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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3811975/Shocking-moment-travellers-...
Sorry for the Fail link, but by god that's disgusting! A friend of mine lives adjacent to the park and I don't think they'll ever take their kids on it again now.
Do they not have toilets in those rather swanky caravans?!
Sorry for the Fail link, but by god that's disgusting! A friend of mine lives adjacent to the park and I don't think they'll ever take their kids on it again now.
Do they not have toilets in those rather swanky caravans?!
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In reply to Bimble:
Do they not have toilets in those rather swanky caravans?!
If they observe mochadi, then possibly not...
Do they not have toilets in those rather swanky caravans?!
If they observe mochadi, then possibly not...
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In reply to Bimble: nothing new. I had to clear up after several traveller camps. Large piles of human excrement were a normal fixture. We had to scrap a bird hide on one occasion due to damage and the cost to properly clean it after it was used as a lavatory for a couple of weeks.
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In reply to Bimble:
I remember reading about travellers. They think it's disgusting/unhygienic to use a toilet so close to their kitchen so refuse to use the loo and go outside.
I remember reading about travellers. They think it's disgusting/unhygienic to use a toilet so close to their kitchen so refuse to use the loo and go outside.
In reply to RockAngel:
And I can totally see the logic in this when you consider that this thinking will have started in an era of an indoor toilet being a bucket! At that time too, they would have been able to stop their caravans more easily in the countryside where going to the toilet outside poses fewer problems - none of us would (I guess) contemplate going to the toilet in our tents when we are wild camping, and we see no problems with going outside.
The problem is that their ancient ways have come into conflict with the modern world, and I guess it's hard to get passed age old thinking that a toilet in your caravan is dirty. I guess the solution is to have dedicated sites that the travellers can use which have toilet blocks, but I can't see any council agreeing to be the first to do so!!
And I can totally see the logic in this when you consider that this thinking will have started in an era of an indoor toilet being a bucket! At that time too, they would have been able to stop their caravans more easily in the countryside where going to the toilet outside poses fewer problems - none of us would (I guess) contemplate going to the toilet in our tents when we are wild camping, and we see no problems with going outside.
The problem is that their ancient ways have come into conflict with the modern world, and I guess it's hard to get passed age old thinking that a toilet in your caravan is dirty. I guess the solution is to have dedicated sites that the travellers can use which have toilet blocks, but I can't see any council agreeing to be the first to do so!!
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In reply to girlymonkey:
Yeah I agree. In my town, they always use the main council car park in the town centre. Pisses the locals off while they're there but, as there are public toilets there, we don't get the problems described.
A dedicated site was proposed but rejected. I suppose would create further issues of funding, maintenance, and how to ensure they are used as oppose to public parks etc.
> I guess the solution is to have dedicated sites that the travellers can use which have toilet blocks, but I can't see any council agreeing to be the first to do so!!
Yeah I agree. In my town, they always use the main council car park in the town centre. Pisses the locals off while they're there but, as there are public toilets there, we don't get the problems described.
A dedicated site was proposed but rejected. I suppose would create further issues of funding, maintenance, and how to ensure they are used as oppose to public parks etc.
In reply to girlymonkey:
There's at least 3 sites within 2 miles of where they are that I can think of.
Or they could act like normal civilised people do and pay for somewhere to live instead of acting like they are entitled to park up where they fancy (and then crap all over it).
There's at least 3 sites within 2 miles of where they are that I can think of.
Or they could act like normal civilised people do and pay for somewhere to live instead of acting like they are entitled to park up where they fancy (and then crap all over it).
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In reply to girlymonkey:
>I guess the solution is to have dedicated sites that the travellers can use which have toilet blocks, but I can't see any council agreeing to be the first to do so!!
Au contraire, Darlington Council absolutely loves it.
http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/local/darlington/10854493.Gypsy_site_...
>I guess the solution is to have dedicated sites that the travellers can use which have toilet blocks, but I can't see any council agreeing to be the first to do so!!
Au contraire, Darlington Council absolutely loves it.
http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/local/darlington/10854493.Gypsy_site_...
In reply to girlymonkey:
Unfortunately, I used to manage a site next door to a permanent site. Little piles of poo along the main path every half metre or so for the first 50m. We had to close it to the public. Site residents absolutely refused to engage over ways of stopping the problem. Perfectly good toilet block on site.
They tried to suggest it was dogs. Never seen a dog use loo roll....
Unfortunately, I used to manage a site next door to a permanent site. Little piles of poo along the main path every half metre or so for the first 50m. We had to close it to the public. Site residents absolutely refused to engage over ways of stopping the problem. Perfectly good toilet block on site.
They tried to suggest it was dogs. Never seen a dog use loo roll....
