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I know this is going to open a whole can of worms and has probably been debated many times, but what is the generally accepted reasons to headpoint a route and what grades is it acceptable to headpoint on.
I feel that no matter what the grade (E1 and above) if it has next to no protection or deckable it is acceptable for mere mortals headpoint however I wanted to see what the climbing community thought of headpoint ethics.
I feel that no matter what the grade (E1 and above) if it has next to no protection or deckable it is acceptable for mere mortals headpoint however I wanted to see what the climbing community thought of headpoint ethics.
46
In reply to dinodinosaur:
I generally headpoint any route which I don't fancy climbing ground up. That's about my only criteria really.
I generally headpoint any route which I don't fancy climbing ground up. That's about my only criteria really.
9
In reply to dinodinosaur:
Any route is acceptable but don't hog it if others want to do an onsight. Better still choose a route which needs restoring and report its new clean condition on UKC so others might like to have a go.
Any route is acceptable but don't hog it if others want to do an onsight. Better still choose a route which needs restoring and report its new clean condition on UKC so others might like to have a go.
20
In reply to dinodinosaur:
If you call it what it actually is, practice on a top rope, it doesn't sound nearly so intimidating nor impressive.
Al
If you call it what it actually is, practice on a top rope, it doesn't sound nearly so intimidating nor impressive.
Al
30
7
In reply to GridNorth:
Steady Al, you'll upset the younglings
> If you call it what it actually is, practice on a top rope, it doesn't sound nearly so intimidating nor impressive.
> Al
Steady Al, you'll upset the younglings
14
3
In reply to dinodinosaur:
It's only when you look closely at todays terminology, that you realise climbing has been taken over by management consultants.
It's only when you look closely at todays terminology, that you realise climbing has been taken over by management consultants.
25
11
In reply to Goucho:
Younglings? ... toprope pre-practice preceeds the oldest climbers still alive and there was never a time since when it didn't happen. There was a peak in popularity but that was decades back and most of those climbers are in their 50s now!?
Younglings? ... toprope pre-practice preceeds the oldest climbers still alive and there was never a time since when it didn't happen. There was a peak in popularity but that was decades back and most of those climbers are in their 50s now!?
Post edited at 09:28
19
1
In reply to Offwidth:
Absolutely. So why not call it that, instead of inventing a trendy new word for it, to try and make it out to be something different - as Al's post wittily pointed out.
> Younglings? ... toprope pre-practice preceeds the oldest climbers still alive and there was never a time since when it didn't happen. There was a peak in popularity but that was decades back and most of those climbers are in their 50s now!?
Absolutely. So why not call it that, instead of inventing a trendy new word for it, to try and make it out to be something different - as Al's post wittily pointed out.
10
5
In reply to Goucho:
Not sure about the phrase headpoint, but I know its closely related cousin, red point, was conceived in the 1970s. So not so much a trendy new word?
Not sure about the phrase headpoint, but I know its closely related cousin, red point, was conceived in the 1970s. So not so much a trendy new word?
Post edited at 09:45
6
In reply to Goucho:
You are rapidly becoming a parody of yourself, although I suspect that might be your desired affect. From my memory headpointing was coined in the "Hard Grit" era, so the best part of twenty years ago. So not really trendy or new.
You are rapidly becoming a parody of yourself, although I suspect that might be your desired affect. From my memory headpointing was coined in the "Hard Grit" era, so the best part of twenty years ago. So not really trendy or new.
18
1
In reply to chrismcd:
As I understand it, "headpoint" was established in British climbing terminology in the '90s, and this article by Adrian Berry says that Nick Dixon coined it in 1989:
http://kevinthaw.kahrlconsulting.com/Misc/Headpointing.htm
So yes, it seems a little late to complain about it as a "trendy new word" now.
As I understand it, "headpoint" was established in British climbing terminology in the '90s, and this article by Adrian Berry says that Nick Dixon coined it in 1989:
http://kevinthaw.kahrlconsulting.com/Misc/Headpointing.htm
So yes, it seems a little late to complain about it as a "trendy new word" now.
9
In reply to slab_happy:
Seems like my wind up failed
However, if you read the second half of the second paragraph of the second section in this article, it does lay out desired parameters which to my untrained eye, doesn't advocate 'headpointing' to become a universal approach to climbing?
> As I understand it, "headpoint" was established in British climbing terminology in the '90s, and this article by Adrian Berry says that Nick Dixon coined it in 1989:
> So yes, it seems a little late to complain about it as a "trendy new word" now.
Seems like my wind up failed
However, if you read the second half of the second paragraph of the second section in this article, it does lay out desired parameters which to my untrained eye, doesn't advocate 'headpointing' to become a universal approach to climbing?
2
5
In reply to TobyA:
I've been a contradictory parody of myself since puberty. And yes, recent comments have been slight wind-ups, but it's so easy to get someone to bite on here, it's a bit irresistible at times
> You are rapidly becoming a parody of yourself, although I suspect that might be your desired affect. From my memory headpointing was coined in the "Hard Grit" era, so the best part of twenty years ago. So not really trendy or new.
I've been a contradictory parody of myself since puberty. And yes, recent comments have been slight wind-ups, but it's so easy to get someone to bite on here, it's a bit irresistible at times
10
5
In reply to Goucho:
Or succeeded, depending on what you were aiming for ...
I haven't seen anyone in this thread advocating headpointing as a universal approach either. Even the OP was merely asking if it's ethically acceptable.
Which strikes me as a non-debate (unless someone's trying to headpoint stuff that's so far out of their league that they're causing damage to the rock, e.g. by wildly pedalling feet on a delicate slab).
You can obviously argue about whether it's a deeper experience and/or better for your development as a climber to try to improve your onsight grade rather than doing a lot of headpointing early on, but it's not an *ethical* debate.
> Seems like my wind up failed
Or succeeded, depending on what you were aiming for ...
> However, if you read the second half of the second paragraph of the second section in this article, it does lay out desired parameters which to my untrained eye, doesn't advocate 'headpointing' to become a universal approach to climbing?
I haven't seen anyone in this thread advocating headpointing as a universal approach either. Even the OP was merely asking if it's ethically acceptable.
Which strikes me as a non-debate (unless someone's trying to headpoint stuff that's so far out of their league that they're causing damage to the rock, e.g. by wildly pedalling feet on a delicate slab).
You can obviously argue about whether it's a deeper experience and/or better for your development as a climber to try to improve your onsight grade rather than doing a lot of headpointing early on, but it's not an *ethical* debate.
1
18
2
In reply to dinodinosaur:
The shadow side of headpoint ethics are old-fashioned - but well tried and tested - notions such as 'serving your apprenticeship' (Ken Wilson) and patience. Yes of course you can go out this afternoon and headpoint something. But what if you wait two years, work hard at your climbing, get better and onsight it? Won't you feel a million times better? Won't the accomplishment mean so much more to you?
OK, maybe you don't get better in two years, or four or six. Maybe life gets filled with responsibilities. Maybe you look at that lovely, unattainable (for you, as an onsight) arete for decades. Hey, what's the harm in that? Not everything has to be climbed. It's a thing of beauty. You can still appreciate it from afar.
Where a route has crucial pebbles though, I'd be infinitely careful. Pebbles have been there for millions of years. But when they're gone, they're gone. The route is altered forever.
We don't own the rock. It was there long before us and will be there long after us. But do we want to be the ones who trashed it for future generations? Do we want to be the ones who allowed the delicate 'ends versus means' ethos of British climbing over the last 130 years to be trashed by the murder - or sanitisation - of the impossible'? Will future generations thank us for trashing the rock and trashing standards of behaviour? I very much doubt it.
Mick
> ...headpoint ethics.
The shadow side of headpoint ethics are old-fashioned - but well tried and tested - notions such as 'serving your apprenticeship' (Ken Wilson) and patience. Yes of course you can go out this afternoon and headpoint something. But what if you wait two years, work hard at your climbing, get better and onsight it? Won't you feel a million times better? Won't the accomplishment mean so much more to you?
OK, maybe you don't get better in two years, or four or six. Maybe life gets filled with responsibilities. Maybe you look at that lovely, unattainable (for you, as an onsight) arete for decades. Hey, what's the harm in that? Not everything has to be climbed. It's a thing of beauty. You can still appreciate it from afar.
Where a route has crucial pebbles though, I'd be infinitely careful. Pebbles have been there for millions of years. But when they're gone, they're gone. The route is altered forever.
