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My first aid kits need a good clear out and restock. Anyone want to make any recommendations for stuff that is useful that might not be obvious? Where is the best place to get stuff?
Before anyone says it, I do have a valid 16 hour outdoor first aid certificate.
One totally random thing I might add to the walking one is a bag of dog treats, to keep the dog occupied if I do have to deal with something! He attended the last first aid course (but did not get a certificate) and the trainer made good use of him as a distraction to make the real life scenarios harder.
I also want to include stuff for minor injuries as well as actual first aid. The kits are primarily for me and my family, not in a work context, so I am happy to include non HSE stuff.
I want 1 household box,
1 large walking/ general bag that can live in the car when not in use,
1 small pocket size one
1 waterproof kayaking kit.
I already have the bags.
Before anyone says it, I do have a valid 16 hour outdoor first aid certificate.
One totally random thing I might add to the walking one is a bag of dog treats, to keep the dog occupied if I do have to deal with something! He attended the last first aid course (but did not get a certificate) and the trainer made good use of him as a distraction to make the real life scenarios harder.
I also want to include stuff for minor injuries as well as actual first aid. The kits are primarily for me and my family, not in a work context, so I am happy to include non HSE stuff.
I want 1 household box,
1 large walking/ general bag that can live in the car when not in use,
1 small pocket size one
1 waterproof kayaking kit.
I already have the bags.
1
In reply to marsbar:
A bolt gun, for when the humane thing to do is put the casualty out of their misery... or if you happen to be the first responder and find the injured party is Nigel Farage.
A bolt gun, for when the humane thing to do is put the casualty out of their misery... or if you happen to be the first responder and find the injured party is Nigel Farage.
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In reply to EddInaBox:
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01630/coming-out-of-wrec_163093... ....if only
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01630/coming-out-of-wrec_163093... ....if only
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In reply to marsbar:
I have a very small one and I'll show it to you...
Round nosed scissors to access a wound easily and to make sling or bandage from clothing.
Several small safety pins.
Pair plastic gloves.
One sterile dressing.
Short strip of cut to size plaster.
1200mg Ibuprofen.
120mg Codeine Phosphate.
All wrapped in cling film it's small enough to go into the credit card slot of my wallet. Pain killers are there for if you break your leg in the mountains and have to wait ages,
I have a very small one and I'll show it to you...
Round nosed scissors to access a wound easily and to make sling or bandage from clothing.
Several small safety pins.
Pair plastic gloves.
One sterile dressing.
Short strip of cut to size plaster.
1200mg Ibuprofen.
120mg Codeine Phosphate.
All wrapped in cling film it's small enough to go into the credit card slot of my wallet. Pain killers are there for if you break your leg in the mountains and have to wait ages,
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In reply to EddInaBox:
What if he is still capable of crawling? Best include one of these:
http://www.accuracyinternational.com/ax50-rifle-systems/
> A bolt gun, for when the humane thing to do is put the casualty out of their misery... or if you happen to be the first responder and find the injured party is Nigel Farage.
What if he is still capable of crawling? Best include one of these:
http://www.accuracyinternational.com/ax50-rifle-systems/
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In reply to marsbar:
I have made a recent inclusion to my first aid kit - tick removing tools. So the kit now consists of:
strappall tape
tick removing tool
I have made a recent inclusion to my first aid kit - tick removing tools. So the kit now consists of:
strappall tape
tick removing tool
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In reply to marsbar:
Gaffer tape and analgesia, tuff cut scissors.
Oh and a SAM splint.
I also carry the usual assortment of minor injury bits, plus a bit of glucose, IMHO the best thing to carry is the knowledge you have. That means you are highly likely to make the right call at the right time about when to ask for help, also you really, already, know what to carry as a basic. In my experience some one with knowledge but little kit can do more than someone with a well stocked first aid kit but no knowledge.
Gaffer tape and analgesia, tuff cut scissors.
Oh and a SAM splint.
I also carry the usual assortment of minor injury bits, plus a bit of glucose, IMHO the best thing to carry is the knowledge you have. That means you are highly likely to make the right call at the right time about when to ask for help, also you really, already, know what to carry as a basic. In my experience some one with knowledge but little kit can do more than someone with a well stocked first aid kit but no knowledge.
Post edited at 08:01
In reply to marsbar:
Two useful things I've added to my first aid kit are tweezers for getting thorns and other prickly things out, and quite recently a tick remover.
Two useful things I've added to my first aid kit are tweezers for getting thorns and other prickly things out, and quite recently a tick remover.
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In reply to marsbar:
The Lifesystems kits are pretty good with a few additions (more plasters, a few more OTC medications, some vetwrap or cohesive bandage) and the cases are fairly robust. I've used the Mountain and Mountain Leader kits for years in various guises and still find them more useful than others on the market.
The Lifesystems kits are pretty good with a few additions (more plasters, a few more OTC medications, some vetwrap or cohesive bandage) and the cases are fairly robust. I've used the Mountain and Mountain Leader kits for years in various guises and still find them more useful than others on the market.
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In reply to Baron Weasel:
I'll raise you a smaller one:
Cling film.
Silver foil blanket.
Phone for the helicopter.
Maybe some painkillers if you really want to bulk it out.
If you can't fix it with that, you're either outside the scope of a 15 hour first aid course or trying to do too much.
I'll raise you a smaller one:
Cling film.
Silver foil blanket.
Phone for the helicopter.
Maybe some painkillers if you really want to bulk it out.
If you can't fix it with that, you're either outside the scope of a 15 hour first aid course or trying to do too much.
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In reply to marsbar:
Hypafix tape and mepore type dressing pads replace plasters and zinc oxide tape in all my first aid kits and especially at home I always have decent sized rolls of different width tape and lots of dressings. It's what they stick on you if you go to hospital for something and it stays stuck (even when wet). I had to dress my big toe when I was a kid for about a year and hypafix was the only thing that didn't come unstuck in my socks. You can get mepore dressings with the tape already attached.