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In reply to girlymonkey:
Ancient ways, I think there were societies more than 2000 years ago who were more civilised and cleaner living than gypsies.
Having special toilets at dedicated sites won't stop the trail of litter, poo and damage en route to Appleby every year. Filthy, thieving, irresponsible animals.
> The problem is that their ancient ways have come into conflict with the modern world, and I guess it's hard to get passed age old thinking that a toilet in your caravan is dirty. I guess the solution is to have dedicated sites that the travellers can use which have toilet blocks, but I can't see any council agreeing to be the first to do so!!
Ancient ways, I think there were societies more than 2000 years ago who were more civilised and cleaner living than gypsies.
Having special toilets at dedicated sites won't stop the trail of litter, poo and damage en route to Appleby every year. Filthy, thieving, irresponsible animals.
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In reply to girlymonkey:
I also don't like that they think they shouldn't change their 'traditions' & 'heritage' because that's what they've always done. Forcing your daughters to leave school at age 11, son's at 13, with no qualifications is a tradition/heritage that needs to change. These kids are also 'betrothed' & married young, as soon as it's legal.
If anyone tries to say anything about behaviours that they do, damage to property and land, fly tipping and costs of clean ups, they play the racist card. It's not racist to want children to be educated or for councils to not have to pay extra to clean up human excrement from children's play areas.
I also don't like that they think they shouldn't change their 'traditions' & 'heritage' because that's what they've always done. Forcing your daughters to leave school at age 11, son's at 13, with no qualifications is a tradition/heritage that needs to change. These kids are also 'betrothed' & married young, as soon as it's legal.
If anyone tries to say anything about behaviours that they do, damage to property and land, fly tipping and costs of clean ups, they play the racist card. It's not racist to want children to be educated or for councils to not have to pay extra to clean up human excrement from children's play areas.
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In reply to RockAngel:
I'm not saying I agree with their take on it - merely that I can see where it comes from and why the attitude is as it is. I entirely agree that many of their practices should be modernised, including their sanitary arrangements and the education and marriage issues which you mention. However, treating them in a confrontational manner about these issues, as many seem to, calling them animals etc, will only reinforce these ideas. By alienating them further, and refusing to actually understand where their practices originate, we cut off any lines of open communication which could allow for discussions which might convince them to start changing their attitudes.
I'm not saying I agree with their take on it - merely that I can see where it comes from and why the attitude is as it is. I entirely agree that many of their practices should be modernised, including their sanitary arrangements and the education and marriage issues which you mention. However, treating them in a confrontational manner about these issues, as many seem to, calling them animals etc, will only reinforce these ideas. By alienating them further, and refusing to actually understand where their practices originate, we cut off any lines of open communication which could allow for discussions which might convince them to start changing their attitudes.
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In reply to Bimble:
I knew of a traveller site near a cycle path where the travellers would regularly defacate on the path. The council built a toilet block but it was soon stripped of all the copper piping and fittings!!
I knew of a traveller site near a cycle path where the travellers would regularly defacate on the path. The council built a toilet block but it was soon stripped of all the copper piping and fittings!!
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In reply to girlymonkey:
I don't give a f--k where their practices originate, and in giving any special consideration to such heritage the state is failing their children in a racist way.
Look at the figures on health, education, domestic violence and life prospects. The state fails the children of travellers far more than of pretty much any other group in the UK, and it does so because (1) structurally the support services are unable to cope with non-settled peoples and (2) trying to be sensitive about race.
As with some unrelated issues in the midlands concern over race leads to inaction that results in the state failing disproportionately large numbers of children of specific minorities This is discriminatory and racist.
Having met some and spoken with some young people from our local semi-settled traveller community, I am horrified that anyone is allowed to raise children in such material and educational poverty. If I tried that the state would (rightly) take my children away.
> and refusing to actually understand where their practices originate,
I don't give a f--k where their practices originate, and in giving any special consideration to such heritage the state is failing their children in a racist way.
Look at the figures on health, education, domestic violence and life prospects. The state fails the children of travellers far more than of pretty much any other group in the UK, and it does so because (1) structurally the support services are unable to cope with non-settled peoples and (2) trying to be sensitive about race.
As with some unrelated issues in the midlands concern over race leads to inaction that results in the state failing disproportionately large numbers of children of specific minorities This is discriminatory and racist.
Having met some and spoken with some young people from our local semi-settled traveller community, I am horrified that anyone is allowed to raise children in such material and educational poverty. If I tried that the state would (rightly) take my children away.
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In reply to That Shallot:
There may be a lot of legitimate things to complain about regarding the way some people act, but when you start calling people "animals", you are going down a dark path.
> One word !
> Animals
> TS
There may be a lot of legitimate things to complain about regarding the way some people act, but when you start calling people "animals", you are going down a dark path.
