 minutes. Outer face of the jackets is still saturating.

I'm in touch with Patagonia and Marmot about this, but has anyone here had a similar experience and/or can advise what's wrong? I'll be gutted if I've done for them both.

Cheers,

Michael
In reply to mcawle:

I use tech-wash or pure soap flakes rather than a non-bio detergent. I reproof with wash-in if no liner or spray if lined.

Some say ironing will help the beading if iron is warm, but not too hot. Helps spread the treatment out and helps it stick to fabric, apparently.

I have neither been bold enough to try that, or felt I needed to.

HTH
 Timmd 09 Aug 2016
In reply to mcawle:
Did you rinse out the tray and things for the washing machine first?

I've not washed by goretex yet (my Mum has in the past), but I gather you're supposed to do a rinse wash or something to wash out the tray which may have stuff in which can be harmful for the beading (not harmful - counter productive).

I'm starting to think a hot cloth in the bath may be the method I'll try for my goretex.
Post edited at 16:06
 galpinos 09 Aug 2016
In reply to mcawle:

All is not lost; your jackets are now nice and clean.

First, run a rinse cycle on your machine to ensure you’re got ALL the detergent out. Then, re-wash with soap flakes/tech wash to get all the detergent off the jackets. Then re-wash with re-proofer or use spray on re-proofer. Then tumble dry on warm. (I know the brands now say this isn’t required but it makes me feel like it works better so I do it regardless)

Sorted.
OP mcawle 09 Aug 2016
Thanks everyone for your prompt replies!

I have already re-washed (with tech wash) and re-proofed (with the tx.direct) multiple times, but admittedly without having done a preliminary rinse.

In reply to galpinos:
Galpinos - when you say run a rinse cycle on the machine, I assume you mean without the jackets? Then add jackets and re-wash. Then re-proof. Then tumble dry. Correct?
In reply to mcawle:

> Galpinos - when you say run a rinse cycle on the machine, I assume you mean without the jackets?

You need a service wash; read the washing machine manual. Usually a boil wash, sometimes with machine cleaner.

What you're trying to do it remove all traces of detergent from the water path in the machine; that means dispenser tray, pipework, drum, etc. The service wash will only deal with the drum; you'll have to clean the rest out yourself. That's one reason why I use an in-drum liquid detergent, as it leaves no residue in the soap dispenser or water path.

Over-proofing with Nikwax can also be a problem (strangely). Get over to the Nikwax website for washing guides.

Tumble drying with Nikwax reproofer isn't strictly necessary, but I think it prolongs the life of the treatment, by encouraging the proofer into the fibres.

 climbwhenready 09 Aug 2016
In reply to mcawle:
> In reply to galpinos:

> Galpinos - when you say run a rinse cycle on the machine, I assume you mean without the jackets? Then add jackets and re-wash. Then re-proof. Then tumble dry. Correct?

Yes. On my machine, I take out the detergent drawer and wash it in the sink to get rid of the detergent. Take a damp towel to the hole where the drawer goes to get rid of the detergent build up there. Replace drawer. I then run a cycle which runs lots of water through the detergent drawer and fills the drum to about 2/3 full, then when the drum is full like that I switch it to drain and get rid of the water - saves waiting around for a full cycle to run. Obligatory 2 minute wait. (Why do they do that????) Then put in garments, tech wash, repeat with tx.direct if doing a full reproof.

Fundamentally detergents (including non-bio) strip off the DWR. If you're trying to reproof but there's still detergent being picked up, it's not going to work. The "empty" run you do should have minimal bubbles; if the water's bubbly, there's detergent there.

HTH?

(edit: you don't need to tumble dry tx.direct to activate it. A lot of people will chime in to say that you do... but you don't, nikwax say you don't, and it will keep you dry if you don't. But tumble it if you want.)
Post edited at 18:45
OP mcawle 09 Aug 2016
Right, understood. So one possible cause of my issue is that there's residual detergent and I'm effectively re-stripping as I'm washing.

But then why would the manufacturers say to use powdered detergent in the first place!? Boggles the mind.

Is there any advantage to skipping the machine wash completely and just washing and re-proofing by hand?

Thanks again.

Michael
In reply to mcawle:

Yeah mate I've had this before. Tbh I hardly ever wash my waterproofs. I just don't think gore tex is the same once it's been washed.

I wash them rarely when they really need it and with tek wash.
In reply to mcawle:

Also tumble drying- it re sets the size of the gore tex holes (apparently) so worth doing if you have one- I've always noticed a good difference after. Tumble dry.
 andrewmc 10 Aug 2016
In reply to climbwhenready:

> (edit: you don't need to tumble dry tx.direct to activate it. A lot of people will chime in to say that you do... but you don't, nikwax say you don't, and it will keep you dry if you don't. But tumble it if you want.)

I have heard it said that tumble drying does help even with Nikwax, but they don't say that because their selling point is that you don't have to.
 balmybaldwin 10 Aug 2016
In reply to mcawle:

It's not so much the detergent you need to get rid of its the fabric softener that is hard to get rid and that isn't good for water proofs (or most other tech fabric)
1
 Timmd 10 Aug 2016
In reply to balmybaldwin:
Would you imagine that it'd be gone from a washing machine after 3 years of using one without any?

I moved into my home and the washer came with it, and I've never used any softener. My towels seem to come out soft enough without any.
Post edited at 00:52
 Simon Caldwell 10 Aug 2016
In reply to Timmd:

I never use any fabric softener. I run an empty boil wash through before cleaning waterproofs. I use techwash, and reproof afterwards. The result is a waterproof that no longer beads, and is a shadow of its former self when it comes to being waterproof. The only thing I haven't tried is tumble drying, as we have no suitable place to put one and have no real need anyway.

