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You could not make it up
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37167700
Where is Kirkoman when you need him for a hearty response!
Those pesky cameras catch too many out.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37167700
Where is Kirkoman when you need him for a hearty response!
Those pesky cameras catch too many out.
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In reply to neilh:
errrrrmmm.....
well thing is...it shows that from about 45 mins in he got a seat.
It doesn't show that there were seats available at 30 ish mins in when he was sitting on the floor.
So it's a non-news piece really isn't.
(this is not getting into a discussion of whether it was staged or not as I'm sure everyone has their opinion and even as a supporter of his I expect it was at least exaggerated to make a point, though a very real one, but simply looking at how the evidence is being used to say something that is not actually clear in said evidence).
errrrrmmm.....
well thing is...it shows that from about 45 mins in he got a seat.
It doesn't show that there were seats available at 30 ish mins in when he was sitting on the floor.
So it's a non-news piece really isn't.
(this is not getting into a discussion of whether it was staged or not as I'm sure everyone has their opinion and even as a supporter of his I expect it was at least exaggerated to make a point, though a very real one, but simply looking at how the evidence is being used to say something that is not actually clear in said evidence).
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In reply to Scarab9:
There are only stills there but the article says "But Virgin said CCTV showed Mr Corbyn and his team walking past available seating before starting filming."
Still, Corbyn's a man of principle so that must be wrong.
> errrrrmmm.....
> It doesn't show that there were seats available at 30 ish mins in when he was sitting on the floor.
There are only stills there but the article says "But Virgin said CCTV showed Mr Corbyn and his team walking past available seating before starting filming."
Still, Corbyn's a man of principle so that must be wrong.
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In reply to Scarab9: Virgin are saying he walked past empty seats before making the film
https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/about/media-room
https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/about/media-room
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In reply to Mike Stretford:
ah thanks. That does say more doesn't it. Though I still feel it's not 'definite' given that no one can claim the cctv shows what's on the tickets about whether they're reserved or not.
I do think and did originally that it was likely staged though. Doesnt' put me off. I just think he's being pressured (by his own supporters too) to get in the media more and listened to his team for once. Daft move in this case but not one that bothers me.
ah thanks. That does say more doesn't it. Though I still feel it's not 'definite' given that no one can claim the cctv shows what's on the tickets about whether they're reserved or not.
I do think and did originally that it was likely staged though. Doesnt' put me off. I just think he's being pressured (by his own supporters too) to get in the media more and listened to his team for once. Daft move in this case but not one that bothers me.
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In reply to Scarab9:
This one seems pretty damning
https://virgin-trains.mynewsdesk.com/images/cctv-footage-from-corbyn-train-...
he walks past empty seats before he made the film, they are unreserved if they don't have a ticket sticking out, like in the one on the original news story.
This one seems pretty damning
https://virgin-trains.mynewsdesk.com/images/cctv-footage-from-corbyn-train-...
he walks past empty seats before he made the film, they are unreserved if they don't have a ticket sticking out, like in the one on the original news story.
Post edited at 15:43
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In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:
He was probably looking for the 'segregated coach' , that he was jabberring on about, last year ?....
> His campaign remains on track. He is proud to stand up for ordinary people...
He was probably looking for the 'segregated coach' , that he was jabberring on about, last year ?....
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In reply to neilh:
I'm not sure that this isn't preferable to a wannabe PM who can't organise a train seat reservation.
I'm not sure that this isn't preferable to a wannabe PM who can't organise a train seat reservation.
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In reply to neilh:
It could be a plot line from The Thick of It
Armando Iannucci is getting his scripts for free...
It could be a plot line from The Thick of It
Armando Iannucci is getting his scripts for free...
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
That's what got me. It's not as if the hustings had come out of the blue, it just made him/his office incompetent.
That's what got me. It's not as if the hustings had come out of the blue, it just made him/his office incompetent.
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In reply to steveliput:
He's already said that the way politics is going, there's no longer material for The Thick of It as it's now just called, "The News"
> It could be a plot line from The Thick of It
> Armando Iannucci is getting his scripts for free...
He's already said that the way politics is going, there's no longer material for The Thick of It as it's now just called, "The News"
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In reply to neilh:
He should have tried London Midland to London, getting on at Nuneaton. You can't pre-book seats and I've often stood for 100 miles.
It took a good 5 minutes before someone was shamed into standing up for my 88 year old mother last time we travelled.
A mystery why there are only 4 coaches.
He should have tried London Midland to London, getting on at Nuneaton. You can't pre-book seats and I've often stood for 100 miles.
It took a good 5 minutes before someone was shamed into standing up for my 88 year old mother last time we travelled.
A mystery why there are only 4 coaches.
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In reply to Babika:
We have all been there.......
It does makes a complete mockery of his percieved virtue that he is " different".If you cannot see that and just laugh at the position then all is lost.
Treat all politicians with kid gloves when they make their "different" claims, from John Major onwards it does nobody any favours least of all their supporters.
We have all been there.......
It does makes a complete mockery of his percieved virtue that he is " different".If you cannot see that and just laugh at the position then all is lost.
Treat all politicians with kid gloves when they make their "different" claims, from John Major onwards it does nobody any favours least of all their supporters.
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They just picked the route to pull this stunt on.
A train full going to Newcastle ...?
Should've gone (copyright Specsavers) the other direction.
A train full going to Newcastle ...?
Should've gone (copyright Specsavers) the other direction.
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In reply to neilh:
I'm not sure I care that it was a contrived photo op, the whole premise of it is bollox anyway.
Tax payers cover an upgrade for politicians when travelling - not so they are more comfy and enjoy the gravy train - but so they can actually work whilst travelling rather than lounge idly on the floor reading a newspaper wallowing in their own PR mess
I'm not sure I care that it was a contrived photo op, the whole premise of it is bollox anyway.
Tax payers cover an upgrade for politicians when travelling - not so they are more comfy and enjoy the gravy train - but so they can actually work whilst travelling rather than lounge idly on the floor reading a newspaper wallowing in their own PR mess
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In reply to Mike Stretford:
I originally wrote:
I don't have a view on whether this thing was staged but what you've said here is incorrect. Most trains of this type have a little LCD panel with reservations these days
But then I've seen a picture of him on a train (the same one presumably) where there are tickets on seats, so maybe this wasn't one of those trains after all!
> they are unreserved if they don't have a ticket sticking out, like in the one on the original news story.
I originally wrote:
I don't have a view on whether this thing was staged but what you've said here is incorrect. Most trains of this type have a little LCD panel with reservations these days
But then I've seen a picture of him on a train (the same one presumably) where there are tickets on seats, so maybe this wasn't one of those trains after all!
Post edited at 18:45
In reply to Tyler:
Yeah, this one
http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/E9A1/production/_90890895_jc016-...
(edited after your edit)
The one were he is sat down in a half empty carriage before York is also damning...... York is the first stop for this train, nobody could have got off.
To be honest, I think this is a fair stunt for a protester, which is what Jeremy is good at.... trains can get very crowded at times. For leader of the opposition it's just embarrassing.
Yeah, this one
http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/E9A1/production/_90890895_jc016-...
(edited after your edit)
The one were he is sat down in a half empty carriage before York is also damning...... York is the first stop for this train, nobody could have got off.
To be honest, I think this is a fair stunt for a protester, which is what Jeremy is good at.... trains can get very crowded at times. For leader of the opposition it's just embarrassing.
Post edited at 18:53
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In reply to balmybaldwin:
Of all the people to castigate in the rail network - Branson/ virgin- a well known pr genius. They should have picked on somebody else.
Of all the people to castigate in the rail network - Branson/ virgin- a well known pr genius. They should have picked on somebody else.
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In reply to Mike Stretford:
https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/about/media-room/#/images/cctv-footage-from-...
Except when he walks through coach H
https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/about/media-room/#/images/cctv-footage-from-...
Except when he walks through coach H
In reply to neilh:
A bit of a rum do, this. Though reading Virgin's response, they come out of it very well.
T.
A bit of a rum do, this. Though reading Virgin's response, they come out of it very well.
T.
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In reply to tspoon1981:
Yeah, that's unreserved, were he later sits down. They obviously wanted to get footage of a crowded carriage. As Babika points out above, the London Midland stopper services would have been a good bet for a genuinely overcrowded train (Edit: Which is one good reason why the London to Crewe part of HS2 would be a good build, with lower speed specs)
Yeah, that's unreserved, were he later sits down. They obviously wanted to get footage of a crowded carriage. As Babika points out above, the London Midland stopper services would have been a good bet for a genuinely overcrowded train (Edit: Which is one good reason why the London to Crewe part of HS2 would be a good build, with lower speed specs)
Post edited at 19:12
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In reply to Mike Stretford:
I have been on plenty of overcrowded trains in other parts of the world. It's not a particularly British issue despite what we think .Even in Japan which is unbelievably efficient it can be standing room only on local services.