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In reply to That Shallot:
Yes, because it's always sensible to describe a complex problem with a single pejorative.
Yes, because it's always sensible to describe a complex problem with a single pejorative.
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In reply to Jimbocz:
ha ha ha..........
Brilliant !
> There may be a lot of legitimate things to complain about regarding the way some people act, but when you start calling people "animals", you are going down a dark path.
ha ha ha..........
Brilliant !
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
So its a complex problem not to crap in kids play area ? or leave bags of waste and mess around the place ?
Anyways enjoy.
> Yes, because it's always sensible to describe a complex problem with a single pejorative.
So its a complex problem not to crap in kids play area ? or leave bags of waste and mess around the place ?
Anyways enjoy.
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In reply to Bimble:
Serious question.
Is anyone able to provide one clear example of a story about the traveller community contributing positively towards the community they have briefly settled in?
Serious question.
Is anyone able to provide one clear example of a story about the traveller community contributing positively towards the community they have briefly settled in?
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In reply to That Shallot:
I imagine that would depend if you've been brought up with no education and a staunch belief in what is mochadi, but then I wouldn't want to confuse you with context.
> So its a complex problem not to crap in kids play area ? or leave bags of waste and mess around the place ?
I imagine that would depend if you've been brought up with no education and a staunch belief in what is mochadi, but then I wouldn't want to confuse you with context.
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
That's amazing your a real bundle of laughs.
Next
> I imagine that would depend if you've been brought up with no education and a staunch belief in what is mochadi, but then I wouldn't want to confuse you with context.
That's amazing your a real bundle of laughs.
Next
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In reply to wintertree:
I think what you mean by this, is that you think I am suggesting we leave them to act as they are. This is not what I am saying, but rather that if we can understand why their practices are such, then we can start to treat them, and talk about them, as human beings. I tend to find that humans react better when they are treated as such! When any group gets referred to as animals, and told they are stupid etc, they rarely react well to the suggestions of other ways they could do things.
> I don't give a f--k where their practices originate, and in giving any special consideration to such heritage the state is failing their children in a racist way.
I think what you mean by this, is that you think I am suggesting we leave them to act as they are. This is not what I am saying, but rather that if we can understand why their practices are such, then we can start to treat them, and talk about them, as human beings. I tend to find that humans react better when they are treated as such! When any group gets referred to as animals, and told they are stupid etc, they rarely react well to the suggestions of other ways they could do things.
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In reply to Bimble:
You only have to watch the caravan club episode of The Inbetweeners to realise why you shouldn't drop the kids off at the pool in a caravan.
You only have to watch the caravan club episode of The Inbetweeners to realise why you shouldn't drop the kids off at the pool in a caravan.
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In reply to That Shallot:
Thanks. It's nice to have a compliment once in a while.
> That's amazing your a real bundle of laughs.
>
Thanks. It's nice to have a compliment once in a while.
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In reply to girlymonkey:
"I guess the solution is to have dedicated sites that the travellers can use which have toilet blocks, but I can't see any council agreeing to be the first to do so!!"
Cardiff has 2 official travellers camps, both are horrible places strewn with rubbish, dumped cars, dumped rubble. These areas may not have been beautiful when the camps were opened (one is quite close to a steel works) but they were nowhere near the state they are in now.
In one camp the council built a facilities block with toilets, laundry etc. and the occupants of the site destroyed them and weighed in the copper. It couldn't have been anyone other than the occupants because they are total no go zones for anyone outside the families/gangs that have colonised them and anyone from outside will be met with violence.
So tax payers have paid to help these people who do their best to avoid paying taxes and destroying everything they are offered.
Swansea council now want to build a new camp and people wonder why everyone is opposed to it.
"I guess the solution is to have dedicated sites that the travellers can use which have toilet blocks, but I can't see any council agreeing to be the first to do so!!"
Cardiff has 2 official travellers camps, both are horrible places strewn with rubbish, dumped cars, dumped rubble. These areas may not have been beautiful when the camps were opened (one is quite close to a steel works) but they were nowhere near the state they are in now.
In one camp the council built a facilities block with toilets, laundry etc. and the occupants of the site destroyed them and weighed in the copper. It couldn't have been anyone other than the occupants because they are total no go zones for anyone outside the families/gangs that have colonised them and anyone from outside will be met with violence.
So tax payers have paid to help these people who do their best to avoid paying taxes and destroying everything they are offered.
Swansea council now want to build a new camp and people wonder why everyone is opposed to it.
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In reply to That Shallot:
I think your overly enthusiastic positive statements and winks are a bit strange. I'm genuinely asking if they are meant to be sarcastic because I'm not sure how to take it.
