/ Training when sore/ tired

Please Register as a New User in order to reply to this topic.
RM199 - on 15 Sep 2016
Hi all

I'm a 30 yr old climber who leads about HVS/ E1 or sport 6a+ etc.

I went bouldering inside Monday (the works approx 25 problems font 5 -5+) and have had sore forearms since. Both arms, though the left is worse as its weaker following years of holders elbow.

Tonight I went to the foundry to do rope routes. I did 10 but up to 6a+b but slightly below my max as I still had sore forearms.

Basically I'm trying to increase my training a bit but my body is protesting, do I A) push through, no pain no gain? B) carry on as I am with wall sessions when sore, but not to max, or C) rest entirely until not sore.

If C then any tips on recovery, because it can take 4-5 days to remove soreness after heavy bouldering (normally ok after 2 when I've done routes)

I do warm up a bit, and I'm doing execises for the holders elbow and a little bit of eccentrics

So basically how hard should I push?

(Aim is to lead E4 and sport 7a one day)

Thanks in advance

Rob
I like climbing - on 15 Sep 2016
In reply to RM199:

I think you may need to sort your warm up out. I also think you need to get some advice on your elbow and forearms. Once you've done that get some coaching and try and climb with stronger climbers as often as you can.
jsmcfarland - on 16 Sep 2016
In reply to RM199:

My usual thing is to rest until I feel roughly 75% not sore. My thought would be that if you are recovering completely between sessions then your body won't ever have to adapt and get stronger to deal with it, but obviously too much and your body is just playing catch-up with the damage you are inflicting on it and never getting stronger.

I think the consensus these days is shorter and more regular sessions will be better as you are never getting so deep in the 'dip' though someone will probably offer a contrary opinion so YMMV.

also, the 'no pain, no gain' thing is the most ridiculous thing that has ever existed, especially for climbing. Tendons just don't work like that. I spent an entire year over-training and 'pushing through the pain' when I was at 6a/+ trying to push my grade. Ended up with a bad case of tennis elbow in both arms which took me a year to get rid of. Once I started resting more, treating my body better (massaging with armaid, doing supplemental exercises, pushups etc) I got to climbing 7a fairly regularly within 18 months.

Lastly, what is your non-climbing life? If you are a bricklayer or something then that is just even more stress on those poor arms. Food for thought ;)
LakesWinter on 16 Sep 2016
In reply to RM199:

Post workout this is what I do, but that's not to say its perfect......
Stretch forearms post climbing holding stretch for 10 to 20 sec, do some push ups or dips right at the end of the session, have protein within an hour of finishing, I Ike a pint of choc nesquik myself or some fish. No booze for me on a training day as it interferes with my recovery, but then I am a bit old so....
Dandan82 - on 16 Sep 2016
In reply to RM199:

LakesWinter has some good advice, what you do after the session will have an impact on how sore your muscles get, so be sure to stretch out any problematic muscles and get some protein down you within a couple of hours of the session, ideally straight away.

Don't skimp on the warm up though, as it will also help avoid soreness and injury.

Just keep climbing regularly and not pushing it to your absolute limit too often and things should improve as your muscles and tendons get stronger.
zmv - on 16 Sep 2016
In reply to RM199:

Pretty much the best training tip I ever got was the following simple rule:
Training is simply causing microdamage in your muscles and tendons. They ONLY get stronger after recovery and repair. This happens normally after about 24-48 hours for muscles, maybe even 3 days after a hard bouldering session. Tendons take even a bit longer.
At this stage I recommend always having a rest day post sessions. Many people think that training is all about pulling on small edges as much as possible, in reality it's half the story as this work out will only pay off when your muscles are recovered. This process is called super compensation btw and widely used in many other sports but I only seem to see a handful of climbers discussing it.

Btw, if your body takes 4 days to recover, your sessions are I bet too intense or there is too much volume. I'd tune it down a bit until your recovery is about a day or two until about 90 %.

Good luck also, these are some excellent aspirations and I am sure you'll get there.
douwe - on 16 Sep 2016

> Btw, if your body takes 4 days to recover, your sessions are I bet too intense or there is too much volume. I'd tune it down a bit until your recovery is about a day or two until about 90 %.
+1

Tune down the intensity of your sessions so you're able to recover between sessions.

RM199 - on 16 Sep 2016
In reply to douwe:

Cheers for all the info guys.

A few extra things to mention.

Have seen a Physio a few times about elbows. The execises are from him not off my own back. Seems to allow me to continue at the same level fine, but I struggle to increase intensity.

Re warm up I tend to start gentle for a couple of routes then build up in a pyramid. Is this reasonable?

Re work, I do work in rope access so my body gets used abit, but not too rough these days.

