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http://www.bodyforwife.com/she-doesnt-owe-you-shit/
A facebook friend shared this, and I found it very eye opening, and a little depressing.
http://www.bodyforwife.com/feminism-and-the-men-who-refuse-to-understand/
This is a follow up to it....
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In reply to Timmd:
I clicked on this hoping to read an intriguing tale of agricultural betrayal, loss and ovine heartbreak. Very disappointed, back to Farmer's Weekly for me.
I clicked on this hoping to read an intriguing tale of agricultural betrayal, loss and ovine heartbreak. Very disappointed, back to Farmer's Weekly for me.
Post edited at 09:01
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In reply to Neil:
You can't swear in topic titles, or mildly swear, so I went for sheep.
> I clicked on this hoping to read an intriguing tale of agricultural betrayal, loss and ovine heartbreak. Very disappointed, back to Farmer's Weekly for me.
You can't swear in topic titles, or mildly swear, so I went for sheep.
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In reply to Morriss:
Since it's not tarring all men with the same brush, that's an interesting response.
> Bilge.
Since it's not tarring all men with the same brush, that's an interesting response.
Post edited at 09:46
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In reply to Timmd:
Depressing indeed. It's a powerful piece that everyone should read as I can guarantee that everyone will have experienced this kind of thing in some form, either making a comment themselves without thinking, or witnessing it in the pub/on the street. And often, they (myself included) won't have realised the damage it can cause as it's become such a common thing.
It's sad to think that things like this occur every day and that even when victims accounts are given, many people still pass it off as "banter" rather than what it actually is - Sexual Assault.
Depressing indeed. It's a powerful piece that everyone should read as I can guarantee that everyone will have experienced this kind of thing in some form, either making a comment themselves without thinking, or witnessing it in the pub/on the street. And often, they (myself included) won't have realised the damage it can cause as it's become such a common thing.
It's sad to think that things like this occur every day and that even when victims accounts are given, many people still pass it off as "banter" rather than what it actually is - Sexual Assault.
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In reply to James Malloch:
Or "bilge", apparently. No doubt a certain regular poster will be along soon to disparage the link and give his own usual charming take on anything that doesn't fit into his own bailiwick.
> It's sad to think that things like this occur every day and that even when victims accounts are given, many people still pass it off as "banter" rather than what it actually is - Sexual Assault.
Or "bilge", apparently. No doubt a certain regular poster will be along soon to disparage the link and give his own usual charming take on anything that doesn't fit into his own bailiwick.
Post edited at 13:40
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In reply to marsbar:
The ratio of likes to dislikes on this thread is pretty depressing. In particular, the number of likes that comment has received.
The ratio of likes to dislikes on this thread is pretty depressing. In particular, the number of likes that comment has received.
Post edited at 13:42
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In reply to Timmd:
The problem to me with the initial article, is how many of the anecdotes are actually true?
Even if they are true, they are so extreme, that the vast majority of men will read them and instantly dismiss the article as being totally irrelevant.
The problem to me with the initial article, is how many of the anecdotes are actually true?
Even if they are true, they are so extreme, that the vast majority of men will read them and instantly dismiss the article as being totally irrelevant.
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In reply to FactorXXX:
They don't sound fake to me. I don't mean to be rude to you, but its comments like that that minimise the problem, the reality is that women and girls aren't safe from that kind of behaviour. Its upsetting and horrible. Meanwhile so many of the men like yourself that wouldn't behave that way are in denial.
Some of those comments are extreme. Most are things that have happened to most women.
Friends who are unfortunate enough to be pretty or well endowed suffer even more.
They don't sound fake to me. I don't mean to be rude to you, but its comments like that that minimise the problem, the reality is that women and girls aren't safe from that kind of behaviour. Its upsetting and horrible. Meanwhile so many of the men like yourself that wouldn't behave that way are in denial.
Some of those comments are extreme. Most are things that have happened to most women.
Friends who are unfortunate enough to be pretty or well endowed suffer even more.
Post edited at 13:56
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In reply to FactorXXX:
People make things up, or fabricate stories. That's definitely something that happens in life and it won't go away.
But to assume that what people say isn't true, in this context, is completely wrong.
How many cases have there been where someone goes to the police saying they've been raped, and it's not been taken seriously? Or there's the assumption that it didn't happen right from the start.
It's the wrong way to go about things - listen to people, investigate it and make a decision based on facts and evidence. And by questioning what's written you immediately belittle the point it's making. He is reporting what people have said, and they've a right to be heard.
Even if some of those anecdotes aren't true, I bet anything thte there's someone who didn't come forward who can provide the same story that happened to them.
> The problem to me with the initial article, is how many of the anecdotes are actually true?
People make things up, or fabricate stories. That's definitely something that happens in life and it won't go away.
But to assume that what people say isn't true, in this context, is completely wrong.
How many cases have there been where someone goes to the police saying they've been raped, and it's not been taken seriously? Or there's the assumption that it didn't happen right from the start.
It's the wrong way to go about things - listen to people, investigate it and make a decision based on facts and evidence. And by questioning what's written you immediately belittle the point it's making. He is reporting what people have said, and they've a right to be heard.