They don't work very well as arguments either. Could you elaborate on what you meant in reply to what I said? Do you think it's not been a problem in history when a group of people start looking at another group as not human? Like Rawanda? Or are you trying to say you already knew this and I'm being patronising?
I think your overly enthusiastic positive statements and winks are a bit strange. I'm genuinely asking if they are meant to be sarcastic because I'm not sure how to take it.
They don't work very well as arguments either. Could you elaborate on what you meant in reply to what I said? Do you think it's not been a problem in history when a group of people start looking at another group as not human? Like Rawanda? Or are you trying to say you already knew this and I'm being patronising?
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In reply to Jimbocz:
would you walk down a dark path near a gypsy site? I expect you'd have lots of good luck at the end of it.
> you are going down a dark path.
would you walk down a dark path near a gypsy site? I expect you'd have lots of good luck at the end of it.
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In reply to Jimbocz:
I've just realised that this thread has happened before. Almost exactly. It's a trap. Leave now and take your sanity and respect for humankind with you while you can.
I've just realised that this thread has happened before. Almost exactly. It's a trap. Leave now and take your sanity and respect for humankind with you while you can.
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
You're right , I don't see much good coming out of this. I just couldn't go without saying something.
You're right , I don't see much good coming out of this. I just couldn't go without saying something.
In reply to cap'nChino:
Many Travellers went and fought in the British Army in both World Wars and continue to serve in the forces. http://grthm.natt.org.uk/war-heroes.php
Many Travellers contributed to our folk music and storytelling traditions. Without them we've have lost an important part of our heritage. http://songcollectors.org/tradition-bearers/
When farms needed fruit picking and other general labouring, they'd employ Travellers to do these types of jobs.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/kent/voices/hartlake/hop_picking.shtml
Many Travellers are now working as teachers, builders, gardeners, health assistants and lots of other types of work that benefits their community and the wider community. Unfortunately I can't give links to individuals, as it is down to personal choice whether Travellers choose to be open about their ethnicity and risk being refused employment, or keep their heads down and only tell a few close friends. I'd love to tell you about the surgeon I know in Ireland, but this person has taken the decision to keep quiet about it.
> Is anyone able to provide one clear example of a story about the traveller community contributing positively towards the community they have briefly settled in?
Many Travellers went and fought in the British Army in both World Wars and continue to serve in the forces. http://grthm.natt.org.uk/war-heroes.php
Many Travellers contributed to our folk music and storytelling traditions. Without them we've have lost an important part of our heritage. http://songcollectors.org/tradition-bearers/
When farms needed fruit picking and other general labouring, they'd employ Travellers to do these types of jobs.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/kent/voices/hartlake/hop_picking.shtml
Many Travellers are now working as teachers, builders, gardeners, health assistants and lots of other types of work that benefits their community and the wider community. Unfortunately I can't give links to individuals, as it is down to personal choice whether Travellers choose to be open about their ethnicity and risk being refused employment, or keep their heads down and only tell a few close friends. I'd love to tell you about the surgeon I know in Ireland, but this person has taken the decision to keep quiet about it.
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
These aren't some isolated Amazonian tribe, they may not have a formal education but they know full well how to interact with modern society. A 'belief' that you shouldn't shit in your caravan can be accommodated without shitting everywhere else. The most important context is that if you shit in your caravan you are faced with the issue of doing something about cleaning it up, if you shit on someone else's property and move on you aren't.
> I imagine that would depend if you've been brought up with no education and a staunch belief in what is mochadi, but then I wouldn't want to confuse you with context.
These aren't some isolated Amazonian tribe, they may not have a formal education but they know full well how to interact with modern society. A 'belief' that you shouldn't shit in your caravan can be accommodated without shitting everywhere else. The most important context is that if you shit in your caravan you are faced with the issue of doing something about cleaning it up, if you shit on someone else's property and move on you aren't.
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In reply to Bimble:
Just driven past the original site in question, looks like they've thankfully got the message and moved on to poo on playgrounds new.
Just driven past the original site in question, looks like they've thankfully got the message and moved on to poo on playgrounds new.
In reply to Jimbocz:
I think it is perfectly acceptable to refer to someone defecating in public as an "animal", as that is what animals do. I wouldn't use it to describe travellers generally, but certainly anyone who leaves faeces all over a public place is fair game.
If they don't want to do so in their caravan facilities, they could at least dig a hole using a trowel in a bush and use that.
> There may be a lot of legitimate things to complain about regarding the way some people act, but when you start calling people "animals", you are going down a dark path.
I think it is perfectly acceptable to refer to someone defecating in public as an "animal", as that is what animals do. I wouldn't use it to describe travellers generally, but certainly anyone who leaves faeces all over a public place is fair game.
If they don't want to do so in their caravan facilities, they could at least dig a hole using a trowel in a bush and use that.
Post edited at 19:00
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