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Hi,
Does anyone know a way to rig a fig 8 in autoblock mode for belaying / lower a second?
Does anyone know a way to rig a fig 8 in autoblock mode for belaying / lower a second?
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In reply to MrWayne:
Throw figure 8 in bin, go to shop, buy reverso.
Sorry for the flippant answer, but why would you want to use an 8 like that when there are lighter plates specifically designed for the task in hand?
Throw figure 8 in bin, go to shop, buy reverso.
Sorry for the flippant answer, but why would you want to use an 8 like that when there are lighter plates specifically designed for the task in hand?
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In reply to LJC:
Because I'd like to know and learn to use all pieces of equipment.
I'm well aware there are other devices.
Because I'd like to know and learn to use all pieces of equipment.
I'm well aware there are other devices.
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In reply to MrWayne:
A figure 8 is a descender. And not a good one. Drag yourself into the 20th century and a reverso or similar.
A figure 8 is a descender. And not a good one. Drag yourself into the 20th century and a reverso or similar.
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In reply to MrWayne:
It's a variation on the canyoning method of using the 8 as a descender, which isn't very good because the rope isn't actually captive in the device, and the rope can detach if it is pushed a certain way.
Figure 8s, arguably, have a place in centre work, but should be left at home for personal climbing as they really have been superceded.
It's a variation on the canyoning method of using the 8 as a descender, which isn't very good because the rope isn't actually captive in the device, and the rope can detach if it is pushed a certain way.
Figure 8s, arguably, have a place in centre work, but should be left at home for personal climbing as they really have been superceded.
Post edited at 10:26
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In reply to MrWayne:
Lose the fig 8 and Larksfoot onto the master karabiner, as use that as a clumsy guidemode (no more clumsy than adjusting a clovehitch) apparently loading one tail still cinches the knot and would be perfect for bringing a second up on.
Ps* don't do this.
Lose the fig 8 and Larksfoot onto the master karabiner, as use that as a clumsy guidemode (no more clumsy than adjusting a clovehitch) apparently loading one tail still cinches the knot and would be perfect for bringing a second up on.
Ps* don't do this.
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In reply to MrWayne:
Despite what the others say, a figure of 8 is great for abseiling/lowering, just it's a bit bulky and heavy compared to modern devices which belay as well. You can belay from it if you deliberately want less braking power (less force on the system), but I don't know a guide mode. It's designed to not jam, which really is what guide mode is.
Despite what the others say, a figure of 8 is great for abseiling/lowering, just it's a bit bulky and heavy compared to modern devices which belay as well. You can belay from it if you deliberately want less braking power (less force on the system), but I don't know a guide mode. It's designed to not jam, which really is what guide mode is.
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In reply to Andy Nisbet:
I was thinking to hang the large hole off a carabiner (like an ATC guide) and thread the rope through the small hole with a blocking carabiner just like an ATC guide.
I was thinking to hang the large hole off a carabiner (like an ATC guide) and thread the rope through the small hole with a blocking carabiner just like an ATC guide.
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In reply to tom84:
Yes a figure 8 is a descender but what on earth do you think is wrong with it?
Apart from the need to carry an extra piece of gear I'd say that it is hard to beat for descending.
> A figure 8 is a descender. And not a good one. Drag yourself into the 20th century and a reverso or similar.
Yes a figure 8 is a descender but what on earth do you think is wrong with it?
Apart from the need to carry an extra piece of gear I'd say that it is hard to beat for descending.
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In reply to MrWayne:
But with an ATC guide, the rope to the climber jams rope to the belayer into the toothed groove in the event of a fall. This action would not be replicated with a Fig 8
But with an ATC guide, the rope to the climber jams rope to the belayer into the toothed groove in the event of a fall. This action would not be replicated with a Fig 8
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In reply to MrWayne:
Not a good idea as the hole is usually a ring rather than a slot and thereforeit won't keep the ropes aligned correctly in order to ensure that they lock off.
> I was thinking to hang the large hole off a carabiner (like an ATC guide) and thread the rope through the small hole with a blocking carabiner just like an ATC guide.
Not a good idea as the hole is usually a ring rather than a slot and thereforeit won't keep the ropes aligned correctly in order to ensure that they lock off.
