UKC

Embarrassment for UKIP or an emabarrassment for all of us ?

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 GrahamD 07 Oct 2016
Initial reactions to the UKIP fracas was what a bunch of muppets ! but then I got to thinking: how on earth did we allow these people to become our representatives in Europe ? I have an uneasy feeling that by not taking European elections seriously in this country, we end up with the representation we deserve. And this is it.
 nastyned 07 Oct 2016
In reply to GrahamD:

They're noting to do with me so I feel no embarrassment. In fact I'm quite enjoying it, if they're going to start punching each other perhaps I'll be able to stop tracking them down to spit on them!
6
 Trangia 07 Oct 2016
In reply to GrahamD:

Right wing thugs?
2
OP GrahamD 07 Oct 2016
In reply to nastyned:

Your MEPs are nothing to do with you ? no wonder people think the EU is undemocratic.
1
OP GrahamD 07 Oct 2016
In reply to Trangia:

> Right wing thugs?

Whatever 'wing' they are thugs, but they are also elected. So how come, collectively, do we allow these thugs to be our representatives in the European Parliament ? The possibilities are uncomfortable:

Either we (collectively, as a country) are too apathetic to care who represents us in Europe or we (collectively, as a country) agree with the representatives we have.
 MG 07 Oct 2016
In reply to GrahamD:

It is embarrassing. I think you are right - and more generally political disengagement has led to this, and also the likes of Andrea Leadsom, Jeremy Corbyn, Liam Fox and Diane Abbot in influential positions. And then there is Trump... I think we are all doomed.
3
 Chris the Tall 07 Oct 2016
In reply to GrahamD:

Yep, it's embarrassing, just as Trump's popularity is embarrassing for Liberal Americans. The problem is that the antics of these people doesn't affect their popularity - they represent a growing number of people who don't care about facts, and who aren't bothered about violence, racism, sexism etc.
2
 nastyned 07 Oct 2016
In reply to GrahamD:

Nope, I never voted for any of them, and I'm opposed to the whole institution. So nothing to do with me and I feel no responsibility for any of their actions.
7
 jkarran 07 Oct 2016
In reply to Chris the Tall:

> ...they represent a growing number of people who don't care about facts, and who aren't bothered about violence, racism, sexism etc.

I'm not sure that number is growing or at least by that I mean as a fraction of society, it just seems, largely as a result of our disastrous referendum they currently have have ear of those in power. Those who are too spineless or personally ambitious to challenge this wave of long suppressed retrograde bigotry, choosing instead to feed it and ride it wherever it may take them.
jk
Post edited at 11:55
2
 Dave Garnett 07 Oct 2016
In reply to nastyned:

> Nope, I never voted for any of them, and I'm opposed to the whole institution. So nothing to do with me and I feel no responsibility for any of their actions.

But you did vote for someone, right? Otherwise, you did vote for them.
1
 nastyned 07 Oct 2016
In reply to Dave Garnett:

No, and no.
7
 Yanis Nayu 07 Oct 2016
In reply to GrahamD:

Yes, they are an embarrassment. Apparently the kipper in hospital has said he's sick of croissants and is looking forward to a full English breakfast, so it's nice to see he's back to his nationalistic, small- minded best.
 Yanis Nayu 07 Oct 2016
In reply to nastyned:

Whether you voted for them or not, they're representing the uk abroad, a bit like football fans do. In fact, almost exactly like football fans...
1
 the sheep 07 Oct 2016
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

> Whether you voted for them or not, they're representing the uk abroad, a bit like football fans do. In fact, almost exactly like football fans...

Sad but true, we can only hope they all turn on each other, beat themselves to a bloody pulp and crawl off to die in an unmarked grave...
2
 MG 07 Oct 2016
In reply to nastyned:

Doesn't work like that. Like or not, you are part of society, if you do nothing (don't vote), you are tacitly accepting whoever is elected. Opting out isn't possible.
1
 stevieb 07 Oct 2016
In reply to GrahamD:

I'm no fan of UKIP, or of violence, but is two grown men both choosing to have a one-on-one fist fight really that appalling?
2
 Oceanrower 07 Oct 2016
In reply to stevieb:

> I'm no fan of UKIP, or of violence, but is two grown men both choosing to have a one-on-one fist fight really that appalling?

Well, it got Jeremy Clarkson the sack.
 stevieb 07 Oct 2016
In reply to Oceanrower:

Didn't Clarkson just hit somebody that worked for him and didn't feel he could hit back?
Did the other guy hit back at all?
I'm not saying it's a good thing, but if they both 'stepped outside' with the same intentions , and both fought fair, then at least its honest
3
 Dave Garnett 07 Oct 2016
In reply to stevieb:

> I'm no fan of UKIP, or of violence, but is two grown men both choosing to have a one-on-one fist fight really that appalling?

