UKC

Simple question, how many stars? (Writing this up for the guide, never going to climb it myself).

Once Upon a Time in the South West (E9 6c)

Having read the old news article http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=63019 I'm inclined to give it 3, but if anyone can confirm or contradict this, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,
Mark.

In reply to Mark Kemball:

Never even seen the cliff in the flesh, but knowing the climbers who have done it and seeing the photos, if you are giving it any number of stars, it has to be three, at least. Anything less would be an insult to the star system.

Does it even need a star rating? The route looks quite capable of advertising its quality by itself.

In reply to Rick Graham:


Some people will assume you've given it none. And some people like to find things to complain about. I'd give it 3 based on Dave Birkett's comments, even though he bagged the FA.

In reply to Mark Kemball:

According to the article "the holds keep falling off". That's worth a star. It goes up the middle of possibly the biggest, blankest sheet of rock in UK. That's worth a star. I'm sure there another reason to give it a third. And a couple of daggers for luck....

Not that I'm going to do it mind...

In reply to Mark Kemball:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=8532

Dave Birkett's comments on this make it sound like a *** route.

In reply to Mark Kemball:

3* it is then, until someone climbs it and disagrees. Thanks.

In reply to Mark Kemball:

Hi Mark

Surely three quick emails to Dave B, Charlie W and Hazel F will confirm whether or not three stars applies? They'll be people on UKC who can contact them or have their details. Otherwise it's conjecture by us based on how damn good the route looks, it's grade and the fact that it's a Dave B route (but it just be three star right?!).

Has anyone else led it since 2011?

Are you continuing the white stars from the existing guide for routes given stars by first ascentionists but then unrepeated?

C

In reply to Cusco:
That would be the best solution, if I had their contact details! (If anyone has email addresses, could you let me have them, please?) Or could someone point them to this thread?

The hollow stars - that's an editorial decision, but as they are in the new Bosi guide, I presume they will continue.

In reply to Mark Kemball:

We need to go to a 6 or 7 star system in order to leap ahead of the Scots. Stick two fingers up at the SMC guides and all that!

In reply to Mark Kemball:

Should lose stars for the pegs.

In reply to GrahamD:


That does imply a route with pegs can be 1 star at best! There must be some cracking routes out there with pegs?

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

I think he's arguing for replacement of pegs on the grounds that bolts are safer and more modern.

In reply to davidbeynon:

I was making a point about the ascent style, using pegs, is retrograde given the ethical statement that had been so recently made on Walk of Life to remove all the in situ pegs (its a shame that part of it seems to have got lost in the subsequent grade furore). New routes (as opposed to historical routes put up before we knew better) using pegs should not be lauded as great routes IMO, irrespective of the moves.

And obviously I was not advocating bolts !

In reply to GrahamD:


Do you tend to take yourself too seriously? It's just a piece of rock to climb and the pegs were already there. Not sure how WoL affects the climbing on another route.

In reply to Mark Kemball:


Very tricky question, I'd say!

The practice of giving very hard routes lots of stars by default is now so prevalent that we're pretty much trapped into it: not awarding three stars (or at least two) is effectively making a very negative statement about the route. You could argue that for the highest-graded routes the star rating has all but lost its usual function - an indicator of quality - and has become a measure of the status of the first ascentionist, the time and effort he/she put into the route, and a (pointless) replication of the grade information.

Personally (as you can probably tell), I think this is a regrettable trend

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


Not all of them were AFAIK. And of course we all take ourselves too seriously.

In reply to GrahamD:


Even if he placed a few new pegs, it could be a fantastic experience on lead? Isn't that what the stars are supposed to be telling you, where the most 'fun' is to be had?

In reply to GrahamD: I thought the prevailing ethic on the north coast was no pegs and let those left rot away. The routes I've climbed at Hippa Rock for example are fine without the original pegs. There are a few still kicking around at Spekes Mill but those will be harder without, that surely should be the challenge for the likes of Birkett. I think rather than praising his ascent we should be saying stick to the local ethics. Maybe a top roped ascent of these routes should be accepted, Ben Moon climbed Equilibrium that way.

In reply to Mark Lloyd:


I see stars as a guide to route quality (whatever that means), not praise of the FA. Even if the FA sees it that way.