I have been on plenty of overcrowded trains in other parts of the world. It's not a particularly British issue despite what we think .Even in Japan which is unbelievably efficient it can be standing room only on local services.
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In reply to neilh: Sure, but it doesn't stop us trying to improve thing... and I think I better West Coast Mainline could be an economic driver.
Not sure about Southern though, that does seem more like incompetent management.
Not sure about Southern though, that does seem more like incompetent management.
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In reply to Mike Stretford:
Agreed on Southern. Virgin are course investing in new trains on that east coast line anyway as per their statement on the issue.
Just not sure that any improvements will drastically improve the availability of seating for everyone in the London area.
Agreed on Southern. Virgin are course investing in new trains on that east coast line anyway as per their statement on the issue.
Just not sure that any improvements will drastically improve the availability of seating for everyone in the London area.
Post edited at 19:55
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In reply to Lion Bakes:
Elmer Fudd, even...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_Fudd
Talk about #epicfailures...
Elmer Fudd, even...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_Fudd
Talk about #epicfailures...
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In reply to neilh:
Local services maybe, but the Japanese probably don't have it for 100 miles. And as our trains are around the most expensive per mile in the world, its even less acceptable.
Of course if we were all paying 3p then perhaps some would be prepared to ride on the roof.
> I have been on plenty of overcrowded trains in other parts of the world. It's not a particularly British issue despite what we think .Even in Japan which is unbelievably efficient it can be standing room only on local services.
Local services maybe, but the Japanese probably don't have it for 100 miles. And as our trains are around the most expensive per mile in the world, its even less acceptable.
Of course if we were all paying 3p then perhaps some would be prepared to ride on the roof.
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In reply to neilh:
I see his line now is there were seats but not two together for him and his wife. Obviously, like anyone would, he therefore chose to sit on the floor. And lie about it being "ranpacked"
I see his line now is there were seats but not two together for him and his wife. Obviously, like anyone would, he therefore chose to sit on the floor. And lie about it being "ranpacked"
Post edited at 21:19
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In reply to Babika:
I'd pay a lot more than that - just imagine, no stink of chemical toilets...
> Of course if we were all paying 3p then perhaps some would be prepared to ride on the roof.
I'd pay a lot more than that - just imagine, no stink of chemical toilets...
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In reply to Babika:
Yes they do. If you don't book ahead it's not that unusual to have to stand at busy times.
The idea people in the UK seem to have that it is their right to have a seat on commuter trains is barking. You didn't get that even in the golden days of nationalised milk and honey in the 1970s. Come to think of it, quite a lot of the time you didn't even get a train.....
> Local services maybe, but the Japanese probably don't have it for 100 miles. And as our trains are around the most expensive per mile in the world, its even less acceptable.
>Yes they do. If you don't book ahead it's not that unusual to have to stand at busy times.
The idea people in the UK seem to have that it is their right to have a seat on commuter trains is barking. You didn't get that even in the golden days of nationalised milk and honey in the 1970s. Come to think of it, quite a lot of the time you didn't even get a train.....
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In reply to neilh:
This ^^^
National Rail was bloody awful trains late if at all, it lacked investment, was hogtied by unions and run by committee why on earth would we want it back?
What we need back is a nationalised bus service that services every village.
This ^^^
National Rail was bloody awful trains late if at all, it lacked investment, was hogtied by unions and run by committee why on earth would we want it back?
What we need back is a nationalised bus service that services every village.
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In reply to balmybaldwin:
The thing that's a bit contradictory on the trains I use mostly is that the most expensive tickets (open, all day jobs) more or less guarantee that you won't get a seat on a lot of the ones I use (cross country), even travelling early afternoon - so the people who've paid about £25 to go from Brum to Leeds get a seat, but I, with my £60 ticket, don't (I often don't know until an hour before which train I'll get). They usually have an "unreserved" carriage (but it's usually full), and you can theoretically book a seat by text ten mins before, but that rarely works.
Hence I usually travel down to Brum on a Sunday night as the upgrade to first is only £15 so I just pay that myself - but going home on Thursday or (worse) Friday (shudder) it's a nightmare.
The thing that's a bit contradictory on the trains I use mostly is that the most expensive tickets (open, all day jobs) more or less guarantee that you won't get a seat on a lot of the ones I use (cross country), even travelling early afternoon - so the people who've paid about £25 to go from Brum to Leeds get a seat, but I, with my £60 ticket, don't (I often don't know until an hour before which train I'll get). They usually have an "unreserved" carriage (but it's usually full), and you can theoretically book a seat by text ten mins before, but that rarely works.
Hence I usually travel down to Brum on a Sunday night as the upgrade to first is only £15 so I just pay that myself - but going home on Thursday or (worse) Friday (shudder) it's a nightmare.
In reply to Postmanpat:
On Cross Country between Leeds and Brum it's usual to stand/sit on the floor at all times (possibly more so on off-peak services as that's when the real cheapies are, so they're full of retired people on jollies).
> Yes they do. If you don't book ahead it's not that unusual to have to stand at busy times.
On Cross Country between Leeds and Brum it's usual to stand/sit on the floor at all times (possibly more so on off-peak services as that's when the real cheapies are, so they're full of retired people on jollies).
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In reply to neilh:
He's outed himself straightaway. We all know if the train is packed you are allowed to sit on the luggage racks but otherwise you stand and sway not sit on the floor like some hippy student who's just back from their gap yah.
He's outed himself straightaway. We all know if the train is packed you are allowed to sit on the luggage racks but otherwise you stand and sway not sit on the floor like some hippy student who's just back from their gap yah.
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In reply to Bobling:
In his head he still is some hippy student.....
> He's outed himself straightaway. We all know if the train is packed you are allowed to sit on the luggage racks but otherwise you stand and sway not sit on the floor like some hippy student who's just back from their gap yah.
>In his head he still is some hippy student.....
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In reply to neilh:
LOL!!! :-D
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2016/08/23/2408-MATT-GALLERY-WE...
LOL!!! :-D
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2016/08/23/2408-MATT-GALLERY-WE...
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In reply to neilh:
Apparently, Corbyn said that the train was 'Ram Packed'.
I'm not going to supply a link for obvious reasons, but the Urban Dictionary definition of it is quite interesting...
Apparently, Corbyn said that the train was 'Ram Packed'.
I'm not going to supply a link for obvious reasons, but the Urban Dictionary definition of it is quite interesting...
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In reply to neilh:
Of course if Jezza wanted to be true to the current Labour membership who support him, he should have joined them in the first class compartment, posting on twitter about how guilty they all feel.
Of course if Jezza wanted to be true to the current Labour membership who support him, he should have joined them in the first class compartment, posting on twitter about how guilty they all feel.
Post edited at 01:17
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In reply to Babika:
All I can say is you maybe surprised, so was I at the time.as I said it is a more common issue than we think.
All I can say is you maybe surprised, so was I at the time.as I said it is a more common issue than we think.
In reply to Scarab9:
And the other passengers on the train seem to corroborate JC's story. Another posh boy media slur? Big Ger and Postmanpat bought it at least
And the other passengers on the train seem to corroborate JC's story. Another posh boy media slur? Big Ger and Postmanpat bought it at least
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In reply to RyanOsborne:
Well Corbyn himself has now acknowledged there were available seats, so no slur.
Well Corbyn himself has now acknowledged there were available seats, so no slur.
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In reply to RyanOsborne:
So we're back to a man who wants be in charge of the country who can't organise booking a seat on a train.
So we're back to a man who wants be in charge of the country who can't organise booking a seat on a train.
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
You mean this guy?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/great-train-snobbery-george-o...
You mean this guy?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/great-train-snobbery-george-o...
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In reply to wintertree:
Yes, but a lot of people forget that there are a lot of fighting cowboys on the roof of moving trains which can be a pain.
> I'd pay a lot more than that - just imagine, no stink of chemical toilets...
Yes, but a lot of people forget that there are a lot of fighting cowboys on the roof of moving trains which can be a pain.
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In reply to neilh:
I am now waiting for some journo to ask the other question. " Who was paying for his wife's ticket and is she his " secretary" like alot of MP's wifes or family?".
I hope for his supporters sake that JC is clean as a whistle on this one.I can imagine somebody digging around on this from the Guardian.
And I reckon that the comment from one of his staff that Virgin/Branson is part of the " establishment" is class. You mean the guy who is percieved as the UK's favourite entrepreneur who just loves having a pop at the established way of doing things in business.
Great fun.
I am now waiting for some journo to ask the other question. " Who was paying for his wife's ticket and is she his " secretary" like alot of MP's wifes or family?".
I hope for his supporters sake that JC is clean as a whistle on this one.I can imagine somebody digging around on this from the Guardian.
