UKC

MWIS closing?

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 Andy Hardy 09 Sep 2016
This just appeared on my Facebook news feed, is it true?
"Geoff Monk and MWIS are being taken offline from 31 Dec 2016 as far as I can see and the decision by Sport Scotland, MCoS and the Scottish Government has already been made, behind closed doors. Cost saving could be at the heart of this, so I hope that whoever takes over mountain forecasts in the UK can also help save lives in the way that Geoff Monk and MWIS has over many years. Anyone who has listened to Geoff Monk will know how knowledgeable, enthusiastic and committed he is to forging links with mountaineers. Personally I don't think he can be replaced and If you feel able to pass on this bad news within the mountain community, it may help to show how much Geoff Monk is held in high regard. Have any of you been asked for an opinion on which mountain forecast is best for mountaineers? Have any of you been asked if MWIS is fit for purpose? Try lobbying your local MSP and MCoS. Please also share this post to as many folk as you can, especially the Met Office. They will struggle to follow Geoff monk."
3
 olddirtydoggy 09 Sep 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

As much as I appreciate th work of MWIS I must admit the met office is more accurate for English/Welsh weather. Still, a shame.
19
 planetmarshall 09 Sep 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Saw this, but have yet to see a corroborating source.
 abr1966 09 Sep 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Really hope that isn't true...
 gethin_allen 10 Sep 2016
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

> As much as I appreciate th work of MWIS I must admit the met office is more accurate for English/Welsh weather. Still, a shame.

But do they do the avalanche risk forecast?
 Sharp 10 Sep 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

I much prefer the mwis format, hopefully it's not true. He lives just down the road from where I work and he was giving a talk with Aileen Campbell (MSP for health and sport) in dalry a couple of weeks ago.
1
James Jackson 10 Sep 2016
In reply to gethin_allen:

The Met Office provide the weather data for SAIS.
 wercat 10 Sep 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Bloody Hell!
 Fiona Reid 10 Sep 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

There's now more info on the front page of the MWIS website: http://www.mwis.org.uk

Seems the funding from Sport Scotland has been axed
1
 PPP 10 Sep 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

I just refuse to believe that MWIS can be closed. It's like walking boots. They can't be gone, even for a day!

Sad to hear that anyway, all the best and hat off to Geoff.
1
 Jon Read 10 Sep 2016
In reply to Fiona Reid:

This is undeserved. IMO, the MWIS provides essential information for planning trips to the NW highlands , way more useful than the Met Office mountain forecasts. How can we appeal against this decision (made on our behalf)?
 olddirtydoggy 10 Sep 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

The MET office might be planning a replacement service for it.
 Jon Read 10 Sep 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Reflecting more, what makes the MWIS service most useful is that pdf option -- I can download it when I get good connection and take it into the hills (and disconnectivity) with me. The Met Office website is bloatware in comparison.
 PPP 10 Sep 2016
In reply to Jon Read:

There's Met Office app (at least on iPhone), you know! That should (theoretically) even easier to download the forecast.
1
 BelleVedere 10 Sep 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

"MWIS is asking those in the mountain community who use MWIS forecasts to declare their support for MWIS by writing to Shaun Roberts, Head of Glenmore Lodge (SportScotland) (enquiries@glenmorelodge.org.uk) and Richard Orrell at the Met Office (Richard.Orrell@metoffice.gov.uk) asking them to reinstate MWIS funding, and copying in geoff@mwis.org.uk."

^from the MWIS press release
1
 gethin_allen 10 Sep 2016
In reply to James Jackson:

> The Met Office provide the weather data for SAIS.

But don't MWIS do the avalanche report on top of the general weather.
 Raskye 10 Sep 2016
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

I suppose it depends on how you want it presented... Hmmm will I need a brolly today? I'll check the met office!
 petestack 10 Sep 2016
In reply to gethin_allen:

> But don't MWIS do the avalanche report on top of the general weather.

No. They just link to it. But still need saving for what they do provide themselves.
 BelleVedere 10 Sep 2016
In reply to gethin_allen:

> But don't MWIS do the avalanche report on top of the general weather.

-that's the Scottish Avalanche Information Service (SAIS)
 Maarten2 10 Sep 2016
In reply to Jon Read:

On the MWIS: page http://www.mwis.org.uk
are a number of email addresses to make an appeal.
I'd say, include your MSP (assuming you're in Scotland), their emails can be found here:
http://www.parliament.scot/help/32438.aspx
1
 buzby 10 Sep 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

sent an e mail to all concerned but wouldn't it be an idea for someone to start one of those online petitions, gets all the names in one place and make sit easy to sign which would get the numbers up pretty quickly.
1
 Wainers44 11 Sep 2016
In reply to buzby:

Signed both!
 Jon Read 11 Sep 2016
In reply to PPP:

> There's Met Office app (at least on iPhone), you know! That should (theoretically) even easier to download the forecast.