Outside kits can be quite small, duct tape, cling film, pencil/paper (cut down pencil and 4 squares of wproof paper) and a spare torch are all essentials imo. A pair of scissors and gloves are hard to improvise and I usually take a pair of mini tweezers, a few alcohol swabs (like the pre injection ones), a couple of self adhesive mepore dressings, a bit of spare tape, a medium ambulance dressing and a conforming bandage. You can get bandages that self stick and roll up to the size of a film canister these days and weigh about 20 grammes (or you can rip your buff up like rambo, either work). A lot of people take painkillers and in the summer, anti-histamines. I don't take a bothy bag but if you're in trouble that's probably the one bit of kit you'll apreciate over all else, in a group then it's probably worth carrying.
I always add in a small first aid reminder card as well and in my outdoors kit a self written reference card with all the things the mountain rescue ask you, i.e. size of group, name, age of casualty, location etc. etc. When your heads spinning it helps to just read things out (you remembered the pencil and paper?) and if your phone battery is low the quicker and more prepared you can be the better. In the winter some kind of shelter (I take a small bivi) and a belay jacket probably span into the first aid category,
Excluding an extra torch and belay jacket my outdoors kit is about the same weight and size as a a large sock rolled up which I'm happy with and it all goes into two ziplock food bags (one inside the other). I'm sure you can make do with less but having had to bandage up my friends head while he was out cold and loosing blood in the middle of nowhere I'm happy to carry extra stuff so that if the shit actually hits the fan you have what you need. Fumbling with the crap they put in pre-made 1st aid kits and improvising bandages from clothes and skimpy dressings when you're stressed is easily avoidable with a small amount of extra weight.
In the car I have a few big absobant dressings (can't remember what they're called, they're blue and about 9" long), a burn kit and eye wash along with all the usual stuff and extra's you probably wont need like a face guard and big scissors.
Hypafix tape and mepore type dressing pads replace plasters and zinc oxide tape in all my first aid kits and especially at home I always have decent sized rolls of different width tape and lots of dressings. It's what they stick on you if you go to hospital for something and it stays stuck (even when wet). I had to dress my big toe when I was a kid for about a year and hypafix was the only thing that didn't come unstuck in my socks. You can get mepore dressings with the tape already attached.
Outside kits can be quite small, duct tape, cling film, pencil/paper (cut down pencil and 4 squares of wproof paper) and a spare torch are all essentials imo. A pair of scissors and gloves are hard to improvise and I usually take a pair of mini tweezers, a few alcohol swabs (like the pre injection ones), a couple of self adhesive mepore dressings, a bit of spare tape, a medium ambulance dressing and a conforming bandage. You can get bandages that self stick and roll up to the size of a film canister these days and weigh about 20 grammes (or you can rip your buff up like rambo, either work). A lot of people take painkillers and in the summer, anti-histamines. I don't take a bothy bag but if you're in trouble that's probably the one bit of kit you'll apreciate over all else, in a group then it's probably worth carrying.
I always add in a small first aid reminder card as well and in my outdoors kit a self written reference card with all the things the mountain rescue ask you, i.e. size of group, name, age of casualty, location etc. etc. When your heads spinning it helps to just read things out (you remembered the pencil and paper?) and if your phone battery is low the quicker and more prepared you can be the better. In the winter some kind of shelter (I take a small bivi) and a belay jacket probably span into the first aid category,
Excluding an extra torch and belay jacket my outdoors kit is about the same weight and size as a a large sock rolled up which I'm happy with and it all goes into two ziplock food bags (one inside the other). I'm sure you can make do with less but having had to bandage up my friends head while he was out cold and loosing blood in the middle of nowhere I'm happy to carry extra stuff so that if the shit actually hits the fan you have what you need. Fumbling with the crap they put in pre-made 1st aid kits and improvising bandages from clothes and skimpy dressings when you're stressed is easily avoidable with a small amount of extra weight.
In the car I have a few big absobant dressings (can't remember what they're called, they're blue and about 9" long), a burn kit and eye wash along with all the usual stuff and extra's you probably wont need like a face guard and big scissors.
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In reply to marsbar:
Scalpel, two liters of iodine, bin bag....
More seriously, one roll of inelastic tape, one sterile wound dressing, emergency blanket, pain killers / NSAIDs (Diclofenac) for standard alpine trips.
For longer trips away from civilization I will add a forceps, scissors and file to deal with damaged toenails, wound disinfectant, rehydration mix (Glucose/salt) and Immodium to deal with diarrhea (summer trips only), a broad spectrum antibiotic and in winter antibacterial throat lozenges.
CB
Scalpel, two liters of iodine, bin bag....
More seriously, one roll of inelastic tape, one sterile wound dressing, emergency blanket, pain killers / NSAIDs (Diclofenac) for standard alpine trips.
For longer trips away from civilization I will add a forceps, scissors and file to deal with damaged toenails, wound disinfectant, rehydration mix (Glucose/salt) and Immodium to deal with diarrhea (summer trips only), a broad spectrum antibiotic and in winter antibacterial throat lozenges.
CB
In reply to marsbar:
I had to put together a basic kit for my Scouts this week for them to use on their Expedition Challenge. All small items are sealed inside small ziplock bags, inside the main kit sack.
Exped 1st aid dry bag.
Plasters and micropore tape.
Non-adherent dressing.
2x small bandage dressings
1x medium
1 x large
1x triangular bandage & safety pins
Antiseptic wipes
Considering they'll never be more than 30mins away from a leader armed with a Lifesystems mountain kit and have constant radio contact, that should be fine for them.
I had to put together a basic kit for my Scouts this week for them to use on their Expedition Challenge. All small items are sealed inside small ziplock bags, inside the main kit sack.
Exped 1st aid dry bag.
Plasters and micropore tape.