And I reckon that the comment from one of his staff that Virgin/Branson is part of the " establishment" is class. You mean the guy who is percieved as the UK's favourite entrepreneur who just loves having a pop at the established way of doing things in business.
Great fun.
Post edited at 09:34
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In reply to balmybaldwin:
You were how old when the Railways were privatised?
However I agree that nobody should want the old model of a nationalised rail network but then again do we want the current system of train operators trousering massive amounts of public money via subsidies?
A nice ideal but would people actually use it? (I've lived in villages virtually all my life).
> National Rail was bloody awful trains late if at all, it lacked investment, was hogtied by unions and run by committee why on earth would we want it back?
You were how old when the Railways were privatised?
However I agree that nobody should want the old model of a nationalised rail network but then again do we want the current system of train operators trousering massive amounts of public money via subsidies?
> What we need back is a nationalised bus service that services every village.
A nice ideal but would people actually use it? (I've lived in villages virtually all my life).
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In reply to neilh:
This serves Corbyn right as it looks like a backfired stunt and he seems so up himself that going into 1st class to get some work done is below his 'principles'. However I tend to believe him... there were others collaborating his story and the 'free seats' could have been obviously occupied by folk off to the loo or the buffet car who left a coat or bag in the seat so someone didnt take it (I've experienced the same many times). The story that the free seat came later when people were moved seems likely (If Corbyn declined a first class seat and let a family be upgraded instead thats good on him and Virgin look a bit like creeps). It's also common on busy but not 'ram packed' trains to keep the corridors free with packed conditions near the doors.
I often didn't book on my return from regular London trips as I wanted to stay flexible on the train and was pissed off with the numbers of booked 'just in case' seats not used (presumably by those who consider the booking investment trivial or who are claiming it back). So I just used to sit in a likely looking booked seat just before departure and move if someone turned up late (often no one did) or if busier, in a seat booked later on the journey and move then (most of those seats did get used). I also always offer my 'leased' seat to those who look like they need it more on a busy train....part of the problem with trains is a lack of human sympathy on the part of the franchiser and way too many passengers.
This serves Corbyn right as it looks like a backfired stunt and he seems so up himself that going into 1st class to get some work done is below his 'principles'. However I tend to believe him... there were others collaborating his story and the 'free seats' could have been obviously occupied by folk off to the loo or the buffet car who left a coat or bag in the seat so someone didnt take it (I've experienced the same many times). The story that the free seat came later when people were moved seems likely (If Corbyn declined a first class seat and let a family be upgraded instead thats good on him and Virgin look a bit like creeps). It's also common on busy but not 'ram packed' trains to keep the corridors free with packed conditions near the doors.
I often didn't book on my return from regular London trips as I wanted to stay flexible on the train and was pissed off with the numbers of booked 'just in case' seats not used (presumably by those who consider the booking investment trivial or who are claiming it back). So I just used to sit in a likely looking booked seat just before departure and move if someone turned up late (often no one did) or if busier, in a seat booked later on the journey and move then (most of those seats did get used). I also always offer my 'leased' seat to those who look like they need it more on a busy train....part of the problem with trains is a lack of human sympathy on the part of the franchiser and way too many passengers.
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In reply to Hat Dude:
perhaps he was a very advanced 11 year old?
> You were how old when the Railways were privatised?
perhaps he was a very advanced 11 year old?
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In reply to RyanOsborne:
the other passenger quoted on the r4 news last night was openly one of JC support team, ie his employee.
> And the other passengers on the train seem to corroborate JC's story. Another posh boy media slur? Big Ger and Postmanpat bought it at least
the other passenger quoted on the r4 news last night was openly one of JC support team, ie his employee.
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In reply to neilh:
An interesting read on Richard Branson if you have 10 minutes...
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n06/david-runciman/the-stuntman
An interesting read on Richard Branson if you have 10 minutes...
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n06/david-runciman/the-stuntman
In reply to MG:
which would mean brand Corbyn about open, honest clean politics is all a myth, a lie. He is as dishonest as the rest of them, how many other things has he presented or said which weren't true, is this his only lie etc... ? Are those PMQ dear Jezza letters all made up just so he can make his point?
> Well Corbyn himself has now acknowledged there were available seats, so no slur.
which would mean brand Corbyn about open, honest clean politics is all a myth, a lie. He is as dishonest as the rest of them, how many other things has he presented or said which weren't true, is this his only lie etc... ? Are those PMQ dear Jezza letters all made up just so he can make his point?
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In reply to graeme jackson:
I just see this as more evidence that Corbyn has no interest in taking seats.
I just see this as more evidence that Corbyn has no interest in taking seats.
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In reply to summo:
Erm, not really. If this was a stunt, which is still debatable, it doesn't mean he's "as dishonest as the rest of them", but means that he's not above a political stunt. When we find out him or his wife are non-executive director for a company which stands to directly financially benefit from any of his policies, then we can talk.
Erm, not really. If this was a stunt, which is still debatable, it doesn't mean he's "as dishonest as the rest of them", but means that he's not above a political stunt. When we find out him or his wife are non-executive director for a company which stands to directly financially benefit from any of his policies, then we can talk.
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In reply to Offwidth:
What do you believe? He has now acknowledged there were indeed free seat according to the Guardian "But the Labour leader stood by his description of the train journey, saying while there had been some available seats he had not been able to sit with his wife, ..."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/23/jeremy-corbyn-virgin-trains...
> This serves Corbyn right as it looks like a backfired stunt and he seems so up himself that going into 1st class to get some work done is below his 'principles'. However I tend to believe him...
What do you believe? He has now acknowledged there were indeed free seat according to the Guardian "But the Labour leader stood by his description of the train journey, saying while there had been some available seats he had not been able to sit with his wife, ..."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/23/jeremy-corbyn-virgin-trains...
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
But it does. He stood there and lied, to try and justify his privatisation argument. It doesn't matter if you call it a political stunt, he said he had to stand and it wasn't true.
> Erm, not really. If this was a stunt, which is still debatable, it doesn't mean he's "as dishonest as the rest of them",
But it does. He stood there and lied, to try and justify his privatisation argument. It doesn't matter if you call it a political stunt, he said he had to stand and it wasn't true.
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In reply to MG:
So with a known event planned in his diary, numerous paid assistants... the person who wants to run the UK, 60million+ people etc... can't book a train ticket ahead of his journey for his group. He is hardly selling himself as competent, all he has to do is employ competent staff, or tell the incompetent people what to do, he is incapable of either.
EDIT, besides he was trying to depict himself as working sitting on the floor, now he wants to sit with his wife etc.. he is trying to change the story.
> What do you believe? He has now acknowledged there were indeed free seat according to the Guardian "But the Labour leader stood by his description of the train journey, saying while there had been some available seats he had not been able to sit with his wife, ..."
So with a known event planned in his diary, numerous paid assistants... the person who wants to run the UK, 60million+ people etc... can't book a train ticket ahead of his journey for his group. He is hardly selling himself as competent, all he has to do is employ competent staff, or tell the incompetent people what to do, he is incapable of either.
EDIT, besides he was trying to depict himself as working sitting on the floor, now he wants to sit with his wife etc.. he is trying to change the story.
Post edited at 10:31
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In reply to MG:
That seat maybe became available later. Corbyn pulled a stunt which backfired but Virgin misled the media to defend themselves: non ticked seats where the person had to get up for some reason often have a bag or coat on them or someone will else sit down (you won't see this on the film) . As I have already said in my experience returning from London on Virgin trains at busy times just pre rush hour, most 'empty' non- ticketed seats were held in this way so I most commonly ended up in a ticketed seat that was booked but not used.
I also can't see his motivation for such a barefaced lie, given the numbers who despise him and a very public situation this would have very severe political risk. I can see the motivation for enemies of his to say what they have.
That seat maybe became available later. Corbyn pulled a stunt which backfired but Virgin misled the media to defend themselves: non ticked seats where the person had to get up for some reason often have a bag or coat on them or someone will else sit down (you won't see this on the film) . As I have already said in my experience returning from London on Virgin trains at busy times just pre rush hour, most 'empty' non- ticketed seats were held in this way so I most commonly ended up in a ticketed seat that was booked but not used.
I also can't see his motivation for such a barefaced lie, given the numbers who despise him and a very public situation this would have very severe political risk. I can see the motivation for enemies of his to say what they have.
2
1
In reply to summo:
If you think that's as bad as the example that I gave then may I suggest a recalibration of you dishonesty-ometer.
If you think that's as bad as the example that I gave then may I suggest a recalibration of you dishonesty-ometer.
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
is there now a scale where JC thinks not telling the truth is ok, provided the lie isn't too big? I didn't think that was his previous mantra. You either tell the truth or you don't. Walking down the train, staging a picture, taking a video, posting it online, talking it up at a hustings... is a little more a 5 sec white lie, yes I've read(when you haven't) your email I'll reply tomorrow?