We don't own the rock. It was there long before us and will be there long after us. But do we want to be the ones who trashed it for future generations? Do we want to be the ones who allowed the delicate 'ends versus means' ethos of British climbing over the last 130 years to be trashed by the murder - or sanitisation - of the impossible'? Will future generations thank us for trashing the rock and trashing standards of behaviour? I very much doubt it.
Mick
14
7
In reply to Goucho:
Ah, all about the convenience and instant gratification ...
> it's so easy to get someone to bite on here, it's a bit irresistible at times
Ah, all about the convenience and instant gratification ...
10
In reply to slab_happy:
Yes, there are times when UKC can bring out the fast food junkie in all of us
> Ah, all about the convenience and instant gratification ...
Yes, there are times when UKC can bring out the fast food junkie in all of us
1
In reply to dinodinosaur:
I think it's as simple as this: You can say 'I practiced it on top rope and then lead it clean' or you can say 'I headpointed it.'
Less faff, more climbing. Sounds good, right?
I think it's as simple as this: You can say 'I practiced it on top rope and then lead it clean' or you can say 'I headpointed it.'
Less faff, more climbing. Sounds good, right?
11
In reply to Offwidth:
But the point made that they called it "toprope pre-practice" not Head Pointing.
> Younglings? ... toprope pre-practice preceeds the oldest climbers still alive and there was never a time since when it didn't happen. There was a peak in popularity but that was decades back and most of those climbers are in their 50s now!?
But the point made that they called it "toprope pre-practice" not Head Pointing.
1
In reply to slab_happy:
Headpointing or dogging or whatever, it is becoming an increasingly common part of mainstream trad culture across all grades and abilities, undoubtedly influenced by the indoor wall, bouldering and sport climbing culture via which most people seem to enter the sport nowadays.
Take a look at the difference between a lot of people's onsight v worked grades, and it's obvious that this is happening a lot.
It is when this kind of approach increases route damage.
> Or succeeded, depending on what you were aiming for ...
> I haven't seen anyone in this thread advocating headpointing as a universal approach either. Even the OP was merely asking if it's ethically acceptable.
Headpointing or dogging or whatever, it is becoming an increasingly common part of mainstream trad culture across all grades and abilities, undoubtedly influenced by the indoor wall, bouldering and sport climbing culture via which most people seem to enter the sport nowadays.
> Which strikes me as a non-debate (unless someone's trying to headpoint stuff that's so far out of their league that they're causing damage to the rock, e.g. by wildly pedalling feet on a delicate slab).
Take a look at the difference between a lot of people's onsight v worked grades, and it's obvious that this is happening a lot.
> You can obviously argue about whether it's a deeper experience and/or better for your development as a climber to try to improve your onsight grade rather than doing a lot of headpointing early on, but it's not an *ethical* debate.
It is when this kind of approach increases route damage.
1
5
In reply to dinodinosaur:
I think a sensible time to start headpointing stuff is when you look through the local guidebook and everything is either ticked, too easy, too wet/dirty, too rubbish or too hard. Some will no doubt argue that this never happens (but they're the people that think Wyming Brook is worth a visit). Then you've pretty much run out of stuff to enjoy doing onsight and so you need to open up more appealing routes and want to push further up the grades without taking big risks. Others will prefer to just do crap routes at the same grade instead, and they will be rewarded by a feeling of smug ethical superiority, which is their prerogative.
This seems to me to be a good time to get the top-rope out, otherwise the feeling of being stuck in a rut will eventually hit, and you'll have to spend loads of money on a new mountain bike (which will ultimately result in a broken collar bone, and/or broken wrists).
I think a sensible time to start headpointing stuff is when you look through the local guidebook and everything is either ticked, too easy, too wet/dirty, too rubbish or too hard. Some will no doubt argue that this never happens (but they're the people that think Wyming Brook is worth a visit). Then you've pretty much run out of stuff to enjoy doing onsight and so you need to open up more appealing routes and want to push further up the grades without taking big risks. Others will prefer to just do crap routes at the same grade instead, and they will be rewarded by a feeling of smug ethical superiority, which is their prerogative.
This seems to me to be a good time to get the top-rope out, otherwise the feeling of being stuck in a rut will eventually hit, and you'll have to spend loads of money on a new mountain bike (which will ultimately result in a broken collar bone, and/or broken wrists).
28
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Or you could try something harder onsight? I'm hardly what could be classed as a talented rock athlete, but over a long a varied climbing life, I've managed to get from Diff to E6 without resorting to having to get the top rope out everytime I moved up a grade?
I have slung a top rope down the odd harder than I climb chop route, out of curiosity, but it's never been a strategy. If I wanted to climb routes too hard for me, I'd second someone good on them - headpointed, worked, dogged or seconded, you've still blown the onsight
> I think a sensible time to start headpointing stuff is when you look through the local guidebook and everything is either ticked, too easy, too wet/dirty, too rubbish or too hard. Some will no doubt argue that this never happens (but they're the people that think Wyming Brook is worth a visit). Then you've pretty much run out of stuff to enjoy doing onsight and so you need to open up more appealing routes and want to push further up the grades without taking big risks. Others will prefer to just do crap routes at the same grade instead, and they will be rewarded by a feeling of smug ethical superiority, which is their prerogative.
> This seems to me to be a good time to get the top-rope out, otherwise the feeling of being stuck in a rut will eventually hit, and you'll have to spend loads of money on a new mountain bike (which will ultimately result in a broken collar bone, and/or broken wrists).
Or you could try something harder onsight? I'm hardly what could be classed as a talented rock athlete, but over a long a varied climbing life, I've managed to get from Diff to E6 without resorting to having to get the top rope out everytime I moved up a grade?
I have slung a top rope down the odd harder than I climb chop route, out of curiosity, but it's never been a strategy. If I wanted to climb routes too hard for me, I'd second someone good on them - headpointed, worked, dogged or seconded, you've still blown the onsight
3
9
In reply to Goucho:
If you honestly think that seconding someone up a route is somehow ethically better than putting a toprope on it, you're completely f*cking delusional. They're the exact same experience, albeit you're removing your mate's gear on the former (and thus getting more beta on the gear, I guess), and with the latter you're at least being entirely honest in your approach. What's more, from the bollocky perspective of limiting wear, one person trying the moves on toprope then leading it is far, far better than two people leading it in terms of potential damage to gear placements.
> If I wanted to climb routes too hard for me, I'd second someone good on them - headpointed, worked, dogged or seconded, you've still blown the onsight
If you honestly think that seconding someone up a route is somehow ethically better than putting a toprope on it, you're completely f*cking delusional. They're the exact same experience, albeit you're removing your mate's gear on the former (and thus getting more beta on the gear, I guess), and with the latter you're at least being entirely honest in your approach. What's more, from the bollocky perspective of limiting wear, one person trying the moves on toprope then leading it is far, far better than two people leading it in terms of potential damage to gear placements.
23
7
In reply to Goucho:
In that case, you wouldn't be looking at the book and classifying those routes as "too hard". It's to do with confidence really: with a lot of self-belief and tenacity you can do as you suggest and just try well chosen routes onsight, safe in the belief that you'll not cock it up and end up breaking your legs. You have to be prepared to fall, and often come close to the ground or a ledge.
You're not factoring in that that's very unusual - not very many people get to E6, and even fewer without fairly extensive use of a toprope. You might like to think that back in the day, everyone was climbing E6 without any of this management consultant 'headpoint' speak, but it isn't actually true. As for always having someone who climbs a grade or so harder whose routes you want to second (i.e. you're not saving them for onsight) isn't very likely either. And you don't need to do it every time you move up a grade - it's when your rate of progress dips below the number of available (local) routes that this becomes relevant.
> Or you could try something harder onsight?
In that case, you wouldn't be looking at the book and classifying those routes as "too hard". It's to do with confidence really: with a lot of self-belief and tenacity you can do as you suggest and just try well chosen routes onsight, safe in the belief that you'll not cock it up and end up breaking your legs. You have to be prepared to fall, and often come close to the ground or a ledge.
> I've managed to get from Diff to E6 without resorting to having to get the top rope out everytime I moved up a grade?
You're not factoring in that that's very unusual - not very many people get to E6, and even fewer without fairly extensive use of a toprope. You might like to think that back in the day, everyone was climbing E6 without any of this management consultant 'headpoint' speak, but it isn't actually true. As for always having someone who climbs a grade or so harder whose routes you want to second (i.e. you're not saving them for onsight) isn't very likely either. And you don't need to do it every time you move up a grade - it's when your rate of progress dips below the number of available (local) routes that this becomes relevant.