Non-adherent dressing.
2x small bandage dressings
1x medium
1 x large
1x triangular bandage & safety pins
Antiseptic wipes
Considering they'll never be more than 30mins away from a leader armed with a Lifesystems mountain kit and have constant radio contact, that should be fine for them.
In reply to ianstevens:
Agreed. I carry nothing because it's not worth it. I don't have the knowledge to do real first aid, stuff like draining a lung or a tracheostomy and the stuff I do know how to do is just about being a bit more comfortable. A plaster, a bandage, some cream etc. I do carry a phone, know the basics about airway, chest compressions etc.
I climbed with lads that do pre hospital trauma for a living so I'm OK.
First aid is a crap term and there nothing worse that a"first aider" pretending they know what they're doing.
Agreed. I carry nothing because it's not worth it. I don't have the knowledge to do real first aid, stuff like draining a lung or a tracheostomy and the stuff I do know how to do is just about being a bit more comfortable. A plaster, a bandage, some cream etc. I do carry a phone, know the basics about airway, chest compressions etc.
I climbed with lads that do pre hospital trauma for a living so I'm OK.
First aid is a crap term and there nothing worse that a"first aider" pretending they know what they're doing.
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In reply to marsbar:
In my small one I have tuff cuts and a tourniquet in mine (and a few other bits...)
The tourniquet is the one bit of truly Lifesaving equipment I have in this but it is unlikely to be covered in a 16 h first aid course.
If you are trained in its use then a cat tourniquet from sp services is what you want.
The face shield is to protect me. Everything else is largely promote recovery
In my small one I have tuff cuts and a tourniquet in mine (and a few other bits...)
The tourniquet is the one bit of truly Lifesaving equipment I have in this but it is unlikely to be covered in a 16 h first aid course.
If you are trained in its use then a cat tourniquet from sp services is what you want.
The face shield is to protect me. Everything else is largely promote recovery
In reply to jimjimjim:
I have been in situations that have proved having it and not needing it, is better than needing it and not having it.
"Real first aid" could be as simple as Recovery position and getting professional medical help.
And what happens when you climb without them, or people that don't know such people.
No it's not. It literally means, the first person there to give aid. It's not all about basic life support, although in those situations then you are just a link in the chain of survival and you are just keeping them alive until professional help arrives. It's not about cracking a field hospital and smashing on with reattaching limbs.
I do agree on that last point. Usually find its first aid instructors who think they are some sort of Gucci EMT.
It's best to keep it simple though, I have 3 kits I usually take. A small Clipbox of gloves, wipes, steristrips, safety pins, zinc oxide tap, a triangular bandage, competed and a few small gauze.
I slightly bigger set that is more like you off the shelf type. But more in depth stuff. Couple of J tubes, Etc I usually throw stuff in my rucksack with it if I know what activity I am doing, SAM splint and pelvic splint.
And I keep a General Purpose Trauma bag in my car. Quite in depth.
Above all, it's best to get some training and proficiency rather than Gucci gear. Good idea
About the dog biscuits though.
> Agreed. I carry nothing because it's not worth it. I don't have the knowledge to do real first aid, stuff like draining a lung or a tracheostomy and the stuff I do know how to do is just about being a bit more comfortable. A plaster, a bandage, some cream etc. I do carry a phone, know the basics about airway, chest compressions etc.
I have been in situations that have proved having it and not needing it, is better than needing it and not having it.
"Real first aid" could be as simple as Recovery position and getting professional medical help.
> I climbed with lads that do pre hospital trauma for a living so I'm OK.
And what happens when you climb without them, or people that don't know such people.
> First aid is a crap term and there nothing worse that a"first aider" pretending they know what they're doing.
No it's not. It literally means, the first person there to give aid. It's not all about basic life support, although in those situations then you are just a link in the chain of survival and you are just keeping them alive until professional help arrives. It's not about cracking a field hospital and smashing on with reattaching limbs.
I do agree on that last point. Usually find its first aid instructors who think they are some sort of Gucci EMT.
It's best to keep it simple though, I have 3 kits I usually take. A small Clipbox of gloves, wipes, steristrips, safety pins, zinc oxide tap, a triangular bandage, competed and a few small gauze.
I slightly bigger set that is more like you off the shelf type. But more in depth stuff. Couple of J tubes, Etc I usually throw stuff in my rucksack with it if I know what activity I am doing, SAM splint and pelvic splint.
And I keep a General Purpose Trauma bag in my car. Quite in depth.
Above all, it's best to get some training and proficiency rather than Gucci gear. Good idea
About the dog biscuits though.
Post edited at 14:40
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In reply to Dave B:
Legally you don't have to give rescue breaths. Can just give compressions.
That said, those face shields are ok, the pocket masks are a lot better.
Tuff cuts are a given, use a pair of leather an raptors as they fold up, but it's a tad expensive, plus the plastic handle gets a bit cut up when you use the window breaker, so don't use that unless it's a last ditch.
TQs are a legal grey area, and I wouldn't advise anyone to use them unless they are specifically trained. But you are bang on the Money, the CAT are fantastic. Be aware of knock off fakes though, there was a warning put out about them breaking.
And let the bloody medic know you applied one during your handover.
Legally you don't have to give rescue breaths. Can just give compressions.
That said, those face shields are ok, the pocket masks are a lot better.
Tuff cuts are a given, use a pair of leather an raptors as they fold up, but it's a tad expensive, plus the plastic handle gets a bit cut up when you use the window breaker, so don't use that unless it's a last ditch.
TQs are a legal grey area, and I wouldn't advise anyone to use them unless they are specifically trained. But you are bang on the Money, the CAT are fantastic. Be aware of knock off fakes though, there was a warning put out about them breaking.
And let the bloody medic know you applied one during your handover.
In reply to jimjimjim:
The way I look at it, if you can make someone more comfortable, how is that a bad thing?