A top roped ascent is accepted as a top roped ascent. You can't claim the FA by top roping something. Ben Moon didn't get the FA on Equilibrium did he?

In reply to Mark Lloyd:


Which is why Walk of Life was such a great ethical statement and OUTITSW is so retrograde.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


Depends what state the pegs are in, really. Thats the problem with pegs especially in this environment - the experience the original ascensionist got is never repeatable once the pegs corrode.

In reply to GrahamD:


So a route could be a fantastic experience, and have pegs? And wouldn't that deserve a few stars? I'm not entirely sure what you want to use stars for. It appears you want to use them as criticism of the FA.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

It'll probably fall down this winter so shouldn't worry too much

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


It could also be crap. The experience will change over the lifetime of the guidebook

In reply to GrahamD:


But that doesn't help somebody writing the guidebook who's trying to work out how many stars to give it, which is the whole point of this thread.

So I'm trying to get to the bottom of your opinion of stars and how they should be used. You said the route should lose stars because of the pegs. That would imply that either you think:

1) all routes with pegs are crap and don't deserve stars (since you haven't done this route I presume, and your only criticism is the pegs)

or

2) you're just using the star system to criticise Dave Birkett's use of them on this route

But you seem to concede that routes with pegs can be excellent routes and deserving of stars, so I guess you're saying 2?

In reply to Cheese Monkey:


Bored at work, home time soon, don't think I'll lose sleep.

In reply to Mark Lloyd:

Getting off topic, but this is not the case. (It is for West Penwith).

Many routes on Culm can only be protected with pegs. Best practise on new routes is to remove the pegs after an ascent, so as to prevent the placement becoming blocked by the rusting remains, and to include details of the placements in route descriptions.

Back on topic, it looks a fantastic line, if the climbing is anywhere near as good as it looks, it's got to be 3 stars, it would be great if someone could confirm this for me.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

I'm saying definately not 3. I remember getting a real slating on here once for suggesting that the line of Equilibrium actually looks pretty mediocre, compared with nearby Parthian Shot despite getting an equal ***. The jist of the argument then was in terms of Equilibrium's significance in our climbing heritage - the quality of the line being secondary in this case. I still don't buy that 100% HOWEVER if that routes historical significance somehow affects the star rating upwards, then a retrograde ascent using pegs should have a negative impact on the star rating. Allied to the fact that a pegged line on sea cliffs is always going to be a relatively short lived route in that state I'd say * at most - assuming the climbing is any good of course.

In reply to GrahamD:


Well I hope you're not writing any guidebooks in future.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


The pegs were NOT already there. If I recall correctly, there were no pegs before and Birkett placed two prior to the ascent. I'm not saying it necessarily affects the route's quality but I do think it a bit of a shame.

Surely you can see the relevance of pointing out how Walk of Life saw the removal of 6-8 pegs prior to the FA, then not too much later the new route next to it has more hammered back in again?

In reply to Michael Gordon:


No I CAN'T.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

In your view, what has actually been achieved in putting up a new route using pegs in an agreed no pegs area (for the obvious very good reason) especially in the light of a route recently put up on the same crag at the same grade was done in far better ethical form ?

In reply to GrahamD:


I wasn't discussing the level of achievement, just how many stars the route should get. The disagreement is how the star system should work, that's all.

If the area is agreed to not have new pegs anymore, I would say don't use them. I wouldn't. But since they're in now, just assess the route on it's climbing. That's just my view. As a guidebook buyer, I want the stars to show me the best routes in an obvious way. Put the ethical concerns in the text maybe?

In reply to GrahamD:

The culm coast doesn't have a peg ban and some routes are reliant on peg protection. It would be considered poor form to place more pegs on an established route or to place pegs on a route that has been done without. In terms of first ascents like Birkett's, the decision about whether or not to place pegs is his alone and ungoverned by fixed gear policy.

The only area on the coast with a fixed gear moratorium is penwith. This was voted on and agreed. Bolts are a different matter. Where placed on the culm, they have been removed.

The fixed gear policy for the south west has been agreed recently and is available on the bmc website.

Getting back to topic, the use of pegs should not be a measure of quality, the climbing, situation and purity of line should be.