Even if some of those anecdotes aren't true, I bet anything thte there's someone who didn't come forward who can provide the same story that happened to them.
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In reply to marsbar:
They don't sound fake to me. I don't mean to be rude to you, but its comments like that that minimise the problem, the reality is that women and girls aren't safe from that kind of behaviour. Its upsetting and horrible. Meanwhile so many of the men like yourself that wouldn't behave that way are in denial.
I'm fairly sure such things happen. However, things like having your car roof slashed are so rare, that when I read it in one of the first sentences of the article, I just turned off and assumed that the author was on a 'mission'. Indeed, if you read the rest of the article, it's all written in a 'holier than thou' manner and totally doesn't want me to engage with the writer or listen to what they have to say.
I'm most definitely not in denial about the way some men treat women. I've witnessed it and if I know the person, will tell them that their behaviour is inappropriate, etc. I recognise that there are problems, thankfully not anything like there was a generation or so ago, but I feel that the approach typified by the article in question is going to do absolutely nothing to make borderline offenders change their behaviour to females.
In essence, they are preaching to likeminded people, who will all say how brilliant the article is. If you want to engage and hopefully change the behaviour of the borderline offenders, then maybe write the article(s) in a more balanced fashion and not in a such a patronising way.
They don't sound fake to me. I don't mean to be rude to you, but its comments like that that minimise the problem, the reality is that women and girls aren't safe from that kind of behaviour. Its upsetting and horrible. Meanwhile so many of the men like yourself that wouldn't behave that way are in denial.
I'm fairly sure such things happen. However, things like having your car roof slashed are so rare, that when I read it in one of the first sentences of the article, I just turned off and assumed that the author was on a 'mission'. Indeed, if you read the rest of the article, it's all written in a 'holier than thou' manner and totally doesn't want me to engage with the writer or listen to what they have to say.
I'm most definitely not in denial about the way some men treat women. I've witnessed it and if I know the person, will tell them that their behaviour is inappropriate, etc. I recognise that there are problems, thankfully not anything like there was a generation or so ago, but I feel that the approach typified by the article in question is going to do absolutely nothing to make borderline offenders change their behaviour to females.
In essence, they are preaching to likeminded people, who will all say how brilliant the article is. If you want to engage and hopefully change the behaviour of the borderline offenders, then maybe write the article(s) in a more balanced fashion and not in a such a patronising way.
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In reply to Timmd:
This sums it up quite nicely. First performed in 1963 apparently.
youtube.com/watch?v=8SeRU_ZPDkE&
This sums it up quite nicely. First performed in 1963 apparently.
youtube.com/watch?v=8SeRU_ZPDkE&
In reply to James Malloch:
People make things up, or fabricate stories. That's definitely something that happens in life and it won't go away.
But to assume that what people say isn't true, in this context, is completely wrong.
How many cases have there been where someone goes to the police saying they've been raped, and it's not been taken seriously? Or there's the assumption that it didn't happen right from the start.
It's the wrong way to go about things - listen to people, investigate it and make a decision based on facts and evidence. And by questioning what's written you immediately belittle the point it's making. He is reporting what people have said, and they've a right to be heard.
Even if some of those anecdotes aren't true, I bet anything thte there's someone who didn't come forward who can provide the same story that happened to them.
The problem with the article and indeed your reply, is that it's focusing on the extreme side of things.
The article is not going to change such behaviours as slashing roofs or rape, etc. The sort of people that are capable of doing that are way beyond adjusting their behaviour after reading an article on the Internet. As I said in response to marsbar, that sort of article is aimed more at an audience with the same mindset when it comes to how males treat females, etc.
The people that need to be educated, are the 'borderline offenders'. The ones that whistle and make lewd comments, etc. are the ones that should be targeted and articles going on about roof slashing and forced anal sex aren't going to attract their attention, because like me, they feel it's a world away from what their doing.
People make things up, or fabricate stories. That's definitely something that happens in life and it won't go away.
But to assume that what people say isn't true, in this context, is completely wrong.
How many cases have there been where someone goes to the police saying they've been raped, and it's not been taken seriously? Or there's the assumption that it didn't happen right from the start.
It's the wrong way to go about things - listen to people, investigate it and make a decision based on facts and evidence. And by questioning what's written you immediately belittle the point it's making. He is reporting what people have said, and they've a right to be heard.
Even if some of those anecdotes aren't true, I bet anything thte there's someone who didn't come forward who can provide the same story that happened to them.
The problem with the article and indeed your reply, is that it's focusing on the extreme side of things.
The article is not going to change such behaviours as slashing roofs or rape, etc. The sort of people that are capable of doing that are way beyond adjusting their behaviour after reading an article on the Internet. As I said in response to marsbar, that sort of article is aimed more at an audience with the same mindset when it comes to how males treat females, etc.
The people that need to be educated, are the 'borderline offenders'. The ones that whistle and make lewd comments, etc. are the ones that should be targeted and articles going on about roof slashing and forced anal sex aren't going to attract their attention, because like me, they feel it's a world away from what their doing.
