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Had a brief visit to Rivelin Edge this morning in the delightful sunshine. I've been meaning to do Altar Crack (VS 4c) for ages, it's one of few classic VSs around Sheffield that I haven't done since moving here a couple of years ago. My visiting friend didn't actually have much time so in the end we didn't get down to that end of the crag, and I never tried - but idly reading the logbook comments and elsewhere Altar does seem to have developed quite a reputation! What I did do today was lead Kremlin Krack (HVS 5a) which I was quite pleased with and went rather smoothly - I think my first grit HVS this year; but was left wondering is Altar Crack actually harder?
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In reply to TobyA:
Alter Crack might look like a soft touch at VS 4c but there have been some nasty falls from it, one of which I witnessed.
Alter Crack might look like a soft touch at VS 4c but there have been some nasty falls from it, one of which I witnessed.
In reply to TobyA:
No, well, maybe, Altar Crack, committing layback, Kremlin Krack, bit of a thrutch, a very big cam brings the danger down a lot.
No, well, maybe, Altar Crack, committing layback, Kremlin Krack, bit of a thrutch, a very big cam brings the danger down a lot.
In reply to TobyA:
Altar crack is piss if you climb confidently, but if you jibber at all it can become desperate. It's also quite strenuous to reverse.
If you've climbed Kremlin you'll be fine though
(For a nice confidence booster there's potentially the softest E1 on grit at Rivelin 'better late than never'.
Roof route is also not. To be missed and can go in the hard but safe category
Rivelin is a great crag and really comes into its own in early winter when you want some trad but you need a break from the cold, windy edges of the rest of Easter Grit.
Altar crack is piss if you climb confidently, but if you jibber at all it can become desperate. It's also quite strenuous to reverse.
If you've climbed Kremlin you'll be fine though
(For a nice confidence booster there's potentially the softest E1 on grit at Rivelin 'better late than never'.
Roof route is also not. To be missed and can go in the hard but safe category
Rivelin is a great crag and really comes into its own in early winter when you want some trad but you need a break from the cold, windy edges of the rest of Easter Grit.
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In reply to TobyA:
Some climbers must lack VS strength and panic. It's safe (very safe if you jam up a move to place a high cam, drop back for a rest then go) has good holds and half rests. It's a good bit easier than starred VS brutes like Downes or Beech Layback or Layback Crack.
Some climbers must lack VS strength and panic. It's safe (very safe if you jam up a move to place a high cam, drop back for a rest then go) has good holds and half rests. It's a good bit easier than starred VS brutes like Downes or Beech Layback or Layback Crack.
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In reply to TobyA:
Just for it Toby, as I know how you just love laybacks...
That said, from the pics it seems that you might also be able to get and occasional thin handjam or two in...
Just for it Toby, as I know how you just love laybacks...
That said, from the pics it seems that you might also be able to get and occasional thin handjam or two in...
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In reply to HeMa:
Really nasty fall if you fluff it, good advice from Offwidth.
FFIW, even with my fat fingers and hands, I find it easier to jam than layback.
> Just for it Toby, as I know how you just love laybacks...
> That said, from the pics it seems that you might also be able to get and occasional thin handjam or two in...
Really nasty fall if you fluff it, good advice from Offwidth.
FFIW, even with my fat fingers and hands, I find it easier to jam than layback.
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In reply to TobyA:
Altar Crack is short-lived but pretty pumpy and easy to slip from if you are laybacking. The key is to get a good high cam before you 'go for it'.
Chris
Altar Crack is short-lived but pretty pumpy and easy to slip from if you are laybacking. The key is to get a good high cam before you 'go for it'.
Chris
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In reply to John2:
Seconded Croton Oil back end of the 90s when I last lived in northern England, I remember going to Rivelin on a brutal cold misty day because On Peak Rock has it in the winter warmers chapter - a lot less exposed than many but not actually warm on day like that! Blizzard Ridge in the sun this morning was delightfully warm though.
Seconded Croton Oil back end of the 90s when I last lived in northern England, I remember going to Rivelin on a brutal cold misty day because On Peak Rock has it in the winter warmers chapter - a lot less exposed than many but not actually warm on day like that! Blizzard Ridge in the sun this morning was delightfully warm though.
In reply to TobyA:
I found it harder than a few of the HVS I did in the Peak this year. Croton Oil was far easier.
I found it harder than a few of the HVS I did in the Peak this year. Croton Oil was far easier.
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In reply to Rick Graham:
It looks so protectable in the photos - small cams all the way. Is that not actually the case?
It looks so protectable in the photos - small cams all the way. Is that not actually the case?
