UKC

I was just hoping to find out if for MT award assessments such as the CWA they care if the second loop of the stopper knot is tied above or below the first loop of the stopper knot. I've always done it below the initial loop but the instructor on my CWA training said to go above when demonstrating it so since then I've used that method since. However, when I tied it like that on a session today the suppervising instuctor (who holds an SPA) told me to tie it the other way and told me you might fail an SPA assessment for tying it that way. I'd always thought it was a personal preferance thing since I've seen it 1/2 and 1/2.

In reply to michael90cr:

Just make sure it's tight against the bowline

In reply to michael90cr:
I don't know what you mean about above and below loops?
Can you link to a picture?


As far as I know your knot should look something like this.

http://media.rockfax.com/2011/11/Fo8.jpg

In reply to michael90cr:
I would say this is "wrong" because it's not near the knot and you could get your hand stuck in the extra loop. However the knot itself isn't wrong. http://cdn.instructables.com/FL2/J9QR/G612WFQ7/FL2J9QRG612WFQ7.LARGE.jpg

In reply to michael90cr:

More details here http://www.needlesports.com/content/knots-for-climbers.aspx#stop

In reply to michael90cr:

Work back towards the fig 8

In reply to marsbar:
hi I tried to take some pictures and I hope this helps
http://imgur.com/a/Cq0Fm

Ill try and explain clearer as well, so stopper knots are tied with two loops, after you go around the rope the first time this creates the inital loop, the second time you go around the rope should you go round the rope below or above where the inital loop is tied

In reply to jezb1:

Thanks to both you and Marsbar is there any particular reason why?

In reply to michael90cr:

I can't see how you could do it any other way than towards the F8, as if you did it the other way what you'd get wouldn't be that knot.

FWIW it's half a double fisherman's knot (there's no such thing as a single fisherman's, AIUI). Used by fishermen for joining fishing lines (and for making prussiks!)

In reply to michael90cr:

I wonder what your SPA would think if summertime suggested that a well dressed Fo8 with a long tail doesn't need a stopper knot

In reply to michael90cr:
Your OP is confusing people. But anyway,

Stopper knot is tied by taking the 2nd loop/wrap lower/back across the 1st.

If you make 2 turns then feed the tail in without doubling over, you get a half hitch with an odd spare loop in it. Which is not a fishermans. So it is senseless to demonstrate this way on an assesment.

In reply to michael90cr:

Now I get you.

The second loop goes nearer the figure of 8. Otherwise the rope doesn't make the cross over shape and it isn't the right knot.

In reply to timjones:

If you want a CWA you have to not get into that kind of thing....

In reply to timjones:
Doesn't even need to be a long tail, ~4 inches and it's fine. I read somewhere that the fig8 is triple redundant due to the knot design, stoppers aren't needed for it.

Yosemite finish is also way better than tying a stopper.

In reply to michael90cr:

I must admit, teaching now (as an MIA), I teach the use of a stopper less and less. I'm more concerned about the knot being properly tied and dressed.

In reply to marsbar:

I can think of more than one MIA that questions the obsession with stopper knots.

In reply to timjones:

I'm not disagreeing, but at that level you are tested on doing as you have been taught, correctly and consistently, not on questioning it.

In reply to marsbar:

I don't work on CWAs but I do on SPAs and I'd be more than happy with a candidate not using a stopper, I'd question them to understand their thinking, but wouldn't insist on a stopper.

In reply to marsbar:

"Rock Climbing: Essential Skills and Techniques" which is touted as the handbook for the scheme appears to recommend a stopper or a 25cm tail.

In reply to Neil Williams:


Of course there is, but it's just called a fisherman's (no 'single' necessary)!

In reply to jezb1:

Fair enough. You are way more qualified than me. I only ever did site specific indoor for indoor just before the CWA became a qualification. (I think CWA was based on these kinds of tests and became national instead of local?) My qualification being at a low level, and with a very specific and limited remit, we were expected to do what we had been shown, exactly as we were shown, belay safely, supervise others belaying, and know what to do and who to call and how if we had a problem. Thinking outside of what we were shown wasn't really encouraged, as a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. SPA is higher than I did, and I would expect thinking and reasoning at that level. Not totally sure about CWA, I think it's a little more than we did, but not much.

In reply to timjones:

I'm not disagreeing, but if you have an exam to do, it might be better to go with the way the examiner told you, regardless of there being alternative options.

In reply to michael90cr:

The lack of a stopper knot on a rethreaded figure of 8, is not going to cause you to fail a CWA or SPA assessment. The lack of background knowledge, understanding and the judgement required to make an appropriate decision will!

In reply to marsbar:


In that case I would suggest that you had a poor provider. As either a CWA or SPA holder you are expected to do your own thinking, as without that you can't make an appropriate decision, whether that is tying a knot or deciding how best to supervise a group etc.

Now not following the operating procedures for the venue or workplace, is a different thing all together, and can potentially land you in trouble, if something goes wrong.

In reply to marsbar:


Then you are not showing the ability to make your own decisions. When questioning a candidate on why they did something a particular way, I am always very unimpressed by the answer - I'm doing X because that is what I was shown on my training course. Shows a complete lack of understanding - these are the answers that I tend to get from individuals who have scrapped together the minimum amount of experience pre assessment.

In reply to Paul at work:

Like I said, the course I did was at a very low level.

In reply to marsbar:


Whatever level a course is pitched at a good instructor or teacher shouldn't excessively dumb things down IMO.

In reply to petestack:

What's it for?

In reply to michael90cr:

I agree with Jez and Paul.

However, sometimes the test for whether you need a stopper knot (ie the length of tail) is whether you can tie a stopper knot!

ie, if you have enough tail to tie one you prob don't need one but if you don't have enough tail to tie one you prob need one.

It would be stupid to tie one, decide you had enough tail and then undo it though!

In reply to 9WS9c3jps92HFTEp:

I used to say this myself but I don't think it's very accurate. I've seen various tail lengths suggested in the past but what I go for now is a 6" / 15cm tail, which is long enough to be safe, but not to get a standard stopper.

I've not climbed with a stopper on an 8 for years.

In reply to jezb1:

I prefer 17cm to be honest .

But as people are not sure what 6 inches is (men in particular) I tend to use the method I described to avoid any confusion. Therefore although it may be longer than actually required it stops it being too short.

However, as we both know, it is all subjective.

In reply to jezb1:

What route is your photo on? Guessing the added contrast make the holds look a million times better than in reality?

In reply to jezb1:

I've heard it quoted that one thing a stopper does on a F8[1] is ensure an appropriate amount of tail (with a bit of extra).

[1] On a bowline it (or a Yosemite finish or whatever) is of course a key part of the knot.

In reply to 9WS9c3jps92HFTEp:




It's all irrelevant when you have to improvise a harness anyway :p

In reply to Neil Williams:

Joining things end-to-end. Like double or triple fisherman's, but not as secure.

In reply to petestack:

Cheers.