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In reply to FactorXXX:
Being taken seriously, not being blamed is something. I think more convictions is probably the only way to deter some people.
I didnt report it when someone touched me on a tube escalator. Never occurred to me that anyone would be interested or do anything.
Now TFL have a campaign to make reporting easier. Articles like this do raise awareness that its not just you and that its ok to say something.
Being taken seriously, not being blamed is something. I think more convictions is probably the only way to deter some people.
I didnt report it when someone touched me on a tube escalator. Never occurred to me that anyone would be interested or do anything.
Now TFL have a campaign to make reporting easier. Articles like this do raise awareness that its not just you and that its ok to say something.
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In reply to FactorXXX:
How can you know the writer doesn't want you to engage with what is written? Your reaction to what's written and perception of it, doesn't define how it'll be for everybody else. So it isn't that it 'is' holier than thou, more that 'you find it' holier than though. If it was holier than though to everybody - I'd have thought that too.
Except, if you peruse further, you'll find that men have posted on facebook in response to it saying how what is written made them stop and think about how they have behaved previously, making them want to be the person to stop another man from being the same. Some of whom you possibly might call borderline offenders, having read some of their posts on fb, like expecting sex in return for kindness (but not going as far demanding it).
> They don't sound fake to me. I don't mean to be rude to you, but its comments like that that minimise the problem, the reality is that women and girls aren't safe from that kind of behaviour. Its upsetting and horrible. Meanwhile so many of the men like yourself that wouldn't behave that way are in denial.
> I'm fairly sure such things happen. However, things like having your car roof slashed are so rare, that when I read it in one of the first sentences of the article, I just turned off and assumed that the author was on a 'mission'. Indeed, if you read the rest of the article, it's all written in a 'holier than thou' manner and totally doesn't want me to engage with the writer or listen to what they have to say.
How can you know the writer doesn't want you to engage with what is written? Your reaction to what's written and perception of it, doesn't define how it'll be for everybody else. So it isn't that it 'is' holier than thou, more that 'you find it' holier than though. If it was holier than though to everybody - I'd have thought that too.
> I'm most definitely not in denial about the way some men treat women. I've witnessed it and if I know the person, will tell them that their behaviour is inappropriate, etc. I recognise that there are problems, thankfully not anything like there was a generation or so ago, but I feel that the approach typified by the article in question is going to do absolutely nothing to make borderline offenders change their behaviour to females.
> In essence, they are preaching to likeminded people, who will all say how brilliant the article is. If you want to engage and hopefully change the behaviour of the borderline offenders, then maybe write the article(s) in a more balanced fashion and not in a such a patronising way.
Except, if you peruse further, you'll find that men have posted on facebook in response to it saying how what is written made them stop and think about how they have behaved previously, making them want to be the person to stop another man from being the same. Some of whom you possibly might call borderline offenders, having read some of their posts on fb, like expecting sex in return for kindness (but not going as far demanding it).
Post edited at 16:30
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In reply to Timmd:
To be perfectly honest, you're pretty much the target audience that I would expect to read the article and think how brilliant it is. The fact that you've posted it on UKC, sort of proves that.
It's obviously great that some men have read it and modified their behaviour accordingly. It's also great, as marsbar has said in another post, if it makes females more likely to report such incidents.
However, you're still not quite getting the point that I'm trying to make. For example, if someone in work did something inappropriate, I wouldn't show them the article and hope that they would realise that what they were doing was wrong. They'd look at me as if I'm mental and say something like: "Why are you comparing me to a rapist"? "Do you really think that I would damage someone's car"? "I was just having a laugh"...
That's why I say, that if you want to engage with the 'slightly dodgy' men out there, then you need to show them something that they can relate to. Something a bit more akin to everyday situations e.g. make them see that saying suggestive remarks can actually be hurtful and make the female uncomfortable/embarrassed, etc.
I would like to think that we pretty much want the same thing, just I believe that over the top articles like that one aren't the best way of achieving it.
To be perfectly honest, you're pretty much the target audience that I would expect to read the article and think how brilliant it is. The fact that you've posted it on UKC, sort of proves that.
It's obviously great that some men have read it and modified their behaviour accordingly. It's also great, as marsbar has said in another post, if it makes females more likely to report such incidents.
However, you're still not quite getting the point that I'm trying to make. For example, if someone in work did something inappropriate, I wouldn't show them the article and hope that they would realise that what they were doing was wrong. They'd look at me as if I'm mental and say something like: "Why are you comparing me to a rapist"? "Do you really think that I would damage someone's car"? "I was just having a laugh"...
That's why I say, that if you want to engage with the 'slightly dodgy' men out there, then you need to show them something that they can relate to. Something a bit more akin to everyday situations e.g. make them see that saying suggestive remarks can actually be hurtful and make the female uncomfortable/embarrassed, etc.
I would like to think that we pretty much want the same thing, just I believe that over the top articles like that one aren't the best way of achieving it.
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In reply to FactorXXX:
I do get your point, but sometimes the shock value of comparing the behaviour to the next step and then the next step can have value too.