In reply to TobyA:
It's whether you stop and place them... once you've started laybacking it's easier just to keep going to the rest!
I found it hard when I did it and wouldn't argue against an upgrade to HVS, and I've certainly done loads of HVS' that are easier! It's pushy for a VS leader and easy to panic and flail when you start to get a bit pumped. Maybe part of my problem was being short - a taller climber can get a cam in much higher at the start, protecting them all the way to the rest - but I couldn't and lacked the experience to go up and place and cam then move back down to rest.
It's whether you stop and place them... once you've started laybacking it's easier just to keep going to the rest!
I found it hard when I did it and wouldn't argue against an upgrade to HVS, and I've certainly done loads of HVS' that are easier! It's pushy for a VS leader and easy to panic and flail when you start to get a bit pumped. Maybe part of my problem was being short - a taller climber can get a cam in much higher at the start, protecting them all the way to the rest - but I couldn't and lacked the experience to go up and place and cam then move back down to rest.
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In reply to TobyA:
I thought it was desperate for the grade, despite being pretty solid on Peak VS at the time. However I'm prepared to concede that laybacking has never been my strength.
I thought it was desperate for the grade, despite being pretty solid on Peak VS at the time. However I'm prepared to concede that laybacking has never been my strength.
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In reply to TobyA:
For someone who likes cracks, it's nothing to be scared of. I did it at a time when I was technically rubbish but quite bold, and just laybacked recklessly up the thing. A better climber can jam and bridge to place gear.
I did eventually do Kremlin Crack (after doing many of the E1s and E2s), and thought it pretty unpleasant. Won't be doing that one again.
I think Alter Crack is a lot more pleasant, but a sandbag for VS, given the difficulty of placing gear for most VS leaders and the whopping great ledge. Nonsuch next door was also an absolute sandbag at HVS, it's really pretty tough but a great route to try if you like safe, technical crack climbing. And the little route to the right is even worse. Welcome to Sandbag Buttress, have fun!
For someone who likes cracks, it's nothing to be scared of. I did it at a time when I was technically rubbish but quite bold, and just laybacked recklessly up the thing. A better climber can jam and bridge to place gear.
I did eventually do Kremlin Crack (after doing many of the E1s and E2s), and thought it pretty unpleasant. Won't be doing that one again.
I think Alter Crack is a lot more pleasant, but a sandbag for VS, given the difficulty of placing gear for most VS leaders and the whopping great ledge. Nonsuch next door was also an absolute sandbag at HVS, it's really pretty tough but a great route to try if you like safe, technical crack climbing. And the little route to the right is even worse. Welcome to Sandbag Buttress, have fun!
Post edited at 19:19
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In reply to TobyA:
Some great advice on here. For what it's worth, I'd echo Chris and get a bomber cam in as high as is practicable. If you feel OK, then go for it confidently and quickly. But if you don't, don't. No harm in backing off. It'll always be there for you.
Might be worth doing some more grit HVSs first, just to be on the safe side and feel more confident.
Grit... the moves are so easy... it's just doing them that's so hard.
But that's what makes it so memorable.
Mick
Some great advice on here. For what it's worth, I'd echo Chris and get a bomber cam in as high as is practicable. If you feel OK, then go for it confidently and quickly. But if you don't, don't. No harm in backing off. It'll always be there for you.
Might be worth doing some more grit HVSs first, just to be on the safe side and feel more confident.
Grit... the moves are so easy... it's just doing them that's so hard.
But that's what makes it so memorable.
Mick
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In reply to TobyA:
My feet popped off moments after placing the cam at the "rest", probably due to inexperience at laybacking and moving hands too far up from my feet. Sobering fall though, had I have faffed prior to placing the cam I would probably have broken a leg. I wouldn't argue at HVS 4c, but then I'm no voice of authority.
My feet popped off moments after placing the cam at the "rest", probably due to inexperience at laybacking and moving hands too far up from my feet. Sobering fall though, had I have faffed prior to placing the cam I would probably have broken a leg. I wouldn't argue at HVS 4c, but then I'm no voice of authority.
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In reply to TobyA:
Hey man.
I lead Altar Crack for the first time earlier this summer and it is pretty pumpy for VS. I also found that if u can jam then jam and bridge to place the gear but then layback once u actually "go for it" to the rest ledge higher up, it worked for me. You're right though it does seem to have developed a bad history surrounding it regarding falls, however I don't know why as it is no more dangerous than any other pumpy VS. The runners I placed were bomber anyway so there should be nothing to worry about. Hope u have fun on it.
J
Hey man.
