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Just did a leaders course at PYB with the missus and loved it- have been sport climbing for the past 4 years so figure since we know that we like climbing we may as well splash the cash and buy a proper rack.
We’ve done a fair few long sport multi-pitches in Europe and know that we tend to prefer multi pitch easy climbing in pretty surroundings. The kind of thing we’d like to do are some of the easier multi pitches in Snowdonia as well as single pitch stuff in the peak (grit and limestone), so we’re looking to buy a fairly complete rack that will cope with that. We’ve got loads of quick draws already but they’re sport ones (Alpha sports with the short thick extenders) so we’ll probably need everything.
As we’re new to trad we’ll probably be doing stuff that we’re ultra-confident from a technical climbing point of view (e.g. V Diffs maybe the odd Severe) so that we can concentrate on our gear placement technique without having to worry about freaking out.
At the moment my proposed rack looks like:
- 8 20 – 30cm long ‘trad’ quick draws
- 5 sling draws (60cm slings plus crabs)
- 2 x sets of DMN Wall nuts 1-11 (we have one set already after experiencing the bolting on some French bolted multi pitch climbs)
- Bunch of HMS screw gates (I have various already)
- Bunch of normal screw gates (likewise I have various)
- 3 or 4 120cm slings for setting up belays etc
- DMN Torque nutes 1-4
- DMN Dragon cams – sizes 2, 3 and 4 (green, red, gold)
Does the above look sensible? Anything obvious I’m missing for our intended targets? (before anyone points out the obvious, I have double and single ropes)
My main question was around Cams and whether I should get 3 or 4 (or 5) – is the blue one worth adding? Obviously it adds expense, but I’d rather spend an additional 50 quid than be annoyed halfway up a climb… I've put Dragons, but from what I can see there is little to choose between them and the camalots, so i'll get which ever it cheapest I guess.
We’ve done a fair few long sport multi-pitches in Europe and know that we tend to prefer multi pitch easy climbing in pretty surroundings. The kind of thing we’d like to do are some of the easier multi pitches in Snowdonia as well as single pitch stuff in the peak (grit and limestone), so we’re looking to buy a fairly complete rack that will cope with that. We’ve got loads of quick draws already but they’re sport ones (Alpha sports with the short thick extenders) so we’ll probably need everything.
As we’re new to trad we’ll probably be doing stuff that we’re ultra-confident from a technical climbing point of view (e.g. V Diffs maybe the odd Severe) so that we can concentrate on our gear placement technique without having to worry about freaking out.
At the moment my proposed rack looks like:
- 8 20 – 30cm long ‘trad’ quick draws
- 5 sling draws (60cm slings plus crabs)
- 2 x sets of DMN Wall nuts 1-11 (we have one set already after experiencing the bolting on some French bolted multi pitch climbs)
- Bunch of HMS screw gates (I have various already)
- Bunch of normal screw gates (likewise I have various)
- 3 or 4 120cm slings for setting up belays etc
- DMN Torque nutes 1-4
- DMN Dragon cams – sizes 2, 3 and 4 (green, red, gold)
Does the above look sensible? Anything obvious I’m missing for our intended targets? (before anyone points out the obvious, I have double and single ropes)
My main question was around Cams and whether I should get 3 or 4 (or 5) – is the blue one worth adding? Obviously it adds expense, but I’d rather spend an additional 50 quid than be annoyed halfway up a climb… I've put Dragons, but from what I can see there is little to choose between them and the camalots, so i'll get which ever it cheapest I guess.
In reply to ewanjp:
Looks pretty comprehensive for a starter rack. Only things I'd suggest is get more than one type of nut if you want two sets i.e. 1 of wallnuts and one of WC Rocks for example. I particularly rate DMM alloy offsets. Also if you want a 4th cam I'd go smaller rather than bigger, so 1, 2, 3 and 4 probably.
Looks pretty comprehensive for a starter rack. Only things I'd suggest is get more than one type of nut if you want two sets i.e. 1 of wallnuts and one of WC Rocks for example. I particularly rate DMM alloy offsets. Also if you want a 4th cam I'd go smaller rather than bigger, so 1, 2, 3 and 4 probably.