Yes, if they are elected representatives whose whole function is to debate and negotiate in an intelligent, civilised manner - and then they end up resorting to physical violence in a parliament, of all places.

Actually there now seems to be some debate as to exactly what happened. Woolfe says that when he took his coat off and said he wanted to take it outside he only meant that they should discuss it somewhere quieter... Hookem says he didn't thump anyone, and there's some story about a door opening suddenly.
Clauso 07 Oct 2016
In reply to stevieb:

> I'm not saying it's a good thing, but if they both 'stepped outside' with the same intentions , and both fought fair, then at least its honest

Extending this slightly; if we're now at the point where our politicians establish their authority courtesy of their pugilistic prowess, then how long before Tyson Fury takes his place in 10 Downing Street? Will he do a better job?
Lusk 07 Oct 2016
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> Actually there now seems to be some debate as to exactly what happened. Woolfe says that when he took his coat off ...

To cover up the story.
I guess we'll never know what happened.
 AP Melbourne 07 Oct 2016
In reply to MG:

> Doesn't work like that. Like or not, you are part of society, if you do nothing (don't vote), you are tacitly accepting whoever is elected. Opting out isn't possible.

Totally agree with MG here. Don't vote, don't grumble afterwards. Simple!
Sure its all a complete mess but the collective 'we' could surely ,,,,,
Bored now, G'night.
 JJL 07 Oct 2016
In reply to GrahamD:

Embarassing in the same way football hooligans in England shirts are.
 nastyned 07 Oct 2016
In reply to MG:

There's a lot more to political activity than accepting the status quo and putting an X on a piece of paper every few years.
3
 althesin 07 Oct 2016
In reply to GrahamD:

I think the European elections have probably always been used as a "protest" against European integration. I think a well run media campaign of ridiculing Europe over many years worked very well. Proportional representation ensured that UKIP took lots of the seats and that clearly demonstrated to Europe that we don't take them seriously, then we're gobsmacked by the referendum result?
 stevieb 07 Oct 2016
In reply to Clauso:

Judging from the last few elections, I think there's quite a few people in this country whose views align with Tyson.
I personally prefer the more progressive political beliefs of Anthony Joshua
baron 07 Oct 2016
In reply to GrahamD:
While not advocating violence I'd be happy if more politicians showed a greater degree of emotion rather than the soulless, bland affair that passes for politics in the UK.
1
OP GrahamD 07 Oct 2016
In reply to nastyned:

> There's a lot more to political activity than accepting the status quo and putting an X on a piece of paper every few years.

But putting your X in the box is the first step in a democracy, and if you (and millions of others) can't be arsed to do even that, as a country we are exactly where we deserve to be.
1
 Bootrock 07 Oct 2016
In reply to GrahamD:


Who said its anything about not being arsed?

If there was a "none of the above" option, I would be more inclined to go and vote.

If there was a way of differentiating between spoiled and protest ballots, then we can see something.

Everyone has a democratic right to vote or not vote. And I am every bit entitled to bitch about the system, because if I feel likeI can't choose a correct party and policies, then it's not a good selection. And I should have a right to tell them all to F*ck off.


There's only so much phallas you can draw on a ballot paper, Before you get sick of bothering to put the effort in.


7
 Trangia 07 Oct 2016
In reply to GrahamD:

I used the term "right wing" because thuggery of this sort is reminiscent up to a point, of Oswald Mosley's party's behaviour, although to be fair I haven't seen any evidence of UKIP followers getting involved in street brawls. However such behaviour starts from the top.

I agree with your sentiments.
 Trangia 07 Oct 2016
In reply to stevieb:

> I'm no fan of UKIP, or of violence, but is two grown men both choosing to have a one-on-one fist fight really that appalling?

Yes it is. The reason lies in your use of the words "grown men".

Adults should be capable of rising above resorting to violence when they disagree.
 Trangia 07 Oct 2016
In reply to stevieb:

> Didn't Clarkson just hit somebody that worked for him and didn't feel he could hit back?

> Did the other guy hit back at all?

> I'm not saying it's a good thing, but if they both 'stepped outside' with the same intentions , and both fought fair, then at least its honest

Honest but degrading to both parties.
 Pete Pozman 07 Oct 2016
In reply to Clauso:

> Extending this slightly; if we're now at the point where our politicians establish their authority courtesy of their pugilistic prowess, then how long before Tyson Fury takes his place in 10 Downing Street? Will he do a better job?

