UKC

Advice please.

I bought an abseil rope, static or semi static, I can't remember which. Bought from a reputable shop, which incidentally does a lot of caving gear. Sold to me off the roll, on line, as Mammut.

After not much use it is really stiff, you don't so much coil it as fold it. Also the sheath is fluffing quickly just from abseiling.

Is this normal?

In reply to ian caton:

First of all, there are no static ropes sold... even a steel wire is not static and ropes stretch a lot more.

That said, semi static ropes can be rather stiff (especially the thicker ones, say 11mm diameter).

As for the sheath gettin' fluffy, from abseiling... I find that rather strange, sure if you happen to rappel down a 45 degree scree rope... but generally normal rappelling should not do that.

In reply to ian caton:

We've got a white one in our club stores that did the same thing pretty quickly. Still works as of last time I abbed on it.

In reply to HeMa:

There are definitely static ropes sold..

Just because a 60m steel wire stretches 20mm over its whole length, doesn't make it dynamic!

In reply to AC93:


But they don't meet EN 1891-A (or B) which anything sold by a reputable shop that deals in climbing and caving gear for the purposes of top-roping or rigging would.

In reply to ian caton:

the more expensive of the two beal ones stays pretty supple for future reference (the one meant for irata work but is also sold to cavers and climbers from some shops)

In reply to AC93:

I'm interested now - can you provider a link to one of these static ropes you had in mind?

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Wait i'm wrong, I got my definitions of semi-static and semi-dynamic confused.

The way I was taught was: Static rope is for top anchoring, semi-dynamic is for top roping and dynamic is for leading.

In reply to ian caton:

Ian
I have a sixty metre static bought off a reel from a climbing/caving shop. I would guess it has had 20 outings maybe 50 abseils and it is the same condition as your description, also difficult to get through the belay device. It is still useable but difficult to coil and quite difficult to use.

In reply to ian caton:

Within the caving world the Mammut rope (is it gold colour?) has a reputation for being cheap but also going stiff very quickly. My one length has been used only a few times and has gone like this, unlike my Beale ropes. If you want a good, semi-static rope, have a look at either Gleistein,as sold by Hitch and Hike, or Spanset.

In reply to ian caton:

I have a mammut semi static for abseiling. It's pretty stiff, and can be pretty hard work to feed into my belay plate.

It was cheap and it works though. The guy in hitch n hike me that the Beal semi static is easier to work with but there was no point in spending the extra just for sea cliff abseils, which I think was fair.

Don't you love shops that talk you out of spending extra money?

In reply to ian caton:

In the absence of any other evidence, I'm assuming that the 'fluffing' you mention is due to abrasion. Sheath abrasion resistance does vary a lot, even with ropes from reputable manufacturers. I currently have a 50m Beal and an 80m Edelrid. Being white, the Beal quite quickly became very old-looking, but its sheath is resisting wear well, much better than the off the reel rope it replaced. The Edelrid seems to have a slightly softer sheath, but is still okay. Both are 10mm btw.

Dirt in the sheath will cause stiffness, as will frequent washing with just water. If the stiffness becomes excessive, it's okay to wash ropes in a 20-25% solution of fabric softener. I've done this myself, although to be effective it needs to be done relatively often. See Use and Care of Ropes: http://www.ussartf.org/ropes_knots.htm

In more detail:

'Since some ropes tend to become very stiff after extended use, everyone sooner or later ponders whether to use fabric softener on their rope. Softeners work by the action of Quaternary Ammonium Salts. These salts adhere to the furface [<-orig.American ] coating. This coating is very slick and allows the fibers to slip past each other with very little friction. This lubricating effect increases the flexibility of the material which people interpret as being softer when in reality it is only more flexible. These ammonium salts have no harmful effect on nylon and the use of fabric softeners on rope is quite advantageous.

The softeners have other advantages. That portion which penetrates to the core of the kernmantle ropes lubricates the minute filaments and helps keep them from abrading on each other while the rope is flexing. The softener also forms a barrier between the rope's nylon fibers and dirt particles."
- Kyle Isenhart, Nylon Highway.