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In reply to ewanjp:
If you've already got a set of Wallnuts, a set of the DMM Offsets will complement them nicely and take you up to a total of 16 nuts, which is probably enough for most pitches. Otherwise, if you really feel that you'll need more nuts, Chris's advice re. buying a different set is solid.
As far as the quickdraws go, there are some very good deals on 30 and 60cm slings at the moment (Rock and Run for one) - buying packs of those and lots of karabiners may well be more useful in the long run, particularly if you already have short draws, as you can rack and use extenders just like short draws by doubling them through the krabs, but with the obvious advantage of being able to extend them when necessary.
Also, considering sacking off the hexes and spending that money on an extra cam - hexes aren't much lighter and are generally fiddlier and less useful once you progress past Severe, which won't take long if you're both competent climbers. They're also make an awful racket and are just generally kind of shit and punterish, whereas a nice blue Dragon or equivalent will always be handy and never a source of regret.
With regard to cam selection, the Dragons are generally always cheaper than the Camalots, and the old-style Dragons are reasonable when bought in bulk - three or more and you should be looking at £40 each from most decent specialist shops.
If you've already got a set of Wallnuts, a set of the DMM Offsets will complement them nicely and take you up to a total of 16 nuts, which is probably enough for most pitches. Otherwise, if you really feel that you'll need more nuts, Chris's advice re. buying a different set is solid.
As far as the quickdraws go, there are some very good deals on 30 and 60cm slings at the moment (Rock and Run for one) - buying packs of those and lots of karabiners may well be more useful in the long run, particularly if you already have short draws, as you can rack and use extenders just like short draws by doubling them through the krabs, but with the obvious advantage of being able to extend them when necessary.
Also, considering sacking off the hexes and spending that money on an extra cam - hexes aren't much lighter and are generally fiddlier and less useful once you progress past Severe, which won't take long if you're both competent climbers. They're also make an awful racket and are just generally kind of shit and punterish, whereas a nice blue Dragon or equivalent will always be handy and never a source of regret.
With regard to cam selection, the Dragons are generally always cheaper than the Camalots, and the old-style Dragons are reasonable when bought in bulk - three or more and you should be looking at £40 each from most decent specialist shops.
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In reply to ewanjp:
Cam sizes vary dependant on what you're climbing but if you're carrying the larger hexes then a smaller rather than larger cam will likely prove more useful. I find my most placed are silver, purple and green but then in the cairngorms always manage to use the red and sometimes could get multiples on the same route comfortably. Personally, although the majority of my cams are Dragon's (with BD X4's, offsets and C3's in the smaller sizes), I much prefer the Camelot's. The thumb loop I can take or leave but the extendable sling for me is more hassle than it's worth; they tangle on your harness and are a pain to rack for your second if the situation's a bit pumpy/awkward as they have to shorten the sling if they don't want it banging around their knees. The Dragon's are good, but I can't help thinking in most situations that I'd prefer Camelots. The exception to this is on longer 45+m pitches where you are able to save on the number of draws/extenders that you need. My reasoning for getting the Dragon's was that they're available for significantly less than a full set of Camelot's but having recently used the BD's a bit more I've been convinced they're worth the extra cash.
For nuts I'd suggest going for a different type for your second set, supplementing individual wallnuts if you find them used a lot (the smaller dark blue and red I generally use the most). WC Rocks are good, as are offsets. Even if you do end up with a second set of Wallnuts I'd still suggest a set of Offsets as they just go in where very little else will.
20-30cm draws are good but more often than not (unless perilously close to ledges below) I'll use alpine draws with 60cm slings which can be fed through themselves to create a 20cm sling for racking. For shorter cragging I find the standard draws are fine but on longer and mountain routes the alpine's come into their own for reducing drag.
Cam sizes vary dependant on what you're climbing but if you're carrying the larger hexes then a smaller rather than larger cam will likely prove more useful. I find my most placed are silver, purple and green but then in the cairngorms always manage to use the red and sometimes could get multiples on the same route comfortably. Personally, although the majority of my cams are Dragon's (with BD X4's, offsets and C3's in the smaller sizes), I much prefer the Camelot's. The thumb loop I can take or leave but the extendable sling for me is more hassle than it's worth; they tangle on your harness and are a pain to rack for your second if the situation's a bit pumpy/awkward as they have to shorten the sling if they don't want it banging around their knees. The Dragon's are good, but I can't help thinking in most situations that I'd prefer Camelots. The exception to this is on longer 45+m pitches where you are able to save on the number of draws/extenders that you need. My reasoning for getting the Dragon's was that they're available for significantly less than a full set of Camelot's but having recently used the BD's a bit more I've been convinced they're worth the extra cash.