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In reply to galpinos:
It does but this isn't what locks the rope in the device. It's the configuration of the live rope being on top of the control rope that locks it. The original guide plate -the Magic Plate made by NewAlp - was basically a slot in a flat aluminium plate, no grooves or teeth at all, and is just as efficient at locking off as the Reverso type devices. I'm sure I've seen a Fig 8 rigged up like the OP says, however I'd have thought that the size and shape (round) of the small hole of the 8 would allow the rope to escape the required configuration that I mention above?
> But with an ATC guide, the rope to the climber jams rope to the belayer into the toothed groove in the event of a fall. This action would not be replicated with a Fig 8
It does but this isn't what locks the rope in the device. It's the configuration of the live rope being on top of the control rope that locks it. The original guide plate -the Magic Plate made by NewAlp - was basically a slot in a flat aluminium plate, no grooves or teeth at all, and is just as efficient at locking off as the Reverso type devices. I'm sure I've seen a Fig 8 rigged up like the OP says, however I'd have thought that the size and shape (round) of the small hole of the 8 would allow the rope to escape the required configuration that I mention above?
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In reply to jon:
As above! I have an Edelrid Kilo Jul and has no teeth at all and works well in guide mode. The key is that the opening the rop goes through is thin enough to force the top rope (the one with the climber on) to trap the bottom rope. with a fig 8 being a bigger opening I certtainly wouldn't imagine this being guaranteed and can't see it working.
On a different note fig 8s do twist the rope on abseils which is annoying yet equally I also like to be able to use evey bit of gear I own in all it's possible variations but I don't think a fig 8 as an autoblock is one of them.
> It does but this isn't what locks the rope in the device. It's the configuration of the live rope being on top of the control rope that locks it. The original guide plate -the Magic Plate made by NewAlp - was basically a slot in a flat aluminium plate, no grooves or teeth at all, and is just as efficient at locking off as the Reverso type devices. I'm sure I've seen a Fig 8 rigged up like the OP says, however I'd have thought that the size and shape (round) of the small hole of the 8 would allow the rope to escape the required configuration that I mention above?
As above! I have an Edelrid Kilo Jul and has no teeth at all and works well in guide mode. The key is that the opening the rop goes through is thin enough to force the top rope (the one with the climber on) to trap the bottom rope. with a fig 8 being a bigger opening I certtainly wouldn't imagine this being guaranteed and can't see it working.
On a different note fig 8s do twist the rope on abseils which is annoying yet equally I also like to be able to use evey bit of gear I own in all it's possible variations but I don't think a fig 8 as an autoblock is one of them.
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In reply to jon:
But the guide plate was basically two slots, and the live rope ran over the control rope, locking it in the end of the slot. I can't quite envisage that on a Fig8?
But the guide plate was basically two slots, and the live rope ran over the control rope, locking it in the end of the slot. I can't quite envisage that on a Fig8?
In reply to galpinos:
Yes, I was just simplifying by saying a slot. My point was simply that the grooves and teeth had no bearing on the performance of it.
No. You could set it up as a Magic Plate but the rope would more than likely move around due to the hole being round rather than a slot. I just can't remember the way I've seen it set up. I'll have a search around and see what I can come up with.
The thing that baffles me with all these sort of threads is WHY folk are interested in using stuff in a way that it isn't designed to be used especially when a device that actually is designed for that purpose exists.
> But the guide plate was basically two slots
Yes, I was just simplifying by saying a slot. My point was simply that the grooves and teeth had no bearing on the performance of it.
> I can't quite envisage that on a Fig8?
No. You could set it up as a Magic Plate but the rope would more than likely move around due to the hole being round rather than a slot. I just can't remember the way I've seen it set up. I'll have a search around and see what I can come up with.
The thing that baffles me with all these sort of threads is WHY folk are interested in using stuff in a way that it isn't designed to be used especially when a device that actually is designed for that purpose exists.
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In reply to jon:
I do get this as sometime you end up in a situation where you need to improvise because you don't have the item designed for that purpose on you and knowing how to use everything in as many ways as possible can help. One example ascending a rope using a reverso in guide mode with just one prussik loop. Sounds obvious but not that many people realise it will work like that.
Pulling the nut down a wire so you can loop the wire over a bolt head. All little things that you never know when they might be usefull.
My question would definitely be more why would you carry a big heavy non-versatile item like a fig 8 when a reverso or similar does everything better.
> The thing that baffles me with all these sort of threads is WHY folk are interested in using stuff in a way that it isn't designed to be used especially when a device that actually is designed for that purpose exists.