No much use for a Windows phone with no data signal! I know, I should update my phone, but it drives me nuts the modern dependence on phones/tablets, especially for outdoor services like this. I also understand the iphone battery lasts mere hours, rather than the week my phone can eek out -- a high priority for me.
 RomTheBear 11 Sep 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

I'm just wondering, wouldn't it be easier for them to just keep going with a paid-for premium service, or donations, or something of the sort ? I mean, how much money is needed for this to actually keep running ?
 PPP 11 Sep 2016
In reply to RomTheBear:

From some other threads, it seemed like it would have been too expensive for us to support MWIS - government has to help MWIS to keep it alive. Some other rumours say that Geoff wants to retire.

I imagine it's not that cheap as you probably need to access data that is not publicly available.

Though I have no idea what I am talking about.
 BnB 11 Sep 2016
In reply to Jon Read:

> I also understand the iphone battery lasts mere hours, rather than the week my phone can eek out -- a high priority for me.

Yes. My iphone lasts only 170 hours with prudent use (airplane mode on, gps active).

I don't disagree about the woeful mobile data coverage available in the UK however. A disgrace next to not only the Swiss/French/German etc, as you'd expect, but also Slovenia and points east.
 Robert Durran 11 Sep 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:
To be fair, it is reasonable to question whether two publicly funded mountain weather forecasts can be justified. If the met office were to adopt the good features of MWIS, I'm not sure there would be anything to complain about.
Post edited at 11:40
 jonnie3430 11 Sep 2016
In reply to Robert Durran:

That's at the back of my mind, if MWIS is closing, what is taking its place? I had heard that met office were expanding their mountain forecasts to cover, which makes sense.
 beh 11 Sep 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Having worked in many hostels, in both England and Scotland, MWIS was the default forecast we displayed each day and was suitably revered by most people who were heading out on the hills. The pdf is the perfect format.

Actually bumped into Geoff a few years ago staying in a SYHA hostel and he gave an impromptu talk/q&a to a handful of guests. I think the funding has been in doubt for many years and was only ever getting renewed on a ~yearly basis.

Would be interesting to know the usage stats for the MWIS site, that might be justification enough.
1
 zebidee 11 Sep 2016
In reply to jonnie3430:

> That's at the back of my mind, if MWIS is closing, what is taking its place? I had heard that met office were expanding their mountain forecasts to cover, which makes sense.

This was my immediate suspicion as well ... which makes me wonder if all the details and politics behind a decision that affects us are being properly exposed.
 Mark Bannan 11 Sep 2016
In reply to jonnie3430:

> That's at the back of my mind, if MWIS is closing, what is taking its place? I had heard that met office were expanding their mountain forecasts to cover, which makes sense.

Somehow I doubt if expansion of the Met Office forecast will be anything other than a poor substitute for MWIS.

M
 jonnie3430 11 Sep 2016
In reply to Mark Bannan:

And that's my fear, that anything that the met office provide will not be as good as mwis. It's easy to blow a reputation, it won't take much to demolish met office mountain forecast if they don't produce the goods.
 PPP 11 Sep 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

FYI...

>#MWIS update - Shaun Roberts, Principal at Glenmore Lodge has issued the following statement today:
"The mountaineering community is alive with social media statements and petitions regarding the MWIS, following a press release posted on the MWIS website: ‘Mountain safety at risk as key Government funding is withdrawn from crucial mountain weather information service’.
Over the past year MWIS has been directly involved in collaboration discussions with the Met Office and sportscotland. These discussions sought to find a resilient and development focussed structure to ensure the provision of reliable and authoritative mountain weather forecasts. I have been representing sportscotland throughout these discussions and would like to state that the claims made by Geoff Monk are disappointing and misleading. Geoff Monk, representing MWIS has had a very active role within these discussions and the lines of communications have always been open and remain so.
As a mountaineering community the provision of quality mountain weather forecasts has become a critical part of our risk awareness process before heading for the hills and mountains. Sportscotland has been investing in mountain weather provision since 2007 and avalanche forecast provision since 1988 and we are committed to ensuring continuity and enhancement of these forecast services.
I look forward to sharing more information with you regarding future developments and can confirm that sportscotland will ensure the provision of mountain weather forecasting as we enter this coming winter.
Given that the current social media traffic is being driven by misleading statements, I would appreciate it if you would circulate this email to colleagues and friends to help inform our community."