For nuts I'd suggest going for a different type for your second set, supplementing individual wallnuts if you find them used a lot (the smaller dark blue and red I generally use the most). WC Rocks are good, as are offsets. Even if you do end up with a second set of Wallnuts I'd still suggest a set of Offsets as they just go in where very little else will.
20-30cm draws are good but more often than not (unless perilously close to ledges below) I'll use alpine draws with 60cm slings which can be fed through themselves to create a 20cm sling for racking. For shorter cragging I find the standard draws are fine but on longer and mountain routes the alpine's come into their own for reducing drag.
In reply to ewanjp:
Hi. Ewan.
As per previous posts, your rack looks fine. It also depends on what type of rock you are climbing on most of the time.
After 40yrs I still use Hexes a lot along with cams, especially on Grit where there are more cracks, and they are cheaper too. Cams can slip out of parallel Limestone cracks due to the smoothness of the rock. So take care.
Like most Trad climbers I use double ropes to stop drag etc which means you may need a few more quick draws per rope on longer routes. EG. Limestone.
Have fun.
Hi. Ewan.
As per previous posts, your rack looks fine. It also depends on what type of rock you are climbing on most of the time.
After 40yrs I still use Hexes a lot along with cams, especially on Grit where there are more cracks, and they are cheaper too. Cams can slip out of parallel Limestone cracks due to the smoothness of the rock. So take care.
Like most Trad climbers I use double ropes to stop drag etc which means you may need a few more quick draws per rope on longer routes. EG. Limestone.
Have fun.
Post edited at 17:13
In reply to ewanjp:
If you're only getting three cams, I'd consider getting every other size and going - for example - gold, green and silver. The sizes overlap considerably, so you'll get a much wider range without having gaps if you skip sizes and fill them in later. The sizes you get, as mentioned above, are very dependent on what you climb - on easy grit I find myself placing my gold and large blue mostly, and even the large silver probably gets more regular use than my smaller cams.
If you're only getting three cams, I'd consider getting every other size and going - for example - gold, green and silver. The sizes overlap considerably, so you'll get a much wider range without having gaps if you skip sizes and fill them in later. The sizes you get, as mentioned above, are very dependent on what you climb - on easy grit I find myself placing my gold and large blue mostly, and even the large silver probably gets more regular use than my smaller cams.
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In reply to ewanjp:
2 x sets of DMN Wall nuts 1-11
You don't need double ups in the big sizes. See if you can buy a supplementary set 1-6
I carry
Quads 1-2
Trips - 3-5
Doubles 6-7
Singles 8-10
2 x sets of DMN Wall nuts 1-11
You don't need double ups in the big sizes. See if you can buy a supplementary set 1-6
I carry
Quads 1-2
Trips - 3-5
Doubles 6-7
Singles 8-10
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In reply to ewanjp:
You're overthinking it. I didn't have any cams until I was leading VS - what you already have plus a set of nuts and maybe some hexes will be fine for your immediate ambitions, then you can get more as and when you need it, and you have a better idea of the kind of gear you like using,
You're overthinking it. I didn't have any cams until I was leading VS - what you already have plus a set of nuts and maybe some hexes will be fine for your immediate ambitions, then you can get more as and when you need it, and you have a better idea of the kind of gear you like using,
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In reply to planetmarshall:
I'd again say that depends on the type of rock you climb - some grit routes for example will become either a lot bolder or a lot more awkward to protect without cams.
I'd again say that depends on the type of rock you climb - some grit routes for example will become either a lot bolder or a lot more awkward to protect without cams.
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In reply to ewanjp:
A quick look at your logbook and posting history leads me to think you hail from somewhere south of London, maybe Surrey, and you've climbed on Portland more than anywhere else. If you're going to do your trad apprenticeship at Swanage then for the easier grades I would suggest hexes over cams, a complete set of Wild Country Rockcentrics can be had for £70 and the smallest sizes are roughly the same as size 9 and 10 nuts, this means they pick up where the DMM Alloy Offsets finish, so a complete set of Wallnuts, a set of Alloy Offsets and a set of Rockcentrics cover everything, and you would have duplicates of the size 4 to 11 nuts.