I also think if some men realised how women feel when they get harrassed in a serious way, they might be more able to understandwhy we dont find the more ttrivial stuff funny and more able to see that it can be a bit frightening.
I do get your point, but sometimes the shock value of comparing the behaviour to the next step and then the next step can have value too.
I also think if some men realised how women feel when they get harrassed in a serious way, they might be more able to understandwhy we dont find the more ttrivial stuff funny and more able to see that it can be a bit frightening.
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In reply to FactorXXX:
For sure some of the quotes are extreme, and I hope I have never met anybody who would think such behaviour was ok, but there was quite a wide range down to things that were more like banter gone too far or just showing an excessive sense of entitlement. The point I took from it is that the perception or judgement that matters most is that of the person on the receiving end of the comments or behaviour and being able to see (beforehand) another person's point of view would be a good thing.
For sure some of the quotes are extreme, and I hope I have never met anybody who would think such behaviour was ok, but there was quite a wide range down to things that were more like banter gone too far or just showing an excessive sense of entitlement. The point I took from it is that the perception or judgement that matters most is that of the person on the receiving end of the comments or behaviour and being able to see (beforehand) another person's point of view would be a good thing.
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In reply to Timmd:
I think if you read some of the scenarios and replaced it with men and imagine the outcome or even imagine how you'd feel then I don't think I need to say much more on that. As "unlikely" as some of them would be if switched (like forcing a man to do something sexual he said no to) I'm sure if people are honest with themselves they'd not like it.
Or to put it another way, the attitude and excuses that men "can't control themselves or their urges" is just that. An excuse and that attitude does more harm than good for men as a whole. Why? It's men saying things like that lowering themselves to that of animals rather than human beings who can choose, can control themselves and know better. So such attitudes and behaviours are bad for everybody.
I think if you read some of the scenarios and replaced it with men and imagine the outcome or even imagine how you'd feel then I don't think I need to say much more on that. As "unlikely" as some of them would be if switched (like forcing a man to do something sexual he said no to) I'm sure if people are honest with themselves they'd not like it.
Or to put it another way, the attitude and excuses that men "can't control themselves or their urges" is just that. An excuse and that attitude does more harm than good for men as a whole. Why? It's men saying things like that lowering themselves to that of animals rather than human beings who can choose, can control themselves and know better. So such attitudes and behaviours are bad for everybody.
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In reply to marsbar:
I have a job reconciling "women I know in real life" with "women, and the way they are projected / project themselves on the Internet" Most of my best friends are women, and their experiences don't accord with those I continually read about. I don't know if it's a question of lots of women's experiences drawn from all over the world and condensed so it sounds like women's lives are a continual barrage of sexual harassment and unbearable abuse. And don't say my friends wouldn't tell me if they suffered like that, because they would. I'm glad my daughter spends all her time watching American Horror Story on Netflix when she uses the Internet, or she'd be too scared to go out. I'm also pleased that she has loads of friends who are boys. I think it's healthy.
To be honest, perusing the Internet as a bloke makes you feel like the lowest form of life imaginable. There seems to be a lot of attempts to divide women and men rather than get along. I'm glad my real-life friends experiences are better than what I read here, and I'm glad my relationships with them are strong and nourishing, if that makes sense.
I have a job reconciling "women I know in real life" with "women, and the way they are projected / project themselves on the Internet" Most of my best friends are women, and their experiences don't accord with those I continually read about. I don't know if it's a question of lots of women's experiences drawn from all over the world and condensed so it sounds like women's lives are a continual barrage of sexual harassment and unbearable abuse. And don't say my friends wouldn't tell me if they suffered like that, because they would. I'm glad my daughter spends all her time watching American Horror Story on Netflix when she uses the Internet, or she'd be too scared to go out. I'm also pleased that she has loads of friends who are boys. I think it's healthy.
To be honest, perusing the Internet as a bloke makes you feel like the lowest form of life imaginable. There seems to be a lot of attempts to divide women and men rather than get along. I'm glad my real-life friends experiences are better than what I read here, and I'm glad my relationships with them are strong and nourishing, if that makes sense.
Post edited at 21:37
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In reply to Yanis Nayu:
Ask your friends if they have ever been on the receiving end of wolf whistles, comments, or been touched on public transport.
I would be really suprised if they haven't.
Ask your friends if they have ever been on the receiving end of wolf whistles, comments, or been touched on public transport.
I would be really suprised if they haven't.
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In reply to marsbar:
One of my friends was lamenting a couple of days ago that men don't wolf whistle anymore!
> Ask your friends if they have ever been on the receiving end of wolf whistles, comments, or been touched on public transport.
> I would be really suprised if they haven't.
One of my friends was lamenting a couple of days ago that men don't wolf whistle anymore!
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In reply to Timmd:
I've only skimmed the article but surely it's blatantly obvious to anyone who reads it that the examples given are mostly criminal offences and all are morally wrong?
I would like to see the statistical evidence on how much of this occurs.
I've only skimmed the article but surely it's blatantly obvious to anyone who reads it that the examples given are mostly criminal offences and all are morally wrong?
I would like to see the statistical evidence on how much of this occurs.