As yet, the jury's out regarding the "feeling of freshness" as promised in product literature.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

http://www.marlowropes.com/defence-products-1/abseilclimbing/abseil-rope.ht...
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=381406#x5526614

This stuff (in 11mm) has less than 1% elongation when a 50-100kg mass is attached, I believe low stretch kernmantle (LSK or semi-static) has to have less than 5% stretch but to meet the EN1891 standard it must exhibit a peak force of less than 6kN when a 100kg mass takes a 0.3 fall factor drop. The Black Marlow would not pass this test because of its extremely low elasticity.

In reply to ian caton:

Thanks for all responses.

The rope is white, with black flecks, 10 mm, clean and has been used less than 20 times, 2 people each time.

It is somewhat reassuring that some people have had the same experience.

I loath it, thanks for advice on alternatives.

In reply to EddInaBox:
interesting so although its not completely static / un-stretchy - from a standards point of view it doesn't conform to EN1891 for semi static rope - how about we call it demi semi static?

In reply to EddInaBox:

Slight error there... 1% elongation with 50-150kg.

In reply to EddInaBox:
it may have 1/3 of the elongation but it only applies 30% more peak force than semi static (in the drop test)

http://www.riggingservices.co.uk/salesdesk/documents/manuals/Marlow_Static....

In reply to CurlyStevo:


That table shows the drop test was carried out on a rope tied with a figure-8 on the bight, which would reduce the peak force, so it is not possible to make a proper comparison. All I know for sure is that I wouldn't want to take a fall on either of them.

In reply to EddInaBox:
It also shows a spliced eye test which assumedly will be absorbing very little force. In that the marlow black has about 40% more max force than the semi static.

I say Demi Semi Static

In reply to CurlyStevo:


That's easy for you to say... but I've got a severe lisp!

In reply to ian caton:
I am fairly confident there is absolutely no good reason a climber would ever want normal-diameter rope that, due to a lack of stretchiness, does not conform to either the low-stretch (EN 1891) or dynamic (EN 892) rope standards. The stretch is there for safety.

Cavers _might_ want truly static rope for ascending very, very long free-hanging drops (I have some 'super-static' but still EN 1891 B 9.5mm rope with a kevlar core to reduce the static elongation from the usual 4% to 2%), as more often done in the States I believe, but this has to be done with great care. Even static rope is very bouncy when you try ascending more than ~30m of it.

I have a fair amount of 9mm static rope and I have noticed that after it has been loaded it does not like to bend immediately; it is supple enough once you have bent it once but when you first haul it up it comes up in straight sections with sharper bends between them which is a bit odd!

In reply to ian caton:

I picked up a very useful tip for reducing fluffing from an old-boy whilst climbing in Pembroke.

If you clip your rope into the anchor point with a krab and a Figure of 8 on the bite, each time you abseil, pull up an armful of rope and tie another figure of 8 on the bite and clip this into your anchor in place of the original knot. This way a different part of the rope passes over the edges each time you abseil, spreading the wear more evenly.

It seems so simple and obvious now, but we'd never thought of doing it (and had trashed a couple of ropes through repeatedly abbing over edges).

Also have the orange/gold Mammut rope and it is indeed very stiff.

In reply to SuperLee1985:

Thats a great idea if a) your rope is long enough and b) you don't need to rig it to the right length to avoid dangling it in the sea !

In reply to ian caton:

The fluffing along the length can be caused by small burrs on your abseil device, maybe check that for condition and buff any out with fine emery cloth.
Another cause of stiffness is excessive heat glazing the sheath of the rope.
How do you handle it? Do you use a rope tarp to keep it as clean as possible ?
We tend to periodically wash our work ropes in a pillowcase in thewashing machine using a mild ph neutral soap.

In reply to SuperLee1985:


I've got another tip... when your rope gets really fluffy go over it with a hot air paint stripper, it'll be smooth as a baby's bum in no time...