Don't forget a nutkey each and prusik loops if you're going to be abseiling.
A quick look at your logbook and posting history leads me to think you hail from somewhere south of London, maybe Surrey, and you've climbed on Portland more than anywhere else. If you're going to do your trad apprenticeship at Swanage then for the easier grades I would suggest hexes over cams, a complete set of Wild Country Rockcentrics can be had for £70 and the smallest sizes are roughly the same as size 9 and 10 nuts, this means they pick up where the DMM Alloy Offsets finish, so a complete set of Wallnuts, a set of Alloy Offsets and a set of Rockcentrics cover everything, and you would have duplicates of the size 4 to 11 nuts.
Don't forget a nutkey each and prusik loops if you're going to be abseiling.
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In reply to EddInaBox:
Good detective work - I do hail from Surrey and do climb in portland mostly! One of the reasons of trying trad (and doing the course etc) is that we're keen to get into the Peak more, I finished building a camper van in the spring so it's a bit more of a realistic to get out there now. I've done a tiny bit of trad at swanage and I wasn't massively keen to be honest - i'd rather go and do sport on the next crag along. Grit and limestones in nice surroundings (e.g. frogget or Wye valley) does appeal. Should have said we've got nutkeys and prusiks (and we know how to use them!).
Thank you all for the useful comments thus far - certainly food for thought around cams. With the bundles available the incremental cost of 4 or 5 costs isn't ridiculous over 3 cams - that was largely plucked from a chat i had with the instructor at PYB.
I'll def get some hexes - they were quite reassuring to place I found! I'll prob get the offsets rather than doubling up as well on the nut front.
Good detective work - I do hail from Surrey and do climb in portland mostly! One of the reasons of trying trad (and doing the course etc) is that we're keen to get into the Peak more, I finished building a camper van in the spring so it's a bit more of a realistic to get out there now. I've done a tiny bit of trad at swanage and I wasn't massively keen to be honest - i'd rather go and do sport on the next crag along. Grit and limestones in nice surroundings (e.g. frogget or Wye valley) does appeal. Should have said we've got nutkeys and prusiks (and we know how to use them!).
Thank you all for the useful comments thus far - certainly food for thought around cams. With the bundles available the incremental cost of 4 or 5 costs isn't ridiculous over 3 cams - that was largely plucked from a chat i had with the instructor at PYB.
I'll def get some hexes - they were quite reassuring to place I found! I'll prob get the offsets rather than doubling up as well on the nut front.
In reply to ewanjp:
Fairly good article posted my Mike Nolan on here a few weeks back.
http://www.mikenolanmountaineering.co.uk/single-post/2016/08/31/The-perfect...
Will give you a solid idea of what's needed.
Fairly good article posted my Mike Nolan on here a few weeks back.
http://www.mikenolanmountaineering.co.uk/single-post/2016/08/31/The-perfect...
Will give you a solid idea of what's needed.
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In reply to ewanjp:
For rigging belays on many of the grit edges a longer sling often comes in handy (240 or even 400).
The new Wild Country cams have the Camalot thumb loop & the Dragon extending sling too, & are the cheapest @ Outside in Hathersage (not a bargain retail outlet).
For grit cams are very (very,very) useful - big blue, yellow, red, green & purple are my essentials (but bigger & smaller are also frequently used).
Also love the DMM offset nuts.
For Welsh mountain multipitch & limestone trad I don't bother with cams, but I take loads of extra nuts (offsets, minis, brass offsets, WC giant nuts - 11 to 14, hexes)
For rigging belays on many of the grit edges a longer sling often comes in handy (240 or even 400).
The new Wild Country cams have the Camalot thumb loop & the Dragon extending sling too, & are the cheapest @ Outside in Hathersage (not a bargain retail outlet).
For grit cams are very (very,very) useful - big blue, yellow, red, green & purple are my essentials (but bigger & smaller are also frequently used).
Also love the DMM offset nuts.
