UKC

Looking for a new mid/ action layer for attempted summits of Mont Blanc and hopefully leading on to Elbrus and Aconcagua over the next few years.

Having read all sorts of articles (particularly those by Andy Kirkpatrick) rather than clarifying things, I've become more confused as to the various options: softshell, Polartec Alpha etc etc.

The items currently under consideration are:

Patagonia Nano Air (FullRange)
Patagonia Nano Puff (PrimaLoft)
Montane Alpha Guide (Polartec Alpha)
Montane Prism (PrimaLoft)


My current baselayers are Brynje Classic Wool and Brynje Arctic shirts. The mid/ action layer would then be supplemented by a booster layer.

In reply to 83earl:

Well too me these jackets, whilst all being warm, have different uses. The Puff and Prism are more of a 'keep warm whilst stood still' jacket, you'll probably get quite sweaty in these during long uphill slogs, though they are often the first thing I put on when I get to the top (for the sake of correctness, I've got the Flux - the prisms big brother).

The Air and the Guide are more keep warm when moving as they breathe an awful lot better. The air has synthetic insulation all over where as I believe the Guide is an insulated core and hood with powerstretch like material on the arms and sides, so I'd expect the air to be a tad warmer but the guide to be a wicking beast. Though I hear amazing tales of the breathability of the Air. If it were me, I think i'd go air - especially if your not scraping it along granite laybacks. Plus if you whack on a windproof outer over the top, it's essentially a Prism/Puff kind of combo.

Hope that helps. Though someone will be along soon to tell me I'm wrong which I could well be...

In reply to 83earl:

I own 3 of the 4 and only ever put the Nano Air on. Prism and Puff have been lent to other family members. In fact I have 2 Airs, they're that good.

In reply to Dino Dave:

Thanks for the comment. I have to agree my initial impression was that the Prism (being PrimaLoft) would me more of a stationary item. However during my reading I have seen it described as a 'soft shell' (andy-kirkpatrick.com/blog/view/4000_metre_layers). Whilst Montane refer to it as a 'mid-layer within any shell system or alone as an outer jacket in drier weather'. The Montane site also suggest the Prism is used by Mountain Rescue although what capacity I am not sure.

Reading the Patagonia website, the Nano Puff comes across as a belay and minimalist bivouacs piece. Although Cold Thistle talk of it as 'a wind shell and additional insulation layer' (coldthistle.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/patagonia-nano-puff-pull-over.html) A UKC review by Jon Griffith talks of it as being indispensable as a winter midlayer (ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=2546). Climbing Gear Reviews, Climbing.com and Peak Mountain Guides all seem to suggest it can do anything and everything (climbinggearreviewsuk.wordpress.com/2011/10/07/patagonia-nano-puff-jacket-climbing-gear-review) (climbing.com/gear/editors-choice-classic-patagonia-nano-puff-jacket) (peakmountainguides.com/blog/?p=127).

On the Nano Air Alan Arnette refers to it as 'an amazing jacket from Patagonia that I use as a mid layer. It wicks, breaths and stays warm when a bit wet. Nothing else like it on the market imho. Not waterproof or wind resistant in high winds. My standard mid layer these days.' He even talks about how the R1 Hoody has been 'replaced by Nano-Air' (alanarnette.com/climbing/gearlist.php)

As I say the more reading and research I do the more confused I get!

In reply to BnB:

Thanks for the reply. Hope this doesn't sound to much of a obvious question but where and how (layering etc) do you use the Nano Air?

In reply to 83earl:

Also consider the Arc'teryx Atom LT as a mid-layer/ cool, dry weather outer-layer.

In reply to GarethSL:

Thanks for the recommendation, looking at it, it seems to be a synthetic fill, putting it in the same grouping as the Nano Puff and Prism? Assuming you have one, if so what do you typically use it for and how do you layer it?

In reply to 83earl:

Nano Air over short sleeve wicking tee shirt and that's it for 90% of the time. Windshirt over the top for picnics (also means you can replace Nano Air with the windshirt for moving on warmer days). Softshell or hardshell over the top for winter climbing.

I wear it for rock climbing, hiking and winter. Best outdoor garment I've ever owned.