I do get this as sometime you end up in a situation where you need to improvise because you don't have the item designed for that purpose on you and knowing how to use everything in as many ways as possible can help. One example ascending a rope using a reverso in guide mode with just one prussik loop. Sounds obvious but not that many people realise it will work like that.
Pulling the nut down a wire so you can loop the wire over a bolt head. All little things that you never know when they might be usefull.
My question would definitely be more why would you carry a big heavy non-versatile item like a fig 8 when a reverso or similar does everything better.
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In reply to jon:
Yep, I guess that, I was trying to make the point it was a slot, not a hole so the live rope was forced to trap the control rope, but with a hole, it wouldn't.
Because that's what the cutting edge Alpinists talk about in their blogs.
> Yes, I was just simplifying by saying a slot. My point was simply that the grooves and teeth had no bearing on the performance of it.
Yep, I guess that, I was trying to make the point it was a slot, not a hole so the live rope was forced to trap the control rope, but with a hole, it wouldn't.
> The thing that baffles me with all these sort of threads is WHY folk are interested in using stuff in a way that it isn't designed to be used especially when a device that actually is designed for that purpose exists.
Because that's what the cutting edge Alpinists talk about in their blogs.
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In reply to MrWayne:
What would be a more useful skill to learn is the Auto Blocking Munter Hitch. You can then don't have to take the Fig 8 out of the garage draw it's been residing in for the last 25yrs. You only require an extra carabiner to make the Standard Munter hitch into a locking munter.
http://www.climbing.com/skills/auto-blocking-munter/
What would be a more useful skill to learn is the Auto Blocking Munter Hitch. You can then don't have to take the Fig 8 out of the garage draw it's been residing in for the last 25yrs. You only require an extra carabiner to make the Standard Munter hitch into a locking munter.
http://www.climbing.com/skills/auto-blocking-munter/
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In reply to galpinos:
Ah, I think maybe this is what I was trying to dredge out of my addled brain. It wasn't the small hole of the 8. It wasn't being used in 'guide' mode. It was being used for abseiling not belaying. The only bit I got right was that it locked! Scroll down to the bottom of this: http://www.ropelab.com.au/figure-8-descenders/
Ah, I think maybe this is what I was trying to dredge out of my addled brain. It wasn't the small hole of the 8. It wasn't being used in 'guide' mode. It was being used for abseiling not belaying. The only bit I got right was that it locked! Scroll down to the bottom of this: http://www.ropelab.com.au/figure-8-descenders/
In reply to jon:
Yep seen that and like the auto stop mode.
The thing with figure 8 is that it is really versatile. Also they are not necessarily heavier than other devices. E.g the mammut bionic is only 67g so comparable to and less than most guide devices.
Yep seen that and like the auto stop mode.
The thing with figure 8 is that it is really versatile. Also they are not necessarily heavier than other devices. E.g the mammut bionic is only 67g so comparable to and less than most guide devices.
In reply to MrWayne:
Out of interest, in what way are they more versatile than a reverso?
> The thing with figure 8 is that it is really versatile.
Out of interest, in what way are they more versatile than a reverso?
In reply to David Coley:
Smoother rappel and locking during rappel.
Also when belaying you can rig it in a few different configurations to adjust friction. With an ATC device you just have the one option.
In reality probably makes no difference but the fact is there's a multitude of ways to rig a fig 8 and really only one way to rig an ATC. Probably that's a reason that contributes to the perceived safety of the ATC since less can go wrong.
I'm not an expert on Fig 8s, but that's my understanding. Also it is worth mentioning that Fig 8s are cheaper (albeit the cost difference is about £10).
Smoother rappel and locking during rappel.
Also when belaying you can rig it in a few different configurations to adjust friction. With an ATC device you just have the one option.
In reality probably makes no difference but the fact is there's a multitude of ways to rig a fig 8 and really only one way to rig an ATC. Probably that's a reason that contributes to the perceived safety of the ATC since less can go wrong.
I'm not an expert on Fig 8s, but that's my understanding. Also it is worth mentioning that Fig 8s are cheaper (albeit the cost difference is about £10).
Post edited at 14:33
In reply to kermit_uk:
Well OK then, a recent thread where the OP was something along the lines of 'I want to use an alpine butterfly for tying on'. Why, when there are knots that are adapted/designed for this purpose and the proposed knot isn't. It's not like 'whoops, I've dropped my bowline and forgot to bring my fig8... but wait, I just happen to have a spare alpine butterfy in my sac...'