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In reply to marsbar:
A few other things - firstly, it would be quite possible for men to collate examples of where they've been hard done to by women, by I don't thing it happens and I don't think it's helpful. Secondly, a lot of the things you refer to happen to men as well. I've had my arse slapped by women at work several times and had suggestive comments made to me, not that I'm bothered. Thirdly, the messages men receive can be very mixed. For example I read stuff like this a couple of days after being told by my mate that she misses being wolf whistled, another friend tells me she likes being checked out by men when she's running - something I as a man make a concerted effort not to do so as not to make women out running feel self-conscious. It's not straightforward.
A few other things - firstly, it would be quite possible for men to collate examples of where they've been hard done to by women, by I don't thing it happens and I don't think it's helpful. Secondly, a lot of the things you refer to happen to men as well. I've had my arse slapped by women at work several times and had suggestive comments made to me, not that I'm bothered. Thirdly, the messages men receive can be very mixed. For example I read stuff like this a couple of days after being told by my mate that she misses being wolf whistled, another friend tells me she likes being checked out by men when she's running - something I as a man make a concerted effort not to do so as not to make women out running feel self-conscious. It's not straightforward.
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In reply to Timmd:
Post removed after reading the OP properly, nothing to see here, please move along.....
Post removed after reading the OP properly, nothing to see here, please move along.....
Post edited at 23:37
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In reply to marsbar:
I know I've had all three.
> Ask your friends if they have ever been on the receiving end of wolf whistles, comments, or been touched on public transport.
> I would be really suprised if they haven't.
I know I've had all three.
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In reply to Yanis Nayu:
Aye, I'm more likely to step in if I see sexual harassment, but at the back of my mind I am worried about being told off for interfering and the person can look after it themselves.
TBH, I don't look at is as women or men either, I just look on both as people and whether it is women or men on the receiving end, sexual harassment is wrong. I don't like it when it is split.
> Thirdly, the messages men receive can be very mixed. For example I read stuff like this a couple of days after being told by my mate that she misses being wolf whistled, another friend tells me she likes being checked out by men when she's running - something I as a man make a concerted effort not to do so as not to make women out running feel self-conscious. It's not straightforward.
Aye, I'm more likely to step in if I see sexual harassment, but at the back of my mind I am worried about being told off for interfering and the person can look after it themselves.
TBH, I don't look at is as women or men either, I just look on both as people and whether it is women or men on the receiving end, sexual harassment is wrong. I don't like it when it is split.
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In reply to Timmd:
Only thing that springs to mind when reading this is your typical Max Hardcore fans on spring break.
Feminazis have completely confused opinions on feminism.
> A facebook friend shared this, and I found it very eye opening, and a little depressing.
Only thing that springs to mind when reading this is your typical Max Hardcore fans on spring break.
> This is a follow up to it....
Feminazis have completely confused opinions on feminism.
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In reply to Yanis Nayu:
I'm curious where you work in 2016 that anyone thinks this is acceptable behaviour. It's totally irrelevant whether or not you're bothered by it.
It really is straightforward. I don't care how many second hand accounts I hear about women who enjoy being whistled or gawked at, I'm not going to start doing it. Because that would make me a dick. I am continually flabbergasted that anyone finds this stuff confusing.
> Secondly, a lot of the things you refer to happen to men as well. I've had my arse slapped by women at work several times and had suggestive comments made to me, not that I'm bothered.
I'm curious where you work in 2016 that anyone thinks this is acceptable behaviour. It's totally irrelevant whether or not you're bothered by it.
> Thirdly, the messages men receive can be very mixed. For example I read stuff like this a couple of days after being told by my mate that she misses being wolf whistled, another friend tells me she likes being checked out by men when she's running - something I as a man make a concerted effort not to do so as not to make women out running feel self-conscious. It's not straightforward.
It really is straightforward. I don't care how many second hand accounts I hear about women who enjoy being whistled or gawked at, I'm not going to start doing it. Because that would make me a dick. I am continually flabbergasted that anyone finds this stuff confusing.
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In reply to planetmarshall:
Of course it's relevant!
I don't whistle at women either. I don't believe that you don't look at women you find attractive, it's just a matter of how blatant or subtle you are. Women perv at men all the time too. What's confusing is the message women give out. That's not a hard concept to understand.
I wish I could see the world as binary as you do. Makes a very complicated world very simple.
> I'm curious where you work in 2016 that anyone thinks this is acceptable behaviour. It's totally irrelevant whether or not you're bothered by it.
Of course it's relevant!
> It really is straightforward. I don't care how many second hand accounts I hear about women who enjoy being whistled or gawked at, I'm not going to start doing it. Because that would make me a dick. I am continually flabbergasted that anyone finds this stuff confusing.
I don't whistle at women either. I don't believe that you don't look at women you find attractive, it's just a matter of how blatant or subtle you are. Women perv at men all the time too. What's confusing is the message women give out. That's not a hard concept to understand.
I wish I could see the world as binary as you do. Makes a very complicated world very simple.
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In reply to Yanis Nayu:
It isn't relevant because the fact that you aren't bothered by this behaviour does not give the offender carte blanche to behave like that towards everyone. Surely it's better to nip it in the bud now rather than just assume that *no one* is bothered by it, or ever will be.
