/ Replacement stitched tape on old cas

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IanMcC - on 21 Aug 2016
I have a set of HB Quadcams which I still like to use. As the tape is now rather old, I'd like to replace it, ideally with double length stitched tape. Is there any company which will do this for me?
(Please don't give me safety advice re. purchasing new cams)
gethin_allen on 21 Aug 2016
In reply to IanMcC:

Not in the EU I don't think. There are a few companies in the US that do it for about $8 a cam but obviously you have postage to pay for.
People on the rock+Ice website mention these people a lot
https://www.mtntools.com/cat/rclimb/cams/mt_camresling.htm

Could be worth it if you have a load to do as they are significantly cheaper per cam than most UK services.
IanMcC - on 21 Aug 2016
In reply to gethin_allen:

Thanks, Gethin.
ericinbristol - on 21 Aug 2016
In reply to IanMcC:

I made the mistake of sending old cams to Wild Country for re-slinging. Not only did they not re-sling them, they refused to return them to me.
danm - on 21 Aug 2016
In reply to ericinbristol:

To be fair, they'd have no option not to and they do make it very clear this is the case on their website.

There's two alternatives, neither of which is ideal, for replacing the tape.

1. Cord. Triple fishermans in 5.5mm dyneema cord probably best, bit bulky though.

2. 30cm dyneema open sling. Put it through doubled then use a String on the two end loops and clip in a dedicated biner. A bit faffy if you need to extend it further.
Dan Arkle - on 21 Aug 2016
In reply to danm:

Dan, has anyone produced any breaking test data on old cam slings?

Although the party line of 5 years is clear, my hunch is that they are likely to be strong enough. Especially as a 24kn sling could lose 45% of its strength and still be stronger than the 14kN cam its attached to.
ericinbristol - on 21 Aug 2016
In reply to danm:

Not prominently at that time,otherwise I wouldn't have sent them the cams - obviously. Indeed if I recall correctly not at all on their website at the time.
danm - on 21 Aug 2016
In reply to ericinbristol:

As far as I can remember, they've had that info up for at least the last decade or so? Well annoying though I'm sure. Be interesting how things pan out long term with some manufacturers moving over to an infinite lifetime for metal components, assuming they pass an inspection and functional test.

Arkle: why didn't you ask me in the pub? The 5 years thing is mainly a catch-all because people are really bad at retiring knackered gear, full-stop. I've tested unused 20 year old slings which were moderately weakened but safe enough, but also plenty of well used ones about 5-10 years old which were weak enough to ruin your day. Also don't assume that if the sling has 24kN on it that's how strong it is - it's usually attached to something thinner than the 10mm pin used in the sling tests so in practice it's usually weaker.
purplemonkeyelephant - on 21 Aug 2016
In reply to danm:

> To be fair, they'd have no option not to and they do make it very clear this is the case on their website.

What legal basis is there for not giving back someones old gear? Maybe I want to use it for non-climbing purposes, or hang it above my mantelpiece? Sending it back with a notice that informs the climber to remove it from active use would be enough surely? It would be like sending my car back to the dealer for a service, them saying it's not roadworthy and refusing to give it back.
deepsoup - on 21 Aug 2016
In reply to danm:
> To be fair, they'd have no option not to and they do make it very clear this is the case on their website.

Refusing to resling the old cams is fair enough I guess, refusing to return cams sent to them in error however is unnecessary and frankly just f*cking rude imo.

Could you post a link to where on the website they make it very clear? Maybe it's obvious and I'm just missing it, but I just had a bit of a look and couldn't seem to find it.

Has it been changed to reflect the fact that they recently became unable/unwilling to re-sling any cams at all, however new and shiny?


ericinbristol - on 22 Aug 2016
In reply to danm:

I am talking about at least 10 years ago
Hay - on 22 Aug 2016
In reply to IanMcC:
Hi Ian,
Hope you're well.
Did some pretty extensive looking into this recently - no dice I'm afraid.
DMM do their own but no-one else's and although they reintroduced some HB lines they didn't actually absorb the company (I don't think) so prob won't touch them.
Sorry, that's not much help...
Best to all.

Bruce




Wingnut - on 22 Aug 2016
In reply to danm:
>>30cm dyneema open sling. Put it through doubled then use a String on the two end loops and clip in a dedicated biner. A bit faffy if you need to extend it further.