https://www.facebook.com/walkhighlands/posts/10154104842974118
 rif 11 Sep 2016
In reply to PPP:
Also a statement from Mountaineering Scotland (MCofS as was), as follows. The second-last paragraph is the key thing that I'm sure all of us who climb in the Highlands will agree on, whoever actually provides the service.
Rob F

"Mountaineering Scotland was influential in securing the original Scottish Government funding, provided through sportscotland, which secured regular provision of Scottish mountain forecasts produced by Geoff Monk since 2007. The agreement was for Scottish forecasts and has never applied to English and Welsh forecasts.

Prior to provision of funding, the forecasts had been produced daily by Geoff Monk free of charge for a number of years but together with many other organisations, we felt that this situation was unsustainable and that the forecasts were a major contribution to mountain safety, hence the need for government funding.

Until April 2016 we managed the contract with Geoff, following which sportscotland took that responsibility. Geoff had already indicated prior to April that he wished to reduce his level of activity and sportscotland had advised us they wished to see a sustainable solution which would ensure forecasts were not solely reliant on Geoff’s relatively limited resources and that would leave a lasting legacy when he eventually retired. That solution involved the Met Office and we have not been involved in any of the subsequent negotiations between Geoff, sportscotland and the Met Office.

A number of alternative mountain weather forecasts have been launched in recent years and are in use regularly by mountaineers and skiers, offering a choice and enabling comparison of forecasts.

MWIS is not the only option available to users but it offers unique features that have earned massive support in the mountaineering community and made it the number one choice.

Mountaineering Scotland wish to see continuity in the daily production of Scottish mountain weather forecasts, which are publicly funded, available free to users, and which provide at least the same range of forecast features as MWIS.

We believe there is an urgent need for the three parties to reconvene their dialogue to ensure that there is continuity, especially with the onset of winter and the critical need for mountaineers and skiers to be able to assess forecast conditions and plan their activities accordingly.

David Gibson, CEO"
2
 jonnie3430 11 Sep 2016
In reply to PPP:

Love it! Shaun Roberts makes a comment that mwis are disappointing and misleading, but doesn't say why, so the public are even more disappointed and mislead!
1
 beh 11 Sep 2016
I don't think the MWIS statement is particularly misleading whereas both the sportscotland and MCofS seem quite evasive. Not at all clear why the funding is being cut.

"A sustainable solution" would be assured funding for MWIS in the long term. It's perhaps relied heavily on Geoff because it's not easy to get new people in when the job might not exist the following year. Seems unfair to blame it on him for wanting to take a step back from things.
1
 PPP 11 Sep 2016
In reply to jonnie3430:

Yeah, it's like MWIS was "just like any other weather forecast service"...

I kinda hope MRT to step into this, MWIS was a service that was easy to understand whether you are an idiot going outside or not.
2
 beh 11 Sep 2016

http://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2016/09/11/forecast-gloomy-for-mountain-weather-information-service-as-funding-disappears

> Mr Monk, who has been a meteorologist all his life, said: “We don’t know the reasons sportscotland has withdrawn the funding.

> “All of a sudden, we knew from what was a very positive press release put out by the Met Office on 7 March saying we, sportscotland and the Met Office were going to work more closely together using the skills we have – presumably our skills in mountain weather forecasting – and suddenly we never heard any more.

> “All went quiet for a while. We’d been talking to the Met Office increasingly; we had a meeting in Manchester last October and a full day in Exeter in February which was a very positive day, and I think everybody concerned would have agreed with that, which was followed by that press release.

> “Then, I met with sportscotland on 22 April which was a funny meeting. Let’s just say sportscotland seemed to have gone a little bit cold. They seemed to be giving mixed signals.

> “I came back from Glasgow and then subsequently, when everything was quiet, I asked for another meeting. I went up to Glenmore Lodge, and met with them on 18 July and it was then that, after a little bit of beating about the bush, it was stated by sportscotland that they were collaborating with the Met Office; it’s too complicated to collaborate with three people.

> “It was really quite a shock. That was the bottom line. Following that meeting I wrote what I thought was a fairly detailed response, outlining where I felt we’d come from and just reviewing the conversation we’d had at Glenmore Lodge. I’d also been on the phone with the Met Office for an hour that afternoon. My final statement was an invitation to get back to negotiations.