9
In reply to Valkyrie1968:
I'd really love to watch you top rope Skinhead Moonstomp or Conan the Librarian - or are you limiting your climbing to single pitch only?
I wasn't claiming any moral high ground over seconding and top roping, but now you mention it, people do tend to spend more time practising a route on a top rope, than they do seconding.
> If you honestly think that seconding someone up a route is somehow ethically better than putting a toprope on it, you're completely f*cking delusional. They're the exact same experience, albeit you're removing your mate's gear on the former (and thus getting more beta on the gear, I guess), and with the latter you're at least being entirely honest in your approach. What's more, from the bollocky perspective of limiting wear, one person trying the moves on toprope then leading it is far, far better than two people leading it in terms of potential damage to gear placements.
I'd really love to watch you top rope Skinhead Moonstomp or Conan the Librarian - or are you limiting your climbing to single pitch only?
I wasn't claiming any moral high ground over seconding and top roping, but now you mention it, people do tend to spend more time practising a route on a top rope, than they do seconding.
1
4
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Agreed but, possibly because it was called top roping and slightly frowned upon, it wasn't as readily admitted. Calling it "Headpointing" makes it sexy, fashionable and therefore more acceptable and as a consequence more prevalent. Or perhaps it's just with modern communication (UKC) we hear more about it.
Al
> You might like to think that back in the day, everyone was climbing E6 without any of this management consultant 'headpoint' speak, but it isn't actually true.
Agreed but, possibly because it was called top roping and slightly frowned upon, it wasn't as readily admitted. Calling it "Headpointing" makes it sexy, fashionable and therefore more acceptable and as a consequence more prevalent. Or perhaps it's just with modern communication (UKC) we hear more about it.
Al
4
4
In reply to Valkyrie1968:
I can think of lots of examples where they very definitely aren't the same experience at all. Seconding a steep and fingery pitch while taking out fiddly gear is far easier than just sprinting up on a toprope.
Then there are traverses...
Arguing that placing gear damages a route more than toproping might be true if the number of ascents were the same, but that isn't how toproping works. And all those grooves cut into the top of the Roaches Lower Tier didn't get there by people seconding, did they?
> If you honestly think that seconding someone up a route is somehow ethically better than putting a toprope on it, you're completely f*cking delusional. They're the exact same experience, albeit you're removing your mate's gear on the former
I can think of lots of examples where they very definitely aren't the same experience at all. Seconding a steep and fingery pitch while taking out fiddly gear is far easier than just sprinting up on a toprope.
Then there are traverses...
Arguing that placing gear damages a route more than toproping might be true if the number of ascents were the same, but that isn't how toproping works. And all those grooves cut into the top of the Roaches Lower Tier didn't get there by people seconding, did they?
Post edited at 12:23
1
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Here's a novel approach to increasing your grades.
Climb lots of different routes of varying styles on different rock in different areas (don't give me the 'its difficult to get to different crags' argument, today most people have cars or access to one, and we managed it potless and hitching everywhere) at a given grade. Not just a handful that play to your strengths, but lots of varied types.
Then, when you're really solid on anything at that grade, move onto the next grade.
Step and repeat until you either reach the limits of your potential or inclination, or get bored, get married and take up golf.
Yes, the downside is it might take a little longer, but the upside is you'll get to do loads of fabulous routes which the short cut approach of headpointing to improve misses out.
Of course use of an indoor wall, training, sport climbing and bouldering will all contribute further to your climbing prowess.
> In that case, you wouldn't be looking at the book and classifying those routes as "too hard". It's to do with confidence really: with a lot of self-belief and tenacity you can do as you suggest and just try well chosen routes onsight, safe in the belief that you'll not cock it up and end up breaking your legs. You have to be prepared to fall, and often come close to the ground or a ledge.
> You're not factoring in that that's very unusual - not very many people get to E6, and even fewer without fairly extensive use of a toprope. You might like to think that back in the day, everyone was climbing E6 without any of this management consultant 'headpoint' speak, but it isn't actually true. As for always having someone who climbs a grade or so harder whose routes you want to second (i.e. you're not saving them for onsight) isn't very likely either. And you don't need to do it every time you move up a grade - it's when your rate of progress dips below the number of available (local) routes that this becomes relevant.
Here's a novel approach to increasing your grades.
Climb lots of different routes of varying styles on different rock in different areas (don't give me the 'its difficult to get to different crags' argument, today most people have cars or access to one, and we managed it potless and hitching everywhere) at a given grade. Not just a handful that play to your strengths, but lots of varied types.
Then, when you're really solid on anything at that grade, move onto the next grade.
Step and repeat until you either reach the limits of your potential or inclination, or get bored, get married and take up golf.
Yes, the downside is it might take a little longer, but the upside is you'll get to do loads of fabulous routes which the short cut approach of headpointing to improve misses out.
Of course use of an indoor wall, training, sport climbing and bouldering will all contribute further to your climbing prowess.
Post edited at 12:32
4
5
In reply to Goucho:
I think that with the advent of climbing walls the need to top rope should be less as the wall can be used to improve. Personally I don't get nearly as much satisfaction at getting up a route if I have not led it, on sight, in good style. Again this is personal but a little bit of me still thinks of top roping as cheating. And yes I have been known to cheat. My problem is that it doesn't always produce a positive benefit. I climbed Last Slip in Avon many years ago and, if I do say so myself, cruised it. Shortly after this I top roped it, several times, because I had an hour to spare and no partner and found it desperate on every occasion. I was left wondering how I had ever led it. So you could say that in this case it had a negative affect because for me climbing is not just a physical exercise.
Al
I think that with the advent of climbing walls the need to top rope should be less as the wall can be used to improve. Personally I don't get nearly as much satisfaction at getting up a route if I have not led it, on sight, in good style. Again this is personal but a little bit of me still thinks of top roping as cheating. And yes I have been known to cheat. My problem is that it doesn't always produce a positive benefit. I climbed Last Slip in Avon many years ago and, if I do say so myself, cruised it. Shortly after this I top roped it, several times, because I had an hour to spare and no partner and found it desperate on every occasion. I was left wondering how I had ever led it. So you could say that in this case it had a negative affect because for me climbing is not just a physical exercise.
Al
Post edited at 12:44
2
In reply to Goucho:
(in reply to Jon Stewart)
Jon Stewart
Age
37
Been Climbing For
11 to 20 years
Best Onsights
Trad - E4
Bouldering - V6
Worked Grades
Bouldering - V7
I Climb...
Several times a week
In the UK
Favourite Climbs
Archangel
Astral Stroll
Voyage of Faith
Mastodon
Fiesta de los Biceps
Voie Madier/Visite Obligatoire
Assassin
Star Wars
The Painted Wall
Vim
Sula
Geriatrics
Hoofer's Route
Saxon
The Strait Gate
Elegy
The Moon
Central Pillar
The Black Streak
Samba Pa Ti
Astra
Swordfish
Hargreave's Original Route
The Cube
The Irrepressible Urge
Arcturus/Golden Slipper
Diabaig Pillar
Sinecure
Fastburn
Desolation Row
KitKat
Central Buttress (Scafell)
Fay
Cream Egg Eliminate
Be Clever
Twisted Smile
Jack The Ripper
Bloodhound
Dry Wit In A Wet Country
Keelhaul
Absent Friends
GTX
Gravy Train
Centrefold
given the tone and recurring themes in your posts, Goucho, are you sure you wouldn't be better posting on here...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/columnist-1002343/Daily-Mail-Comment.html
;-P
gregor
(in reply to Jon Stewart)
> Here's a novel approach to increasing your grades, etc etc.
Jon Stewart
Age
37
Been Climbing For
11 to 20 years
Best Onsights
Trad - E4
Bouldering - V6
Worked Grades
Bouldering - V7
I Climb...
Several times a week
In the UK
Favourite Climbs
Archangel
Astral Stroll
Voyage of Faith
Mastodon
Fiesta de los Biceps
Voie Madier/Visite Obligatoire
Assassin
Star Wars
The Painted Wall
Vim
Sula
Geriatrics
Hoofer's Route
Saxon
The Strait Gate
Elegy
The Moon
Central Pillar
The Black Streak
Samba Pa Ti
Astra
Swordfish
Hargreave's Original Route
The Cube
The Irrepressible Urge
Arcturus/Golden Slipper
Diabaig Pillar
Sinecure
Fastburn
Desolation Row
KitKat
Central Buttress (Scafell)
Fay
Cream Egg Eliminate
Be Clever
Twisted Smile
Jack The Ripper
Bloodhound
Dry Wit In A Wet Country
Keelhaul
Absent Friends
GTX
Gravy Train
Centrefold
given the tone and recurring themes in your posts, Goucho, are you sure you wouldn't be better posting on here...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/columnist-1002343/Daily-Mail-Comment.html
;-P
gregor
8
1
In reply to GridNorth:
I complete agree - I wonder whether this is a generational/era thing?