> If you think that's as bad as the example that I gave then may I suggest a recalibration of you dishonesty-ometer.
is there now a scale where JC thinks not telling the truth is ok, provided the lie isn't too big? I didn't think that was his previous mantra. You either tell the truth or you don't. Walking down the train, staging a picture, taking a video, posting it online, talking it up at a hustings... is a little more a 5 sec white lie, yes I've read(when you haven't) your email I'll reply tomorrow?
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In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:
I have not read, but fyi I have never been happy about the way Branson manages his tax affairs- too many offshore companys for my liking.Nevertheless he is considered an outsanding entrepreneur and his Virgin rail services are generally good.Just look at the outcry when he lost the West Coast franchise. Quite rightly he got it back.Branson is in this instance not the politician and is rightly defending his companys view - good on him.
I have not read, but fyi I have never been happy about the way Branson manages his tax affairs- too many offshore companys for my liking.Nevertheless he is considered an outsanding entrepreneur and his Virgin rail services are generally good.Just look at the outcry when he lost the West Coast franchise. Quite rightly he got it back.Branson is in this instance not the politician and is rightly defending his companys view - good on him.
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In reply to summo:
Can you show where I've suggested that please?
> is there now a scale where JC thinks not telling the truth is ok, provided the lie isn't too big?
Can you show where I've suggested that please?
1
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
So what happens if we find out his wife is a paid employee of the Corbyn team... or is that different form all the other MP's who have paid family members.
Just interested-- as I said before I am hoping he is clean on this issue for the sake of his supporters.
So what happens if we find out his wife is a paid employee of the Corbyn team... or is that different form all the other MP's who have paid family members.
Just interested-- as I said before I am hoping he is clean on this issue for the sake of his supporters.
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In reply to Offwidth:
Well that's not what he is now saying, is it?
> That seat maybe became available later.
Well that's not what he is now saying, is it?
1
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In reply to neilh:
It's worth reading just to get a different perspective on brand Virgin (that is not controlled by Richard Branson). There is an interesting account on the West Coast franchise fight as well.
It's worth reading just to get a different perspective on brand Virgin (that is not controlled by Richard Branson). There is an interesting account on the West Coast franchise fight as well.
Post edited at 11:10
1
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
you seemed to suggest that because it was political stunt, then being dishonest is acceptable or some how less dishonest? Have I misunderstood your post at 1021?
> Can you show where I've suggested that please?
you seemed to suggest that because it was political stunt, then being dishonest is acceptable or some how less dishonest? Have I misunderstood your post at 1021?
1
In reply to summo:
You said this showed he was "as dishonest as the rest of them". I begged to differ, because there are many things worse than manufacturing a situation to make a legitimate political point. Many many things. Do you disagree with that?
You said this showed he was "as dishonest as the rest of them". I begged to differ, because there are many things worse than manufacturing a situation to make a legitimate political point. Many many things. Do you disagree with that?
1
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In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:
Will read it, I expect it was a real fight for him to keep the franchise with all sorts of spin especially on his part.
It is what he is good at.
Will read it, I expect it was a real fight for him to keep the franchise with all sorts of spin especially on his part.
It is what he is good at.
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:
Thanks - confirms a lot of things I've thought about Branson. I was in and around Northern Rock when he "bought" it (none of his own money, of course, same with the trains).
> An interesting read on Richard Branson if you have 10 minutes...
Thanks - confirms a lot of things I've thought about Branson. I was in and around Northern Rock when he "bought" it (none of his own money, of course, same with the trains).
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In reply to neilh:
>Nevertheless he is considered an outsanding entrepreneur and his Virgin rail services are generally good.Just look at the outcry when he lost the West Coast franchise. Quite rightly he got it back.Branson is in this instance not the politician and is rightly defending his companys view - good on him.
Interesting reading here, particularly as it's from the Daily Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/9591329/No-w...
>Nevertheless he is considered an outsanding entrepreneur and his Virgin rail services are generally good.Just look at the outcry when he lost the West Coast franchise. Quite rightly he got it back.Branson is in this instance not the politician and is rightly defending his companys view - good on him.
Interesting reading here, particularly as it's from the Daily Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/9591329/No-w...
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In reply to neilh:
If one is sitting in a pre-booked seat, relaxing into a good book with a hot cup of coffee, looking forward to a pleasant train journey, happy that one has a reserved seat in a fairly busy train; and the one sees an elderly gent, struggling for a seat - is there a moral obligation to give up ones seat for him?
And if not for him - for some other person? Or is the whole point about reserving a seat (for free, with one click) on a route you know will be busy, that reserving a seat means you get to sit down?
Tangent I know....
If one is sitting in a pre-booked seat, relaxing into a good book with a hot cup of coffee, looking forward to a pleasant train journey, happy that one has a reserved seat in a fairly busy train; and the one sees an elderly gent, struggling for a seat - is there a moral obligation to give up ones seat for him?
And if not for him - for some other person? Or is the whole point about reserving a seat (for free, with one click) on a route you know will be busy, that reserving a seat means you get to sit down?
Tangent I know....
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In reply to off-duty:
Elderly bearded man finally gets seat on train!
http://www.rytonpoolsrailway.co.uk/
Elderly bearded man finally gets seat on train!
http://www.rytonpoolsrailway.co.uk/
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In reply to off-duty:
Well you've hit upon what makes a society - a combination of rules and conventions. The seat booking is part of the rules, the moral question is part of the conventions. How do you balance both and which has the priority? One can be enforced and the other cannot.
> If one is sitting in a pre-booked seat, relaxing into a good book with a hot cup of coffee, looking forward to a pleasant train journey, happy that one has a reserved seat in a fairly busy train; and the one sees an elderly gent, struggling for a seat - is there a moral obligation to give up ones seat for him?
Well you've hit upon what makes a society - a combination of rules and conventions. The seat booking is part of the rules, the moral question is part of the conventions. How do you balance both and which has the priority? One can be enforced and the other cannot.
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In reply to andy:
On of the well recognised traits of an entrepreneur is to use other people's money and to make money from that.The brand Virgin is Branson's vehicle to do this, after years of building up his personal brand.Its classic and very hard to do well and make serious money. He does this.
It is well known that Northern Rock was just another Virgin licensing arrangement.
Whatever you think it is clever.....
On of the well recognised traits of an entrepreneur is to use other people's money and to make money from that.The brand Virgin is Branson's vehicle to do this, after years of building up his personal brand.Its classic and very hard to do well and make serious money. He does this.
It is well known that Northern Rock was just another Virgin licensing arrangement.
Whatever you think it is clever.....
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In reply to off-duty:
If someone looks like they might be struggling to stand for long times I will offer my seat to them. Bookings or good books wouldn't enter my mind but I might finish some of my coffee so its less likely to spill.
If someone looks like they might be struggling to stand for long times I will offer my seat to them. Bookings or good books wouldn't enter my mind but I might finish some of my coffee so its less likely to spill.
Post edited at 13:01
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In reply to MG:
Its unclear to me... he would obviously be initially looking for a group or at least a pair of seats being with his wife and aides but its perfectly plausible in looking for these if an odd single seat was there it would soon have filled behind him. If many seats were available the train wouldn't have needed to upgrade anyone would they. I fully know the nature of Milne and can't stand the man and know how his spin is very real and often nasty, so I'm not speaking as a sympathiser. Ive given my view on the potential problems of the Virgin footage (non ticketed seats are often booked by a coat or something when you reach them at such busy times) . Now the Information Commisioner seems to be getting involved with release of private data...presumably this won't go anywhere... If Corbyn uses the Virgin train as a political footbal on a specific point they are surely allowed to publish this footage??
The guardian has a live blogger on a train to talk to regulars:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/aug/24/behind-traingate-we-re...
Its unclear to me... he would obviously be initially looking for a group or at least a pair of seats being with his wife and aides but its perfectly plausible in looking for these if an odd single seat was there it would soon have filled behind him. If many seats were available the train wouldn't have needed to upgrade anyone would they. I fully know the nature of Milne and can't stand the man and know how his spin is very real and often nasty, so I'm not speaking as a sympathiser. Ive given my view on the potential problems of the Virgin footage (non ticketed seats are often booked by a coat or something when you reach them at such busy times) . Now the Information Commisioner seems to be getting involved with release of private data...presumably this won't go anywhere... If Corbyn uses the Virgin train as a political footbal on a specific point they are surely allowed to publish this footage??
The guardian has a live blogger on a train to talk to regulars:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/aug/24/behind-traingate-we-re...
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In reply to neilh:
Very amusing.
although, how are we pundits to know it was actually the same train journey?
Anyhow, he shouldn't have chosen a Virgin train for this stunt, IMO Virgin run one of the best services in the country, he should have got onto a Northern or TPE train for the full effect.