I lead Altar Crack for the first time earlier this summer and it is pretty pumpy for VS. I also found that if u can jam then jam and bridge to place the gear but then layback once u actually "go for it" to the rest ledge higher up, it worked for me. You're right though it does seem to have developed a bad history surrounding it regarding falls, however I don't know why as it is no more dangerous than any other pumpy VS. The runners I placed were bomber anyway so there should be nothing to worry about. Hope u have fun on it.
J
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In reply to mark hounslea:
One other issue on the route is 'rabbit in headlights' syndrome.... when fear gets people they fail to see things, like the move right to the good half rest... switching from jam to layback to jam also helps....if you keep laybacking all the way really you are creating a harder elimante which would certainly be HVS 4c. Nonsuch next door is a proper sandbag (ie probably E1) as there is no easy way but Altar is just tough for the grade and you need to keep your wits about you. An HVS standard layback like Great North Road is a good bit harder and Right Unconquerable a full grade harder. Rivelin used to be peppered with nasty sandbags but Burb infinity cleared the really bad ones up.
One other issue on the route is 'rabbit in headlights' syndrome.... when fear gets people they fail to see things, like the move right to the good half rest... switching from jam to layback to jam also helps....if you keep laybacking all the way really you are creating a harder elimante which would certainly be HVS 4c. Nonsuch next door is a proper sandbag (ie probably E1) as there is no easy way but Altar is just tough for the grade and you need to keep your wits about you. An HVS standard layback like Great North Road is a good bit harder and Right Unconquerable a full grade harder. Rivelin used to be peppered with nasty sandbags but Burb infinity cleared the really bad ones up.
Post edited at 06:13
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In reply to Offwidth:
Well that tells me, as I thought Nonsuch was a hard E1. Hopefully this is my memory going rather than me having genuinely thought it was 2 grades out at the time...
Easy Pickings is a good one for those feeling ambitious.
Well that tells me, as I thought Nonsuch was a hard E1. Hopefully this is my memory going rather than me having genuinely thought it was 2 grades out at the time...
Easy Pickings is a good one for those feeling ambitious.
Post edited at 06:15
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In reply to Si dH:
Easy Pickings is ridiculously hard but I defo reckon it should keep its grade as if it goes wrong you'll only be five foot off the floor.
Also if it was E4 6b the name wouldn't be half as funny
Easy Pickings is ridiculously hard but I defo reckon it should keep its grade as if it goes wrong you'll only be five foot off the floor.
Also if it was E4 6b the name wouldn't be half as funny
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In reply to deacondeacon:
I tried it a few years ago and got nowhere. One day I must go back with a pad and make it feel easy (maybe!)
I tried it a few years ago and got nowhere. One day I must go back with a pad and make it feel easy (maybe!)
In reply to Offwidth:
You're right about that rabbit headlights syndrome, I see that happen to people all the time. It's weird too how different people find different things harder than others. I found Altar Crack more than twice as pumpy as Right Unconquerable, where I just seemed to find better rests and bigger holds. However I can imagine there would be plenty of people who would find it the other way around. I guess it all boils down to climbing style and having different strengths/weaknesses doesn't it.
You're right about that rabbit headlights syndrome, I see that happen to people all the time. It's weird too how different people find different things harder than others. I found Altar Crack more than twice as pumpy as Right Unconquerable, where I just seemed to find better rests and bigger holds. However I can imagine there would be plenty of people who would find it the other way around. I guess it all boils down to climbing style and having different strengths/weaknesses doesn't it.
Post edited at 08:00
In reply to althesin:
Layback??? Wash your mouth out.
> No, well, maybe, Altar Crack, committing layback...
Layback??? Wash your mouth out.
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In reply to TobyA:
Good advice above; short, v.pumpy layback to a good enough rest at the break. Falling from trying to stand up at the break could be very nasty if the last gear is from as high as you can get before committing.
However, MASSIVE BETA SPOILER:
The break that makes the rest after the layback takes a cam that's much easier to place than trying to get one in the crack.
VS/HVS??? Depends on how you find the style, does it matter?
Good advice above; short, v.pumpy layback to a good enough rest at the break. Falling from trying to stand up at the break could be very nasty if the last gear is from as high as you can get before committing.
However, MASSIVE BETA SPOILER:
The break that makes the rest after the layback takes a cam that's much easier to place than trying to get one in the crack.
VS/HVS??? Depends on how you find the style, does it matter?
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In reply to Oliver Houston:
Does anyone not just place a runner or two whilst going up the crack? Is it really that impossible?
> Falling from trying to stand up at the break could be very nasty if the last gear is from as high as you can get before committing.
Does anyone not just place a runner or two whilst going up the crack? Is it really that impossible?
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In reply to TobyA:
My mate farted his way up it once, I was pissing myself laughing, every move a new fart, hilarious.