Personally, I actually climb better leading than either seconding or top roping, and tend to do my best work on what could be described as bolder routes, which seem to focus my brain much more, and produce another gear - this might well be a positive reaction to increased levels of anxiety. As you say, the physical and technical aspect is just one part of trad climbing, and the 'head' and 'emotional' aspect often play a far more crucial role.
I think what drives you is important too. For me it's always the routes, the line, the movement, the situation, the overall experience that were and still are the most important.
> I think that with the advent of climbing walls the need to top rope should be less as the wall can be used to improve. Personally I don't get nearly as much satisfaction at getting up a route if I have not led it, on sight, in good style. Again this is personal but a little bit of me still thinks of top roping as cheating. And yes I have been known to cheat. My problem is that it doesn't always produce a positive benefit. I climbed Last Slip in Avon many years ago and, if I do say so myself, cruised it. Shortly after this I top roped it, several times, because I had an hour to spare and no partner and found it desperate on every occasion. I was left wondering how I had ever led it. So you could say that in this case it had a negative affect because for me climbing is not just a physical exercise.
> Al
I complete agree - I wonder whether this is a generational/era thing?
Personally, I actually climb better leading than either seconding or top roping, and tend to do my best work on what could be described as bolder routes, which seem to focus my brain much more, and produce another gear - this might well be a positive reaction to increased levels of anxiety. As you say, the physical and technical aspect is just one part of trad climbing, and the 'head' and 'emotional' aspect often play a far more crucial role.
I think what drives you is important too. For me it's always the routes, the line, the movement, the situation, the overall experience that were and still are the most important.
1
2
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
Oh god you could be right, which is rather embarrassing
> (in reply to Jon Stewart)
> given the tone and recurring themes in your posts, Goucho, are you sure you wouldn't be better posting on here...
> ;-P
> gregor
Oh god you could be right, which is rather embarrassing
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Hi Jon
Just wanted to point out that when I replied to your post and posted 'here's a novel way to improve your grades', I wasn't meaning you personally, and should in fact have put 'here's a novel way for 'people' to improve 'their' grades'
No sarcasm was intended in your direction
Hi Jon
Just wanted to point out that when I replied to your post and posted 'here's a novel way to improve your grades', I wasn't meaning you personally, and should in fact have put 'here's a novel way for 'people' to improve 'their' grades'
No sarcasm was intended in your direction
In reply to Goucho:
tbh i mostly agree with you- i very, very rarely tope rope routes (and have never considered that i was 'headpointing them'). But i got married long before i reached the limits of my potential (i hope!), so have limited time, and no partners climbing a couple of grades harder than me.... as a result, i've certainly not reached the Jon Stewart threshold for triggering headpointing, ie there are still absolutely loads of good routes that i should be able to lead onsight, if i ever get out often enough get the mileage in to progress to them...!
and that's why i'm still stuck at having epics on descent routes, lol...
tbh i mostly agree with you- i very, very rarely tope rope routes (and have never considered that i was 'headpointing them'). But i got married long before i reached the limits of my potential (i hope!), so have limited time, and no partners climbing a couple of grades harder than me.... as a result, i've certainly not reached the Jon Stewart threshold for triggering headpointing, ie there are still absolutely loads of good routes that i should be able to lead onsight, if i ever get out often enough get the mileage in to progress to them...!
and that's why i'm still stuck at having epics on descent routes, lol...
In reply to Goucho:
Am I the only one who's not really bothered about getting the on-sight on a route?
Mean, yes if I set off leading a route I'll do so fully expecting to do it cleanly and would be disappointed if I failed. But for me, and I understand this is maybe an unusual view on things, even with routes within my potential on-sighting range I'd rather practice it beforehand (headpoint / top rope not fussed what you call it) so I've got the sequence sussed then lead it smoothly and in control than just jump on and make a right hash of it, even though I may still succeed? In fact on occasion I've actually on-sighted routes, then re-climbed them on top rope so I can do them smoothly if I felt I didn't climb it well on lead.
Maybe strange to some (a lot of) people but for me the whole battling against the unknown, adventuring thing doesn't really do it for me on routes, I like to find the optimum solution to the problem and flow up it.
Then again, these days I spend most of my time bouldering.
Am I the only one who's not really bothered about getting the on-sight on a route?
Mean, yes if I set off leading a route I'll do so fully expecting to do it cleanly and would be disappointed if I failed. But for me, and I understand this is maybe an unusual view on things, even with routes within my potential on-sighting range I'd rather practice it beforehand (headpoint / top rope not fussed what you call it) so I've got the sequence sussed then lead it smoothly and in control than just jump on and make a right hash of it, even though I may still succeed? In fact on occasion I've actually on-sighted routes, then re-climbed them on top rope so I can do them smoothly if I felt I didn't climb it well on lead.
Maybe strange to some (a lot of) people but for me the whole battling against the unknown, adventuring thing doesn't really do it for me on routes, I like to find the optimum solution to the problem and flow up it.
Then again, these days I spend most of my time bouldering.
10
1
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
Throughout this thread there has been an assumption that top roping and headpointing are synonymous. Surely there is a minor but useful distinction. Headpointing is top roping with the eventual aim (and reasonable chance?) of a lead or solo. Top roping in general need have no such intent.
> i very, very rarely tope rope routes (and have never considered that i was 'headpointing them').
Throughout this thread there has been an assumption that top roping and headpointing are synonymous. Surely there is a minor but useful distinction. Headpointing is top roping with the eventual aim (and reasonable chance?) of a lead or solo. Top roping in general need have no such intent.
7
In reply to Dave Garnett:
Arguably that would be better in terms of 'practicing' the route then, surely, in that one's experience would more closely mirror the act of leading (having to figure out how to hang on to get the gear out, etc.), and thus be even more deplorable in the eyes of those denigrating headpointing?
Logistically tricky, of course, as are Goucho's examples, which form a wonderful straw-man argument - if they're not possible to toprope they're not possible to headpoint (although they could of course be inspected on abseil, which has always been a common practice), and thus not applicable to this discussion.
Seeing as the vast majority of the damage done to the tops of routes at the Roaches Lower Tier has been done by toproping groups who have no intention of headpointing, rather than headpointers themselves, I'd say that that's again of little relevance here.
I was actually rather looking forward to an interesting discussion on this subject, as I think it's interesting how people's opinions vary; mine have developed as my climbing has, and what I once would have considered an 'acceptable' grade for headpointing is now well within my onsight limit, and so my own standards have shifted - a fact that means that, while I have considered chucking a toprope on the odd hard route, and have actually done so on a couple of occasions, the real classics will always be out of bounds. Alas, this thread has, as always, become a circle jerk for the oldies of this site, an echo chamber in which past glories are spunked all over and the younger generation of climbers are denounced for doing precisely what climbing is all about - exactly what the f*ck they want.
> I can think of lots of examples where they very definitely aren't the same experience at all. Seconding a steep and fingery pitch while taking out fiddly gear is far easier than just sprinting up on a toprope.
Arguably that would be better in terms of 'practicing' the route then, surely, in that one's experience would more closely mirror the act of leading (having to figure out how to hang on to get the gear out, etc.), and thus be even more deplorable in the eyes of those denigrating headpointing?
> Then there are traverses...
Logistically tricky, of course, as are Goucho's examples, which form a wonderful straw-man argument - if they're not possible to toprope they're not possible to headpoint (although they could of course be inspected on abseil, which has always been a common practice), and thus not applicable to this discussion.
> Arguing that placing gear damages a route more than toproping might be true if the number of ascents were the same, but that isn't how toproping works. And all those grooves cut into the top of the Roaches Lower Tier didn't get there by people seconding, did they?
Seeing as the vast majority of the damage done to the tops of routes at the Roaches Lower Tier has been done by toproping groups who have no intention of headpointing, rather than headpointers themselves, I'd say that that's again of little relevance here.