The way I look at it, if you can make someone more comfortable, how is that a bad thing?
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In reply to marsbar:
My home first aid kit comprises of:
Various sized bandages
Various sized simple dressings
Plasters
Latex type gloves
Dressings for burns.
Very old copy of St John's First Aid book from charity shop
And that's all she wrote for my home.
For my personal walking/climbing kit:
Couple of bandages
Couple of dressings
Few plasters
Latex gloves
Triangle Bandage
Antihistamine cream
Antihistimne tablets
Co-Codamol
Paracetamol
Bog roll
Various tablets relating to my ailments such as the trots and abdo pains
Water purifying tablets
My walking First aid kit is more to treat my personal comfort needs rather than save the world.
Nothing else sexy or complicated. That's why they have Mountain Rescue and 999.
Hoping that this does not evolve into a Pissing contest with who has the biggest willie or the most complex kit available for that 1 in a gazillion chance.
My home first aid kit comprises of:
Various sized bandages
Various sized simple dressings
Plasters
Latex type gloves
Dressings for burns.
Very old copy of St John's First Aid book from charity shop
And that's all she wrote for my home.
For my personal walking/climbing kit:
Couple of bandages
Couple of dressings
Few plasters
Latex gloves
Triangle Bandage
Antihistamine cream
Antihistimne tablets
Co-Codamol
Paracetamol
Bog roll
Various tablets relating to my ailments such as the trots and abdo pains
Water purifying tablets
My walking First aid kit is more to treat my personal comfort needs rather than save the world.
Nothing else sexy or complicated. That's why they have Mountain Rescue and 999.
Hoping that this does not evolve into a Pissing contest with who has the biggest willie or the most complex kit available for that 1 in a gazillion chance.
Post edited at 16:24
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In reply to marsbar:
When chainsawing or around anybody who is I try and make sure I have some of this.
http://www.celoxmedical.com/
It's a 'wonder product', and possibly saved the life of a tree worker who cut into his jugular vein in his neck with a chainsaw.
I don't feel like I know an awful lot about first aid to be honest, but knowing something about stopping blood from gushing out seems like a good thing!
That and the recovery position.
Hopefully I've not just started what Lemming was hoping wouldn't happen.
When chainsawing or around anybody who is I try and make sure I have some of this.
http://www.celoxmedical.com/
It's a 'wonder product', and possibly saved the life of a tree worker who cut into his jugular vein in his neck with a chainsaw.
I don't feel like I know an awful lot about first aid to be honest, but knowing something about stopping blood from gushing out seems like a good thing!
That and the recovery position.
Hopefully I've not just started what Lemming was hoping wouldn't happen.
Post edited at 17:36
In reply to Timmd:
Celox is outstanding stuff. Much better than the quick clot powder. Phenomenal. Can't use it on abdominal injuries though.
Chainsawing is a different ballgame. You want a CAT and some Israeli bandages for that. All else fails, drop a knee above the wound for some indirect pressure.
Get yourself on a wee course mate. It's a good life skill to have. Even the little stuff, not just the catastrophic haemorrhaging and blood pishing out everywhere.
I remember being a nipper, and although I had done a bit of first aid training, I came across a motorbike accident, and my mind went black. Luckily there was an old boy who stopped too and did bloody well to take control of the situation.
I hated that feeing of helplessness.
Celox is outstanding stuff. Much better than the quick clot powder. Phenomenal. Can't use it on abdominal injuries though.
Chainsawing is a different ballgame. You want a CAT and some Israeli bandages for that. All else fails, drop a knee above the wound for some indirect pressure.
Get yourself on a wee course mate. It's a good life skill to have. Even the little stuff, not just the catastrophic haemorrhaging and blood pishing out everywhere.
I remember being a nipper, and although I had done a bit of first aid training, I came across a motorbike accident, and my mind went black. Luckily there was an old boy who stopped too and did bloody well to take control of the situation.
I hated that feeing of helplessness.
In reply to marsbar:
It's not a bad thing but I'm not carrying a first aid kit for this purpose is what I'm saying.
It's not a bad thing but I'm not carrying a first aid kit for this purpose is what I'm saying.
In reply to Bootrock:
Which you don't need a first aid kit for
Nothing, and someone who's been on some first aid course and has a little kit will do nothing either
I've got a kit in the van for work though.
> "Real first aid" could be as simple as Recovery position and getting professional medical help.
Which you don't need a first aid kit for
> And what happens when you climb without them, or people that don't know such people.
Nothing, and someone who's been on some first aid course and has a little kit will do nothing either
> No it's not. It literally means, the first person there to give aid. It's not all about basic life support, although in those situations then you are just a link in the chain of survival and you are just keeping them alive until professional help arrives. It's not about cracking a field hospital and smashing on with reattaching limbs.
Which of course I would do but don't see the need for a first aid kit> I do agree on that last point. Usually find its first aid instructors who think they are some sort of Gucci EMT.
> It's best to keep it simple though, I have 3 kits I usually take. A small Clipbox of gloves, wipes, steristrips, safety pins, zinc oxide tap, a triangular bandage, competed and a few small gauze.
Nothing wring with it I'm just saying I don't bother. I like a light bag when I'm out.I've got a kit in the van for work though.
> I slightly bigger set that is more like you off the shelf type. But more in depth stuff. Couple of J tubes, Etc I usually throw stuff in my rucksack with it if I know what activity I am doing, SAM splint and pelvic splint.
> And I keep a General Purpose Trauma bag in my car. Quite in depth.
Which is fine if you're trained to deal with trauma, > Above all, it's best to get some training and proficiency rather than Gucci gear. Good idea
Agreed. I normally have a knife, some finger tape and a t-shirt and you can make do with that for most stuff till the experts come.
1
In reply to jimjimjim:
That doesn't sound very sterile.
> Agreed. I normally have a knife, some finger tape and a t-shirt and you can make do with that for most stuff till the experts come.