What makes you so sure that I find any women attractive?
It's not about seeing the world in binary terms. It's about the balance of probability. There may be women who enjoy being whistled at. There may be women who enjoy being gawked at, or having their bottom slapped at work - but in the absence of knowing that to be the case, how likely is it really? A single example from the internet does not make this confusing, any more than an anecdotal report of a woman offended by chivalry makes me less likely to hold a door open.
> Of course it's relevant!
It isn't relevant because the fact that you aren't bothered by this behaviour does not give the offender carte blanche to behave like that towards everyone. Surely it's better to nip it in the bud now rather than just assume that *no one* is bothered by it, or ever will be.
> I don't whistle at women either. I don't believe that you don't look at women you find attractive...
What makes you so sure that I find any women attractive?
> I wish I could see the world as binary as you do. Makes a very complicated world very simple.
It's not about seeing the world in binary terms. It's about the balance of probability. There may be women who enjoy being whistled at. There may be women who enjoy being gawked at, or having their bottom slapped at work - but in the absence of knowing that to be the case, how likely is it really? A single example from the internet does not make this confusing, any more than an anecdotal report of a woman offended by chivalry makes me less likely to hold a door open.
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In reply to planetmarshall:
This is exactly the point people need to understand and too many people still don't get it. If it might be inappropriate then don't do it, unless you know that person genuinely likes it. And even then, I'd personally still avoid doing it because of the message it sends to those around you.
It's a culture change. It takes time. But the message should be totally clear.
And it's not just sexism, its pretty much everything. I called some people out on here for using homophobic and insulting language recently, but that was just banter so it's okay. And anyway, someone had a gay friend who didn't mind homophobic slang so what's the problem? If one person likes it then it's fine to use it on an internet forum where hundreds of people, who may find it hugely offensive, can be subject to it too.
Just as here, one female likes being whistled so stop making a big deal of it. And let's not forget that some of those women's accounts probably aren't true anyway. And I've not witnessed it before, so it's probably not an actual problem.
> It's not about seeing the world in binary terms. It's about the balance of probability. There may be women who enjoy being whistled at. There may be women who enjoy being gawked at, or having their bottom slapped at work - but in the absence of knowing that to be the case, how likely is it really? A single example from the internet does not make this confusing, any more than an anecdotal report of a woman offended by chivalry makes me less likely to hold a door open.
This is exactly the point people need to understand and too many people still don't get it. If it might be inappropriate then don't do it, unless you know that person genuinely likes it. And even then, I'd personally still avoid doing it because of the message it sends to those around you.
It's a culture change. It takes time. But the message should be totally clear.
And it's not just sexism, its pretty much everything. I called some people out on here for using homophobic and insulting language recently, but that was just banter so it's okay. And anyway, someone had a gay friend who didn't mind homophobic slang so what's the problem? If one person likes it then it's fine to use it on an internet forum where hundreds of people, who may find it hugely offensive, can be subject to it too.
Just as here, one female likes being whistled so stop making a big deal of it. And let's not forget that some of those women's accounts probably aren't true anyway. And I've not witnessed it before, so it's probably not an actual problem.
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In reply to James Malloch:
I agree that shouting lewd compliments out to women isn't good form and I'm sure some women find it upsetting, no idea on actual percentages but I image its a spectrum, from actively enjoy the attention, to not bothered, to finding it upsetting etc, with women spread out along it.
Funnily enough it happened to my girlfriend and her mate while they were out running in their skimpy little shorts the other week. A middle aged cyclist whist passing said something along the lines of "Wow that's worth cycling up from Leeds for, look at that view" and certainly wasn't referring to the landscape. They just found it a bit bizarre and amusing really, wondering how often that line actually works for him with random strangers and what reaction he was expecting. From my point of view when she was telling me about it at home, I too found his actions a bit bizarre as its so far removed from what I'd do and we had a bit of a laugh about it. In a way (although I don't condone his way of expressing it) is was quite satisfying to know that other men find my girlfriend very attractive, if he's had passed them by without comment then shouted something at the next lot of girls instead I'd be thinking 'Hey what's wrong with her?).
But regardless, of that. What I'm interested in is your idea of not doing something because although some people might be fine with it you know others might not be. It seems perfectly sound where there are clearly a reasonable number who might be justifiably offended by it but I'm sure there is someone out there who finds pretty much anything offensive or hurtful in one way, shape or form. So at what point do people have to stop doing something, how great is the likelihood of offence have to be before something becomes inappropriate?
I agree that shouting lewd compliments out to women isn't good form and I'm sure some women find it upsetting, no idea on actual percentages but I image its a spectrum, from actively enjoy the attention, to not bothered, to finding it upsetting etc, with women spread out along it.