So I put off washing any waterproofs for as long as possible, and then do it by hand in lukewarm water. This is the only way I've ever found of prolonging their life beyond the first wash.
 99ster 10 Aug 2016
In reply to mcawle:
I followed this advice from Arcteryx (which will be the same for any modern GoreTex type fabrics) & used Grangers techwash + an extra rinse & used Grangers re-proofing spray with the clothes still wet out of the wash machine (the one they make that specifically requires tumble drying) as they advised in this video and have had really good results:

youtube.com/watch?v=I4N6ZuKTZ_c&

You have to dry the clothing using a tumble dryer (the Bosch model I have even has a specific setting for this) or else you'll never properly restore the DWR. Considering that a new tumble dryer can be half the cost of a new GoreTex Pro jacket then it's worth the cost if you've invested a lot in technical clothing. Of course, there is no big label on the expensive jacket you buy to tell you this!

The wash-in products & ones that claim you don't need to tumble dry...they just don't work.

Any fabric softeners or washing powders/liquids with a strong scent will ruin your expensive technical clothing as they strip the DWR then coat the fabric with a chemical film that stops any new DWR from binding to the fabric. You can get washing machine cleaner (in the same aisle in Tesco as the washing powder) that will clean any residue out of your machine.
Post edited at 13:46
m0unt41n 10 Aug 2016
In reply to mcawle:

I long ago learnt that the clothing manufacturers use of words like "breathable" and "waterproof" were as accurate and reliable as Tony Blair's "Trust me" and George Osborne "all in it together" and Jeremy Corbyn "Leadership". As are Nikwax and Proofing manufacturers claims.

You can have Breathable or you can have Waterproof but you can't have both unless you stand completely still and don't move a muscle every time it rains.


In reply to mcawle:

Washing detergents and softeners don't generally 'strip the DWR'. They, like DWR treatments, are surfactants, intended to change the surface tension of the water. DWRs increase the surface tension, causing beading, detergents reduce the surface tension, causing wicking.

Mix the two together, and guess what happens? Yes; they cancel each other out.

Traces of detergent can usually be removed by a pure soap wash, largely restoring the original DWR. But you do need to make sure your rinse water isn't then putting traces of detergent back, due to having a water path clogged up with lumps of caked-on washing powder...

Any mechanical washing reduces the effectiveness of the DWR, since it mechanically abrades the DWR from the fabric. This would happen even if you used a pure water wash.

Washing properly is generally good for a DWR, since it removes the body oil and dirt from the garment, both of which reduce the effectiveness of the DWR, causing wetting out.
 Timmd 10 Aug 2016
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

> I never use any fabric softener. I run an empty boil wash through before cleaning waterproofs. I use techwash, and reproof afterwards. The result is a waterproof that no longer beads, and is a shadow of its former self when it comes to being waterproof. The only thing I haven't tried is tumble drying, as we have no suitable place to put one and have no real need anyway.

> So I put off washing any waterproofs for as long as possible, and then do it by hand in lukewarm water. This is the only way I've ever found of prolonging their life beyond the first wash.

That's really informative, thanks.
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Empty boil wash a good idea beforehand- I wouldn't have thought have that. Get rid of any Fabric softener etc.
 99ster 11 Aug 2016
In reply to captain paranoia:

> Washing detergents and softeners don't generally 'strip the DWR'. They, like DWR treatments, are surfactants, intended to change the surface tension of the water. DWRs increase the surface tension, causing beading, detergents reduce the surface tension, causing wicking...

Thanks for the proper technical explanation! Very informative/helpful.

Do you know what the role is of tumble drying in the process?
 Toerag 11 Aug 2016
In reply to mcawle:

If you regularly use washing products in the drawer of your machine the chances are that you won't get all the residues out. The easy way to tell is to try washing a woollen jumper with techwash in the machine after you've 'rinsed out' the machine - it'll come out covered in little blobs of techwash that's been turned funny by the detergent remnants in the machine.
We've never used the detergent drawer in our new machine for this reason, and washing things with techwash in the machine now actually works (as does handwashing in the bath, although the machine does seem to get things cleaner).
 Snowdave 11 Aug 2016
In reply to mcawle:

As I used to sell Nikwax most of the above advice is correct.

However note the following:-

Chose a setting which allows for more "soaking" & less bashing around the drum (see machine's instruction manual)

Lower the final spin speed to avoid damage to garments.

Due to the above the garments will come out "wetter" so line dry first until damp then tumble dry for final finishing.
 r1ch79 19 Aug 2016
In reply to mcawle:

dont wash them just stink

youre on a hill/mountain who gives a rats ass what you look/smell like

my missus wanted to wash my stuff cos it stank and I had to point out that these are not fashion items but technical componenents
5
 MG 19 Aug 2016
In reply to captain paranoia:

> You need a service wash; read the washing machine manual. Usually a boil wash, sometimes with machine cleaner.

Etc... !!

Do you lot do nothing but wash jackets!? I don't think I have ever washed a waterproof - it sort of happens naturally when you wear them in the rain.
2
OP mcawle 19 Aug 2016
In reply to mcawle:

Thank you everyone for the advice and comments. Sorry for my late reply; busy busy and just looking at this again now.

I'm going to try a hand wash in the bath with tech wash, then tumble dry (without re-proofing) and see. Will report back.

P.s. - main motivation for washing is to get sweat/dirt out, rather than hillside aesthetics
 nufkin 19 Aug 2016
In reply to wannabeagoat:

> these are not fashion items but technical components

I use the same argument against the missus trying topping up the engine oil

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...