UKC

So.....reading a book about crack technique, pretty comprehensive as it happens, however it left me with one thought and an unanswered question. So to set the scene, I have avoided squeeze chimneys for the best part of 16 years, I am also borderline claustrophobic with a barrel chest. But equally feel I need to gain experience in all types of climbing.

So the unresolved question is.......how do you know your gonna fit? Is there a go/no go gauge people use?

Could there be anything worse than actually getting stuck halfway up? Any lessons/horror stories?

Wayne

In reply to Wayne S:

If I couldn't turn my head around inside it, I'd feel a little uncomfortable I think! This has meant going helmetless on most occasions though..

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Pretty sure my chest is deeper than helmet, so maybe not the best gauge for me. Though that said, little measured outriggers off the helmet, a bit like cats whiskers might work!

In reply to Wayne S:

From experience, take your helmet off if you know it's going to be narrow. There's nothing worse than getting stuck because of your helmet, and not being able to even get your arms up to take it off or deal with. It's a pathetic feeling, and not in the slightest bit funny. Not at the time, at least.

Getting your helmet stuck is a good gauge the chimney is getting tight.

It might be a good idea to remove the helmet before getting it stuck. Last time I found myself in this situation I was a bit slow on the uptake and got my helmet firmly wedged during an udge and was unable to move any limb for fear of falling.

The moment before it came free was very unpleasant, I was run out a long way (as is common in chimneys) on a hanging chimney above a nasty looking ledge. I was in a most uncomfortable and strenuous position mid udge with my head stuck at a crazy angle and only able to look down at the long and unpleasant fall that awaited me (once the strap broke). Desperate, manic head wobbling freed the helmet, I completed the move blind with my head twisted back and the helmet over my eyes.

In reply to Wayne S:



This is what Steve Ashton once described as "climbing out of a misguided sense of duty".

You should quash these feelings now.

Before you are quashed yourself.

In reply to duchessofmalfi:
Your not selling the idea of squeeze chimneys to me if I'm honest, perhaps I should try golf! I'm going to have to measure helmet depth and chest depth now! What was the route? From your description I'm sure a que will soon be forming!

In reply to Wayne S:

Definitely remove the helmet, also perhaps this is obvious but don't wear too many clothes, thick fleeces etc.

Try and work out which way you're likely to be facing and so rack the bulk of the gear on the outside side. Large cams getting in the way will hamper progress and nothing worse than needing to place gear but not being able to reach it!

In reply to Michael Gordon:

All great advice, and pretty much the mirror of what I have read. But my question remains, when is it a NO I won't fit!? Perhaps if for an individual if it becomes probably NO then you should be able to climb the outside of the crack using offwidth technique? Though I'm sure this wouldn't always be the case. Perhaps I'm making this over complicated!

In reply to Wayne S:


I know what you mean, and I am not making fun of your or anyone else's claustrophobia if any, but here's my little joke -

I'm far more likely to get agoraphobia on Great Slab at Froggatt than claustrophobia. I feel very safe stuck in a chimney: certainly safer than on a bold blank open slab.

Joke over. I actually prefer slabs [protected or not] to cracks.

In reply to Wayne S:

I am told that most males can get through if their head and shoulders will go through. Personally I don't believe it.

In reply to Wayne S:


I think you just have to exercise your judgement beforehand. If you can't get in then it most likely will be desperate - an offwidth is usually much more difficult than a squeeze chimney.

In reply to Wayne S:

Reminds me of my friend telling me about some guys wandering through the Arapalies camp site late at night asking if anyone had any lubricant! Apparently their friend was trapped in the well known boulder squeeze problem. He was there for some hours before the fire crew came to get him out.

Like you I have a fear of confined spaces and getting trapped in them.
Unlike you I feel no need to put myself through them to become a well rounded climber (probably the opposite of the shape you want for these), I'm happy with avoidance.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

It's a nice and convenient to think that if head and chest fit at the start then you are good for the whole journey. But I am sceptical! Am I missing the obvious, is the situation simply more reversible than I am imagining? i.e. Go try and if it gets too tight run away by slithering back down.

In reply to Wayne S:

Breathing out all the way gives you a good couple of centimetres extra room, call it a breath jam.
There are gender issues too, how can i put it politely- in the chest area, that give males a bit of an advantage.

In reply to althesin:

It's important to remember though that if you got into a space by breathing all the way out and pushing, it's entirely possible that you won't be able to get any further...

To the OP, in the right circumstances you can get a no hands, no feet rest and do "snow angels" just by wedging your chest in place.