That doesn't sound very sterile.
Post edited at 00:05
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In reply to Timmd:
Probably not, but none of my patients have died of septicaemia yet. I'm still not carrying a first aid kit.
Probably not, but none of my patients have died of septicaemia yet. I'm still not carrying a first aid kit.
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In reply to Bootrock:
I'm sorry Bootrock but some of that is pure nonsense.
The European and UK Resuscitation Councils dictate how resuscitation should be carried out in all scenarios, first aid, in hospital, pre-hospital etc etc (and they do differ). What they make very clear is that anybody taught CPR should be taught to do both compressions and ventilations as that is the most effective, in some cases doing compressions only would be of little value. However, where one is unable (or unwilling) to provide ventilations, and only then, should you resort to compressions only.
Why you put the word 'legally' into the sentence is a mystery as it is not a legal matter.
Pocket masks are good, yes, so long as you have been taught how to use them and can perform the task with one, which isn't that easy. (Harder than without one for most people).
Tourniquets are not a 'legal' grey area, they are not subject to any legislation at all, and there is quite explicit guidance concerning their use. The official guidance is that they should not be taught during 'ordinary' first aid courses, but may be included where there is specific demonstrable risk that may make them appropriate (e.g.: chain saw users etc). It goes without saying that training in their use is essential.
I'm sorry Bootrock but some of that is pure nonsense.
The European and UK Resuscitation Councils dictate how resuscitation should be carried out in all scenarios, first aid, in hospital, pre-hospital etc etc (and they do differ). What they make very clear is that anybody taught CPR should be taught to do both compressions and ventilations as that is the most effective, in some cases doing compressions only would be of little value. However, where one is unable (or unwilling) to provide ventilations, and only then, should you resort to compressions only.
Why you put the word 'legally' into the sentence is a mystery as it is not a legal matter.
Pocket masks are good, yes, so long as you have been taught how to use them and can perform the task with one, which isn't that easy. (Harder than without one for most people).
Tourniquets are not a 'legal' grey area, they are not subject to any legislation at all, and there is quite explicit guidance concerning their use. The official guidance is that they should not be taught during 'ordinary' first aid courses, but may be included where there is specific demonstrable risk that may make them appropriate (e.g.: chain saw users etc). It goes without saying that training in their use is essential.
5
In reply to Hillwalker:
Well please, let us discuss this.
youtube.com/watch?v=ILxjxfB4zNk&
I don't dispute your comment. I agree with it. However, Its better to do something, than nothing.
It's not a mystery. Some of the questions I have had are about doing something, or making the situation worse, or worried they might get sued for getting something wrong.
Maybe legal isn't the right word, but the idea is still the same.
I concur. I find them better than the flimsy face shields thing, but again, something is better than nothing. And it's handy to carry in your wallet.
Agreed.
Again it all comes down to training. Training and competence. If you aren't trained on it, then Don't use it/carry it.
The legal aspect would be if you aren't trained on them but use one.
So I don't really think it's nonsense fella.
> I'm sorry Bootrock but some of that is pure nonsense.
Well please, let us discuss this.
> The European and UK Resuscitation Councils dictate how resuscitation should be carried out in all scenarios, first aid, in hospital, pre-hospital etc etc (and they do differ). What they make very clear is that anybody taught CPR should be taught to do both compressions and ventilations as that is the most effective, in some cases doing compressions only would be of little value. However, where one is unable (or unwilling) to provide ventilations, and only then, should you resort to compressions only.
youtube.com/watch?v=ILxjxfB4zNk&
I don't dispute your comment. I agree with it. However, Its better to do something, than nothing.
> Why you put the word 'legally' into the sentence is a mystery as it is not a legal matter.
It's not a mystery. Some of the questions I have had are about doing something, or making the situation worse, or worried they might get sued for getting something wrong.
Maybe legal isn't the right word, but the idea is still the same.
> Pocket masks are good, yes, so long as you have been taught how to use them and can perform the task with one, which isn't that easy. (Harder than without one for most people).
I concur. I find them better than the flimsy face shields thing, but again, something is better than nothing. And it's handy to carry in your wallet.
> Tourniquets are not a 'legal' grey area, they are not subject to any legislation at all, and there is quite explicit guidance concerning their use. The official guidance is that they should not be taught during 'ordinary' first aid courses, but may be included where there is specific demonstrable risk that may make them appropriate (e.g.: chain saw users etc). It goes without saying that training in their use is essential.
Agreed.
Again it all comes down to training. Training and competence. If you aren't trained on it, then Don't use it/carry it.
The legal aspect would be if you aren't trained on them but use one.
So I don't really think it's nonsense fella.
3
In reply to Hillwalker:
but this is like electrical testing, new additions or amendments nearly every year. It swings in different directions, 1 person, 2 persons, ratios, no breathes (school of thought was there was enough oxygen in most peoples bodies already and it was 99% of time a circulation problem not lung function), then breathes came back in favour etc.. as long as you do something it is always going to be better than standing watching someone die.
Totally agree, on my belt are a couple of field dressing and a tourniquet. Anything less serious I'll walk, anything more serious than these require I'd be dead anyway.
> The European and UK Resuscitation Councils dictate how resuscitation should be carried out in all scenarios, first aid, in hospital, pre-hospital etc etc (and they do differ). What they make very clear is that anybody taught CPR should be taught to do both compressions and ventilations as that is the most effective, in some cases doing compressions only would be of little value. However, where one is unable (or unwilling) to provide ventilations, and only then, should you resort to compressions only.
but this is like electrical testing, new additions or amendments nearly every year. It swings in different directions, 1 person, 2 persons, ratios, no breathes (school of thought was there was enough oxygen in most peoples bodies already and it was 99% of time a circulation problem not lung function), then breathes came back in favour etc.. as long as you do something it is always going to be better than standing watching someone die.
> Tourniquets .....may make them appropriate (e.g.: chain saw users etc).