For Welsh mountain multipitch & limestone trad I don't bother with cams, but I take loads of extra nuts (offsets, minis, brass offsets, WC giant nuts - 11 to 14, hexes)
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In reply to ewanjp:
I'd definitely recommend the offsets, they're the dog's danglies and I regularly find myself at the top of a route with only one left, they fit everywhere!
For grit cams are a godsend, if you want an explanation of how much so go and second someone on Hargreaves' Original (VS 4c) and look at what you've stripped off the route when you top out. Do be careful with how you place them as poorly placed cams can be absolute bastards to remove. Personally I use dragon cams and regularly carry 0-5 (small silver to big blue), the ability to extend them is very helpful, I still often put 25cm extenders on them too when multipitching!
Quickdraws wise you look good. 13 quickdraws is quite a lot, don't expect to take them all on every route you do but you'll welcome them on long pitches (I think I used 10 on a 39m long pitch the other week but also placed most of my cams extended).
I'd definitely recommend the offsets, they're the dog's danglies and I regularly find myself at the top of a route with only one left, they fit everywhere!
For grit cams are a godsend, if you want an explanation of how much so go and second someone on Hargreaves' Original (VS 4c) and look at what you've stripped off the route when you top out. Do be careful with how you place them as poorly placed cams can be absolute bastards to remove. Personally I use dragon cams and regularly carry 0-5 (small silver to big blue), the ability to extend them is very helpful, I still often put 25cm extenders on them too when multipitching!
Quickdraws wise you look good. 13 quickdraws is quite a lot, don't expect to take them all on every route you do but you'll welcome them on long pitches (I think I used 10 on a 39m long pitch the other week but also placed most of my cams extended).
In reply to spenser:
I climb at around Severe. I usually carry 10 quickdraws plus a sling draw, and usually find this sufficient even on long pitches. I usually extend cams as well as this reduces the chance of them walking into the crack, but it means I use more quickdraws. If I do find I'm running short I'll dispense with this, and I usually carry 4 slings which can be used as runners. A mega-long sling is really useful for belays.
Cams are very useful on grit but they do need to be placed properly. If not, not only can they be difficult to remove but they can fail in a fall. The problem with cams is that its very easy to just whack one in, but if they're not placed correctly they may not be much good, and they may not be reliable on limestone. Don't buy too many to start with, you'll soon realise what sizes you're missing once you've done a few climbs. I have only 5 cams, ranging from 1/2 to 3, but they were all chosen when I decided I needed something of that size.
I also carry a set of hexes. You can't beat the feeling of placing a good solid hex - just bomber.
I climb at around Severe. I usually carry 10 quickdraws plus a sling draw, and usually find this sufficient even on long pitches. I usually extend cams as well as this reduces the chance of them walking into the crack, but it means I use more quickdraws. If I do find I'm running short I'll dispense with this, and I usually carry 4 slings which can be used as runners. A mega-long sling is really useful for belays.
Cams are very useful on grit but they do need to be placed properly. If not, not only can they be difficult to remove but they can fail in a fall. The problem with cams is that its very easy to just whack one in, but if they're not placed correctly they may not be much good, and they may not be reliable on limestone. Don't buy too many to start with, you'll soon realise what sizes you're missing once you've done a few climbs. I have only 5 cams, ranging from 1/2 to 3, but they were all chosen when I decided I needed something of that size.
I also carry a set of hexes. You can't beat the feeling of placing a good solid hex - just bomber.
In reply to ewanjp:
Personally I'd go slowly in building a rack. That is because what you ultimately prefer will not be the same as anyone else. Ideally you will be climbing with other climbers who own a rack so you will start to feel what you like about their rack and what you don't. I'd start with a set of wires, maybe 6 quick draws, a few slings and a few spare krabs and maybe one or two cams - save your money on other cams until you know what works for you.
My first rack was just a 2 friend and a 3 friend (old style, actually they were quadcams). That's because the people I climbed with already had wires but hardly any cams.
I find the blue camelot (size 3) very useful as my main 'big' gear on long mountain routes, but it wouldn't be my first purchase.
Personally I'd go slowly in building a rack. That is because what you ultimately prefer will not be the same as anyone else. Ideally you will be climbing with other climbers who own a rack so you will start to feel what you like about their rack and what you don't. I'd start with a set of wires, maybe 6 quick draws, a few slings and a few spare krabs and maybe one or two cams - save your money on other cams until you know what works for you.
