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Hello
I bought a petzl william carabiner about 1 month ago and I have notice 2 scratches / nicks in line where the rope runs and also some ware / flattening. The carabiner cross section is not cylindrical its more squarish with a raised lip at the edge which has worn flat compared to the rest. You can definitely feel the scratches with your finger nail.
I only use this for belaying off my harness so where has this ware come from. I climb about 2/3 x week indoors and out.
My old 10 year + carabiner never showed this kind of ware or so i think.
The indoor wall i have recently started going to has some routes with very, very old top ropes, could there be lots of embedded metal in the ropes?
I'd attach a picture if i knew how.
Thanks
I bought a petzl william carabiner about 1 month ago and I have notice 2 scratches / nicks in line where the rope runs and also some ware / flattening. The carabiner cross section is not cylindrical its more squarish with a raised lip at the edge which has worn flat compared to the rest. You can definitely feel the scratches with your finger nail.
I only use this for belaying off my harness so where has this ware come from. I climb about 2/3 x week indoors and out.
My old 10 year + carabiner never showed this kind of ware or so i think.
The indoor wall i have recently started going to has some routes with very, very old top ropes, could there be lots of embedded metal in the ropes?
I'd attach a picture if i knew how.
Thanks
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In reply to Inhambane:
What belay device are you using? Some, such as the Edelrid Megajul, have a tendency to scratch biners quite quickly.
What belay device are you using? Some, such as the Edelrid Megajul, have a tendency to scratch biners quite quickly.
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In reply to Inhambane:
i'd guess belaying with dirty ropes is what's causing the increased wear. I've definitely noticed increased wear on my krabs/draws after using dirty ropes for a while
i'd guess belaying with dirty ropes is what's causing the increased wear. I've definitely noticed increased wear on my krabs/draws after using dirty ropes for a while
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In reply to whenry:
I have an ATC,
the ware and scratches are only where the rope makes contact with the carabiner.
I have an ATC,
the ware and scratches are only where the rope makes contact with the carabiner.
In reply to Inhambane:
Scratches and nicks are likely to be where the ATC has rattled against the carabiner in use, but keep an eye out for deep ones that may catch a thread on the rope. If it's just the anodise maybe don't worry? Rope wear on the anodise is to be expected, it's simply not tough enough to cope with the rope rubbing over it but isn't cause for concern.
My guess is your old carabiner wasn't anodised on the working surface and had a decade of rubbing to get it to a hard polish so marks aren't likely to show up. If you look at it real closely in the light you might be able to see a change in the cross sectional radius where the rope ran.
Edit for another thought: Might be a softer (lighter) alloy on the newer one, resulting in apparently faster wear.
Scratches and nicks are likely to be where the ATC has rattled against the carabiner in use, but keep an eye out for deep ones that may catch a thread on the rope. If it's just the anodise maybe don't worry? Rope wear on the anodise is to be expected, it's simply not tough enough to cope with the rope rubbing over it but isn't cause for concern.
My guess is your old carabiner wasn't anodised on the working surface and had a decade of rubbing to get it to a hard polish so marks aren't likely to show up. If you look at it real closely in the light you might be able to see a change in the cross sectional radius where the rope ran.
Edit for another thought: Might be a softer (lighter) alloy on the newer one, resulting in apparently faster wear.
Post edited at 10:40
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In reply to Inhambane:
ATCs are unlikely to scratch a biner significantly - it sounds like dirty ropes are the most likely cause.
ATCs are unlikely to scratch a biner significantly - it sounds like dirty ropes are the most likely cause.
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In reply to Inhambane:
As a counter example, I belay with a Petzl William that's easily six years old and has nothing but shiny spots where the rope runs.
I use it with a Petzl Reverso 3 outside and a bog-standard ATC tube inside - both of the same age. It has been carried over all kinds of terrain, used on glaciers and with old Alpine ropes ingrained with glacial grit, and ground into the rock of countless chimneys while hanging off my harness.
The thread of the locking sleeve squeaks a bit.
As a counter example, I belay with a Petzl William that's easily six years old and has nothing but shiny spots where the rope runs.
I use it with a Petzl Reverso 3 outside and a bog-standard ATC tube inside - both of the same age. It has been carried over all kinds of terrain, used on glaciers and with old Alpine ropes ingrained with glacial grit, and ground into the rock of countless chimneys while hanging off my harness.
The thread of the locking sleeve squeaks a bit.
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In reply to Inhambane:
lets see if this link works
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8ZKBtC7YG2paFhabnBJaUhLRlk/view?usp=shari...
lets see if this link works
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8ZKBtC7YG2paFhabnBJaUhLRlk/view?usp=shari...
In reply to Inhambane:
I think you'd be better putting a picture of the actual karabiner you're using.