I was actually rather looking forward to an interesting discussion on this subject, as I think it's interesting how people's opinions vary; mine have developed as my climbing has, and what I once would have considered an 'acceptable' grade for headpointing is now well within my onsight limit, and so my own standards have shifted - a fact that means that, while I have considered chucking a toprope on the odd hard route, and have actually done so on a couple of occasions, the real classics will always be out of bounds. Alas, this thread has, as always, become a circle jerk for the oldies of this site, an echo chamber in which past glories are spunked all over and the younger generation of climbers are denounced for doing precisely what climbing is all about - exactly what the f*ck they want.
7
In reply to Valkyrie1968:
Go on, give us a clue who you're trying to be today? Is it Elmore Leonard, Charles Bukowski or Hunter S Thompson?
> Arguably that would be better in terms of 'practicing' the route then, surely, in that one's experience would more closely mirror the act of leading (having to figure out how to hang on to get the gear out, etc.), and thus be even more deplorable in the eyes of those denigrating headpointing?
> Logistically tricky, of course, as are Goucho's examples, which form a wonderful straw-man argument - if they're not possible to toprope they're not possible to headpoint (although they could of course be inspected on abseil, which has always been a common practice), and thus not applicable to this discussion.
> Seeing as the vast majority of the damage done to the tops of routes at the Roaches Lower Tier has been done by toproping groups who have no intention of headpointing, rather than headpointers themselves, I'd say that that's again of little relevance here.
> I was actually rather looking forward to an interesting discussion on this subject, as I think it's interesting how people's opinions vary; mine have developed as my climbing has, and what I once would have considered an 'acceptable' grade for headpointing is now well within my onsight limit, and so my own standards have shifted - a fact that means that, while I have considered chucking a toprope on the odd hard route, and have actually done so on a couple of occasions, the real classics will always be out of bounds. Alas, this thread has, as always, become a circle jerk for the oldies of this site, an echo chamber in which past glories are spunked all over and the younger generation of climbers are denounced for doing precisely what climbing is all about - exactly what the f*ck they want.
Go on, give us a clue who you're trying to be today? Is it Elmore Leonard, Charles Bukowski or Hunter S Thompson?
1
2
In reply to Goucho:
The comparisons are very sweet of you, but I was actually going for the comparatively banal 'person who doesn't shit on other people's approaches to climbing purely because they're at odds with mine'.
The comparisons are very sweet of you, but I was actually going for the comparatively banal 'person who doesn't shit on other people's approaches to climbing purely because they're at odds with mine'.
16
In reply to Valkyrie1968:
I suspect we don't really disagree about much, I was just pointing out that seconding can be a very different experience to toproping.
We need to separate two issues. One is the ethical thing about whether you go to hell for toproping, even if you lead it afterwards - in my view you don't as long as you are honest about it. You're right, you can climb how you like, and I've done my share of chucking a rope down something hard to see if I can technically do it (I have never, however, spent all day trying something too hard for me).
The other is what you might call the ecological objection that toproping leads to increased wear and loss of marginal holds. Clearly it sometimes does. When fewer people climbed perhaps this mattered less, but for classic hard routes on popular crags, now it does.
I guess you can't escape the secondary 'moral' issue about whether, if you accept we may need to 'ration' usage, a lead ascent is in some way morally superior and a more worthy consumption of a limited resource. I'm keeping out of that one.
Edit: No, let's be honest, in these hypothetical circumstances leading should have priority but in practice it's a false dichotomy.
I suspect we don't really disagree about much, I was just pointing out that seconding can be a very different experience to toproping.
We need to separate two issues. One is the ethical thing about whether you go to hell for toproping, even if you lead it afterwards - in my view you don't as long as you are honest about it. You're right, you can climb how you like, and I've done my share of chucking a rope down something hard to see if I can technically do it (I have never, however, spent all day trying something too hard for me).
The other is what you might call the ecological objection that toproping leads to increased wear and loss of marginal holds. Clearly it sometimes does. When fewer people climbed perhaps this mattered less, but for classic hard routes on popular crags, now it does.
I guess you can't escape the secondary 'moral' issue about whether, if you accept we may need to 'ration' usage, a lead ascent is in some way morally superior and a more worthy consumption of a limited resource. I'm keeping out of that one.
Edit: No, let's be honest, in these hypothetical circumstances leading should have priority but in practice it's a false dichotomy.
Post edited at 14:42
In reply to Valkyrie1968:
If you remove the act of shiting on other people's approach to climbing, you'll be removing well over 50% of the threads on here.
Old farts berating the younger generation, and the younger generation taking the piss out of old has beens is the meat and veg of UKC discusions.
And as far as I can see, the younger generation are more than capable of looking after themselves and administering metaphorical blows to our old shrivelled dangly bits.
Now let's get back to some Fear and Loathing of Headpointing
> The comparisons are very sweet of you, but I was actually going for the comparatively banal 'person who doesn't shit on other people's approaches to climbing purely because they're at odds with mine'.
If you remove the act of shiting on other people's approach to climbing, you'll be removing well over 50% of the threads on here.
Old farts berating the younger generation, and the younger generation taking the piss out of old has beens is the meat and veg of UKC discusions.
And as far as I can see, the younger generation are more than capable of looking after themselves and administering metaphorical blows to our old shrivelled dangly bits.
Now let's get back to some Fear and Loathing of Headpointing
5
In reply to dinodinosaur:
I think routes should only be head-pointed if they haven't already been climbed in a better style, so that leaves first ascents and routes that have only been head-pointed.
I never top rope routes, I can only climb E2 but I never run out of routes to try, you can always repeat routes.
If your not good enough for the challenge of a particular route then either get stronger, or braver, or find an easier route, or if its lack of protection that worries you then find someone who can do the route and second them on it. There are plenty of walls or sport routes about to push yourself on.
If you have concerns about the condition of a route or in-situ gear, there is always abseil inspection.
I think routes should only be head-pointed if they haven't already been climbed in a better style, so that leaves first ascents and routes that have only been head-pointed.
I never top rope routes, I can only climb E2 but I never run out of routes to try, you can always repeat routes.
If your not good enough for the challenge of a particular route then either get stronger, or braver, or find an easier route, or if its lack of protection that worries you then find someone who can do the route and second them on it. There are plenty of walls or sport routes about to push yourself on.
If you have concerns about the condition of a route or in-situ gear, there is always abseil inspection.
9
In reply to dinodinosaur:
In an attempt to answer your original question;
The beauty of climbing is that it is completely up to you when you resort to headpointing/top-rope practice.
If there is a route you have a strong desire to lead and yet do not feel that it is within your capabilities to onsight/ground-up or the risk is too high then by all means, drop a rope down it, get the moves and gear sorted and lead it. I imagine it will be a very satisfactory experience for you.
However, it is worth considering future aspirations at the same time, could you conceive of climbing this onsight or ground-up in the future? You *may* regret headpointing a classic route in a few years time that would have given you a great experience going for the onsight on.
My personal view on headpointing at the minute is that it doesn't fit in with the ethos of trad-climbing for me. I see trad climbing as using your skills to allow you to ascend a given piece of rock as safely as possible with only information that can be gleaned from the ground (or your mates!).
There are routes I'd love to climb that I am not good enough/bold enough to do onsight, but that for me is the beauty of trad climbing; you have to be good enough to climb that piece of rock, or you have to risk hurting yourself to climb it!
Maybe one day I will end up headpointing some routes. Bloodrush at Shining Clough is one of the few routes that tempts me into it...
As long as you are honest and don't damage the rock you are free to climb in whatever style you like - the beauty of climbing! Don't be afraid to be ambitious though - who knows what you will do in the future!
Whatever you decide enjoy it!
In an attempt to answer your original question;
The beauty of climbing is that it is completely up to you when you resort to headpointing/top-rope practice.
If there is a route you have a strong desire to lead and yet do not feel that it is within your capabilities to onsight/ground-up or the risk is too high then by all means, drop a rope down it, get the moves and gear sorted and lead it. I imagine it will be a very satisfactory experience for you.
However, it is worth considering future aspirations at the same time, could you conceive of climbing this onsight or ground-up in the future? You *may* regret headpointing a classic route in a few years time that would have given you a great experience going for the onsight on.
My personal view on headpointing at the minute is that it doesn't fit in with the ethos of trad-climbing for me. I see trad climbing as using your skills to allow you to ascend a given piece of rock as safely as possible with only information that can be gleaned from the ground (or your mates!).
There are routes I'd love to climb that I am not good enough/bold enough to do onsight, but that for me is the beauty of trad climbing; you have to be good enough to climb that piece of rock, or you have to risk hurting yourself to climb it!
Maybe one day I will end up headpointing some routes. Bloodrush at Shining Clough is one of the few routes that tempts me into it...