In reply to BnB:

Thanks. When you say winter climbing assume you mean in Scotland? Have you ever used it in the Alps? As I say looking for something for use on Mont Blanc then hopefully if all goes well for Elbrus and Aconcagua. Out of interest which softshell do you typically use with it?

In reply to 83earl:

Would be perfect for the Alps. Indeed it's recommended for Alpine and tested there. Although the choice is confusing, with lots of recomendations from people pleased with their purchases, everyone who has actually owned a Nano Air has had several garments beforehand for the same purpose and they all say it's a massive step forward in breathability, which means you can wear it for more uses, more of the time.

I wouldn't get hung up on softshell choice on the same thread, especially as a windshirt combines best with the Nano Air most of the time. The shell is for severe conditions only.

In reply to BnB:

Thanks for the advice. Certainly agree about choice being confusing. Once I've started looking in to options more deeply I've just become more and more confused!

In terms of windshirt do you use the Patagonia Houdini or an alternative with the Nano Air?

In reply to 83earl:

Arcteryx Squamish. It's the most expensive of all by some way, but superior in durability, comfort and features (good pocket and cuff tabs so you can adjust comfort). Plenty of options at half the price that are good enough, but certainly not as good IMO.

In reply to 83earl: like Bnb I use a nano air overa base layer that might be merino, might be capilene. Works fantastically well. My soft shell is a Norrona Falketind I think, but I like it a lot. I have gone off Arcteryx kit.

In reply to 83earl:

Any of the jackets you mention are too warm for 90% of a summer ascent of Mont blanc and are more 'booster' like. A good 'action' layer would be something in the lines of a thin grid-fleece top, or a Rab Boreas. These pieces are often enough to stay comfortable when active in cold and dry conditions. When conditions deteriorate, or technical climbing is slowing your pace, a lightweight hardshell and/or primaloft-type jacket can be added.

A nanopuff type garment can thus be viewed as a windproof warm sweater and is suitable to belaying in summer conditons or active use in colder conditions.

In reply to 83earl:

I reviewed an early Polartec Alpha jacket (from Marmot) and didn't think that much of it http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/marmot-isotherm-hoodypolart... BnB assures me the Nano Airs are miles ahead in terms of breathability.

for what you are discussing I still find a good technical micro fleece and a light windproof works very well for me - more flexible that a one layer mid layer like you are suggesting. Some waffling on about this here: http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/marmot-isotherm-hoodypolart...

In reply to wbo:

What type of things do you use the Nano Air for, anything similar to what I am looking to use it for?

In reply to timmeehhhh:

I did come across one post by Andy Kirkpatrick where he talked about using a Montane Pertex Lite Speed jacket over a long sleeved top and then a thin highly breathable fleece with a hood (the Montane Allez Micro Hoodie or the Montane Power Up Hoodie). (andy-kirkpatrick.com/blog/view/active_layer_question). This would seem to be inline with what you are suggesting? One concern with this approach would appear to be the constantly adding/ removing layers (the fleece and windproof jacket)? If wearing the baselayer and windproof the windproof would have to removed to add the fleece. And likewise to remove the fleece if too hot the windproof would then have to come off again?

Have you done any of the climbs I am looking at, if so out of interest what was your layering system?

In reply to TobyA:

I think there may have been an error in your second link (same as the first). As I said in the above reply, with the fleece/ windproof approach I'd be concerned about constantly adding removing rearranging layers etc.

In reply to 83earl:

Sorry, should have been http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/a-beginner-guide-to-clothin...

Are you a beginner though? Have you done any mountaineering or hill walking? Presuming you have, what clothes do you use currently and what is wrong/right with them? I've got this feeling that you might be over-thinking this, unless you're really just looking to justify a nice new Patagonia coat!

When companies claim some miracle new garment or fabric that is "going to replace X traditional layers" I get a bit sceptical. Lots of things claiming that have come and gone over the decades I've climbed and followed the industry. You are going to get 'wrong' conditions for everything as some time - that's what zips are for - open them if too hot, do them up if too cold! So, yep, I reckon sometimes you need to take of a layer or put one on, but that's sort of true of any clothing system.

In reply to 83earl:

My advice is don't buy the hype.
When I went to the Alps including a Mont Blanc ascent I wore a long sleeved Lowe Alpine base with zip turtle neck. This I wore to the Gouter hut.
I had a polartec 200 micro fleece, a full weight Mountain Equipment Changabang and as a back up a spare 200 weight fleece and Down duvet. Worked well.