> I do get this as sometime you end up in a situation where you need to improvise because you don't have the item designed for that purpose
Well OK then, a recent thread where the OP was something along the lines of 'I want to use an alpine butterfly for tying on'. Why, when there are knots that are adapted/designed for this purpose and the proposed knot isn't. It's not like 'whoops, I've dropped my bowline and forgot to bring my fig8... but wait, I just happen to have a spare alpine butterfy in my sac...'
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In reply to MrWayne:
Belaying with two ropes with a Fig 8 is a total ballache. The force multiplier from a Fig 8 is low, which makes it unsuitable for many users and rope combo's. Modern belay devices are far superior especially if you are using thinner ropes or don't have a particularly strong grip. Modern guide style devices also usually have 3 modes - two manual modes with higher/lower friction depending on if you use the grooves plus autoblock which can be used for emergency ascending and guide-mode belaying. All that in a package lighter and more compact than a Fig 8.
> Smoother rappel and locking during rappel.
> Also when belaying you can rig it in a few different configurations to adjust friction. With an ATC device you just have the one option.
> In reality probably makes no difference but the fact is there's a multitude of ways to rig a fig 8 and really only one way to rig an ATC. Probably that's a reason that contributes to the perceived safety of the ATC since less can go wrong.
> I'm not an expert on Fig 8s, but that's my understanding. Also it is worth mentioning that Fig 8s are cheaper (albeit the cost difference is about £10).
Belaying with two ropes with a Fig 8 is a total ballache. The force multiplier from a Fig 8 is low, which makes it unsuitable for many users and rope combo's. Modern belay devices are far superior especially if you are using thinner ropes or don't have a particularly strong grip. Modern guide style devices also usually have 3 modes - two manual modes with higher/lower friction depending on if you use the grooves plus autoblock which can be used for emergency ascending and guide-mode belaying. All that in a package lighter and more compact than a Fig 8.
In reply to MrWayne:
Not true - add an extra carabiner and you increase friction. Fig 8s belong with your Whillan's harness - there's absolutely no need for them these days.
> Also when belaying you can rig it in a few different configurations to adjust friction. With an ATC device you just have the one option.
Not true - add an extra carabiner and you increase friction. Fig 8s belong with your Whillan's harness - there's absolutely no need for them these days.
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In reply to whenry:
I agree.
> Not true - add an extra carabiner and you increase friction. Fig 8s belong with your Whillan's harness - there's absolutely no need for them these days.
I agree.
In reply to danm:
Another issue with fig 8's is that after being bashed about hanging off your harness, the surface gets roughed up and then slashes your rope sheath.
On most modern devices the rope wearing surfaces are hidden from damage.
Another issue with fig 8's is that after being bashed about hanging off your harness, the surface gets roughed up and then slashes your rope sheath.
On most modern devices the rope wearing surfaces are hidden from damage.
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In reply to Rick Graham:
To be realistic a "bashed about" figure 8 will probably inflict one hell of a lot less wear on your rope than all the rock that an active climber will drag it over
> Another issue with fig 8's is that after being bashed about hanging off your harness, the surface gets roughed up and then slashes your rope sheath.
> On most modern devices the rope wearing surfaces are hidden from damage.
To be realistic a "bashed about" figure 8 will probably inflict one hell of a lot less wear on your rope than all the rock that an active climber will drag it over
In reply to timjones:
It still being an extra thing to cause wear is possibly the point I think though.
I've only used figure of eights indoors during my teens in the 90's.
It still being an extra thing to cause wear is possibly the point I think though.
I've only used figure of eights indoors during my teens in the 90's.
Post edited at 17:53
In reply to timjones:
I beg to differ
Loaded rope over sharp metal edges, not good. Why do we use one end of a quickdrawer for a bolt hanger , the other for the rope?
FFIW my old fig 8 is in the fire escape kit for the 2nd storey bedroom.
> To be realistic a "bashed about" figure 8 will probably inflict one hell of a lot less wear on your rope than all the rock that an active climber will drag it over
I beg to differ
Loaded rope over sharp metal edges, not good. Why do we use one end of a quickdrawer for a bolt hanger , the other for the rope?
FFIW my old fig 8 is in the fire escape kit for the 2nd storey bedroom.
Post edited at 17:55
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In reply to Rick Graham:
Because the contact with steel hangers can lead to nicks that will be significantly sharper than anything that contact with rock will inflict on the rope bearing surfaces of a figure 8.