Totally agree, on my belt are a couple of field dressing and a tourniquet. Anything less serious I'll walk, anything more serious than these require I'd be dead anyway.
1
In reply to Bootrock:
I've been on a 3 or 4 day first aid course, and then another Forest School related one over the years, and hope to have absorbed enough to not be a 'faffing hinderance' as it were, but I feel you never really know until it happens. keep meaning to reread my notes, and probably go on another course too. Those Israeli bandages look really useful, perhaps when combined with some Cellox applied to a wound first. The Cellox is popular with tree surgeons I've noticed.
> Celox is outstanding stuff. Much better than the quick clot powder. Phenomenal. Can't use it on abdominal injuries though.
> Chainsawing is a different ballgame. You want a CAT and some Israeli bandages for that. All else fails, drop a knee above the wound for some indirect pressure.
> Get yourself on a wee course mate. It's a good life skill to have. Even the little stuff, not just the catastrophic haemorrhaging and blood pishing out everywhere.
> I remember being a nipper, and although I had done a bit of first aid training, I came across a motorbike accident, and my mind went black. Luckily there was an old boy who stopped too and did bloody well to take control of the situation.
> I hated that feeing of helplessness.
> Chainsawing is a different ballgame. You want a CAT and some Israeli bandages for that. All else fails, drop a knee above the wound for some indirect pressure.
> Get yourself on a wee course mate. It's a good life skill to have. Even the little stuff, not just the catastrophic haemorrhaging and blood pishing out everywhere.
> I remember being a nipper, and although I had done a bit of first aid training, I came across a motorbike accident, and my mind went black. Luckily there was an old boy who stopped too and did bloody well to take control of the situation.
> I hated that feeing of helplessness.
I've been on a 3 or 4 day first aid course, and then another Forest School related one over the years, and hope to have absorbed enough to not be a 'faffing hinderance' as it were, but I feel you never really know until it happens. keep meaning to reread my notes, and probably go on another course too. Those Israeli bandages look really useful, perhaps when combined with some Cellox applied to a wound first. The Cellox is popular with tree surgeons I've noticed.
In reply to Bootrock:
If you read my post again I endorsed the view that if one is unable or unwilling to perform ventilations then just performing chest compressions is good, of course its always better than nothing.
I have particular concerns whenever anybody hints that (in UK) one could be prosecuted or sued for attempting First Aid and getting it wrong. I challenge you to find one single instance where any lay first aider (not a paid organisation) has ever been subject to legal action in UK. I am pretty confident you will never find one. The House of Lords has made it abundantly clear that they would fight any attempt to do so as it would result in nobody ever being willing to help another individual in need.
Hinting that it could happen is damaging in a caring community.
Again, there is no legal restriction on the use of tourniquets, if you think there is, please show me.
If you read my post again I endorsed the view that if one is unable or unwilling to perform ventilations then just performing chest compressions is good, of course its always better than nothing.
I have particular concerns whenever anybody hints that (in UK) one could be prosecuted or sued for attempting First Aid and getting it wrong. I challenge you to find one single instance where any lay first aider (not a paid organisation) has ever been subject to legal action in UK. I am pretty confident you will never find one. The House of Lords has made it abundantly clear that they would fight any attempt to do so as it would result in nobody ever being willing to help another individual in need.
Hinting that it could happen is damaging in a caring community.
Again, there is no legal restriction on the use of tourniquets, if you think there is, please show me.
7
In reply to Hillwalker:
Well we agree then.
Only if you do as you are trained. Deviating from what you are trained in, could endanger life and I am not saying it has happened, but in this day and age of spineless joe public and injury lawyers, I certainly wouldn't say it won't happen.
And there is numerous emergency service personnel who have faced disciplinary from deviating from "policies and Procedures".
No it's not.
Again. I know. But a good rule is Only if you are trained. But doing something is better than nothing. We are arguing semantics here. Maybe legal wasn't the right word. But the idea stays the same. When the public services are getting twitchy about legalities and deviating from policies and procedures (which is bonkers, they should be advisory and the guys on the ground should be able to think outside he box, not black and white procedures) and they have top cover and insurances, what do you think Joe bloggs First Aider has, if he drops a bollock and does something he isn't trained for.
Certain courses above FAW train in the use of TQs and Haemostatics, FPOS and MIRA, etc.
Sorry I am not a walking dictionary and am more of a practical person. But it seems we are agreeing on the same points, you are just being a bit pedantic.
> If you read my post again I endorsed the view that if one is unable or unwilling to perform ventilations then just performing chest compressions is good, of course its always better than nothing.
Well we agree then.
> I have particular concerns whenever anybody hints that (in UK) one could be prosecuted or sued for attempting First Aid and getting it wrong. I challenge you to find one single instance where any lay first aider (not a paid organisation) has ever been subject to legal action in UK. I am pretty confident you will never find one. The House of Lords has made it abundantly clear that they would fight any attempt to do so as it would result in nobody ever being willing to help another individual in need.
Only if you do as you are trained. Deviating from what you are trained in, could endanger life and I am not saying it has happened, but in this day and age of spineless joe public and injury lawyers, I certainly wouldn't say it won't happen.
And there is numerous emergency service personnel who have faced disciplinary from deviating from "policies and Procedures".
> Hinting that it could happen is damaging in a caring community.
No it's not.
> Again, there is no legal restriction on the use of tourniquets, if you think there is, please show me.
Again. I know. But a good rule is Only if you are trained. But doing something is better than nothing. We are arguing semantics here. Maybe legal wasn't the right word. But the idea stays the same. When the public services are getting twitchy about legalities and deviating from policies and procedures (which is bonkers, they should be advisory and the guys on the ground should be able to think outside he box, not black and white procedures) and they have top cover and insurances, what do you think Joe bloggs First Aider has, if he drops a bollock and does something he isn't trained for.