As long as you are honest and don't damage the rock you are free to climb in whatever style you like - the beauty of climbing! Don't be afraid to be ambitious though - who knows what you will do in the future!
Whatever you decide enjoy it!
2
In reply to Martin Haworth:
By that logic should we only lead routes that haven't been soloed Martin?
By that logic should we only lead routes that haven't been soloed Martin?
9
In reply to dinodinosaur:
I'd say very few people operating around E1 have a genuine interest or the patience to redpoint - the number of genuine redpoints of these sorts of grades must be tiy so its ot really a worry from the ethical standpoint of limiting damage. From a style point of view thats down to what the climber can live with. Redpointing an E1 comes somewhere mid scale between a top rope (arguably non ascent) and a clean onsight or solo IMO
I'd say very few people operating around E1 have a genuine interest or the patience to redpoint - the number of genuine redpoints of these sorts of grades must be tiy so its ot really a worry from the ethical standpoint of limiting damage. From a style point of view thats down to what the climber can live with. Redpointing an E1 comes somewhere mid scale between a top rope (arguably non ascent) and a clean onsight or solo IMO
In reply to Duncan Campbell:
No, you are assuming soloing is a better style than leading, in my book they are both just free ascents.
No, you are assuming soloing is a better style than leading, in my book they are both just free ascents.
In reply to Martin Haworth:
Out of interest, did you derive this principle using first-order logic starting from "I think therefore I am"? Or did you just accept it without justification because it sounds snappy and suits the fact that you aren't interested in headpointing?
Or, to put it another way, why should they? I mean, I'm not bothered about headpointing either, but if I was then I'd be doing it - like any other climbing - basically for my own satisfaction, so unless I'm hogging a route or damaging it, I don't really see why I'd care what style it's been done in in the past.
> I think routes should only be head-pointed if they haven't already been climbed in a better style,
Out of interest, did you derive this principle using first-order logic starting from "I think therefore I am"? Or did you just accept it without justification because it sounds snappy and suits the fact that you aren't interested in headpointing?
Or, to put it another way, why should they? I mean, I'm not bothered about headpointing either, but if I was then I'd be doing it - like any other climbing - basically for my own satisfaction, so unless I'm hogging a route or damaging it, I don't really see why I'd care what style it's been done in in the past.
Post edited at 15:45
7
In reply to Ramblin dave:
Dave
I thought your user name was something to do with walking but I can see its more about your conversation style!
Only joking, to be honest my statement:
"I think routes should only be head-pointed if they haven't already been climbed in a better style" was intended to be provocative. I'm happy for people to climb what and how they like with the caviats you have made. Personally I don't head point as I prefer to on-sight stuff, maybe that's the reason I can only climb E2.
Dave
I thought your user name was something to do with walking but I can see its more about your conversation style!
Only joking, to be honest my statement:
"I think routes should only be head-pointed if they haven't already been climbed in a better style" was intended to be provocative. I'm happy for people to climb what and how they like with the caviats you have made. Personally I don't head point as I prefer to on-sight stuff, maybe that's the reason I can only climb E2.
In reply to Lord_ash2000:
I think you've got everyone who's more into sport or bouldering on your side. But it's a weird approach to trad, and puts anything that's not just a single-pitch outcrop pretty much out of bounds, which sounds very dull to me.
> Am I the only one who's not really bothered about getting the on-sight on a route?
I think you've got everyone who's more into sport or bouldering on your side. But it's a weird approach to trad, and puts anything that's not just a single-pitch outcrop pretty much out of bounds, which sounds very dull to me.
2
3
In reply to Martin Haworth:
Martin, I largely agree with you, but what if you want to climb harder? My lead grade has consistently also been E2/E3 for years, and in that time I've only seconded 1 E4 because I just haven't met that many climbers operating at that level.
I'm keenly aware that the easiest way (for me) to get experience of E4 is to headpoint a few. I'm yet to give in to that temptation, but I know what's holding me back....
> I never top rope routes, I can only climb E2 but I never run out of routes to try, you can always repeat routes.
Martin, I largely agree with you, but what if you want to climb harder? My lead grade has consistently also been E2/E3 for years, and in that time I've only seconded 1 E4 because I just haven't met that many climbers operating at that level.
I'm keenly aware that the easiest way (for me) to get experience of E4 is to headpoint a few. I'm yet to give in to that temptation, but I know what's holding me back....
4
In reply to Goucho:
None taken - I've never headpointed anything. But it would be a good way to get more out of my local crags, if I was interested/could be arsed.
> No sarcasm was intended in your direction
None taken - I've never headpointed anything. But it would be a good way to get more out of my local crags, if I was interested/could be arsed.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
You might be right, as I said I mainly just boulder these days but do have a soft spot for sport climbing too. Unfortunately due to living in the Lake District if I want to do routes, then most of what I have available is trad.
I think it's probably because I'd approach a harder trad route like I might a sport climb, just with crapper gear to contend with. And yes, I've never tried doing anything hard which is multi pitch and have no desire to either, in fact much over 2 pitches and I'm rarely interested regardless of grade, too much faff not enough climbing for my tastes.
I don't feel I'm missing out on too much though, I'm happily still in bumbling along mode at E1'ish so most of the UK's rock is open to me if I wish to climb it without resorting to working something. But if its something of more significance, a route I'm going to care about having done or not, then I'd like to get it sussed before just jumping on it.
Anyways, to steer is back onto topic, regarding headpoint / top roping, I'd say the grade doesn't matter, I'd call it headpointing if you're practicing it in order to lead it (getting it sussed so your head sorted when on lead) or just top roping if you're just having a play on it to see if you can climb the rock with no real intention of trying it for real on lead.
You might be right, as I said I mainly just boulder these days but do have a soft spot for sport climbing too. Unfortunately due to living in the Lake District if I want to do routes, then most of what I have available is trad.
I think it's probably because I'd approach a harder trad route like I might a sport climb, just with crapper gear to contend with. And yes, I've never tried doing anything hard which is multi pitch and have no desire to either, in fact much over 2 pitches and I'm rarely interested regardless of grade, too much faff not enough climbing for my tastes.
I don't feel I'm missing out on too much though, I'm happily still in bumbling along mode at E1'ish so most of the UK's rock is open to me if I wish to climb it without resorting to working something. But if its something of more significance, a route I'm going to care about having done or not, then I'd like to get it sussed before just jumping on it.
Anyways, to steer is back onto topic, regarding headpoint / top roping, I'd say the grade doesn't matter, I'd call it headpointing if you're practicing it in order to lead it (getting it sussed so your head sorted when on lead) or just top roping if you're just having a play on it to see if you can climb the rock with no real intention of trying it for real on lead.
In reply to dinodinosaur:
I find that as my always fairly meager ability drops ever lower, so my sense of what is ethically acceptable (for me) lowers alongside it! So long as I'm having fun, and not causing anyone any problems, I increasingly feel I should do whatever I like......redpoint, headpoint, toiletpoint.......bring it on!
I find that as my always fairly meager ability drops ever lower, so my sense of what is ethically acceptable (for me) lowers alongside it! So long as I'm having fun, and not causing anyone any problems, I increasingly feel I should do whatever I like......redpoint, headpoint, toiletpoint.......bring it on!
2
8
I see I've given the armchair warriors something to moan about while I've been out climbing and enjoying the sun :P haha
Some good points presented here and personally I have classics I'm definitely saving for the onsight (comes the dervish) but I think headpointing a route isn't a bad thing as long as you aren’t destroying or hogging routes as long as the headpointed doesn't have the view he/she is as good as someone who onsights the same grade
Some good points presented here and personally I have classics I'm definitely saving for the onsight (comes the dervish) but I think headpointing a route isn't a bad thing as long as you aren’t destroying or hogging routes as long as the headpointed doesn't have the view he/she is as good as someone who onsights the same grade
In reply to dinodinosaur:
Not sure if this is as obvious a troll as it sounds, or if the replies have been full of the usual vacuous "do what you want" drivel, but just in case...
If something is too hard for you to climb, it's always worth remembering there is a very easy alternative - simply accept that and don't climb it, and instead climb one of the other millions of routes that you are capable of. (And maybe work up to climbing what you aren't capable of, and come back at a later date - good to have ambitions and aspirations rather than negating them).
Not sure if this is as obvious a troll as it sounds, or if the replies have been full of the usual vacuous "do what you want" drivel, but just in case...