... then list it on eBay as practically brand new and put the money towards a new one.

In reply to phizz4:

Agreed. You definitely get what you pay for with static/semi static. I avoid the mammut stuff now, the orange / gold is particularly bad.

Bought some black Beal rope for an extra 50% and it's stayed supple. A few runs through the washing machine have helped get the dirt out the sheath.

In reply to SuperLee1985:

Thanks for reply, but we nearly always use rope protector, but it is fluffing over the entire length pretty much evenly.

In reply to muppetfilter:

Good thought and will check, but the last rope ( old climbing rope) didn't fluff at all.

We abseil slow, it is kept in a rope bag.

In reply to ian caton:

If you need to ab from the cliff top how do you use the rope protector? In the past I've found I can only use them if you can scramble down a bit before starting the ab

In reply to ian caton:

Geostatic in 9mm is so supple it handles like a dynamic half rope. I use this in shorter lengths for SRT caving [I use Beal Speleogold 9.5mm in longer lengths; it's very expensive and certainly doesn't feel like dynamic rope!]

Draw backs of a supple semi static is that it will absorb more water; perhaps not too big a consideration for climbing, the rope is pretty bouncy for ascending [that's why I use the Geostatic for short drops], and of course it is less robust.

The Mammut rope is the worst rope I've ever used, but it was cheap. I had 60m, bought for a certain cave pitch, used twice then punted. It was cosmetically as new, but even then it was a case of fold rather than coil !

In reply to CurlyStevo:

In some places, you could abseil just over the edge and then slide the rope protector down into place afterwards.

In reply to Luke90:

yeah sometimes

In reply to ian caton:

As people have said, furry sheaths on semi-static abseil ropes are generally caused by abrasion over rock edges, particularly when the rope moves laterally across a rough or sharp edge as the abseiler swings left or right below the abrasion point (often unavoidable).

So a single abseil set-up, particularly if used by more than one party as is common in eg Pembroke, will result in furriness in one or more distinct places along the rope, and effectively zero damage elsewhere. Re-rigging the rope - eg raising it by only a small amount, as SuperLee has said, ensures a different bit of the rope is abraded after each re-rigging. Using a rope protector sheath stops abrasion completely, but that's normally only possible right at the top, above where people get on the rope.

How much abrasion depends on the nature of the rock. Some heavily used Pembroke abseil lines are now so polished at all the possible abrasion points that the damage is small. On the other hand the black razor-sharp "churt" (I think it is) at Swanage can cause serious damage. Our nearly brand new club rope had the sheath completely severed leaving a stretch of core strands only in one session at subluminal - shocked us all.

Martin

In reply to CurlyStevo:
Thanks for input, but Eh?

Simple, ab down rope, see where it rubs, put on rope protector attach to prussic.

If you're on mingulay, abseil a bit more and repeat and repeat.

Pays to have a second rope to attach them too so numpties put them back in the right place.

did you shrink it ?
With my caving ropes they all get dumped in the bath overnight before first use and shrink a lot.
This might well protect the core a bit more

In reply to ian caton:
OK so you have to take them off and put them back on to pass them I guess. Not something I've had to do in the past and I've done a fair amount of ab descents to routes at places like Swanage but then many of those are free hanging and mostly the rock at the top is quite polished and not super sharp.

In reply to mountainpenguin:

Yup shrunk in bath.

In reply to Martin Hore:

Hi Martin, I guess I must have miscommunicated. Furring is pretty much even over the used length of the rope.

Hey, I see you have done se classic on pombie wall. Top tick.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

One is OK, a few is a pain.

In reply to ian caton:



Ah, so it must be something else of course that's caused it.

Yes that route was great. Took all day including descent to road. Afterwards talked to camp-site owner who berated us for arriving so late and claimed par time was 3 hours!

Martin

In reply to davidbeynon:


Ha, they can try but they've never succeeded yet.

In reply to BarrySW19:

To be clear I always spend the extra on something else.