Very amusing.
although, how are we pundits to know it was actually the same train journey?
Anyhow, he shouldn't have chosen a Virgin train for this stunt, IMO Virgin run one of the best services in the country, he should have got onto a Northern or TPE train for the full effect.
1
In reply to Jimbo C:
Corbyn has officially told Branson that the railways will be taken back into public ownership when he becomes PM.
That must have Branson quaking in his boots.
Corbyn has officially told Branson that the railways will be taken back into public ownership when he becomes PM.
That must have Branson quaking in his boots.
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In reply to neilh:
Here's what was reported at the time:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/16/jeremy-corbyn-floor-three-h...
Corbyn joins seatless commuters on floor for three-hour train journey
Jeremy Corbyn, famed for standing up for his principles, sat down for them last week, along with 20 other seatless commuters on a three-hour train journey from London to Newcastle...
From his spot on the floor, which he chose rather than upgrading to first class, Corbyn turns to the camera and says: “This is a problem that many passengers face every day, commuters and long-distance travellers. Today this train is completely ram-packed."
Here's what was reported at the time:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/16/jeremy-corbyn-floor-three-h...
Corbyn joins seatless commuters on floor for three-hour train journey
Jeremy Corbyn, famed for standing up for his principles, sat down for them last week, along with 20 other seatless commuters on a three-hour train journey from London to Newcastle...
From his spot on the floor, which he chose rather than upgrading to first class, Corbyn turns to the camera and says: “This is a problem that many passengers face every day, commuters and long-distance travellers. Today this train is completely ram-packed."
1
In reply to GrantM:
Corbyn was being harried about all this earlier at a news conference this morning. He is now admitting that there were spare seats, 'but not two together'.
Another lie - you can see some free pairs of seats in the Virgin trains picture of Coach H, as he passes through.
He should stop digging.
Corbyn was being harried about all this earlier at a news conference this morning. He is now admitting that there were spare seats, 'but not two together'.
Another lie - you can see some free pairs of seats in the Virgin trains picture of Coach H, as he passes through.
He should stop digging.
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In reply to Offwidth:
Come back Alistair Campbell ..all is forgiven.......!
Now there was a proper spin doctor
Come back Alistair Campbell ..all is forgiven.......!
Now there was a proper spin doctor
2
In reply to off-duty:
I did this the other day - for a dad and his small child who were struggling to stand. I don't think there's a moral obligation, no, but I did it anyway.
> If one is sitting in a pre-booked seat, relaxing... is there a moral obligation to give up ones seat for him?
I did this the other day - for a dad and his small child who were struggling to stand. I don't think there's a moral obligation, no, but I did it anyway.
1
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
of course there is worse than that, but he stood in the Commons saying politics needs to be cleaner, more transparent and more honest etc... and he was the man to lead the way, then did the opposite, deception, deceit, etc... he has been caught and shown he is equal to the rest in saying anything to maintain or further his political career. You don't have to like it or accept it, but it's a fact.
> You said this showed he was "as dishonest as the rest of them". I begged to differ, because there are many things worse than manufacturing a situation to make a legitimate political point. Many many things. Do you disagree with that?
of course there is worse than that, but he stood in the Commons saying politics needs to be cleaner, more transparent and more honest etc... and he was the man to lead the way, then did the opposite, deception, deceit, etc... he has been caught and shown he is equal to the rest in saying anything to maintain or further his political career. You don't have to like it or accept it, but it's a fact.
1
In reply to neilh:
Campbell would have done his research and checked on line for trains already fully booked, already delayed etc... then got some innocent members of the public sitting on their bags in the back ground, to add to the scene etc...
> Come back Alistair Campbell ..all is forgiven.......!
> Now there was a proper spin doctor
> Now there was a proper spin doctor
Campbell would have done his research and checked on line for trains already fully booked, already delayed etc... then got some innocent members of the public sitting on their bags in the back ground, to add to the scene etc...
In reply to RyanOsborne:
Has Corbyn not said politics needs to be open and honest, and he's the man etc... ? http://labourlist.org/2015/10/straight-talking-honest-politics-labour-revea...
Has he not now admitted he made up facts and lied about his train journey? http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/23/jeremy-corbyn-virgin-trains...
Fact.
> Ha! What you've just written is far from a fact!
Has Corbyn not said politics needs to be open and honest, and he's the man etc... ? http://labourlist.org/2015/10/straight-talking-honest-politics-labour-revea...
Has he not now admitted he made up facts and lied about his train journey? http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/23/jeremy-corbyn-virgin-trains...
Fact.
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In reply to summo:
A proper job ....no half measures.....and probably the train staff openly talking that it was always like this.....the good old days when spin was done correctly....don't you just miss them.....
A proper job ....no half measures.....and probably the train staff openly talking that it was always like this.....the good old days when spin was done correctly....don't you just miss them.....
In reply to neilh:
It's fun to imagine a Campbell response but really this has much to do with The Thick Of It. I would have loved to see a fictional Sir Humphry response as well... any one want to give it a go?
It's fun to imagine a Campbell response but really this has much to do with The Thick Of It. I would have loved to see a fictional Sir Humphry response as well... any one want to give it a go?
1
In reply to neilh:
Northern, heavily accented train staff, to imply his working common man credentials whilst away from his constituency.
> A proper job ....no half measures.....and probably the train staff openly talking that it was always like this.....the good old days when spin was done correctly....don't you just miss them.....
Northern, heavily accented train staff, to imply his working common man credentials whilst away from his constituency.
In reply to neilh:
His excuse is either he couldn't find a seat next to his wife, so he threw a sulk and sat on the floor, or people had bags on the seats and he is too much of a wimp to ask them to move them so he could sit.
"Dear Mr Putin, I couldn't help but notice that you have tanks in countries which they shouldn't be in. I'm not going to ask you to move them, I'll just go and sit in this corner over here until something changes."
His excuse is either he couldn't find a seat next to his wife, so he threw a sulk and sat on the floor, or people had bags on the seats and he is too much of a wimp to ask them to move them so he could sit.
"Dear Mr Putin, I couldn't help but notice that you have tanks in countries which they shouldn't be in. I'm not going to ask you to move them, I'll just go and sit in this corner over here until something changes."
17
1
In reply to Big Ger:
I never thought I'd see the day when I approved of a Big Gob post.
Don't suppose you'll consider retiring while you're on top?
I never thought I'd see the day when I approved of a Big Gob post.
Don't suppose you'll consider retiring while you're on top?
5
1
In reply to neilh:
I'm not interested in Jeremy Corbyn but here's my recent experience of the rail system. On Siunday I travelled by Virgin from Crewe to Glasgow. Because of a derailment of a rail maintenance vehicle between Preston And Oxenholme our train terminated at Preston. We joined a queue for buses which we were told by Virgin staff would take us to Oxenholme to join a waiting train for the onward journey. The queue shuffled slowly forward for the next 2 hours as buses were clearly proving diffidcut to locate. Eventually we boarded a bus which we were told would take us to Carlisle - not Oxenholme . 2 hours later we arrived at Carlisle where we were put on a (full) Trans-Pennine service from Manchester to Glasgow. This train didn't even have enough FLOOR space to sit down, unlike lucky Jeremy. So we stood for the next 105 minuteds to Glasgow. Ah well suppose I'll get a refund!
Journey time from Crewe to Glasgow - 8 hours
I'm not interested in Jeremy Corbyn but here's my recent experience of the rail system. On Siunday I travelled by Virgin from Crewe to Glasgow. Because of a derailment of a rail maintenance vehicle between Preston And Oxenholme our train terminated at Preston. We joined a queue for buses which we were told by Virgin staff would take us to Oxenholme to join a waiting train for the onward journey. The queue shuffled slowly forward for the next 2 hours as buses were clearly proving diffidcut to locate. Eventually we boarded a bus which we were told would take us to Carlisle - not Oxenholme . 2 hours later we arrived at Carlisle where we were put on a (full) Trans-Pennine service from Manchester to Glasgow. This train didn't even have enough FLOOR space to sit down, unlike lucky Jeremy. So we stood for the next 105 minuteds to Glasgow. Ah well suppose I'll get a refund!
Journey time from Crewe to Glasgow - 8 hours
1
In reply to john arran:
Cheers John, but I think I'll stay and share my benevolent, intelligent, and friendly musings for a little while yet.
Cheers John, but I think I'll stay and share my benevolent, intelligent, and friendly musings for a little while yet.
2
4
In reply to The Watch of Barrisdale:
My recent experiences - last 6 months or so include:
1. A suicide on the London -Glasgow line which led to the complete shutdown of trains for 4-5 hours north of crewe. this meant instead of going from warrington, driving to crewe- where upon the whole network was in meltdown and being put on local train to Stoke ( nice station) then onto train to Euston.