Same sort of thing as Chris Tan Death Products:
http://www.kakibusok.plus.com/Equipment/ReslingCams/Resling.htm

timjones - on 22 Aug 2016
In reply to danm:

> To be fair, they'd have no option not to and they do make it very clear this is the case on their website.

How on earth can they have any right to retain another persons property?

If they believe that they aren't safe for continued use then they should be returned as they were delivered.
tjin - on 22 Aug 2016
In reply to Dan Arkle:

No data found on slings on a cam, however i did read data about older slings:
http://www.alpenverein.de/chameleon/public/680b860c-9024-12d6-b775-6f9219bc9963/Panorama-4-2015-Sich...

Over the 50% of Dyneema slings in the 6-10 year range tested had less than 16Kn strenght. These are 22Kn rated slings, some cams come with lower rated slings, if i remember correctly.
danm - on 22 Aug 2016
In reply to deepsoup:

> Has it been changed to reflect the fact that they recently became unable/unwilling to re-sling any cams at all, however new and shiny?

Looks that way, probably not worth the aggro for them.

Tjin: dyneema is less durable than nylon, some 8mm slings have a 2-3 yr recommended lifespan for example.
IanMcC - on 22 Aug 2016
In reply to all:
Thanks for the info and advice. Maybe I'll continue to rack them 2 or 3 to a crab, and clip a long quickdraw directly to the wire loop.
Ian

deepsoup - on 22 Aug 2016
In reply to danm:
> Looks that way

I still can't see any mention on their website, am I just being dim? Where is it?
danm - on 22 Aug 2016
In reply to deepsoup:

No, my reply confirmed that it isn't obviously visible on their site anymore, so I guess they've stopped providing the service.
Hay - on 22 Aug 2016
In reply to IanMcC:
Hi Ian,
Appreciate you're not wanting any smart-arsey forum H+S pish.
However, HBs had the same sort of slings as Camalots. I know that on Camalots the wide sling is there to spread the load on the wire. A narrow sling (or a krab) pulls the wire into a V and makes them quite a lot weaker. Like 50% weaker.
B.

danm - on 22 Aug 2016
In reply to Hay:

That's a really good point - I've got an old Metolius TCU and it has a fat nylon sling which is also double thickness around the wire U -stem.
gethin_allen on 22 Aug 2016
In reply to Hay:

> Hi Ian,

> Appreciate you're not wanting any smart-arsey forum H+S pish.

> However, HBs had the same sort of slings as Camalots. I know that on Camalots the wide sling is there to spread the load on the wire. A narrow sling (or a krab) pulls the wire into a V and makes them quite a lot weaker. Like 50% weaker.

> B.

This isn't the case with the HB cams, they are a totally different design. The later HB quad cams were actually sold with 12 mm dyneema slings.
andrewmcleod - on 22 Aug 2016
In reply to danm:

I was under the impression that dyneema was considerably more durable than nylon, hence increasing use of dyneema in things like backpacks and the straps on a Pantin foot ascender (changed from nylon to increase durability)?

I am not surprised 8mm dyneema slings only have a short shelf life but given that most nylon slings are at least 16mm I suspect the lifetime of an 8mm nylon sling might be months...
deepsoup - on 22 Aug 2016
In reply to danm:
Oh, I see what you mean.

I read it on here somewhere a while ago that they would no longer replace slings on any of their cams, regardless of age or condition. Something to do with the manufacturing being moved out of the UK.

I wouldn't expect them to shout it from the rooftops exactly, but it strikes me as a bit shabby that they don't seem to mention anywhere that they've withdrawn a fairly basic service that many of their customers will assume is still available. It'll probably be a wee while before I need to replace any cams, but when I do I think the new ones will be DMM.
danm - on 22 Aug 2016
In reply to andrewmcleod:

Dyneema is more durable with respect to abrasion, because of the very slippery nature of the polymer and because it is a very strong fibre. For the flexion you get in a sling, it's a different story, here the stiffness of the fibres is a hindrance, leading to high levels of localised strain. That's how it was explained to me years ago anyway. Likely to be a combination of this and the reduced amount of material which leads to the reduction in longevity.
Hay - on 23 Aug 2016
In reply to gethin_allen:
Was it extendable?
Have Only seen HBs with the fat sling.
All the other wire loop cams I've seen are either fat slings or extendable (which does the same thing). DMM, CAMP, Metolius.
gethin_allen on 23 Aug 2016
In reply to Hay:

Not extendable but not like the Camelot which is double thickness and sewn specially around wire loop.
As you say, the U stem design of the quad cam is very similar to the dmm and metolius design so I can't see there being an issue with retto-fitting an extendable sling.
IanMcC - on 23 Aug 2016
In reply to Hay:
That's not exactly true Bruce, my Quadcam 1.5 and 2.5 are on thick slings, the rest on thin.
P'S the thing with the short slings and the rubber "strings" works ok, but you would need a krab on all six cams.
Ian
radar - on 25 Aug 2016
In reply (generally)

I am currently in the process of getting my Camalots re- slung. BD list re -sling in their online shop, none North America requests need an email. So I emailed, couple of days later got a response - they will re-sling and re-trigger (where necessary) under warranty, I just need to get them to them. So I am expecting a big hit on the wallet postage wise (box weighs 2kg), plus insurance for 11 cams. But for the price of one and a bit Camalots I get 11 safe cams. Can't say fairer than that - in fact I think BD's customer service is brilliant, most of my cams are 16+ years old.

Customs declaration paperwork is a bit of a pain. Teeny tiny boxes to fill in: important bit is 'return' and under 'explanation' warranty repair.

IAs I will post them this morning I shall update when they are returned. So anyone considering it has a rough idea of how long it takes including shipping time.
Fiona Reid - on 25 Aug 2016
In reply to radar:
I posted my cams back to BD for reslinging earlier this summer. The process took just under 5 weeks from posting my cams to getting them back again.

They took 4 days to get to BD in Utah - I sent them via Royal Mail, global priority with insurance to cover the cost of replacing them. IIRC it was about 50 quid for 8 cams, size 4 down to .3. The package weighed <1.5kg.

BD had them about 2.5-3 weeks and then another 5-6 days for the return postage. This might have been quicker but they were on a mon-fri delivery day so spent the weekend sitting in the FedEx office in my city before being delivered on the Monday.

On their return journey FedEx (must be who BD use) called me to get them cleared through customs etc and I had to provide details of when I'd posted them to the USA and that the repair was being done for free under warranty. Once they had that they were released for delivery etc.

V. happy with the new slings.
Post edited at 08:46
radar - on 25 Aug 2016
In reply to Fiona Reid:

Same service I used to get them there. That was sort of the turnaround I was anticipating. I shan't delete my email from BD until I get them back then. Thanks for the heads up
Fiona Reid - on 25 Aug 2016
In reply to radar:

It's worth keeping a copy of your postage details for sending them to the USA - the export date will be one of the things that customs may request.

I did everything online so just emailed FedEx the various pdfs and that seemed fine.
CurlyStevo - on 25 Aug 2016
In reply to IanMcC:

I've done this with quadcams using beal tubular 16mm tape and a tape knot, I weight tightened the knots and they never then slipped further, they seemed welded to me. As a loop its plenty strong enough (18kn). I half hitched the tales and then sewed them to them selves.

http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/beal-tube-tape-16mm-F1432052?id_colour=125&channel_code=110&s...

A less bulky and stronger option would be this http://www.rockrun.com/edelrid-tech-web-12mm-x-100m-reel
L jezz - on 06 Sep 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

I posted anohter thread on a similar topic earlier asking about Edelrid Tech Web which looks better than 16mm tape for this purpose:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=649228
radar - on 19 Sep 2016
In reply

FedEx have just delivered my re-slung Camalots. So, just over 3 weeks door to door. Not been asked by courier about customs, but I'd recommend keeping all your paperwork just in case (parcels and customs can be a massive lottery, I've had expensive bike parts come through unchallenged, and cheap bits held up for import taxes. So I'm guessing I was lucky this time.).

So big hats off to Black Diamond warranty department.



ads.ukclimbing.com
Cloverleaf - on 19 Sep 2016
In reply to radar:

The couriers (or at least Fed Ex, FHL & DPD) will tend to ship things to you and then invoice for the customs charges, whereas Parcel Force/Royal Mail want payment up front before releasing the goods.

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