The world sees this : Tyson mixing it down in Marseilles, if I remember, with the "fans" during the Euros, Farage's last swaggering performance in the EU Parliament, the Brexit vote, Rudd's speech and now these clowns pushing and shoving each other, falling over and now offering "the hand of friendship"; going down to 6th largest economy etc.
We have made ourselves an utter laughing stock.
If Trump can be President of the USA, Tyson Fury can be our Prime Minister. Do not laugh. This is all getting way beyond a funny joke.
1
 stevieb 07 Oct 2016
In reply to Trangia:

I agree that this fight was in no way a good thing, but I actually have far more problem with the civilised mendacity which is the norm in U.K. Politics. Every party tells us that their budgets will add up due to efficiency savings only they can make to NHS or local councils; they ring Fence funding to the NHS, but hammer associated services in social care with inevitable knock ons; decisions about wars in Iraq, Syria and Libya seem to be more closely related to party politics than world or national interest; brexit promises all the benefits of the single market and total control on immigration. This level of dishonesty is far more of a problem to me than one set piece fight between two consenting adults
 colinakmc 07 Oct 2016
In reply to stevieb:

The reason we have politics at all is to achieve peaceful resolution of conflicting issues wherever possible so tweedledum and tweedledee have demonstrated a fundamental failure. However they're ukippers so maybe only to be expected. I've no opinion as to how we got the Tory tranch who are now calling the shots (im from Scotland) but the issue with Labour is much more complex than disengagement. There's been a long term failure to make a core Left agenda that's relevant to the 21st century (Blairism being about stealing the Tory jackets and subsequently enriching Blair) and so the uncoordinated left flails about, espousing trendy causes and frittering energy that's actually needed to defend ordinary people's rights at work, maintain public services and prevent the Establishment from taking us back to the 18th Century. So they shoot themselves in the foot. Corbyn does not deserve flippant, smartarsed ridicule, he represents a necessary leftward recalibration of the Labour Party - but he's not a leader and there isn't yet a coherent left vision, so that's a problem.
1
 Dave Garnett 07 Oct 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

> Everyone has a democratic right to vote or not vote. And I am every bit entitled to bitch about the system, because if I feel likeI can't choose a correct party and policies, then it's not a good selection. And I should have a right to tell them all to F*ck off.

I understand your frustration. In an ideal world there would be a candidate and party who reflected exactly your point of view. However, given that this isn't always possible you have to try to vote for the candidate you disapprove of least. If you don't, and the candidate you disapprove of most gets in, not only have you no grounds to complain but you are partly responsible.

I have no idea who I will vote for in the next election. None of the current parties hold very much appeal for various reasons, but vote I will. Maybe I'll vote on a specific issue I feel strongly about. Maybe I'll vote for the candidate I respect most personally. Maybe I'll vote tactically to keep a particular party or candidate out. What won't do is fail to vote and then bitch about how the wrong party won.

 Bootrock 08 Oct 2016
In reply to Dave Garnett:

But it shouldn't be about tactically voting.

And why no differential between a spoiled and a protest ballot?

Ironically you lot on here complain about UKIP but a lot of people voted UKIP on the last elections purely as a protest vote to upset the apple cart. Go figure.

I stand by my convictions, I will not vote, it's my democratic right, and I have every right to bitch about it. I will continue to draw a big phallas on my ballot until I get my protest box.

2
 Pete Pozman 08 Oct 2016
In reply
. I will continue to draw a big phallas on my ballot until I get my protest box.

Do you really do that?
 Bootrock 08 Oct 2016
In reply to Pete Pozman:

Yea? Except in 2 referendums.

 Dave Garnett 08 Oct 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

> I stand by my convictions, I will not vote, it's my democratic right, and I have every right to bitch about it. I will continue to draw a big phallas on my ballot until I get my protest box.

It's very easy to be against everything. What are you for?
1
 Bootrock 08 Oct 2016
In reply to Dave Garnett:


Now that is the question. It depends entirely on the situation, and I could gob off far too much about it all.
 Pete Pozman 08 Oct 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

> Yea? Except in 2 referendums.

Hmm... that's not very nice for the tellers is it Bootrock?
1
 Bootrock 08 Oct 2016
In reply to Pete Pozman:

Meh.

2
 Bimble 08 Oct 2016
In reply to GrahamD:

What wound me up was the pleb involved shrugging his shoulders and saying that as a 'lad from Hull' it's not a big deal, as if punching people is normal behaviour for people like him and therefore those who vote for him, and not thuggish & moronic (like him/those who vote for him)
 Pete Pozman 09 Oct 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

> Meh.

How are you feeling about "alpha male boasting"? This is how Farage describes Trump's admission that, as a "star"he is entitled to grab women by the genitals. Is this the kind of boasting Farage engages in; no doubt he considers himself as alpha. The Americans haven't voted for Trump yet, but we have voted for a man and a mood which is on a par. May appears desperate to please Farage and his ilk
Our country is in disgrace.
1
 Trangia 10 Oct 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

> I will continue to draw a big phallas on my ballot until I get my protest box.

>

In spite of the fact that many of the ballot counters are women? Or had you not considered that they might find your drawing offensive?
4

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...