Funnily enough it happened to my girlfriend and her mate while they were out running in their skimpy little shorts the other week. A middle aged cyclist whist passing said something along the lines of "Wow that's worth cycling up from Leeds for, look at that view" and certainly wasn't referring to the landscape. They just found it a bit bizarre and amusing really, wondering how often that line actually works for him with random strangers and what reaction he was expecting. From my point of view when she was telling me about it at home, I too found his actions a bit bizarre as its so far removed from what I'd do and we had a bit of a laugh about it. In a way (although I don't condone his way of expressing it) is was quite satisfying to know that other men find my girlfriend very attractive, if he's had passed them by without comment then shouted something at the next lot of girls instead I'd be thinking 'Hey what's wrong with her?).
But regardless, of that. What I'm interested in is your idea of not doing something because although some people might be fine with it you know others might not be. It seems perfectly sound where there are clearly a reasonable number who might be justifiably offended by it but I'm sure there is someone out there who finds pretty much anything offensive or hurtful in one way, shape or form. So at what point do people have to stop doing something, how great is the likelihood of offence have to be before something becomes inappropriate?
Post edited at 12:01
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In reply to Lord_ash2000:
True, someone will be offended by most things that are said but anyone with a bit of education, someone should know what's right and what's wrong. I think there is a line which needs to be drawn and whilst its very arbitrary, common sense should prevail.
I would imagine that a "reasonable" number of women wouldn't like the comment your partner and her friend received. Therefore I think it's wrong and inappropriate. If you were down at the climbing wall and someone more similar to yourself said it to them, and then another person did too, I'm sure it would feel more offensive/irritating.
How about if it was some drunk singles saying it in a night club? I'm sure it would make it more a more worrying situation for the receiver (victim).
I feel that being okay with it in once, makes it more acceptable in general. Whereas if people are challenged then people might think twice.
> But regardless, of that. What I'm interested in is your idea of not doing something because although some people might be fine with it you know others might not be. It seems perfectly sound where there are clearly a reasonable number who might be justifiably offended by it but I'm sure there is someone out there who finds pretty much anything offensive or hurtful in one way, shape or form. So at what point do people have to stop doing something, how great is the likelihood of offence have to be before something becomes inappropriate?
True, someone will be offended by most things that are said but anyone with a bit of education, someone should know what's right and what's wrong. I think there is a line which needs to be drawn and whilst its very arbitrary, common sense should prevail.
I would imagine that a "reasonable" number of women wouldn't like the comment your partner and her friend received. Therefore I think it's wrong and inappropriate. If you were down at the climbing wall and someone more similar to yourself said it to them, and then another person did too, I'm sure it would feel more offensive/irritating.
How about if it was some drunk singles saying it in a night club? I'm sure it would make it more a more worrying situation for the receiver (victim).
I feel that being okay with it in once, makes it more acceptable in general. Whereas if people are challenged then people might think twice.
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In reply to Lord_ash2000:
I think it would be difficult to put it in mathematical terms, but it's not just a matter of quantity. Put it this way, what if your girlfriend or her mate had been, say 16 years old? I think most people would agree that making lewd remarks at children would be considered inappropriate. Yet in the 1983 The Sun newspaper put a 16 year old girl on Page 3. Things change, and if the result is a few people aren't able to wolf whistle at women without being thought a bit of a tw*t for doing so, I don't think it's any huge loss.
> So at what point do people have to stop doing something, how great is the likelihood of offence have to be before something becomes inappropriate?
I think it would be difficult to put it in mathematical terms, but it's not just a matter of quantity. Put it this way, what if your girlfriend or her mate had been, say 16 years old? I think most people would agree that making lewd remarks at children would be considered inappropriate. Yet in the 1983 The Sun newspaper put a 16 year old girl on Page 3. Things change, and if the result is a few people aren't able to wolf whistle at women without being thought a bit of a tw*t for doing so, I don't think it's any huge loss.
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In reply to Lord_ash2000:
http://rapecrisis.org.uk/statistics.php
How about bringing statistics into it too:
£31% of young women aged 18-24 report having experienced sexual abuse in childhood (NSPCC, 2011)
So based on that study, 31% of current 23-29 year old women experienced some form of sexual abuse in childhood. So the guy on the bike who says it to the next person running along, should they be in that age bracket, might have a 3/10 chance of bringing back those memories from the past. Nice. I'm sure they're delighted people still think comments like those mentioned are okay.
Given how big a problem sexual assault is, surely stamping out any form of it is a positive?
Oh, since your post approximately (on average) 60 adults have suffered some form of sexual assault in England and Wales too.
http://rapecrisis.org.uk/statistics.php
How about bringing statistics into it too:
£31% of young women aged 18-24 report having experienced sexual abuse in childhood (NSPCC, 2011)
So based on that study, 31% of current 23-29 year old women experienced some form of sexual abuse in childhood. So the guy on the bike who says it to the next person running along, should they be in that age bracket, might have a 3/10 chance of bringing back those memories from the past. Nice. I'm sure they're delighted people still think comments like those mentioned are okay.
Given how big a problem sexual assault is, surely stamping out any form of it is a positive?
Oh, since your post approximately (on average) 60 adults have suffered some form of sexual assault in England and Wales too.
Post edited at 13:05
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In reply to James Malloch:
You're quite right, and I'd put shouting lewd remarks at random women very much in the not acceptable camp, as like you say there is a line that has to be drawn somewhere and I'd say those sorts of comments towards women are over that line.