Also the standard rope wall session is usually 2 days recovery (sounds like this is normal?) It's just the bouldering wall session that always crocks me. I often avoid this for that reason, but as a result I also think its what's holding me back.


Thanks again for the input. Cheers

Rob
Dandan82 - on 16 Sep 2016
In reply to RM199:


> Re warm up I tend to start gentle for a couple of routes then build up in a pyramid. Is this reasonable?

I'd do a pulse raiser before getting on the wall, jog a few laps of the car park or do some star jumps until you are out of breath, this will get the blood moving around before you pull on to the wall.
RockSteady on 16 Sep 2016
In reply to RM199:

Some good advice on warming up and eating above. I always try to eat or drink chocolate milk within an hour of finishing a training session which is supposed to help with recovery. Warming up I try to get the pulse going, and then move major climbing muscles in legs, arms and shoulders through their range of motion. Then start on easy routes and problems. Wouldn't try anything near my limit until about 45 minutes after starting. Massaging your forearms throughout a session is supposed to be helpful.

I think there are two elements to think about. Increasing volume of your climbing, and then pushing the intensity/trying harder grade routes and boulder problems.

One approach I find quite useful is doing a period where I try to build up how many problems/routes I ticked in a session, sticking well below my limit and not failing on anything due to difficulty, only tiredness. For these sessions I didn't mind training when sore. Then after a few weeks building up I switch to just doing two sessions a week with plenty of rest between them. In these sessions I try routes and problems 2 or 3 grades harder than my usual limit, and work on redpointing. Aim to be well rested and feeling fresh for those sessions so can really give it everything.



planetmarshall on 16 Sep 2016
In reply to RM199:

> Re warm up I tend to start gentle for a couple of routes then build up in a pyramid. Is this reasonable?

2-3 minutes skipping etc to raise the pulse, and about 20-30 minutes of easy ARC style training - your forearms should feel warm and no more.

Your pyramid follows that, then onto the main workout (which may well take less time than the warmup).

Training should be hard, and progressive - it's perfectly normal to feel tired and it's likely that during a training period you won't (and shouldn't) be able to perform to your maximum ability - this feeling should not persist over multiple days though - that's probably a sign that you're pushing too hard.
TonyB - on 16 Sep 2016
In reply to RM199:

Hi Rob,

Firstly your goals are very realistic. When I was 30 I was leading the same grades as you. When I was 30 and climbing 6a probably twice a week I had awful problem with tendonitis. I'm now 39, climb 7c, have mostly avoided injury and climb up to 5 times a week. I think the single most important thing for me was to increase the amount I climbed slowly over several years.

If you increase the volume that you climb, then don't increase the difficulty. If you increase the difficulty, do it very slowly and reduce the volume. If you increase the number of sessions, make one ore more of them at a lower level of intensity, so that the weekly volume doesn't increase dramatically. I think if you follow those rules, then you'll adapt much better and recover quicker.

I hope this is useful. I agree with the comments about reducing the intensity of your bouldering.

1poundSOCKS - on 16 Sep 2016
In reply to TonyB:

> If you increase the volume that you climb, then don't increase the difficulty. If you increase the difficulty, do it very slowly and reduce the volume. If you increase the number of sessions, make one ore more of them at a lower level of intensity, so that the weekly volume doesn't increase dramatically. I think if you follow those rules, then you'll adapt much better and recover quicker.

Also worth varying what you do. Don't try to get stronger all the time, work on other things, but try to maintain strength with the odd strength focused session. And don't forget to spend time actually training technique, not just trying hard.
Tyler - on 16 Sep 2016
In reply to RM199:
If you are trying to get fitter/stronger for climbing then you shouldn't really cut down on what you are doing now. As a 30 yr old you should be able to cope with what you described and if you stick with it you will adapt. Reduce it and things will stay the same. If you are determined to change then reduce the volume but increase the intensity, i.e. fewer, harder routes per session.
Post edited at 15:06
stp - on 19 Sep 2016
In reply to RM199:

DOMS or delayed onset muscle soreness, although not fully understood, usually occurs at the start of a training regime. So if this is the first time you trained that hard for a while it's no big surprise you've got sore forearms. It can take a while to subside, I think the maximum is meant to be five days.

Wait till the soreness is gone then keep up the training. The soreness will probably subside altogether after a few sessions.

Because climbing is so diverse in movement you might find you occasionally get sore somewhere else if repeated attempts on a problem work a muscle that's not used that much. Don't worry about it about too much, it's pretty normal.
ads.ukclimbing.com
BarrySW19 on 21 Sep 2016
In reply to zmv:

> Training is simply causing microdamage in your muscles and tendons. They ONLY get stronger after recovery and repair.

Well put - it's good to remember that training makes you weaker - it's during the recovery period that your body gets stronger.

Please Register as a New User in order to reply to this topic.