In the wrong circumstances... well, a few years back a guy got stuck in a squeeze bouldering problem in wales and had to be rescued by the police with a jack. I can't find a link now.

In reply to althesin:

Women are generally smaller though which helps!

In reply to Wayne S:

I like squeeze chimneys, as there is virtually no way of falling out of them. You can always jam feet to knees, knees to arse, belly only, chest only, chest and shoulders, head jams if necessary, ....

I am rather heavily built (179cm, 100kg) , so I often need to resort to that style while my partners are still chimneying normally.

Solid offwidth technique also helps against the fear of getting stuck. Once a chimney gets too narrow for udging and grunting you can usually move towards the face (not fully out) and use heel/toe jams, chicken wings, arm and shoulder bars to get around the constriction.

Usually the main obstacle is the harness, though, not the helmet. I have climbed one chimney here in Saxony where I took off my harness, and tied the rope to my leg instead and hauled the harness and gear up before belaying my second. As I said, you can´t fall out of a full body jam anyway.

CB

In reply to davidbeynon:

True though, a beer gut is normally rather compressible.

CB

In reply to Wayne S:

From my experience (maybe Im a strange body type!), it is always my hips/waist that limits the size of chimney i can fit in. In Monolith Crack I could fit my head and shoulders in no problem, with a bit of nose scraping, but it took some force to get my hips in! Luckily that one widens up a bit once you're in there!

In reply to Wayne S:


Guidebook description (plus maybe some extra clues from logbook notes), and how the route looks from the ground. There isn't a guarantee, of course. For what it's worth, If I'm uncomfortably squeezed in I try to calm down and remember that there's likely to be an optimum body position and orientation which I haven't yet found.

..... just recently I got a stuck for a while in the top squeeze chimney of Hayloft at Sennen, before realising that I needed to lower slightly and turn to face the other wall; then it was a doddle. ( I am more or less average build though).

In reply to Wayne S:

A caving mate of mine says you should go through squeezes with your arms out in front of you - if they're by your side you can't use them to pull yourself through.
My top tip - have your chalkbag on a string rather than your harness so you can slide it round to your side.

In reply to Wayne S:

If you have to breath out to get your chest through its a proper squeeze and a bit risky as such; if not, its about wiggle strength and stamina. Some chimneys described as 'squeeze' are not (they are tight) and some squeeze chimneys are not squeezes if you are small and slim.

I'd get lots of experience on tight chimneys and then beta on easier squeezes if you intend to try anything tighter, as things can go wrong... someone got stuck inside the Cromlech boulders a few years back.

In reply to Toerag:

Also all gear on a bandolier. It won't be much

In reply to Toerag:


This is true for through routes but not conventional squeeze chimneys where you would usually have to push down off the sides to make progress.

In reply to davidbeynon:


My caver associates tell me this is true. They also say that the same isn't generally true of women as their hips are wider.

Of course it doesn't take into account the strength needed to actually pull trough (anyone tried, or witnessed the infamous waggon wheel challenge in the Hill Inn ?)

In reply to GrahamD:

That implies that women should climb such things backwards. An impressive feat, to hang by the feet.

In reply to davidbeynon:

... or at least pad the shoulders out to act as a 'feeler gauge'

In reply to Wayne S:

One tip that might not seem obvious. Make sure you're going to be warm enough. Making slow progress through a tight squeeze with freezing cold rock pressing you on both sides and a howling gale blowing through tends to give an impending sense of doom (Devil's Chimney at Stanage on one cold New Year's Day).

In reply to Offwidth:

Steve, wondering if guide book contibuters need arming with measurement calipers as standard issue? Could then grade on a sliding scale along the lines of:

Chest 36 Inch, HVD
Chest 38 inch, Severe
Chest 40 inch, Hard Severe
Chest 44+ XS

Good advice, I once spent 20 mins trying to exit Sail Chimney, jamming solid every time I took a breath to finish the last move, only when I leant to breath out to make the move did I get out. Would be interested in what size of person has made it through Helfenstein's Struggle (HVD 4a) . I'm about a 46"+ chest and bottled it and went round the outside of the boulder, should I have gone for it, or was it a good call!

In reply to Wayne S: I think you made the right call with Helfenstein's - I've got half-way through several times but there's a bit of rock that just gets stuck in my chest and I'm definitely less than 46".

In reply to Michael Hood:

I got through helfensteins (d) with difficulty, the inside route (vd) at raven crag with less difficulty but was comprehensively repulsed by under milk wood (vs) and telescope tunnel (m).