I think you'd be better putting a picture of the actual karabiner you're using.
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In reply to Inhambane:
That is exactly where I'd expect to see wear on a krab that had been used with a belay device. Why is this causing you concern?
> lets see if this link works
That is exactly where I'd expect to see wear on a krab that had been used with a belay device. Why is this causing you concern?
In reply to Inhambane:
Depending on the process the anodised layer would be no more than 0.02mm thick, probably significantly less.
Depending on the process the anodised layer would be no more than 0.02mm thick, probably significantly less.
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In reply to Inhambane:
Are you sure the flat spot is new? I'm not familiar with the William but lots of modern HMS krabs have a modified profile forged into the rope contact region to modify the bearing radius, this will stand out with defined visible edges once the dyed surface is worn through.
Dirty ropes do increase wear rates. The abrasive is usually embedded grit/dust rather than metal.
Burnish the scratches by rubbing over them with a smooth hard piece of metal (fork handle etc) if they bother you.
Personally I'd not worry about it.
jk
Are you sure the flat spot is new? I'm not familiar with the William but lots of modern HMS krabs have a modified profile forged into the rope contact region to modify the bearing radius, this will stand out with defined visible edges once the dyed surface is worn through.
Dirty ropes do increase wear rates. The abrasive is usually embedded grit/dust rather than metal.
Burnish the scratches by rubbing over them with a smooth hard piece of metal (fork handle etc) if they bother you.
Personally I'd not worry about it.
jk
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In reply to Inhambane:
Actual photos
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8ZKBtC7YG2pQVlhTjJXblhtYU0/view?usp=drive...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8ZKBtC7YG2pQXI5NmxRMnlLQ2c/view?usp=drive...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8ZKBtC7YG2pNVpHRFhOazFTa28/view?usp=drive...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8ZKBtC7YG2pZE8zVGJYYlg4N0U/view?usp=drive...
Actual photos
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8ZKBtC7YG2pQVlhTjJXblhtYU0/view?usp=drive...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8ZKBtC7YG2pQXI5NmxRMnlLQ2c/view?usp=drive...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8ZKBtC7YG2pNVpHRFhOazFTa28/view?usp=drive...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8ZKBtC7YG2pZE8zVGJYYlg4N0U/view?usp=drive...
In reply to Inhambane:
Woah, are you sure you haven't been taking an angle grinder to it? That's crazy for a months worth of use...
Woah, are you sure you haven't been taking an angle grinder to it? That's crazy for a months worth of use...
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In reply to Inhambane:
You've only ever used that for belaying from the harness with an ATC in normal, not in guide mode, never as a top rope belay krab nor on bolts/wires/fixed belay? It's been used what, 12 times, 50 routes? Where did you buy it?
The wear probably looks worse than it is given you've cut through dark dye into bright metal but something does seem a bit off.
edit: do you do anything odd with it like clipping it through your leg and waist loop rather than the belay loop?
jk
You've only ever used that for belaying from the harness with an ATC in normal, not in guide mode, never as a top rope belay krab nor on bolts/wires/fixed belay? It's been used what, 12 times, 50 routes? Where did you buy it?
The wear probably looks worse than it is given you've cut through dark dye into bright metal but something does seem a bit off.
edit: do you do anything odd with it like clipping it through your leg and waist loop rather than the belay loop?
jk
Post edited at 13:29
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In reply to Inhambane:
This certainly seems excessive for such little use, where did you buy this carabiner? there was a case a while back regarding counterfeit petzl gear purchased from E-bay.
This certainly seems excessive for such little use, where did you buy this carabiner? there was a case a while back regarding counterfeit petzl gear purchased from E-bay.
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In reply to Inhambane:
Might be helpful if you were also to post a photo of it attached to your harness, with a belay device, in the manner that you normally use it for belaying? I particularly can't see how the groove at the top would be work during normal use.
Might be helpful if you were also to post a photo of it attached to your harness, with a belay device, in the manner that you normally use it for belaying? I particularly can't see how the groove at the top would be work during normal use.
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In reply to jkarran:
I've only ever used it for belaying off my belay loop on my harness. I like to have a dedicated belay carabineer that's used for nothing else. Never used guide mode.
I got it on the 10th of august (7 weeks) I climb indoors once week and outdoors 1-2 a week , maybe 70ish routes in total.
Bought online from REI
I've only ever used it for belaying off my belay loop on my harness. I like to have a dedicated belay carabineer that's used for nothing else. Never used guide mode.
I got it on the 10th of august (7 weeks) I climb indoors once week and outdoors 1-2 a week , maybe 70ish routes in total.