2. Catching the Edinburgh / london train from Durham/ to Leeds. ( the same one JC caught) and having to sit on the floor.
3. A local commuter train on the outskirts of Tokyo to somewhere or other south and standing in the middle of nowhere for 1 hour 20ish due to overcrowding.I have yet to catch an underground in rush hour Tokyo.
Only (1) nobody could really fault the system.(3) is to illustrate overcrowding etc is not a patriularly UK issue.
Granted I do not catch the Southern trains in the UK
My recent experiences - last 6 months or so include:
1. A suicide on the London -Glasgow line which led to the complete shutdown of trains for 4-5 hours north of crewe. this meant instead of going from warrington, driving to crewe- where upon the whole network was in meltdown and being put on local train to Stoke ( nice station) then onto train to Euston.
2. Catching the Edinburgh / london train from Durham/ to Leeds. ( the same one JC caught) and having to sit on the floor.
3. A local commuter train on the outskirts of Tokyo to somewhere or other south and standing in the middle of nowhere for 1 hour 20ish due to overcrowding.I have yet to catch an underground in rush hour Tokyo.
Only (1) nobody could really fault the system.(3) is to illustrate overcrowding etc is not a patriularly UK issue.
Granted I do not catch the Southern trains in the UK
1
In reply to summo:
I was thinking about this and wondering how his team should have played this.he should have dropped the NHS media meeting yesterday and just done a media presentation on his plans for rail renatioanlisation. he should have used the situation to his advantage- castigated Branson over his tax exile status - instead of leaving it to his sidekicks.It would have turned the position round completely.So moving the story on and away from him.
I can see why his MP's are not happy..
I was thinking about this and wondering how his team should have played this.he should have dropped the NHS media meeting yesterday and just done a media presentation on his plans for rail renatioanlisation. he should have used the situation to his advantage- castigated Branson over his tax exile status - instead of leaving it to his sidekicks.It would have turned the position round completely.So moving the story on and away from him.
I can see why his MP's are not happy..
Post edited at 08:54
1
2
1
In reply to neilh:
It's beyond parody. Corbyn spokesmen were saying on Tues that there were no empty seats, then there were empty seats but he needed to sit next to his wife, then that was 'nonsense' about his wife and it didn't come from them. On Wednesday Corbyn announced that he did want to sit next to his wife, later he said he needed enough seats for the whole team. Why didn't they sort this out when the story broke?
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/24/virgin-rail-controversy-has...
"One Labour source compared the campaign’s chaotic approach to that of a “pound shop Malcolm Tucker” — referring to the foul-mouthed spin doctor in political satire The Thick of It. Another complained that the leader was impossible to reach for some time on Tuesday because he was making jam."
It's beyond parody. Corbyn spokesmen were saying on Tues that there were no empty seats, then there were empty seats but he needed to sit next to his wife, then that was 'nonsense' about his wife and it didn't come from them. On Wednesday Corbyn announced that he did want to sit next to his wife, later he said he needed enough seats for the whole team. Why didn't they sort this out when the story broke?
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/24/virgin-rail-controversy-has...
"One Labour source compared the campaign’s chaotic approach to that of a “pound shop Malcolm Tucker” — referring to the foul-mouthed spin doctor in political satire The Thick of It. Another complained that the leader was impossible to reach for some time on Tuesday because he was making jam."
1
In reply to RyanOsborne:
No, it shouldn't. So it was stupid of Jeremy to pull this failed stunt and give the media an easy story to run with.
> So this complete non story should have prevented a discussion about the NHS?
No, it shouldn't. So it was stupid of Jeremy to pull this failed stunt and give the media an easy story to run with.
3
1
In reply to neilh:
Not a good move, Corbyn's tax ideas are likely to cause more tax exiles.
Ditto.,
> castigated Branson over his tax exile status -
Not a good move, Corbyn's tax ideas are likely to cause more tax exiles.
> I can see why his MP's are not happy..
Ditto.,
1
In reply to neilh:
Corbyn and his team lied through their teeth about the train being ram packed to push his agenda of renationalisation. Far from presenting a new kind of politics he's been exposed as presenting a new kind of spin. Many are falling for his spin. This is far from a non story, it's exposing the real Corbyn, the wool is being pulled back from people's eyes.
Corbyn and his team lied through their teeth about the train being ram packed to push his agenda of renationalisation. Far from presenting a new kind of politics he's been exposed as presenting a new kind of spin. Many are falling for his spin. This is far from a non story, it's exposing the real Corbyn, the wool is being pulled back from people's eyes.
7
1
In reply to RyanOsborne:
That is called media management which is part of his responsibilty, especially when this became the main story.
the NHS stuff unfortunately was not the main story.it could have easily been moved a day or so.
That is called media management which is part of his responsibilty, especially when this became the main story.
the NHS stuff unfortunately was not the main story.it could have easily been moved a day or so.
2
In reply to neilh:
The next time he is due to speak at a conference, will the chair say: "The floor is yours Mr Corbyn"?
The next time he is due to speak at a conference, will the chair say: "The floor is yours Mr Corbyn"?
7
In reply to neilh:
he spent his NHS meeting, trying to refuse to answer rail questions, with even the reporter questioning 'it's a free world we can ask what we wish' etc...
the problem is neither him or his advisor actually know how to communicate with the majority of voters. His followers, a relatively small part of electorate will think it's all some conspiracy against him, 99% of voters will just think what an incompetent muppet.
R4 pointed out, Branson - king of marketing, using this story to take the headline news off British Airways who flew the gold medalists home and defend his own rail company at the same time. Regardless of his alleged tax position, he and his team have probably forgotten more than Corbyn's will ever know.
> I was thinking about this and wondering how his team should have played this.he should have dropped the NHS media meeting yesterday and just done a media presentation on his plans for rail renatioanlisation. he should have used the situation to his advantage- castigated Branson over his tax exile status - instead of leaving it to his sidekicks.It would have turned the position round completely.So moving the story on and away from him.
> I can see why his MP's are not happy..
> I can see why his MP's are not happy..
he spent his NHS meeting, trying to refuse to answer rail questions, with even the reporter questioning 'it's a free world we can ask what we wish' etc...
the problem is neither him or his advisor actually know how to communicate with the majority of voters. His followers, a relatively small part of electorate will think it's all some conspiracy against him, 99% of voters will just think what an incompetent muppet.
R4 pointed out, Branson - king of marketing, using this story to take the headline news off British Airways who flew the gold medalists home and defend his own rail company at the same time. Regardless of his alleged tax position, he and his team have probably forgotten more than Corbyn's will ever know.
Post edited at 09:59
5
3
In reply to summo:
99% ?? Are you really such a complete idiot? There is a huge minority support for Corbyn and probably he will win the leadership election in the biggest membership political party in the UK. His critics say this is just not enough to win in national elections.
99% ?? Are you really such a complete idiot? There is a huge minority support for Corbyn and probably he will win the leadership election in the biggest membership political party in the UK. His critics say this is just not enough to win in national elections.
4
3
In reply to Offwidth:
99% ?? Are you really such a complete idiot?
Do you think Corbyn has handled the whole train incident in a competent manner then?
99% ?? Are you really such a complete idiot?
Do you think Corbyn has handled the whole train incident in a competent manner then?
2
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In reply to neilh:
Mrs Num Num says she relishes the re-nationalisation of the railways. She needs two empty seats together to be able to sit down on her own
Mrs Num Num says she relishes the re-nationalisation of the railways. She needs two empty seats together to be able to sit down on her own
In reply to Offwidth:
Winning the leadership election within labour party members, isn't the same as winning a general election. You'll notice I said '99% of the electorate', ie 30+million people. Not the less than 1m labour party members. The labour party is about a thirtieth of the size of the electorate, I see the chances of a person who can't even reserve a train seat being the next PM as just above zero. Two hopes and ones Bob etc...
The guy can't even stick to the same story, it keeps changing every time the press corner him, a sure sign of a liar.
> 99% ?? Are you really such a complete idiot? There is a huge minority support for Corbyn and probably he will win the leadership election in the biggest membership political party in the UK. His critics say this is just not enough to win in national elections.
Winning the leadership election within labour party members, isn't the same as winning a general election. You'll notice I said '99% of the electorate', ie 30+million people. Not the less than 1m labour party members. The labour party is about a thirtieth of the size of the electorate, I see the chances of a person who can't even reserve a train seat being the next PM as just above zero. Two hopes and ones Bob etc...
The guy can't even stick to the same story, it keeps changing every time the press corner him, a sure sign of a liar.
