/ new groupset or just replace selected bits?

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gethin_allen on 19 Sep 2016
My 2010 trek road bike that I commute to work on is getting really ropey (knackered shifters, rear deraliur (SP?) cassette) so I'm thinking I shift the Tiagra 10 speed groupset from my good bike over to the commuter and buy a 105 11 speed groupset for the good bike.
The alternative is that I keep the old cranks, BBs, front mech and brakes on both bikes and just buy 105 shifters, rear mech, cassette, chain for the good bike and shuffle the tiagra parts to the old bike.
I have an old 10/11 speed rear wheel in the house so that's not a problem.

Anyone know would a 10 speed chain run on a 9 speed chainset, and same a 11 speed chain on a 10 speed chainset?
And same with front mechs, would a 9 speed front mech run ok with 10 speed chain and shifters?

The difference between buying the parts and the full groupset is ~£120. Is this worth the hassle or will it be a false economy?
gethin_allen on 19 Sep 2016
In reply to gethin_allen:

An addition to my queries above which it seems nobody knows.
When in the year do shimano release their new ranges?
Just wondering if there is a chance of getting any old season stuff if or when the new season stuff comes in.
nniff - on 20 Sep 2016
In reply to gethin_allen:

I was going to reply, but I'm not entirely sure of some of my ground here - but:

I'm pretty sure you can't put an 11 chain on a 10 ring and a 10 chain on a 9 ring because they're too thin.
Front mechs you're ok because you can adjust them.

If the cassette is knackered, the chain is likely to be worn too (a chain gauge is about £6)

You need to be sure that your 10 speed wheels can take an 11 speed cassette. Newer wheels take an 11 speed cassette with a spacer for a 10 speed cassette.

The safe bet is changing the groupsets, if your wheel is 11 speed compatible.
quirky - on 20 Sep 2016
In reply to gethin_allen:

11 speed will depend on you wheelset, if they are Mavics you will be fine. For the extra cost and faff it would be better to just change the whole groupset, Shimano's latest incarnation of 105 takes some beating and is well worth the money. Usually when stripping a bike you will find certain components that you thought were ok are actually way past their best, buying them separately afterwards is false economy. Some good deals out there on 105 if you look, Merlin had an offer on not so long ago, budget in for the correct tools too if you haven't got them already.
John Clinch (Ampthill) - on 20 Sep 2016
In reply to gethin_allen:

My memory was that thinner chain was fine. So 10 speed chain on 9 speed is fine. But not a 9 speed chain on 10 speed.

I think Tiagra is just as is. Revamped last year. I don't think its an annual cycle for groupsets. I'm not sure when 105 changed

In my experience of MTBs chain rings need doing at the same time as the chain and cassette. New cranks are often a good price compered to new rings.

When you move the Tiagra I think you have to move the whole drive train cassette, rings and chain as they wear out together. Before you start I'd want to be sure Tiagra has some real life in it left for commuting. Sora is currently being replaced so their is some very cheap stuff about. It might be most cost effective just to slap this on the commuter

BB wear out so might be worth changing. That only really leaves brakes doesn't it

I'd ask on Singletrackworld to be certain
RX-78 on 20 Sep 2016
In reply to gethin_allen:

I am a bit confused by what you mean by knackered shifters? do you mean the front and rear derailleurs or the controls on the handlebars? The shifters on the handlebars shouldn't be knackered unless due to crash damage? otherwise shifting performance is usually due to cable stretch and wear on the chain and cassettes (or just dirt blocking the action). A good clean plus new cable, chain and cassette + front chainrings should be all that's needed so you can keep the shifters and derailleurs. Unless of course you want to upgrade to 11 speed anyway?

Currently I am still running shifters from 2000 on my road bike, originally 9-speed but modified for 10-speed, these are old campagnolo record ;) so not sure of shimano, but have shimano on my MTB and these are fine too after many years service.
gethin_allen on 20 Sep 2016
In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):

> My memory was that thinner chain was fine. So 10 speed chain on 9 speed is fine. But not a 9 speed chain on 10 speed.

> I think Tiagra is just as is. Revamped last year. I don't think its an annual cycle for groupsets. I'm not sure when 105 changed

> In my experience of MTBs chain rings need doing at the same time as the chain and cassette. New cranks are often a good price compered to new rings.

> When you move the Tiagra I think you have to move the whole drive train cassette, rings and chain as they wear out together. Before you start I'd want to be sure Tiagra has some real life in it left for commuting. Sora is currently being replaced so their is some very cheap stuff about. It might be most cost effective just to slap this on the commuter

> BB wear out so might be worth changing. That only really leaves brakes doesn't it

Thanks for all this. The Tiagra groupset I'd looking to move is in pretty good condition, although 18 months old it's probably only done 700 miles because in the crap weather I seem to ride my commuter bike more than the better bike. I wanted to get 105 when I got the better bike but I had the classic budget related frame vs groupset compromise.

gethin_allen on 20 Sep 2016
In reply to RX-78:

> I am a bit confused by what you mean by knackered shifters?..