My first rack was just a 2 friend and a 3 friend (old style, actually they were quadcams). That's because the people I climbed with already had wires but hardly any cams.
I find the blue camelot (size 3) very useful as my main 'big' gear on long mountain routes, but it wouldn't be my first purchase.
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In reply to ewanjp:
Hi Ewan,
As somebody has already mentioned, check out my article for a fairly comprehensive description of what to buy http://www.mikenolanmountaineering.co.uk/single-post/2016/08/31/The-perfect...
What you've listed so far looks great, and is a very good start. I would recommend swapping the second set of DMM Wallnuts for another brand (I use Wild Country Rocks) as they give you a bigger variety of options. I would then add a set of offsets too.
Your quickdraws sound fine. I rarely carry more than 12 unless I'm on something particularly long, but remember you can always clip straight into the sling on your cams and hexes.
With cams, I'd definitely say get what you can afford, and aim for 0-5 for now. I've never needed the large silver (6) one, it's too big and heavy anyway!
I generally only carry one spare large HMS and 2 spare D-Shaped karabiners , so you can ditch some of yours.
Hope that's useful!
Mike
Hi Ewan,
As somebody has already mentioned, check out my article for a fairly comprehensive description of what to buy http://www.mikenolanmountaineering.co.uk/single-post/2016/08/31/The-perfect...
What you've listed so far looks great, and is a very good start. I would recommend swapping the second set of DMM Wallnuts for another brand (I use Wild Country Rocks) as they give you a bigger variety of options. I would then add a set of offsets too.
Your quickdraws sound fine. I rarely carry more than 12 unless I'm on something particularly long, but remember you can always clip straight into the sling on your cams and hexes.
With cams, I'd definitely say get what you can afford, and aim for 0-5 for now. I've never needed the large silver (6) one, it's too big and heavy anyway!
I generally only carry one spare large HMS and 2 spare D-Shaped karabiners , so you can ditch some of yours.
Hope that's useful!
Mike
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In reply to ewanjp:
I can't believe no ones pointed out the biggest error, you'll have an odd number of quick draws and that's just wrong!
I can't believe no ones pointed out the biggest error, you'll have an odd number of quick draws and that's just wrong!
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In reply to ewanjp:
Worth getting dedicated snapgates for each cam, especially if you go for DMM ones with the extendable slings. The colour coded snapgates that match the cam colour are ridiculously useful for identifying gear clipped to your gear loops.
Worth getting dedicated snapgates for each cam, especially if you go for DMM ones with the extendable slings. The colour coded snapgates that match the cam colour are ridiculously useful for identifying gear clipped to your gear loops.
In reply to jezb1:
Brilliant! I lost a quickdraw on my last outing and now have 11. I find this unacceptable despite being plenty for all the climbing I'll be doing in the near future.
DMM Chimera, hmmmm.........
Brilliant! I lost a quickdraw on my last outing and now have 11. I find this unacceptable despite being plenty for all the climbing I'll be doing in the near future.
DMM Chimera, hmmmm.........
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In reply to Otis:
And if you're going for the colour-coded rack pack to go with the Dragon's then the WC Helium's work a lot nicer than the smaller DMM Phantom/Spectre binners. They slide out of the sling much more readily when it comes to extending them out and for the sake of an extra tenner, they're definitely worth it (IMO of course).
And if you're going for the colour-coded rack pack to go with the Dragon's then the WC Helium's work a lot nicer than the smaller DMM Phantom/Spectre binners. They slide out of the sling much more readily when it comes to extending them out and for the sake of an extra tenner, they're definitely worth it (IMO of course).
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In reply to Mike Nolan:
No dramas mate.. I'm sure Jez did a good one too but yours is better 😉.
No dramas mate.. I'm sure Jez did a good one too but yours is better 😉.
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In reply to Howard J:
Hexes are also good on some types of rock where the cracks are full of knobbles - some granite & limestone for instance - where cams just won't sit as securely on the knobbles but a hex will be bomber. Some people are dismissive of hexes, but I think they're under-rated.
Hexes are also good on some types of rock where the cracks are full of knobbles - some granite & limestone for instance - where cams just won't sit as securely on the knobbles but a hex will be bomber. Some people are dismissive of hexes, but I think they're under-rated.
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