Certain courses above FAW train in the use of TQs and Haemostatics, FPOS and MIRA, etc.
Sorry I am not a walking dictionary and am more of a practical person. But it seems we are agreeing on the same points, you are just being a bit pedantic.
Post edited at 13:23
3
In reply to Bimble:
Why have a triangular bandage when they have their neckers?
to the OP - a roll of electrician's insulating tape and some kitchen roll/man-size tissues constitutes the first aid kit on my boat. (Actually I have a 3/4 litre -sized kit, but the insulating tape and kitchen roll is the only thing that gets used).
I notice quite a few 'small kits' people use above don't have any means of tying/sticking something in place - Are they assuming they'll be able to use clothing?
> I had to put together a basic kit for my Scouts this week for them to use on their Expedition Challenge.
> 1x triangular bandage & safety pins
> 1x triangular bandage & safety pins
Why have a triangular bandage when they have their neckers?
to the OP - a roll of electrician's insulating tape and some kitchen roll/man-size tissues constitutes the first aid kit on my boat. (Actually I have a 3/4 litre -sized kit, but the insulating tape and kitchen roll is the only thing that gets used).
I notice quite a few 'small kits' people use above don't have any means of tying/sticking something in place - Are they assuming they'll be able to use clothing?
In reply to marsbar:
A pack of Celox and an Israeli dressing is fantastic in case of serious wounds.
My kit for a single mountain day contains:
Medical scissors (and I've normally got a penknife separately on me)
Pencil and Small notebook (plus pencil sharpener)
Small medical book
Mobile phone (turned off to conserve battery which has been checked for signal in that area)
Blister plasters
Duct tape wrapped round my drinking bottle
pair of sterile gloves
mouth shield
1 pack Celox
1 Israeli Dressing
1 large wound dressing pad (can always cut it up)
1 large burn dressing
1 triangular bandage
1 normal bandage
small pack of plasters
strong painkillers (6 doses worth as you should never be further than that from help in the UK)
1 Epipen in case of any reactions to anything in the kit.
normally packed inside a SAM splint for protection and because the SAM splint weighs about the same as any tuperware box I could pack it in.
A pack of Celox and an Israeli dressing is fantastic in case of serious wounds.
My kit for a single mountain day contains:
Medical scissors (and I've normally got a penknife separately on me)
Pencil and Small notebook (plus pencil sharpener)
Small medical book
Mobile phone (turned off to conserve battery which has been checked for signal in that area)
Blister plasters
Duct tape wrapped round my drinking bottle
pair of sterile gloves
mouth shield
1 pack Celox
1 Israeli Dressing
1 large wound dressing pad (can always cut it up)
1 large burn dressing
1 triangular bandage
1 normal bandage
small pack of plasters
strong painkillers (6 doses worth as you should never be further than that from help in the UK)
1 Epipen in case of any reactions to anything in the kit.
normally packed inside a SAM splint for protection and because the SAM splint weighs about the same as any tuperware box I could pack it in.
Post edited at 15:06
In reply to Bootrock:
I guess the problem/thing to be aware of with using tourniquets is the risk of toxic shock happening after they've been released?
Edit: Which sets me thinking that the loss of a limb due to blood supply being restricted probably needs to be thought about too.
I guess the problem/thing to be aware of with using tourniquets is the risk of toxic shock happening after they've been released?
Edit: Which sets me thinking that the loss of a limb due to blood supply being restricted probably needs to be thought about too.
Post edited at 15:51
Sorry if this is repeating anyone, but I keep a tiny headtorch, whistle and a lighter in mine. Things I'd forget if they weren't in it.
The lighter is mainly for the jetboil as the sparker is crap...
The lighter is mainly for the jetboil as the sparker is crap...
In reply to Timmd:
The basics are:
-It only goes on a single bone part of a limb (8 positions upper arm / upper leg a the near or far part of the bone) closest to the life threatening bleed as possible OR if releasing a crush injury crushed for > 15 mins
- It is only released in hospital by an appropriately qualified doctor. (They have hours now for the release to occur). NEVER RELEASED By a first aider.
Edit: this is to allow for toxic shock drugs and interventions to be given.
- Ambulance control is advised when you apply one. You write T= and the time on the forehead and the tourniquet and any hand over notes.
They are truly lifesaving interventions when used appropriately.
It takes about 15 minutes max to be trained on it, but as it is a serious intervention, then its usually omitted.
They give two of the things to squaddies, so they must be deemed pretty safe
djb
The basics are:
-It only goes on a single bone part of a limb (8 positions upper arm / upper leg a the near or far part of the bone) closest to the life threatening bleed as possible OR if releasing a crush injury crushed for > 15 mins
- It is only released in hospital by an appropriately qualified doctor. (They have hours now for the release to occur). NEVER RELEASED By a first aider.
Edit: this is to allow for toxic shock drugs and interventions to be given.
- Ambulance control is advised when you apply one. You write T= and the time on the forehead and the tourniquet and any hand over notes.
They are truly lifesaving interventions when used appropriately.
It takes about 15 minutes max to be trained on it, but as it is a serious intervention, then its usually omitted.
They give two of the things to squaddies, so they must be deemed pretty safe
djb
Post edited at 17:04
3
In reply to Timmd:
Yea there's numerous risks and numerous situations and opinions on them. They are a bit of a hot topic. It's worth a little read about:
http://www.realfirstaid.co.uk/tourniquets/
They can be used for various things, I have seen them used for crush injuries. You could double them up. Etc.
There was a few opinions on how to use them, but since Operations in Iraq and Afghanistan the technology and medical advances have been phenomenal. Which is where the CAT came to be.
The Israeli bandages can be used a certain way, and you can buy some with tension bars on, to use it as a makeshift TQ and increase pressure on wounds.
I wouldn't be releasing anything, if I am putting it on, it's staying on, the time written on it and the casualty is marked. Telling the medic at the handover exactly where I have put it and pointing to it. The professionals can deal with it after that.