Not sure how much you can read into it.

In reply to GrahamD:

Now I need mind bleach, thinking of female climbers in Dynasty style 1980s gigaton hairdos and shoulder pads.

CB

In reply to Wayne S:

You could always build a squeeze machine (often found in caving club huts) to see whats really possible!

In reply to cb294:

The hairdos are like whiskers on a cat.

In reply to Michael Hood:

I just got through with some interesting contorting.. not sure on chest size but waist of 30inch.

In reply to Wayne S:

Anyone know any hard UK chimneys?

In reply to ashtond6:

Define "Hard".

I know some diff chimneys that have made steady HVS climbers get very upset.

In reply to davidbeynon:



Harder than tower chimney would be good

In reply to Wayne S:

Its a bit more complicated and lot more varied in difficulty than that. Some old mods I found impossible... just too tight. I never got through Helfenstein's but had bruised ribs from trying ( I'm a bit barrel chested ). Flexibility and 3D awareness is also important.

If you look in the recent series of BMC guides we put grit caving trips in the Burbage Stanage and Froggatt guides (Troglodytes tours)... they are good wet weather tests but the hardest are narrow and very hard. Even our best testers could get them wrong at times... there is one at Dovers Wall where, after much struggle, my mates head finally popped up first (arms should nearly always go through first) and then he got stuck... a local dog being walked found this facinating and nearly licked him to death while the rest of the crew nearly died laughing.

In reply to ashtond6:


Not a squeeze chimney I don't think (I suspect pretty wide) but there's an E3 at Binnien Shuas with the tag 'the scariest chimney climb in Scotland'!

In reply to Wayne S:

I had to take my harness off, back when I was skinnier than I am now.

I used to specialise in this sort of thing when I was younger, including quite a bit of Mendip silliness and once doing slot in the Bournbrook wall at Birmingham University. I did nearly die squeezing between the H-section beam and the ceiling in the Count House (Caroline's Route) due to a belt buckle and post-pub impairment. It was a shock when I started find things a bit tight, quite recently. It really isn't a beer gut, it's upper body, honest.

In reply to Wayne S:

If you've waited 16 years you may have left it too late for some squeezes, as there is some time dependency. I could do Monolith Crack on the Gribin Facet when I was 18, but can't do it now. My chest size appears to have got a little bigger, so that even tactics like stripping down to a T-shirt, breathing out and trying to crawl in horizontally (plus using a direct waist-tie in place of a harness) don't work.

You only know you're not going to fit by actually trying. Rhododendron Crack at Rivelin was a good size test for me - a tight squeeze most of the way, but it narrows down very slightly just before good holds arrive, so I had to pop out of it and use off-width technique (or simply thrutch, as we used to call it).

One of the best stories - reprinted in the excellent book "Fast and Free" - is Livesey and Fawcett repeating Astroman, as Ron had a lot of trouble following the Harding Slot, a tight chimney. He's known as Big Ron for a good reason! "Yer little bastard, yer little bastard!", but it's not clear if Ron was talking about the rock or Pete.

In reply to Rob Davies:
I got close to getting inside on Monolith but terrifed my partner as I was working in fully exhaled and being a bit slow. I eventually did the escape route instead (fully outside the gully on the right: really neat). I also offwidthed up and down the outside of the slot to test it out (HVS ish). Like several report here, my chest has got wider front to back with age as numerous things I did easily for the BMC guides are now tight on my ribs and the previous tight ones now feel impossible. Its always fun to watch others.

In reply to petegunn:

I got through ~16.4cm at Eurospeleo this year, but with some pain for about an hour... :P
My even skinnier friend got through sub-16cm (both of us male).
When I'm not a little bit chubbier, the limiting factor is normally chest width top to bottom, but at the moment it's also width across the top of the pelvis (?) (a few inches lower than the belly button; bum is OK as it can be squashed through!)
(squeeze machines are generally a lot wider than they are high so width is rarely relevant)

In reply to Wayne S:

I'm a little claustrophobic, not bad a cracks in general, and a have a hatred of squeeze chimneys! I can do offwidth (well, I can grovel and lose skin as well as most) and wider chimneys are a...doable. But I HATE squeeze.

Just back from a trip to the US and 2 chimneys come to mind - the final 5.7 sandy piece of sh!t that was the last pitch of Lightning Bolt Cracks on the North 6 Shooter, Utah: https://www.mountainproject.com/v/lightning-bolt-cracks/105717598

I chose to go "inside" as there were some ledges to pause at and some hint of potential protection. I had to take my helmet off and had a few panicky moments when I was fully wedged, no up, down, for or aft movement!