Bought online from REI
In reply to Inhambane:
I bought a pair of william scregates back in June, and one has worn just as badly as yours under what I would consider normal use. None of my ropes are particulartry old or dirty, I have just put it down to 'soft' alloy and some considerable use, interesting to see someone else has the same sort of issue. The other one in the pair has had the same sort of use but isn't showing it as obviously.
I bought a pair of william scregates back in June, and one has worn just as badly as yours under what I would consider normal use. None of my ropes are particulartry old or dirty, I have just put it down to 'soft' alloy and some considerable use, interesting to see someone else has the same sort of issue. The other one in the pair has had the same sort of use but isn't showing it as obviously.
Post edited at 21:16
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In reply to LJC:
You are onto something! I've got a couple Petzl Attache 3D which were worn faster than usual when used for belaying and abseiling (with a Reverso). No scratches as for the OP, but soft and deep grooves showed in less than a seasons use. The same goes for the Reverso's. The grooves wear out pretty fast.
A couple of years ago I switched to a DMM Rhino for my Reverso and apparently it is made from a more abrasion resistant alloy. Only the anodisation has disappeared and no tangible grooves.
I wonder if Petzl use softer alloys in general?
> I have just put it down to 'soft' alloy
You are onto something! I've got a couple Petzl Attache 3D which were worn faster than usual when used for belaying and abseiling (with a Reverso). No scratches as for the OP, but soft and deep grooves showed in less than a seasons use. The same goes for the Reverso's. The grooves wear out pretty fast.
A couple of years ago I switched to a DMM Rhino for my Reverso and apparently it is made from a more abrasion resistant alloy. Only the anodisation has disappeared and no tangible grooves.
I wonder if Petzl use softer alloys in general?
1
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In reply to Inhambane:
that looks totally unacceptable wear for a belay crab, looks more like a sport climbing crab that's seen heavy bolt use.
I propose the very best thing to do now is get a new belay crab ASAP and either send that back to petzl or take a hacksaw to it to prevent it accidentally being used.
I've a KONG HMS that is 15 years old and has seen everything possible thrown at it and it looks better Nick than yours.
that looks totally unacceptable wear for a belay crab, looks more like a sport climbing crab that's seen heavy bolt use.
I propose the very best thing to do now is get a new belay crab ASAP and either send that back to petzl or take a hacksaw to it to prevent it accidentally being used.
I've a KONG HMS that is 15 years old and has seen everything possible thrown at it and it looks better Nick than yours.
3
In reply to Inhambane:
reading this article, the testers consider the William a master point crab in an anchor rather than a belay crab, I don't know the reliability of the website though
http://m.outdoorgearlab.com/Locking-Carabiner-Reviews/Petzl-William
I also found the William is subject to a recall by petzl but that is concerning the ball locking ones and the ball mechanism, not wear.
do you think there is any possibility of it being a fake? have you any other petzl products to compare the markings? I hope you find an answer to this, this is quite worrying.
reading this article, the testers consider the William a master point crab in an anchor rather than a belay crab, I don't know the reliability of the website though
http://m.outdoorgearlab.com/Locking-Carabiner-Reviews/Petzl-William
I also found the William is subject to a recall by petzl but that is concerning the ball locking ones and the ball mechanism, not wear.
do you think there is any possibility of it being a fake? have you any other petzl products to compare the markings? I hope you find an answer to this, this is quite worrying.
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In reply to wilkie14c:
I don't have any other carabineers by petzal to compare it with. I bought from REI online so I doubt it could be fake. It's a screw gate so wouldn't be subject to recall. I have emailed petzl so let's see what they say.
I don't have any other carabineers by petzal to compare it with. I bought from REI online so I doubt it could be fake. It's a screw gate so wouldn't be subject to recall. I have emailed petzl so let's see what they say.
In reply to Inhambane:
please share whatever comes back from petzl, think we all have something of theirs and failures like yours are very rare.
please share whatever comes back from petzl, think we all have something of theirs and failures like yours are very rare.
1
In reply to Inhambane:
In which case its condition is unusual. I've got kit that has more like 7k routes on it than 70 and much worse abuse that that. Aside from overall patina it doesn't look any worse than yours. It's the 'scratches' that seem most odd to me.
The pronounced groove in the spine of the rope bearing area is presumably just related to how it sits in your belay plate. I'd assumed it may have been used as a top rope belay at some point levered over an edge so much of the live rope pressure comes to bear on the relatively tight radius at the krab's spine.
Do let us know what you get back from Petzl because it certainly seems unusual.
jk
> I've only ever used it for belaying off my belay loop on my harness. I like to have a dedicated belay carabineer that's used for nothing else. Never used guide mode.
> I got it on the 10th of august (7 weeks) I climb indoors once week and outdoors 1-2 a week , maybe 70ish routes in total.
> I got it on the 10th of august (7 weeks) I climb indoors once week and outdoors 1-2 a week , maybe 70ish routes in total.