Post edited at 10:53
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In reply to FactorXXX:
Of course not but he's no worse than the average politician dealing with difficult news and despite being very different from my political position I think he is more honest than most party leaders. It makes me wonder why people who dislike him need to use ridiculous hyperbole if they think he is so useless... why not just laugh? Politics seems to me to be getting worse... less informed and more rhetoric, sometimes so outragous irony is too small a word.... over the ocean Trump is implying Clinton isn't up to the mental strain of President in a speech where he gets the day wrong.
Of course not but he's no worse than the average politician dealing with difficult news and despite being very different from my political position I think he is more honest than most party leaders. It makes me wonder why people who dislike him need to use ridiculous hyperbole if they think he is so useless... why not just laugh? Politics seems to me to be getting worse... less informed and more rhetoric, sometimes so outragous irony is too small a word.... over the ocean Trump is implying Clinton isn't up to the mental strain of President in a speech where he gets the day wrong.
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In reply to Offwidth:
Of course not but he's no worse than the average politician dealing with difficult news and despite being very different from my political position I think he is more honest than most party leaders.
Go back and read your reply to Summo. Then read the context of Summo's post and the question I asked becomes clear...
It makes me wonder why people who dislike him need to use ridiculous hyperbole if they think he is so useless... why not just laugh?
Because being the Prime Minister isn't a laughing matter?
In all seriousness, do you really think that he has got the 'wits about him' to be a PM?
Of course not but he's no worse than the average politician dealing with difficult news and despite being very different from my political position I think he is more honest than most party leaders.
Go back and read your reply to Summo. Then read the context of Summo's post and the question I asked becomes clear...
It makes me wonder why people who dislike him need to use ridiculous hyperbole if they think he is so useless... why not just laugh?
Because being the Prime Minister isn't a laughing matter?
In all seriousness, do you really think that he has got the 'wits about him' to be a PM?
In reply to Offwidth:
if it was any other politician people would have just laughed and said no change there. But, the very politician whose whole basis for his stance is a new clean honest politics has turned out to be lying like the rest of them. That is the news, not the incident itself. In a sense the incident is meaningless, but what it's revealed should be important to every labour party member who thought Corbyn was the new messiah.
> Of course not but he's no worse than the average politician dealing with difficult news..... why not just laugh?
if it was any other politician people would have just laughed and said no change there. But, the very politician whose whole basis for his stance is a new clean honest politics has turned out to be lying like the rest of them. That is the news, not the incident itself. In a sense the incident is meaningless, but what it's revealed should be important to every labour party member who thought Corbyn was the new messiah.
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In reply to Lion Bakes:
What I can't understand is why he thinks nationalisation is a recipe for free seats, unless he means the nationalised service is so shit that noone will want to use it.
> Corbyn and his team lied through their teeth about the train being ram packed to push his agenda of renationalisation.
What I can't understand is why he thinks nationalisation is a recipe for free seats, unless he means the nationalised service is so shit that noone will want to use it.
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In reply to summo:
It's a pretty pathetic example, in comparison to some of the stuff other politicians lie out of their arses about. Brexit for example.
It's a pretty pathetic example, in comparison to some of the stuff other politicians lie out of their arses about. Brexit for example.
In reply to RyanOsborne:
Like those who were against EU membership their whole lives before unconvincingly arguing for it, for example.
Like those who were against EU membership their whole lives before unconvincingly arguing for it, for example.
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In reply to MG:
Or those who said they would happily take us out of the EU if they didn't agree with our renegotiations, and then said that world war three would happen if we left. Or those who said the NHS would receive £350million a week if we left, and have since denied all knowledge.
Politicians lie, it's a fact of life, but JC seems more credible and honest than any other I've seen.
Or those who said they would happily take us out of the EU if they didn't agree with our renegotiations, and then said that world war three would happen if we left. Or those who said the NHS would receive £350million a week if we left, and have since denied all knowledge.
Politicians lie, it's a fact of life, but JC seems more credible and honest than any other I've seen.
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In reply to summo:
Well put.
Every morning it seems he has the opportunity to plan a quick comment or soundbite as he leaves home and gets on his bike.
Instead of using that opportunity to gain votes he sarcastically thanks or complains about the press presence.
> the problem is neither him or his advisor actually know how to communicate with the majority of voters. His followers, a relatively small part of electorate will think it's all some conspiracy against him, 99% of voters will just think what an incompetent muppet.
Well put.
Every morning it seems he has the opportunity to plan a quick comment or soundbite as he leaves home and gets on his bike.
Instead of using that opportunity to gain votes he sarcastically thanks or complains about the press presence.
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In reply to FactorXXX and Summo:
I genuinely believe anyone who thinks this incident has much bearing on his capabilities as a leader is clutching at straws. There is plenty of political 'meat' to deal with when assessing his capabilities as a party leader, and yes, the fact he might be PM one day (unlikely but possible) is serious.... it's this incident that isn't serious and attaching hyperbole like "99%" is plain ridiculous. As for my views on Corbyn I'm probably what is classed as a social liberal, so its not so important (even if like many I'd prefer a stronger opposition; so far he has been much better in his speeches than I would have expected and worse in the control of the non-Blairite PLP and in his reliance on a hard left inner circle)... the views that matter are labour members voting in the leadership contest.
I genuinely believe anyone who thinks this incident has much bearing on his capabilities as a leader is clutching at straws. There is plenty of political 'meat' to deal with when assessing his capabilities as a party leader, and yes, the fact he might be PM one day (unlikely but possible) is serious.... it's this incident that isn't serious and attaching hyperbole like "99%" is plain ridiculous. As for my views on Corbyn I'm probably what is classed as a social liberal, so its not so important (even if like many I'd prefer a stronger opposition; so far he has been much better in his speeches than I would have expected and worse in the control of the non-Blairite PLP and in his reliance on a hard left inner circle)... the views that matter are labour members voting in the leadership contest.
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In reply to elsewhere:
Oh god not another one... you do realise that the membership of Momentum and the membership of the Conservative party are pretty similar? He has clear support from a huge number of people and those who hate him most get their information from the Fail, Excess and Scum.
The issue with FPTP elections is he has to convince swing voters in marginals so even with 35% national support I doubt he can win.
Oh god not another one... you do realise that the membership of Momentum and the membership of the Conservative party are pretty similar? He has clear support from a huge number of people and those who hate him most get their information from the Fail, Excess and Scum.
The issue with FPTP elections is he has to convince swing voters in marginals so even with 35% national support I doubt he can win.
Post edited at 12:07
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In reply to Offwidth:
His continued failure to engage with or appeal to those swing voters is why I hate Corbyn.
> The issue with FPTP elections is he has to convince swing voters in marginals so even with 35% national support I doubt he can win.
His continued failure to engage with or appeal to those swing voters is why I hate Corbyn.
In reply to Offwidth:
Never mind 35% of national support, getting the support of 35% of his own MPs would be a start.
Never mind 35% of national support, getting the support of 35% of his own MPs would be a start.
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In reply to RyanOsborne:
exactly, only a complete buffoon would think to try to trick the public with CCTV cameras observing him, which belonged to the very company he was about target.
> It's a pretty pathetic example,
exactly, only a complete buffoon would think to try to trick the public with CCTV cameras observing him, which belonged to the very company he was about target.
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In reply to GrantM:
I suspect it would sadden Armando Ianucci that his creation, rather than being taken as an exaggerated satire of everything that is wrong with British politics, is now perceived as something to aspire to.
> "One Labour source compared the campaign’s chaotic approach to that of a “pound shop Malcolm Tucker” — referring to the foul-mouthed spin doctor in political satire The Thick of It.
I suspect it would sadden Armando Ianucci that his creation, rather than being taken as an exaggerated satire of everything that is wrong with British politics, is now perceived as something to aspire to.
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In reply to Offwidth:
The views of labour members voting in the leadership contest are largely irrelevant to most people. They are welcome to navel gaze to their hearts' content whilst simultaneously presiding over the self destruction of the left for some elections to come.
The views of labour members voting in the leadership contest are largely irrelevant to most people. They are welcome to navel gaze to their hearts' content whilst simultaneously presiding over the self destruction of the left for some elections to come.
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In reply to Siward:
Just the opposite... with no strong opposition the conservatives will do more stupid stuff that damages the prospects of swing voters.
Just the opposite... with no strong opposition the conservatives will do more stupid stuff that damages the prospects of swing voters.
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In reply to Offwidth:
I'm speechless (almost). You're saying a weak opposition is now an electoral asset or good strategy for the opposition.
> Just the opposite... with no strong opposition the conservatives will do more stupid stuff that damages the prospects of swing voters.
I'm speechless (almost). You're saying a weak opposition is now an electoral asset or good strategy for the opposition.
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In reply to neilh:
Apparently Virgin have now been reported for possible data protection breaches following release of images. Why would I not be surprised to hear who has made a complaint about possible breaches?
Apparently Virgin have now been reported for possible data protection breaches following release of images. Why would I not be surprised to hear who has made a complaint about possible breaches?