In reply to 83earl: > What type of things do you use the Nano Air for, anything similar to what I am looking to use it for?

Pretty much everything thanks. Belay jacket, shopping, hiking in Jotunheimen in a storm, tinderangling in Sunnmore in better weather, below and also without a softshell or goretex. Also for kayaking and trout fishing in mountain lakes, It's a very useful thing, probably helped as it fits me pretty well.

In reply to 83earl:
I have no experience with the altitude you are planning for, but did do some summer alpine stuff in very fickle weather conditions, aswel as ice climbing trips using the same system. It took me quite a while to work it out for myself, but am very pleased with the way it works. I have however not used it below -15£C, so I can imagine it could be insufficient for really cold conditions.

base (depending on conditions): t-shirt / longsleeve / fleece top
active layer: Rab Ventus (Boreas without the hood)
booster: Lightweight Primaloft (can be layered under or over the shell jacket)
shell jacket: I used a neoshell jacket but it wore out quite fast, so now i'm looking for a replacement.
Sometimes I also carry a belay jacket for emergencies and standing around

The point you raised about down stripping before layering up is rarely an issue with this system. There are no thick fleece layers that breathe well but require to be worn underneath a windproof layer. The Rab Boreas-type layers are way more breathable and stretchy than Pertex-style windshirts and work in a wider rage of conditions (I have a Houdini and it breathes and feels like a bin bag compared to the Boreas/Ventus). Note that I run very hot, so it might be terrible for you of course

In reply to BnB:
Are you going to supplement them with a nano-air light:

http://eu.patagonia.com/enGB/product/mens-nano-air-light-hoody?p=84280-0

or do you think the original is the right warmth level?

In reply to galpinos: I like mine as it is.

I really don't get why you make that lighter but as a smock. Maximum options for ventilation please

In reply to TobyA:

Thanks, will have a read of the article. I have done plenty of hill walking and wild camping in the UK, although admittedly this tends to be more in the Spring - Autumn period. I have done high altitude trekking in the Nepal Himalayas. Mont Blanc and the associated training will be my first venture in to mountaineering.

In the UK I predominantly just wear a merino t-shirt and carry a Patagonia Alpine Houdini for if it rains and a Rab Electron Down Jacket for the evenings/ when stationary. In Nepal I mainly wore the Brynje Classic Wool or Arctic shirt with a insulated vest top. I recall the morning of the Kala Patthar climb (c.5,600m) being cold at the summit, although can't remember what I was wearing.

In reply to Dave the Rave:

Thanks for sharing your experience. For the ascent from the Gouter hut, was one jumper sufficient of was the spare ever required?

In reply to timmeehhhh:

Thanks for the comments. I had read a rather positive review of the Rab Boreas Pull-On on UKC (http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=7613). Although thought conventional practice was for full length zips rather than half/ quarter length? Recent experience with Rab has kind of put me off them, have had an issue with a down jacket, less than 6 months old, minimal use and there aftercare has been shockingly bad. Interesting to note your comments about the Houdini.

Out of interest what weight PrimaLoft jacket do you use?

In reply to 83earl:

The Boreas is a layer that I rarely take off during a climb, so I don't need a full zip. It also fits better under a harness this way, and zipper failures are less likely to happen. The simplicity of this garment makes it very unlikely that you will need Rab aftersales (my experience with them has always been very satisfactory).

As for the Primaloft I use this one: http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=6290

In reply to wbo:

I like smocks, I don't want zips under my harness and I don't zip down blow my harness anyway so no ventilation compromise. I guess lighter as they thought the original was too warm?

In reply to galpinos:

You gear pusher, you!

I can see the advantages of the lighter model. Undoubtedly would work better as a super comfortable fleece with less risk of overheating under a hardshell, however, it's unlikely to be as effective as an outer jacket.

"A third less insulative" could also be described as "the original is 50% warmer" which sounds like a bigger gulf in insulation.

In reply to BnB:


Me, never! I'm just in the market and considering what to get. I can only afford 1!



50% warmer might mean 50% less use if you overheat in it?

In reply to galpinos:



True. But I wear mine most of the time so that doesn't appear to be a problem. Which maybe answers the question.