In which case its condition is unusual. I've got kit that has more like 7k routes on it than 70 and much worse abuse that that. Aside from overall patina it doesn't look any worse than yours. It's the 'scratches' that seem most odd to me.
The pronounced groove in the spine of the rope bearing area is presumably just related to how it sits in your belay plate. I'd assumed it may have been used as a top rope belay at some point levered over an edge so much of the live rope pressure comes to bear on the relatively tight radius at the krab's spine.
Do let us know what you get back from Petzl because it certainly seems unusual.
jk
Post edited at 10:06
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In reply to Inhambane:
I don't think it's defective. I've also noticed that the Petzl reverso alloy is really soft. I've retired two after they started chafing at the rope on absail where opposite edge to the teeth had worn sharp. I've not had this problem on black diamond or dmm belay plates so I assume it's something to do with the metal used.
I had just put it down to use, and wasn't too bothered, as I consider all my gear expendable and I don't mind replacing it. Seeing your wear which is exactly the same, I will email Petzl as well and see what they say.
In reply to whoever said that the William is a 'master point' crab, I think this is misleading. All carabiners with a round back bar (i.e. Not small D shaped one) should be fine to belay off, and designers should expect moving ropes to be put across them. I think the review is more suggesting that it's good for a master point due to the size and ability to take multiple clove hitches, and that the bulk and weight don't make it ideal for belaying off. I actually disagree as I think the size is perfect to make tying off a belay plate easy, when using half ropes.
I don't think it's defective. I've also noticed that the Petzl reverso alloy is really soft. I've retired two after they started chafing at the rope on absail where opposite edge to the teeth had worn sharp. I've not had this problem on black diamond or dmm belay plates so I assume it's something to do with the metal used.
I had just put it down to use, and wasn't too bothered, as I consider all my gear expendable and I don't mind replacing it. Seeing your wear which is exactly the same, I will email Petzl as well and see what they say.
In reply to whoever said that the William is a 'master point' crab, I think this is misleading. All carabiners with a round back bar (i.e. Not small D shaped one) should be fine to belay off, and designers should expect moving ropes to be put across them. I think the review is more suggesting that it's good for a master point due to the size and ability to take multiple clove hitches, and that the bulk and weight don't make it ideal for belaying off. I actually disagree as I think the size is perfect to make tying off a belay plate easy, when using half ropes.
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In reply to Inhambane:
As long as the very small gouges are not sharp, it is almost certainly not dangerous yet (and probably not until much more metal has been removed), but it is a bit fast-wearing.
As long as the very small gouges are not sharp, it is almost certainly not dangerous yet (and probably not until much more metal has been removed), but it is a bit fast-wearing.
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In reply to jkarran:
Still no full reply from petzl after 3 emails.
they have only asked for pictures.
Still no full reply from petzl after 3 emails.
they have only asked for pictures.
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In reply to Inhambane:
Contact Lyon Outdoors, the UK importers for Petzl.
edit: actually, just contact the shop you bought it from since they are the retailer you had a contract with...
Contact Lyon Outdoors, the UK importers for Petzl.
edit: actually, just contact the shop you bought it from since they are the retailer you had a contract with...
Post edited at 17:36
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In reply to andrewmcleod:
The O.P. states up-thread that it was bought on-line from REI, which is based in the U.S. so not really the concern of Lyon Outdoors, and since the O.P.'s profile states he's in Mozmbique (although that hasn't been updated in a while) perhaps it is easier to contact Petzl directly.
> Contact Lyon Outdoors, the UK importers for Petzl.
> edit: actually, just contact the shop you bought it from since they are the retailer you had a contract with...
The O.P. states up-thread that it was bought on-line from REI, which is based in the U.S. so not really the concern of Lyon Outdoors, and since the O.P.'s profile states he's in Mozmbique (although that hasn't been updated in a while) perhaps it is easier to contact Petzl directly.
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In reply to andrewmcleod:
I did contact petzl on the 24th of September and after 2 days got reply just saying send more pictures.
then after numerous requests for updates i got a response today saying.
"We know this type of wear, this is the result of a use in a dusty environment. This wear does not affect the safety of the product. You can still use it.. Do you have the opportunity to send it to France ?"
the suspension punctuation was in the actual email.
TBH they have been a bit slow in replying when it concerns safety.
I did contact petzl on the 24th of September and after 2 days got reply just saying send more pictures.
then after numerous requests for updates i got a response today saying.
"We know this type of wear, this is the result of a use in a dusty environment. This wear does not affect the safety of the product. You can still use it.. Do you have the opportunity to send it to France ?"
the suspension punctuation was in the actual email.
TBH they have been a bit slow in replying when it concerns safety.
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