James

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Do you think historical context has any bearing on stars given to routes (as was forcibly argued on here for defending giving Equilibrium ***) ?

In reply to james mann:


Thanks. I think I've been hoodwinked by the anti-peg brigade.

In reply to james mann:


Agreed, except the quality of the protection must be taken into account.

A 3 star route relying on in situ pegs will only be three star for a few months/ years, after that it will be a dangerous liability. Having to abseil in to place new pegs detracts from the quality which should be based on the ground up tradition.

In reply to GrahamD:


I haven't got a clue, and it's not important to what I'm saying. I'm just articulating how I want stars to work. I've no problem if a historic route gets no stars if it's not a good route to climb.

In reply to Rick Graham:

One suggestion to counter this is that pegs are removed by the fa but honest info about what was placed is given in the description. Subsequent ascentionists can then place their own without placements being destroyed by rusty stubs. This does create a new set of problems but for routes that recieve little traffic it may be a compromise.

James

In reply to james mann:


Where is the fixed gear actually published ? I had a look on the BMC local areas page and didn't see it there (although I accept I might not have been looking well enough)

In reply to GrahamD:
Fixed gear policy
Not sure if this is the most up to date version.
http://community.thebmc.co.uk/GetFile.ashx?did=1984

James

In reply to GrahamD:


Re Equilibrium, as with all routes, stars should be agreed by those who have actually done the route, not by those looking up and saying 'that doesn't look that good'.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Not a lot of point asking about OAATITSW on this forum then, is there ?

In reply to GrahamD:

Not really, no. But in the absence of direct contact with the various ascentionists, myself and others were able to give links to what the likes of Dave B had said regarding the route. Much better than just going by the route's appearance, though in fairness that wall does look amazing!

In reply to James Mann:


From latest BMC policy on fixed gear:

"In general the BMC would advise that new routes on sea cliffs should be established without pegs so that future ascentionists are not faced with an unfairly greater risk due to peg deterioration."

Link to .pdf: https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Handlers/DownloadHandler.ashx?id=1268

Dyer's is an amazing slice of rock and Once Upon A Time In The West looks magnificent. Routes there are three stars almost by default. Solving this obvious problem by resorting to fixed pegs is selfish of Dave Birkett in my view.

In reply to Mark Kemball:

Give it two stars. Rotting fixed gear detracts from quality as it the route becomes a game of roulette and aesthetically unpleasant (I hear Dave Birkett not giving a shit in his inimitable fashion at this point). Great rock climbs test our skills and strengths, not how much we are prepared to gamble. Anticipating comments, climbing loose or brittle rock is very much a game of skill. I'd comment in the text on the unfortunate retrogressive step in employing fixed pegs after James Pearson's prior better effort. It would put down a marker to future first ascentionists on the coast that we have moved on from fixing pegs on sea cliffs.

In reply to duncan:


What if he'd removed the pegs afterwards? I think that's the way forward, chances are that potential repeat ascensionists will ab the line anyway so he may as well have removed the pegs.

In reply to Toerag:


Not much of a route if every ascentionist has to bring their own pegs, ab the line, hammer them in then remove them again afterwards! Rightly or wrongly, he obviously thought fixed gear was required to make the route adequately safe and as FA made the call on the style of route (I'm not defending the decision). If a repeater feels strongly enough, perhaps they'll remove them and climb the route without.

In reply to GrahamD:

I wouldn't moan about pegs unless I thought I was capable of leading the route without them...I don't rate my chances on an E9 so therefore don't feel qualified to comment.

In reply to JackM92:

For what it's worth I had a couple of trips down to N Devon in 2009/2010 and had a look at both Walk of Life and the line to the left (which subsequently became Once Upon A Time...). I can remember feeling that the gear on Once Upon A Time was significantly worse (where it mattered) than on WoL which would have made it a very serious proposition, so it was put on the 'back burner' so to speak, in case I was ever going 'really' well and fancied a chop route. Now I'm by no means saying that even had the gear been reasonable I would definitely have gone back and climbed it, but would never had considered putting pegs in it, I was disappointed to see that it was climbed in this way especially after the effort James had gone to on the Walk of Life to 'clean it up'.