By shifters I mean the dual control brake levers/gear controls. They have taken a bit of a battering over the years, including a few crashes and they have started to sometimes drop more gears that selected and miss when changing up (lever moves fully but fails to engage the ratchets).
The rear dérailleur is also rather knackered with excessive sideways play in the pivots and when I changed the chain recently this identified that the cassette is a bit too worn to get away with (it's had about 3 chains in the last 2-3 years). So at a minimum I think it's shifters, cassette, rear mech+cables.
gethin_allen on 20 Sep 2016
In reply to nniff:

> If the cassette is knackered, the chain is likely to be worn too (a chain gauge is about £6)

This is how I identified the cassette issue, I changed the chain because they were really cheap and I needed to spend £5 to get free shipping worth £5 and now the chain skips around the middle of the cassette.
I bought a "brand X" (CRC own brand I think) chain checker and it's total crap, I compared it to a park tool and a rohloff equivalent in a bike shop and it was massively differernt.

Lion Bakes on 20 Sep 2016
In reply to gethin_allen:

> By shifters I mean the dual control brake levers/gear controls. They have taken a bit of a battering over the years, including a few crashes and they have started to sometimes drop more gears that selected and miss when changing up (lever moves fully but fails to engage the ratchets).

> The rear dérailleur is also rather knackered with excessive sideways play in the pivots and when I changed the chain recently this identified that the cassette is a bit too worn to get away with (it's had about 3 chains in the last 2-3 years). So at a minimum I think it's shifters, cassette, rear mech+cables.

Take the lever off the bars. You'll find a smaller bolt next to the bar clamp bolt, easy to miss at first glance. Tighten that up and the whole mech should get back in shape. That bolt holds the internals together and if loose the cogs don't mesh properly under pressure and you get the symptoms you describe.
L jesusevans - on 08:26 Sat
Thanks for the information...

radar - on 07:49 Sun

If one part of your drive train is excessively worn, the rest probably is too. Yes, I know a mantra put out by bike shops to sell more stuff, but my Ultegra equipped bike -skipping gears a bit, so i replaced chain and cassette (chain had stretched and cassette teeth were looking decidely shark like on my more used rings). All shifted fine on the work stand. First day riding was dreadful, managed about a mile. Chain was slipping, skipping. It was the chainring teeth. Somewhat bizarrely it was cheaper to buy a new chainset than to replace the chainrings.

Your question is it better to fix (replace a few bits) or replace (new groupset) - if your chainrings are worn, and your shifters are beyond a good clean and a lube (to get working properly again) then go for the groupset.

Groupset releases: Shimano tend to revamp Dura Ace about every 2-3 years, usually for a new innovation rather than just looks. Once this new innovation has settled down they roll it out down the groupset orders, so usually Ultegra and 105 get the new innovations, whilst the other groupsets catch up with the previous innovations a bit later.

As for groupset pricing versus individual parts -many companies that have own brand ranges often have groupset deals much cheaper than stores that only sell branded bike ranges. These groupsets are OEM kit, no different to none OEM kit, just different pricing structure for the retailer. Try Ribble, Dolan etc
Post edited at 07:57
TobyA on 09:04 Sun
In reply to gethin_allen:

Have you looked at the price of a similar on sale bike? My cx/commuter is getting to that stage where I want new, better brakes, the chain and chainset must need changing soon, and some lighter wheels would be good. Add all that up and Planet X have their rather similar looking London Road on sale this weekend for about the same!

I guess if you have a bike with an expensive frame then upgrading groupsets becomes realistic but when the frame is 200 quid on a bike well under a grand, you seem to get to the point where changing lots of components at once is no cheaper than a new bike.
gethin_allen on 21:04 Sun
In reply to TobyA:

> Have you looked at the price of a similar on sale bike? My cx/commuter is getting to that stage where I want new, better brakes, the chain and chainset must need changing soon, and some lighter wheels would be good. Add all that up and Planet X have their rather similar looking London Road on sale this weekend for about the same!

> I guess if you have a bike with an expensive frame then upgrading groupsets becomes realistic but when the frame is 200 quid on a bike well under a grand, you seem to get to the point where changing lots of components at once is no cheaper than a new bike.

I did think about this, and yes the planet-X london road would fit the bill for a commuter. Unfortunately I don't really have £650 ish to spare and it only comes with SRAM rival which I'm not certain about. I can find the £300 for a 105 group so I may just go for that.
TobyA on 21:35 Sun
In reply to gethin_allen:

105 on my now oldish road bike is still great, so if you're happy with your frame, that sounds the way to go. I've just been surprised at how often you hear about people buying with a view to upgrading components on their new bikes when the groupset seems to be a big proportion of the cost of a bike.

Good luck with the upgrades!
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gethin_allen on 21:50 Sun
In reply to TobyA:

Thanks Toby, The new group would obviously go on my nice bike and I'd be shuffling the slightly older tiagra onto the commuting bike.

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