If something is too hard for you to climb, it's always worth remembering there is a very easy alternative - simply accept that and don't climb it, and instead climb one of the other millions of routes that you are capable of. (And maybe work up to climbing what you aren't capable of, and come back at a later date - good to have ambitions and aspirations rather than negating them).
5
13
In reply to slab_happy:
Nice article. I did find it amusing Adrian Berry advocating going when the crag is quiet, then saying he had a team of spotters, belayers and photographers in tow.
Nice article. I did find it amusing Adrian Berry advocating going when the crag is quiet, then saying he had a team of spotters, belayers and photographers in tow.
In reply to Fiend:
Not sure is your reply is a troll, but if a route is too hard for me to onsight then I will headpoint it if I want to climb it badly enough to put in the effort. Other routes I may give a miss or save for later, although "saving for later" is only really relevant for alpine stuff where I may wait for top conditions.
I am at an age where my level is dropping rather than improving. Experience and technique are not improving by much anymore, while strength and stamina are going down.
What I will not do is give flying f*ck whether this is acceptable by anybody else's ethics (I am experienced enough to not trash placements, and polite enough not to hog a route if there is a queue...)
CB
Not sure is your reply is a troll, but if a route is too hard for me to onsight then I will headpoint it if I want to climb it badly enough to put in the effort. Other routes I may give a miss or save for later, although "saving for later" is only really relevant for alpine stuff where I may wait for top conditions.
I am at an age where my level is dropping rather than improving. Experience and technique are not improving by much anymore, while strength and stamina are going down.
What I will not do is give flying f*ck whether this is acceptable by anybody else's ethics (I am experienced enough to not trash placements, and polite enough not to hog a route if there is a queue...)
CB
13
In reply to cb294:
I don't think anyone else would give a f*ck about the ethics of any of this either, if everyone showed the same consideration to the rock and other climbers as you advocate.
> What I will not do is give flying f*ck whether this is acceptable by anybody else's ethics (I am experienced enough to not trash placements, and polite enough not to hog a route if there is a queue...)
> CB
I don't think anyone else would give a f*ck about the ethics of any of this either, if everyone showed the same consideration to the rock and other climbers as you advocate.
In reply to Fiend:
That approach is generally a good one, and I'm perfectly happy to have never done certain routes that I never quite got good or bold enough for. However, in order to progress my onsighting I have headpointed a few 1 star routes of higher grades in order to find out about climbing those grades. I try to pick decent routes that are maybe a bit neglected or dirty and then clean them up while headpointing so other, better climbers can benefit by having an onsight go.
That approach is generally a good one, and I'm perfectly happy to have never done certain routes that I never quite got good or bold enough for. However, in order to progress my onsighting I have headpointed a few 1 star routes of higher grades in order to find out about climbing those grades. I try to pick decent routes that are maybe a bit neglected or dirty and then clean them up while headpointing so other, better climbers can benefit by having an onsight go.
5
In reply to dinodinosaur:
Deciding to headpoint is a personal thing do there are no rules re what can be climbed in that style, just don't damage the route in any way (eg set up the rope carefully), avoid hogging classic routes on busy days and don't claim an onsight
Deciding to headpoint is a personal thing do there are no rules re what can be climbed in that style, just don't damage the route in any way (eg set up the rope carefully), avoid hogging classic routes on busy days and don't claim an onsight
In reply to Goucho:
This notion of the moral superiority of the trad onsight is one of the things which holds back trad climbers. Of course an onsight (in any type of climbing) is the best style but to get better at trad you have to try harder routes (as well as training indoors, going sport climbing, going bouldering and so on) and that means you will fall off / dog routes now and then. Seconding harder routes and/or headpointing is also a perfectly valid way of getting better and there's no need to look down on it. Most people won't get better simply by doing routes they can onsight (of course not everyone wants to get better).
There's also human curiosity - wanting to know what a hard but bold route is like. What's wrong with that, even if there's no intention to lead it one day? The one exception is for routes with particularly fragile rock but there aren't that many of those.
Personally I don't tend to headpoint because I'm not a fan of hard routes which are bold, whereas if a hard (for me) route has ok gear I'd generally give it a go on lead.
By the way, I don't see evidence of lots of toproping going on but then again I very rarely venture on the grit.
This notion of the moral superiority of the trad onsight is one of the things which holds back trad climbers. Of course an onsight (in any type of climbing) is the best style but to get better at trad you have to try harder routes (as well as training indoors, going sport climbing, going bouldering and so on) and that means you will fall off / dog routes now and then. Seconding harder routes and/or headpointing is also a perfectly valid way of getting better and there's no need to look down on it. Most people won't get better simply by doing routes they can onsight (of course not everyone wants to get better).
There's also human curiosity - wanting to know what a hard but bold route is like. What's wrong with that, even if there's no intention to lead it one day? The one exception is for routes with particularly fragile rock but there aren't that many of those.
Personally I don't tend to headpoint because I'm not a fan of hard routes which are bold, whereas if a hard (for me) route has ok gear I'd generally give it a go on lead.
By the way, I don't see evidence of lots of toproping going on but then again I very rarely venture on the grit.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Agree, except you don't really need to toprope to get to E6, unless it's bold E6. There are E6s around which have ok gear. That said, toproping certainly wouldn't hurt.
Agree, except you don't really need to toprope to get to E6, unless it's bold E6. There are E6s around which have ok gear. That said, toproping certainly wouldn't hurt.
In reply to Lord_ash2000:
An unusual view for a trad climber but climbing is different things to different people and there are no right or wrong perspectives.
An unusual view for a trad climber but climbing is different things to different people and there are no right or wrong perspectives.
2
In reply to Duncan Campbell:
You're spot on there on all counts. So what you want but bear in mind future aspirations.
You're spot on there on all counts. So what you want but bear in mind future aspirations.
In reply to Lord_ash2000:
No, I am with you on this. I first pick a route because it looks good, because it has an interesting sequence of moves, goes up to an interesting spire, or a variety of other reasons.
The choice of style comes second. Ground up climbing is of course the normal approach, but if this does not work or looks too dangerous, then it is headpoint or, if this is out of reach and I still want to climb the route, toprope only and forget about the lead!
I am definitely not going to kill myself on some unprotectable route on brittle Elbe sandstone just for style points!
CB
No, I am with you on this. I first pick a route because it looks good, because it has an interesting sequence of moves, goes up to an interesting spire, or a variety of other reasons.
The choice of style comes second. Ground up climbing is of course the normal approach, but if this does not work or looks too dangerous, then it is headpoint or, if this is out of reach and I still want to climb the route, toprope only and forget about the lead!
I am definitely not going to kill myself on some unprotectable route on brittle Elbe sandstone just for style points!
CB
In reply to Misha:
I didn't mean to imply that I thought you needed to toprope to get to E6. At Gogarth and Pembroke I imagine that climbing lots of E5s onsight and then trying E6s would be the normal route. My posts are really about grit, where lots of climbers live locally (and so run out of appealing routes) and the routes are short, bouldery and often deckable. This makes toproping/headpointing a sensible plan of action when staring blankly at the guidebook, IMO.
> Agree, except you don't really need to toprope to get to E6, unless it's bold E6. There are E6s around which have ok gear. That said, toproping certainly wouldn't hurt.
I didn't mean to imply that I thought you needed to toprope to get to E6. At Gogarth and Pembroke I imagine that climbing lots of E5s onsight and then trying E6s would be the normal route. My posts are really about grit, where lots of climbers live locally (and so run out of appealing routes) and the routes are short, bouldery and often deckable. This makes toproping/headpointing a sensible plan of action when staring blankly at the guidebook, IMO.
2
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Yes that's right. Personally I'm not really interested in headpointing bold grit routes because for me bold grit is not worth the risk on lead. Of course you can get it totally dialled to minimise the risk but then you might as well go redpointing, that would be better for your (non grit) climbing grade anyway. I can see why people headpoint and it's a perfectly acceptable style but it doesn't really interest me because the kind of routes where it's really necessary aren't the kind of routes I'm into. So it's not really the style, it's the type of climbing associated with it which puts me off.
Yes that's right. Personally I'm not really interested in headpointing bold grit routes because for me bold grit is not worth the risk on lead. Of course you can get it totally dialled to minimise the risk but then you might as well go redpointing, that would be better for your (non grit) climbing grade anyway. I can see why people headpoint and it's a perfectly acceptable style but it doesn't really interest me because the kind of routes where it's really necessary aren't the kind of routes I'm into. So it's not really the style, it's the type of climbing associated with it which puts me off.