Not just the release of toxins, but the decay of living cells due to lack of blood flow. But there's been a few studies and different opinions on how long you can put them on for.
Either way, if you are slapping a TQ on, then the brown sticky stuff has hit the big whirly thing.
Yea there's numerous risks and numerous situations and opinions on them. They are a bit of a hot topic. It's worth a little read about:
http://www.realfirstaid.co.uk/tourniquets/
They can be used for various things, I have seen them used for crush injuries. You could double them up. Etc.
There was a few opinions on how to use them, but since Operations in Iraq and Afghanistan the technology and medical advances have been phenomenal. Which is where the CAT came to be.
The Israeli bandages can be used a certain way, and you can buy some with tension bars on, to use it as a makeshift TQ and increase pressure on wounds.
I wouldn't be releasing anything, if I am putting it on, it's staying on, the time written on it and the casualty is marked. Telling the medic at the handover exactly where I have put it and pointing to it. The professionals can deal with it after that.
Not just the release of toxins, but the decay of living cells due to lack of blood flow. But there's been a few studies and different opinions on how long you can put them on for.
Either way, if you are slapping a TQ on, then the brown sticky stuff has hit the big whirly thing.
In reply to marsbar:
Some very worrying attitudes expressed in here.
As a professional with 40 years in Hospital care, (much of it in Dept of Acute and Critical Care), 30 years MR experience, and a Masters Degree I am astonished at some of the 'barrack room lawyer/experts' comments/opinions expressed here.
I shall make no further comment whatever in this thread.
Some very worrying attitudes expressed in here.
As a professional with 40 years in Hospital care, (much of it in Dept of Acute and Critical Care), 30 years MR experience, and a Masters Degree I am astonished at some of the 'barrack room lawyer/experts' comments/opinions expressed here.
I shall make no further comment whatever in this thread.
4
In reply to Dave B:
On a recent refresher course, we were taught how to apply and use tourniquets. Evidence from military trauma amply shows their benefit where appropriate, hence the change in policy. We were also taught to use haemostatic dressings, again, from the same evidence.
On a recent refresher course, we were taught how to apply and use tourniquets. Evidence from military trauma amply shows their benefit where appropriate, hence the change in policy. We were also taught to use haemostatic dressings, again, from the same evidence.
In reply to captain paranoia:
Interesting to hear.
They still aren't taught in the basic lifeguard course, nor I suspect will they be for some time.
Interesting to hear.
They still aren't taught in the basic lifeguard course, nor I suspect will they be for some time.
In reply to Hillwalker:
Such OPs are excellent tools to help people build up First Aid kits, but sadly they evolve into contests about who has the biggest willie and can outdo the story of Lazarus.
Its a shame.
> I shall make no further comment whatever in this thread.
Such OPs are excellent tools to help people build up First Aid kits, but sadly they evolve into contests about who has the biggest willie and can outdo the story of Lazarus.
Its a shame.
1
In reply to Hillwalker:
Please go on?
Please, tell me more about your interesting life.
Why not, if you feel like you can contribute, then do so?
If there is a plethora of experience here, why not draw from it?
> Some very worrying attitudes expressed in here.
Please go on?
> As a professional with 40 years in Hospital care, (much of it in Dept of Acute and Critical Care), 30 years MR experience, and a Masters Degree I am astonished at some of the 'barrack room lawyer/experts' comments/opinions expressed here.
Please, tell me more about your interesting life.
> I shall make no further comment whatever in this thread.
Why not, if you feel like you can contribute, then do so?
If there is a plethora of experience here, why not draw from it?
1
3
In reply to Hillwalker:
In a way that's not having a pop, if there's anything seriously amiss, some people might benefit from you correcting them.
> Some very worrying attitudes expressed in here.
> As a professional with 40 years in Hospital care, (much of it in Dept of Acute and Critical Care), 30 years MR experience, and a Masters Degree I am astonished at some of the 'barrack room lawyer/experts' comments/opinions expressed here.
> I shall make no further comment whatever in this thread.
> As a professional with 40 years in Hospital care, (much of it in Dept of Acute and Critical Care), 30 years MR experience, and a Masters Degree I am astonished at some of the 'barrack room lawyer/experts' comments/opinions expressed here.
> I shall make no further comment whatever in this thread.
In a way that's not having a pop, if there's anything seriously amiss, some people might benefit from you correcting them.
Post edited at 22:18
1
In reply to Hillwalker:
That's a shame. I'm sure your experienced input would be very useful; i'd certainly welcome sound, pragmatic advice.
> I shall make no further comment whatever in this thread.
That's a shame. I'm sure your experienced input would be very useful; i'd certainly welcome sound, pragmatic advice.
2
In reply to marsbar:
My general kit is a LifeSystems pocket kit - covers most activities: http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/lifesystems-pocket-first-aid-kit-e7314005?id...
I've added gloves, mouth shield, steri strips, pad and pencil and more plasters. Think there's some ibuprofen, too.
I usually have a knife of some description and a foil blanket in my kit.
I have similar kits in the car and under the saddle of the motorbike - notably in those cases, I have a pair of tuff-cut scissors for getting through seatbelts/leathers/helmet straps and a torch in case it's dark. The motorbike also has burns dressings.
The kayaking kit is in a dry box.
My general kit is a LifeSystems pocket kit - covers most activities: http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/lifesystems-pocket-first-aid-kit-e7314005?id...
I've added gloves, mouth shield, steri strips, pad and pencil and more plasters. Think there's some ibuprofen, too.
I usually have a knife of some description and a foil blanket in my kit.
I have similar kits in the car and under the saddle of the motorbike - notably in those cases, I have a pair of tuff-cut scissors for getting through seatbelts/leathers/helmet straps and a torch in case it's dark. The motorbike also has burns dressings.
The kayaking kit is in a dry box.
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