I understand that people have differing opinions on the use of pegs on new trad routes, so c'est la vie. I guess it all forms part of the rich variation that is UK trad climbing, but I don't really see how having what will by now be dubious, rusting pegs really progresses the sport. At least the next logical step will be for somebody to remove them and lead it without as was done next door.

In reply to JackM92:


That's your choice. I'm happy discussing ethics at whatever level the climb happens to be.

By your reasoning anyone operating at or near the leading edge has carte blanche to do what they like because noone else can do their routes. I disagree.

In reply to Aly:

Would it take ball--nuts or are pegs the only answer? A lot of routes here pegged in the late 80s will take ball-nuts, it's just that ball-nuts weren't around at the time thus pegs were used.

In reply to Toerag:

Sliding nuts certainly were around in the 80s and certainly won't go where a blade peg will.

James

In reply to GrahamD:

I suppose it all depends on what is viewed as an acceptable level of danger. On routes where pegs are the only solid protection (lots of climbs on the Culm) I really can't see the problem. Clearly a comprimise needs to be found between those that think there shouldn't be any fixed gear at all and those that want to be able to try hard routes, fall off, and survive. That being said I wouldn't fancy taking a lead fall on many of the decomposing pegs in Devon!

If there's no other gear that would hold a fall then why not put the peg in?

In reply to JackM92:

>I suppose it all depends on what is viewed as an acceptable level of danger. On routes where pegs are the only solid protection (lots of climbs on the Culm) I really can't see the problem.

The problem is that it is only solid protection for the first ascensionist. Placing pegs is just a selfish act on part of the person placing them. If there isn't any gear on that route, either take that challenge or walk away.

If there's no other gear that would hold a fall then why not put the peg in?

Well you could ask James Pearson why he took about 5 pegs out of the Walk of Life.

In reply to GrahamD:

I'm pretty sure it was considerably more than 5 wasn't there something like 10/13 pegs in Dyer Straits alone?

We all know why he took the pegs out to make an ethical statement that pegs are not great, for all of the reasons mentioned above and previously. However there are routes that just wouldn't get done without them and I have had this discussion so many times at BMC meetings its getting tiresome.

What do we want? Routes that only a few people would do because they are solo's without pegs but with wonderful interesting climbing or routes that are accessible to many more people but have pegs in them?

Being a Culm resident I'm hugely grateful for the pegs I've clipped on my local routes throughout the years however I've also had my fair share of Oh My God moments when that peg I've just clipped is barely holding the weight of the quickdraw!

Personally I feel it has to be done on a route by route basis and where pegs are no longer needed leave them out but where they are fundamental to the route and its established grade they should be replaced. It's a tricky balancing act and who makes these decisions? A high end route reliant on pegs will see a lot less activity than a lower grade route and therefore the state of the pegs will be less well know and less frequently replaced making it even more dangerous, however it is more likely to see an abseil inspection prior rather than an onsight. With the exact opposite being true for the lower grade route! Each obviously has it problems!

Great talking point mind!

In reply to GrahamD:

But that's your position, and it appears here that the ethic in the area is that pegs can be used. So I think it'd be harsh to make a statement about ethics in the star system for marking route quality. Having a personal view is fine, the guidebook is for everyone.

I think DB has taken on a hard and dangerous challenge, and you do seem to be turning this into a willy waving contest between 2 people who I'm sure aren't interesting in it being one. The route's seen a few repeats I think, so it seems to have opened an opportunity for others, and the challenge of removing the pegs and climbing the line remains. I don't see much to complain about.

In reply to Macca_7:

The discussion has veered away somewhat from the original topic of stars into one of area peg policy ! My personal preference on the ethics sides is that I'd like to think we recognise that pegs on sea cliffs are not great, because the condition of the pegs is unknown to future ascensionists and the route for them is therefore different from the first ascensionist. I'd be happy with a policy of no new pegs and take the compromises that means (eg I'll never do Eroica now, but I'll live with that - at least the challenge is now well known and isn't steadily deteriorating).

The one on stars is slightly different, but based on a particular view on style and ethics. To what extent should the history and ethics of a route be reflected in the star rating or is it purely about the climbing (with the caveat on the unknown state of the pegs).