I'd have to have a closer look but I wonder if the rope bearing surfaces of a figure 8 are likely to have any significant
contact with the rock?
> I beg to differ
> Loaded rope over sharp metal edges, not good. Why do we use one end of a quickdrawer for a bolt hanger , the other for the rope?
Because the contact with steel hangers can lead to nicks that will be significantly sharper than anything that contact with rock will inflict on the rope bearing surfaces of a figure 8.
I'd have to have a closer look but I wonder if the rope bearing surfaces of a figure 8 are likely to have any significant
contact with the rock?
In reply to MrWayne:
Read this about 7 years ago, threw my fig8 in the bin. Wont ever use them again.
http://theuiaa.org/upload_area/files/1/Karabiner_Breakings_when_using_a_Fig...
They are also simply not designed for double ropes, as the two lines just rub or twist around each other. Certainly cant use it to bring up two seconds. Would rather have two italian / munter hitches for that given no other choice.
They have their uses (we use them at work for single ropes, under constant tension, usually locked off) and perhaps in caving they dont clog up with mud so much, but they are very much obsolete on a climbing rack.
Read this about 7 years ago, threw my fig8 in the bin. Wont ever use them again.
http://theuiaa.org/upload_area/files/1/Karabiner_Breakings_when_using_a_Fig...
They are also simply not designed for double ropes, as the two lines just rub or twist around each other. Certainly cant use it to bring up two seconds. Would rather have two italian / munter hitches for that given no other choice.
They have their uses (we use them at work for single ropes, under constant tension, usually locked off) and perhaps in caving they dont clog up with mud so much, but they are very much obsolete on a climbing rack.
In reply to MrWayne:
Well to counter that, with a Reverso one can:
1. guide mode belay, or indirect belay,
2. friction can be changed by adding in carabiners (in indirect mode only)
3. can be used to jug a rope
4. can be used as a floating plate lower
5. bring up two seconds safely
6. much better with double ropes.
I really don't think you can realistically claim a fig 8 is more versatile. One thing a small fig 8 is good for is rapping above 7000m when you can't take your gloves off.
> Smoother rappel and locking during rappel.
> Also when belaying you can rig it in a few different configurations to adjust friction. With an ATC device you just have the one option.
> In reality probably makes no difference but the fact is there's a multitude of ways to rig a fig 8 and really only one way to rig an ATC.
Well to counter that, with a Reverso one can:
1. guide mode belay, or indirect belay,
2. friction can be changed by adding in carabiners (in indirect mode only)
3. can be used to jug a rope
4. can be used as a floating plate lower
5. bring up two seconds safely
6. much better with double ropes.
I really don't think you can realistically claim a fig 8 is more versatile. One thing a small fig 8 is good for is rapping above 7000m when you can't take your gloves off.
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In reply to David Coley:
Pretty much a reprise of what I said a couple of posts earlier
What do you mean by a floating plate lower? I can think of a couple of techniques for safer lowering than the traditional semi-direct belay but both could also be done with a Fig 8.
Pretty much a reprise of what I said a couple of posts earlier
What do you mean by a floating plate lower? I can think of a couple of techniques for safer lowering than the traditional semi-direct belay but both could also be done with a Fig 8.
In reply to danm:
From the source of much such knowledge: http://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/13SelfRescueSenarios2.htm#fromafloating...
> What do you mean by a floating plate lower? I can think of a couple of techniques for safer lowering than the traditional semi-direct belay but both could also be done with a Fig 8.
From the source of much such knowledge: http://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/13SelfRescueSenarios2.htm#fromafloating...
In reply to MrWayne:
If you don't have a device that was actually engineered to be used in guide mode, just use a Munter Hitch. Forget the 8. No extra gear required.
If you don't have a device that was actually engineered to be used in guide mode, just use a Munter Hitch. Forget the 8. No extra gear required.
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In reply to David Coley:
Figured it was probably that, a re-hash of an old-school lowering method which originally used a Fig 8, typically used on stretcher lowers. Last time I used such a thing was during an impromptu sheep rescue on High Crag in Buttermere, quite a few years back.
Figured it was probably that, a re-hash of an old-school lowering method which originally used a Fig 8, typically used on stretcher lowers. Last time I used such a thing was during an impromptu sheep rescue on High Crag in Buttermere, quite a few years back.
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