1
1
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Of course headpointing isn't just a grit thing, see the news article about Gribin Wall.
Of course headpointing isn't just a grit thing, see the news article about Gribin Wall.
In reply to dinodinosaur:
Despite some of the usual reactionary rhetoric on here, I don't see "responsible" headpointing as an ethical issue, it's simply one of many different ways to climb a route. I tend to find that both styles offer quite different experiences; each with their own pro's and con's.
Although headpointing reduces the uncertainty, and therefore some of the risk and anxiety which most of us punters will associate with an onsight at the limit of our abilities, I don't "feel" as if I've climbed the route until I've achieved a clean free ascent.
One of the problems I've encountered with headpointing is being over or under rehearsed. Too much practice can lead to fatigue and failure, on the free attempt, or it can simply kill the whole excitement of the event and feel a bit empty. Too little practice and you can find yourself stranded and gripped in a life threatening situation with no solutions. On the positive side, the personal satisfaction of achieving a smooth and controlled ascent of a route at your absolute limit, after a few goes on the top rope, can be significantly greater than simply surviving the experience of scratching and flailing your way up the rock on a desperate onsight attempt.
So, because I like climbing to the best of my ability, value my life and limbs and don't have any desire to top rope routes which I have no intention of freeing and also because I object to adding avoidable wear and tear to the routes I climb, or hogging the routes which others might want to climb I have developed a loose set of personal guidelines which have worked pretty well for me up to now.
I'm not suggesting that these will work for you, but here they are:-
I will only top-rope routes which: a) are beyond my onsight limit, b) inspire me, c) which I believe I could get up cleanly after practice and d) don't have queues.
I will always rig the ropes carefully to avoid wearing out the top of the crag.
I will limit myself to 3 top rope attempts on my chosen route.
If I don't get it clean, within 3 attempts, it's too hard for me to consider a free ascent and I move on to something else.
What I've learned from this is:-
If I get it first go, I'm not trying hard enough!
If I get it second go, it might be on!
If I get it third go, it might not be on!
I will never never attempt a free ascent just based on the numbers, unless I'm feeling it; not even if Fiend is waving his enormous brass bollocks about the place
Happy Headpointing.
Despite some of the usual reactionary rhetoric on here, I don't see "responsible" headpointing as an ethical issue, it's simply one of many different ways to climb a route. I tend to find that both styles offer quite different experiences; each with their own pro's and con's.
Although headpointing reduces the uncertainty, and therefore some of the risk and anxiety which most of us punters will associate with an onsight at the limit of our abilities, I don't "feel" as if I've climbed the route until I've achieved a clean free ascent.
One of the problems I've encountered with headpointing is being over or under rehearsed. Too much practice can lead to fatigue and failure, on the free attempt, or it can simply kill the whole excitement of the event and feel a bit empty. Too little practice and you can find yourself stranded and gripped in a life threatening situation with no solutions. On the positive side, the personal satisfaction of achieving a smooth and controlled ascent of a route at your absolute limit, after a few goes on the top rope, can be significantly greater than simply surviving the experience of scratching and flailing your way up the rock on a desperate onsight attempt.
So, because I like climbing to the best of my ability, value my life and limbs and don't have any desire to top rope routes which I have no intention of freeing and also because I object to adding avoidable wear and tear to the routes I climb, or hogging the routes which others might want to climb I have developed a loose set of personal guidelines which have worked pretty well for me up to now.
I'm not suggesting that these will work for you, but here they are:-
I will only top-rope routes which: a) are beyond my onsight limit, b) inspire me, c) which I believe I could get up cleanly after practice and d) don't have queues.
I will always rig the ropes carefully to avoid wearing out the top of the crag.
I will limit myself to 3 top rope attempts on my chosen route.
If I don't get it clean, within 3 attempts, it's too hard for me to consider a free ascent and I move on to something else.
What I've learned from this is:-
If I get it first go, I'm not trying hard enough!
If I get it second go, it might be on!
If I get it third go, it might not be on!
I will never never attempt a free ascent just based on the numbers, unless I'm feeling it; not even if Fiend is waving his enormous brass bollocks about the place
Happy Headpointing.
6
In reply to Climbster:
>On the positive side, the personal satisfaction of achieving a smooth and controlled ascent of a route at your absolute limit, after a few goes on the top rope, can be significantly greater than simply surviving the experience of scratching and flailing your way up the rock on a desperate onsight attempt.>
Ah! This is the bit that doesn't ring true with me. Assuming that I have actually climbed it free on the onsight "attempt" - no matter how undignified the accompanying scratching and flailing - that will always produce a warmer inner glow than any type of rehearsed ascent of the same route.
>On the positive side, the personal satisfaction of achieving a smooth and controlled ascent of a route at your absolute limit, after a few goes on the top rope, can be significantly greater than simply surviving the experience of scratching and flailing your way up the rock on a desperate onsight attempt.>
Ah! This is the bit that doesn't ring true with me. Assuming that I have actually climbed it free on the onsight "attempt" - no matter how undignified the accompanying scratching and flailing - that will always produce a warmer inner glow than any type of rehearsed ascent of the same route.
5
1
In reply to Ian Parsons:
Fair play,each to their own.
I know when I'm trying hard enough, from the number of attempts it takes to get a clean ascent on top rope and I can work out exactly where my free climbing limit is; on any given day on any given route. After that, I still have to deal with the objective dangers of the route and commit myself to climbing a demanding route at my absolute limit if I want the free ascent badly enough.
This is why I enjoy a "hard" headpoint just as much as any other type of climbing. Nothing to do with the "undignified" nature of a poor onsight or the "inglorious" nature of a good headpoint; just the knowledge that it was my best effort.
The rules of the game are individually defined.
M
Fair play,each to their own.
I know when I'm trying hard enough, from the number of attempts it takes to get a clean ascent on top rope and I can work out exactly where my free climbing limit is; on any given day on any given route. After that, I still have to deal with the objective dangers of the route and commit myself to climbing a demanding route at my absolute limit if I want the free ascent badly enough.
This is why I enjoy a "hard" headpoint just as much as any other type of climbing. Nothing to do with the "undignified" nature of a poor onsight or the "inglorious" nature of a good headpoint; just the knowledge that it was my best effort.
The rules of the game are individually defined.
M
5
In reply to dinodinosaur:
I think you can do what you like if it's not affecting others. Many of course second a route then go back and lead it.
The thing with headpointing is that the grade of a route is for ground up ascents, not pre practiced. On safe routes the difference might not be much but on serious routes it can be huge. Hence why some have suggested a head point grading system.
Personally I agree with Honnald. Most as well bolt routes for those who want to climb ground up, and those who prefer pre practice / bold, could just solo them.
I think you can do what you like if it's not affecting others. Many of course second a route then go back and lead it.
The thing with headpointing is that the grade of a route is for ground up ascents, not pre practiced. On safe routes the difference might not be much but on serious routes it can be huge. Hence why some have suggested a head point grading system.
Personally I agree with Honnald. Most as well bolt routes for those who want to climb ground up, and those who prefer pre practice / bold, could just solo them.
1
In reply to stp:
I'd be just as happy with an H grade as an E grade, for my headpoints, if UKC had that option. As it doesn't, I record my headpoints as RP's; not because I think that one is ethically any better then the other but just to have an accurate record of my climbs.
As for bolts, despite Mr Honnalds obvious talent as a climber, I think his position, and yours, fails to factor in the environmental issues associated with proposing bolts on gritstone; which would be disastrous. I'm not sure how much Mr H knows about our small island, but I'm sure you know that some of our more popular crags/routes are already showing signs of serious wear and tear; unless that's your point of course
M
I'd be just as happy with an H grade as an E grade, for my headpoints, if UKC had that option. As it doesn't, I record my headpoints as RP's; not because I think that one is ethically any better then the other but just to have an accurate record of my climbs.
As for bolts, despite Mr Honnalds obvious talent as a climber, I think his position, and yours, fails to factor in the environmental issues associated with proposing bolts on gritstone; which would be disastrous. I'm not sure how much Mr H knows about our small island, but I'm sure you know that some of our more popular crags/routes are already showing signs of serious wear and tear; unless that's your point of course
M
In reply to dinodinosaur:
So to summarise:
Headpoint if you have doubts about onsighting it but still want to do it
Up to you what routes you do it on
But ultimately it's an easier option
Choosing something else is another option!
So to summarise:
Headpoint if you have doubts about onsighting it but still want to do it
Up to you what routes you do it on
But ultimately it's an easier option
Choosing something else is another option!
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