In reply to FesteringSore:
A passenger who's had their data privacy infringed for the sake of political point-scoring?
A passenger who's had their data privacy infringed for the sake of political point-scoring?
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In reply to elsewhere:
Again, just the opposite... I disagreed with Siward as people need to care more about what happens in Labour (in my view the Labour strategy under JC is poor in terms of improving likely electability... even if he has done well in motivating many on the left).
Again, just the opposite... I disagreed with Siward as people need to care more about what happens in Labour (in my view the Labour strategy under JC is poor in terms of improving likely electability... even if he has done well in motivating many on the left).
In reply to FesteringSore:
I raised this a good few posts above (and still don't see how it can go anywhere...presumably they have to investigate if a complaint is made).
I raised this a good few posts above (and still don't see how it can go anywhere...presumably they have to investigate if a complaint is made).
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
A passenger who's had their data privacy infringed for the sake of political point-scoring?
Political point scoring or telling the facts?
A passenger who's had their data privacy infringed for the sake of political point-scoring?
Political point scoring or telling the facts?
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
Its a minor technical point and in the context of the story has no real " legs"... if you are in the public arena and you get caught out....then you have yourself to blame. Put it this way he could easily have gone on crowded trains elesewhere to make the same point.
I am sure Virgin will have worked the cost of this infingement out, which may/may not be a fine.
I am also not sure what the position is if you say publicly one thing and then survelliance cameras prove exactly the opposite. I would have though there would have been a legitimate defence in the rules.
Its also intersting to see that Virgin have milked the publicity again today as JC caught a Virgin train to Glasgow.Branson and his PR machine must be laughing.3 days in the news compared with BA's 1 day on Monday.10/10.Result.
Its a minor technical point and in the context of the story has no real " legs"... if you are in the public arena and you get caught out....then you have yourself to blame. Put it this way he could easily have gone on crowded trains elesewhere to make the same point.
I am sure Virgin will have worked the cost of this infingement out, which may/may not be a fine.
I am also not sure what the position is if you say publicly one thing and then survelliance cameras prove exactly the opposite. I would have though there would have been a legitimate defence in the rules.
Its also intersting to see that Virgin have milked the publicity again today as JC caught a Virgin train to Glasgow.Branson and his PR machine must be laughing.3 days in the news compared with BA's 1 day on Monday.10/10.Result.
Post edited at 15:32
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
So not arguing over the data infringement bit?
It's yet to be decided if Virgin have contravened the Data Protection Act.
By showing the footage, it's definitely decided that Corbyn made a mess of trying to accuse Virgin of overcrowding on their trains.
If Virgin hadn't shown the footage, then people would still think Corbyn's version of events was true.
On balance, Virgin, even if found guilty, has made the right decision.
So not arguing over the data infringement bit?
It's yet to be decided if Virgin have contravened the Data Protection Act.
By showing the footage, it's definitely decided that Corbyn made a mess of trying to accuse Virgin of overcrowding on their trains.
If Virgin hadn't shown the footage, then people would still think Corbyn's version of events was true.
On balance, Virgin, even if found guilty, has made the right decision.
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
Corbyn recorded a video on the train and got it on newspaper front pages, he can't really complain when Virgin do the same. He voluntarily made his journey public, and and turned it into a political event. It's actually in the public interest that the full facts come out.
> A passenger who's had their data privacy infringed for the sake of political point-scoring?
Corbyn recorded a video on the train and got it on newspaper front pages, he can't really complain when Virgin do the same. He voluntarily made his journey public, and and turned it into a political event. It's actually in the public interest that the full facts come out.
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In reply to FactorXXX:
Yes what happens when train, tram and bus companies show CCTV footage of fights and the like on trains. Be nice if the complaint is thrown out as well.
Yes what happens when train, tram and bus companies show CCTV footage of fights and the like on trains. Be nice if the complaint is thrown out as well.
In reply to GrantM:
I don't even support Corbyn, but I think the world has gone crazy where "politician manufactures image to make genuine political point" is a three-day story. If it wasn't Corbyn it would have sunk after a moment's amusement. I'm sure it being silly season has helped.
I don't even support Corbyn, but I think the world has gone crazy where "politician manufactures image to make genuine political point" is a three-day story. If it wasn't Corbyn it would have sunk after a moment's amusement. I'm sure it being silly season has helped.
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
I don't even support Corbyn, but I think the world has gone crazy where "politician manufactures image to make genuine political point" is a three-day story. If it wasn't Corbyn it would have sunk after a moment's amusement.
That's the problem when you put yourself on a pedestal...
I don't even support Corbyn, but I think the world has gone crazy where "politician manufactures image to make genuine political point" is a three-day story. If it wasn't Corbyn it would have sunk after a moment's amusement.
That's the problem when you put yourself on a pedestal...
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In reply to neilh:
Re: Overcrowding
It's so bad, Branson couldn't even find a house to live in permanently in the UK. It seems that the country is so full of people living in them and paying their taxes that he has to sit in the British Virgin Islands with all 'his' money .
British taxpayers even gave him some of their money but it was to no avail, He has to endure his awful plight.
With him being a philanthropist and all, we can only imagine his anguish.....
Re: Overcrowding
It's so bad, Branson couldn't even find a house to live in permanently in the UK. It seems that the country is so full of people living in them and paying their taxes that he has to sit in the British Virgin Islands with all 'his' money .
British taxpayers even gave him some of their money but it was to no avail, He has to endure his awful plight.
With him being a philanthropist and all, we can only imagine his anguish.....
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In reply to Geronimus:
Thanks for coming. Crisps and dips are on the right, toilet's out that door and to the left, and there's beer in the fridge.
Thanks for coming. Crisps and dips are on the right, toilet's out that door and to the left, and there's beer in the fridge.
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In reply to FactorXXX:
Huh. I pretty much recall that problem from day one that Corbyn looked a serious candidate for leader, the first time around, so no pedestal required as far as I can see. It's a shame I think he's rubbish, as otherwise I'd love to vote for him, because the press and political establishment have embarrassed themselves with how they've treated his leadership.
Huh. I pretty much recall that problem from day one that Corbyn looked a serious candidate for leader, the first time around, so no pedestal required as far as I can see. It's a shame I think he's rubbish, as otherwise I'd love to vote for him, because the press and political establishment have embarrassed themselves with how they've treated his leadership.
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In reply to Geronimus:
Fortunately everything's nice and peachy under the Tories, we can trust them to govern competently with everyone's best interests at heart
> Labour is a party of tossers and most UKCers seem to support labour, so...
Fortunately everything's nice and peachy under the Tories, we can trust them to govern competently with everyone's best interests at heart
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
And possibly all the leaks about just how well the Tories are treating the NHS...
Just when we need a strong opposition
> I don't even support Corbyn, but I think the world has gone crazy where "politician manufactures image to make genuine political point" is a three-day story. If it wasn't Corbyn it would have sunk after a moment's amusement. I'm sure it being silly season has helped.
And possibly all the leaks about just how well the Tories are treating the NHS...
Just when we need a strong opposition
In reply to neilh:
And now Virgin is offering discount on train tickets to the Labour annual conference today. So more pubility
So what Branson actually did was wait until BA were headline news on the Olympic flight, then basically release the story on Monday ( they had the cctv footage for some time which we tend to forget). After all they could have done this last week before the Olympic flight back.
This knocked BA off and Virgin had the PR until yesterday when JC caught the train back up.
Now its been extened by anothe rday
I have to say - Branson is awesome at this.You have to step and appreciate how branson has played the media and social media.
And now Virgin is offering discount on train tickets to the Labour annual conference today. So more pubility
So what Branson actually did was wait until BA were headline news on the Olympic flight, then basically release the story on Monday ( they had the cctv footage for some time which we tend to forget). After all they could have done this last week before the Olympic flight back.
This knocked BA off and Virgin had the PR until yesterday when JC caught the train back up.
Now its been extened by anothe rday
I have to say - Branson is awesome at this.You have to step and appreciate how branson has played the media and social media.
In reply to neilh:
Corbyn has become a figure of fun. The probability of him becoming PM has started to be used as a figure of speech for something vanishingly unlikely, as in 'the probability of 'x' is as likely as Corbyn becoming PM.'
I think it will be very hard to recover from that position, his supporters may think they are supporting 'as a matter of principle' but if that principle results in an unopposed Tory government and even larger landslide at the next election I'd rather they weren't quite so precious.
Corbyn has become a figure of fun. The probability of him becoming PM has started to be used as a figure of speech for something vanishingly unlikely, as in 'the probability of 'x' is as likely as Corbyn becoming PM.'
I think it will be very hard to recover from that position, his supporters may think they are supporting 'as a matter of principle' but if that principle results in an unopposed Tory government and even larger landslide at the next election I'd rather they weren't quite so precious.
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