And, not so much a squeeze chimney, but certainly a squeeze - popping through the "Birth Canal" on the Red Dihedral of the Incredible Hulk. I was pretty sure I wasn't going to be released from that vice grip!

In reply to andrewmcleod:

Its a shame we never had an actual true measurement, usually someone would grab something to hand i.e. wine bottles, beer cans etc and see who could fit through. Many entertaining nights spent in caving club huts : )

In reply to Wayne S:

Having read this thread I am just never doing a route with a chimney in it. Never ever.

In reply to BusyLizzie:

I dunno, what's the worst that could happen ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

In reply to BusyLizzie:

Some chimneys are gloriously open and pleasant... lovely bridging on plentiful good holds.

In reply to Wayne S:

One mans squeeze chimney is another mans off width.

And skinny gals squeeze chimney might be big blokes wide hands .

So what ever reads in the guidebook is generally for a "normal" sized person and perhaps not that useful... I do like the system they use in Indian Creek and other US crack routes, where they simply tell how wide it is (in inches, but with that I can live with)... you can then make up your own mind on how to tackle it (or not).

Giving the darn obvious camalot or friend size is also a good measurement.

That said, I do have a funny story about a nice chimney with a narrowing. I was leading it an a relative n00b was going to second it. So when I got to the narrow spot, my ancient Ecrin Roc became stuck on the flake and would not budge upwards. Since I had a lovely bomber cam on the crack below I simply unclipped the brain bucket and then clipped it to the rope with a quickdraw so it would not fall down. The n00b was a bit skeptical and also amused about my set of protection, namely the helmet.

In reply to Wayne S:

Squeeze chimneys are horrible. Upward movement requires the ability to to wriggle inside your skin which provides friction (loads of it) against the chimney walls, and at the same time try to wriggle/propel yourself vaguely upwards before utter exhaustion sets in.

Next time you consider doing a climb involving a squeeze chimney remind yourself that that you climb for fun, and go and choose a nice slab somewhere else.......

In reply to Wayne S:

Im a fairly stocky guy, 5ft10 and 95kg and i love chimneys and only nearly got stuck in a couple. As long as you can calm yourself and keep your breathing smooth, you should always be able to go back the way you came if it gets too tight - I mean you got into it in the first place right? Or in my case accidentally lower myself into a constriction and take 15 minutes of grunting, shoving and laughing to get my fat arse back out

Also, if you do ever get stuck, a nice way to stop yourself from panicking is to remind yourself that while you're stuck, your belayer can run around to the top and drop you down a rescue line quite easily seeing as you arent going anywhere any time soon.

In reply to Wayne S:

If the chimney is deep enough and a little flared at the very outside, sidewinder technique can sometimes get you past a constriction. http://www.climbing.com/skills/tech-tip-trad-sidewinder/

In reply to petegunn:

hence the Exeter legend of the 'coke can Plym' (i.e. from Plymouth)...

In reply to Offwidth:


And some are bloody terrifying ! Elbenstein chimneys in particular where they are all open and peasant until you realise you are now 10m above your last runner and that's a sling over a soft sandstone flake.

In reply to GrahamD:

Exactly. Many of the technically easiest routes up the most famous towers (usually called "old" route as they were used for the first ascent) involve up to 40 or 50m of bridging and stemming, sometimes without a single piece of pro (or possibly some threads or, if you are really lucky a bolt, every ten meters or so).

For example this:

https://www.deutsche-digitale-bibliothek.de/binary/YPAPWNDATR2HQEHVGDZRW4ID...

which leads up here

http://www.quackensturm.de/index.php/galerie/image?view=image&format=ra...



Thanks but no thanks, give me a technically harder but protectable route any day.

CB

In reply to cb294:

Thats a great picture ! brings back 'happy' memories. Thanks

In reply to GrahamD:

Not mine, though...

CB

In reply to Wayne S:

As a relative newby to climbing outdoors, I found this thread really interesting.... but the thought of getting stuck is terrifying!!

In reply to Rob Davies:


See also Jerry's account of crying whilst trying to second Ron Kauk on the same pitch.

In reply to AlanLittle:


I concur. It's an absolute sod of a pitch for anyone not able to get a job as an extra in The Hobbit.

I actually threw up seconding the pitch - 5.9 my bloody arse!