I just worry that if we give the "one mustn't ever risk offending anyone" mantra too much weight we'd all end up living in a world to scared to say or do anything for fear of some offence that may be caused. For example, I've a lot to say about religion and its destructive influence on society, a lot of that may be offensive to some people, equally my political views may be offensive to some and so on.
I think we must be careful around offence because its often used as a shield by people who don't want their views challenged, partially with regards to religion which can often also have a large part to play in the attitudes towards women. I think to some degree we need a right to offend, because sometimes it is necessary to challenge the ways people think and act even if they hold those values dear.
You're quite right, and I'd put shouting lewd remarks at random women very much in the not acceptable camp, as like you say there is a line that has to be drawn somewhere and I'd say those sorts of comments towards women are over that line.
I just worry that if we give the "one mustn't ever risk offending anyone" mantra too much weight we'd all end up living in a world to scared to say or do anything for fear of some offence that may be caused. For example, I've a lot to say about religion and its destructive influence on society, a lot of that may be offensive to some people, equally my political views may be offensive to some and so on.
I think we must be careful around offence because its often used as a shield by people who don't want their views challenged, partially with regards to religion which can often also have a large part to play in the attitudes towards women. I think to some degree we need a right to offend, because sometimes it is necessary to challenge the ways people think and act even if they hold those values dear.
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In reply to Lord_ash2000:
With every cultural change there are gains and losses. I think if we genuinely lost the ability to challenge religious or political dogma for the sake of being nice to everyone, that would be far too high a price (and such a price has already been paid in Rotherham, for example).
But I think by and large, becoming a more tolerant society has been a net positive gain, and I for one am not going to cry myself to sleep because someone called me a perv for looking down some girl's blouse on the tube.
> I just worry that if we give the "one mustn't ever risk offending anyone" mantra too much weight we'd all end up living in a world to scared to say or do anything for fear of some offence that may be caused. For example, I've a lot to say about religion and its destructive influence on society, a lot of that may be offensive to some people, equally my political views may be offensive to some and so on.
With every cultural change there are gains and losses. I think if we genuinely lost the ability to challenge religious or political dogma for the sake of being nice to everyone, that would be far too high a price (and such a price has already been paid in Rotherham, for example).
But I think by and large, becoming a more tolerant society has been a net positive gain, and I for one am not going to cry myself to sleep because someone called me a perv for looking down some girl's blouse on the tube.
Post edited at 13:25
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In reply to Lord_ash2000:
I'd hate to live in a world where people can't speak what they think (within reason).
Personally, I think religion is a great thing and brings great joy, meaning and hope for billions of people across the world. But there are bad points and these should be challenged, but with a balanced opinion. Why are some things the way they are, how has society changed to mean this might not be appropriate now, what do I think should be changed and how would this affect that religion/the people that follow it. Most of all how can a sensible debate be entered that doesn't make someone feel oppressed or vindicated, and a debate that I go into open minded with the chance my mind/view could actually change.
I would say that is an offence with legitimate reason though. However negative sexual comments to others do not have a legitimate reason to be aired other than someone thinking they're funny or hoping they'll get something out of it.
I'd hate to live in a world where people can't speak what they think (within reason).
Personally, I think religion is a great thing and brings great joy, meaning and hope for billions of people across the world. But there are bad points and these should be challenged, but with a balanced opinion. Why are some things the way they are, how has society changed to mean this might not be appropriate now, what do I think should be changed and how would this affect that religion/the people that follow it. Most of all how can a sensible debate be entered that doesn't make someone feel oppressed or vindicated, and a debate that I go into open minded with the chance my mind/view could actually change.
I would say that is an offence with legitimate reason though. However negative sexual comments to others do not have a legitimate reason to be aired other than someone thinking they're funny or hoping they'll get something out of it.
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In reply to Lord_Ash2000:
But it's not always about causing offence, some comments may seem innocent to the guys saying it but can seem intimidating or threatening to the woman on the receiving end. It's not all about being annoyed or offended it can be about feeling safe.
But it's not always about causing offence, some comments may seem innocent to the guys saying it but can seem intimidating or threatening to the woman on the receiving end. It's not all about being annoyed or offended it can be about feeling safe.
Post edited at 22:05
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In reply to Timmd:
Has anyone here clicked on TomTom's link in the "Anyone any good at drawing? Fancy a project?" thread?
Has anyone here clicked on TomTom's link in the "Anyone any good at drawing? Fancy a project?" thread?
Post edited at 22:40
In reply to Yanis Nayu:
>And don't say my friends wouldn't tell me if they suffered like that, because they would.
I used to think that this stuff doesn't happen to the women I know and the men I know don't do it. Asked a couple female friends. Turns out it's happened to a lots of women I know, it's been done by some men I know, people's dad's tend not to get informed.
>And don't say my friends wouldn't tell me if they suffered like that, because they would.
I used to think that this stuff doesn't happen to the women I know and the men I know don't do it. Asked a couple female friends. Turns out it's happened to a lots of women I know, it's been done by some men I know, people's dad's tend not to get informed.
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