> “I did make plain that, without my knowledge, the situation seemed to have changed.

> “The Met Office had described the planned collaboration in various terms. They described it as a roadmap; in other words, we were not quite sure where we were going to go: let’s collaborate on our skills and let’s see how we can work together.”

> He said he believed earlier in the year MWIS would be working with the Met Office to provide sportscotland with an improved service.

> “We started to have meetings. The culmination was: our skill was in weather forecasting; their contribution would be mainly adding on to the site which, incidentally one part of our proposal was to get the forecasts on to the other lodge sites, which made a lot of common sense, for sportscotland really to be a big part of MWIS. That was one of the big things really.

> “sportscotland was really looking to take ownership of MWIS in a positive way. They just moved away from that without any explanation; all the work I’d done with the Met Office, all of a sudden, sportscotland put nothing in writing.

> “The plan was that the MWIS forecasts would also appear on the Met Office sites; also appear on a Sportscotland website which would also include the Scottish Avalanche Information Service information. Together on that website would be some automated information supplied by the Met Office which would be things straight from a computer, like summit temperatures, wind speeds and such, which is not such high-quality information, but it’s good as an initial plan.”

> Mr Monk said finding alternative cash to run the service would not be easy. “It’s difficult to see where we could get alternative funding, though nothing is impossible.

> “I am aware a very small number have said, why not try crowdfunding or something like that. But you do that once. Is that really something that’s sustainable?”
Post edited at 19:30
 nniff 12 Sep 2016
In reply to rif:

>
> Mountaineering Scotland wish to see continuity in the daily production of Scottish mountain weather forecasts, which are publicly funded, available free to users, and which provide at least the same range of forecast features as MWIS.

> We believe there is an urgent need for the three parties to reconvene their dialogue to ensure that there is continuity.......


In the world of corporate and political double speak, there is the world of difference between 'wish to see continuity...' and 'There will be no break in service.....' It's like saying "We have no plans to ....(because we're too disorganised to plan anything/ hadn't thought of it, but now that you've brought the subject up...)"


Reading between the lines, one might think that this reads that they've dropped the ball, didn't realise that England and Wales were not funded and the MetOffice wants funding for the whole lot if they're going to do Scotland, and now there's no funding line for MWIS. And someone has probably said that they ought to get tenders for the service, but that's going to take them six months and winter will be over by then.

And then Geoff Monk will be able to put in a bid for Scotland alone, reduce his personal workload and so we have a rare old mess.


Now most of that is probably absolute nonsense, but if Sport Scotland puts out woolly comments, that's what they're going to get back. Trouble is, just because it's nonsense, it's not necessarily wrong either
 skog 12 Sep 2016
In reply to beh:

> “I am aware a very small number have said, why not try crowdfunding or something like that. But you do that once. Is that really something that’s sustainable?”

Patreon suggests it can be.

Before I sign anything, does anyone know much money we're actually talking about, anyway?

MWIS is a good service, and I'd willingly pay, say, £1 a month to help it keep going - but without knowing what it actually costs, I'm hesitant to put my name to a petition or to lobby my MSP requesting that it be paid..!
 drunken monkey 12 Sep 2016
In reply to skog:

Apparently MWIS costs £36k per year to fund.
 skog 12 Sep 2016
In reply to drunken monkey:

Thanks.

That seems good value, compared, for example, to the cost of a rescue!

Also, if need be, it seems possible to make that up through donations or subscriptions.
Wulfrunian 13 Sep 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

I hear the BBC have a spare £12M floating about, now that Bake Off has ****ed off to Channel 4. Perhaps the Great British Mountain Weather Forecast-Off, pitching MWIS against the Met Office et-al would be worth doing. Put it on Wednesday evening, 'cos telly is usually rubbish on a Wednesday. The contestants (Geoff from MWIS, that nice John Hammond from Countryfile etc.) do their forecasts for the mountain areas for the forthcoming week, interspersed with some innuendo from Melon Sue about wet, warm fronts, endless jokes about wind and some lovely drone footage of mountains. Replace the creepy, shiny Scouse bread bloke and the old lady in the wig with Bear Grylls and Sporty Spice and I reckon they'd be on to a winner. My idea, hands off.
OP Andy Hardy 13 Sep 2016
In reply to Wulfrunian:

The BBC probably can't afford Bear. I think he could be replaced with Ray Mears.
 buzby 14 Sep 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

looks like people power has won through, good news 3 years funding has been confirmed.

http://www.mwis.org.uk/
OP Andy Hardy 14 Sep 2016
In reply to buzby:

Excellent news.

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