It looked quite strenuous, the climbing not the farting, and he climbed it in one no protection after setting off. I'd imagine, like most lay-backs, getting gear in would be very difficult.
My mate farted his way up it once, I was pissing myself laughing, every move a new fart, hilarious.
It looked quite strenuous, the climbing not the farting, and he climbed it in one no protection after setting off. I'd imagine, like most lay-backs, getting gear in would be very difficult.
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In reply to TobyA:
I've only seconded alter crack but I thought it was way too pumpy for VS and at the time I was leading VS/HVS frequently.
Croton Oil is superb with bombproof runners spaced as you would bolt a climb (so slightly committing but safe). Certainly easier although more technical than alter crack I would say.
I've only seconded alter crack but I thought it was way too pumpy for VS and at the time I was leading VS/HVS frequently.
Croton Oil is superb with bombproof runners spaced as you would bolt a climb (so slightly committing but safe). Certainly easier although more technical than alter crack I would say.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I don't remember Croton Oil being particularly technical. Found it a less daunting undertaking than Altar Crack - which I thought was HVS 5a.
I don't remember Croton Oil being particularly technical. Found it a less daunting undertaking than Altar Crack - which I thought was HVS 5a.
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I thought alter crack was HVS 4c, no 5a moves just lots of pump with no real rests, even the half way point isn't really a rest after the pump you've already undergone.
Croton Oil has a distinct 5a sequence around the nose IMO.
I thought alter crack was HVS 4c, no 5a moves just lots of pump with no real rests, even the half way point isn't really a rest after the pump you've already undergone.
Croton Oil has a distinct 5a sequence around the nose IMO.
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In reply to TobyA:
Its not impossible to place a perfect high runner with weight on feet before having to commit to moving to the break. There are plenty of reasons you might struggle on it but no excuses for doing a desmond off it !
> Does anyone not just place a runner or two whilst going up the crack? Is it really that impossible?
Its not impossible to place a perfect high runner with weight on feet before having to commit to moving to the break. There are plenty of reasons you might struggle on it but no excuses for doing a desmond off it !
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In reply to GrahamD:
do you think it would be possible to hit the altar on rope stretch if you fluffed going for the break?
do you think it would be possible to hit the altar on rope stretch if you fluffed going for the break?
In reply to CurlyStevo:
And it sounds like no one jams it, every one laybacks... I hate laybacking.
I do remember on Vestpillaren leading one pitch which got called the layback and my (way more accomplished) partner saying after seconding, "you got a lot of runners in there for a layback!" to which I had to reply I had just jammed up it so I could put lots of gear in so I didn't get scared! But sounds like Altar is a different kettle of fish...
And it sounds like no one jams it, every one laybacks... I hate laybacking.
I do remember on Vestpillaren leading one pitch which got called the layback and my (way more accomplished) partner saying after seconding, "you got a lot of runners in there for a layback!" to which I had to reply I had just jammed up it so I could put lots of gear in so I didn't get scared! But sounds like Altar is a different kettle of fish...
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I thought so, I placed a cam from the layback.
> do you think it would be possible to hit the altar on rope stretch if you fluffed going for the break?
I thought so, I placed a cam from the layback.
In reply to TobyA:
I think the gear is ok you can get enough in before going for it to the good holds and more gear, that altar / spire is a bit close for comfort though.
When my friend did it there was a stuck cam just where you wanted it, which was lucky as he fell off on to it!
Croton Oil and Spiral Route and more enjoyable climbing IMO.
I think the gear is ok you can get enough in before going for it to the good holds and more gear, that altar / spire is a bit close for comfort though.
When my friend did it there was a stuck cam just where you wanted it, which was lucky as he fell off on to it!
Croton Oil and Spiral Route and more enjoyable climbing IMO.
Post edited at 17:41
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I seconded Croton back in the 90s and thought I had led Spiral Route the same day but I was looking in my ancient On Peak Rock the other night and I have no note in there although it did tell me which other routes I did so I guess I haven't done Spiral. We did Blizzard Ridge yesterday, I thought technically it wasn't too hard and Dave got loads of runners in - although I suspect I would have felt a bit nervous above some of the OK but not brilliant bits of kit.
I seconded Croton back in the 90s and thought I had led Spiral Route the same day but I was looking in my ancient On Peak Rock the other night and I have no note in there although it did tell me which other routes I did so I guess I haven't done Spiral. We did Blizzard Ridge yesterday, I thought technically it wasn't too hard and Dave got loads of runners in - although I suspect I would have felt a bit nervous above some of the OK but not brilliant bits of kit.
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
There was an injury earlier in the year when the climber, who I will not identify, hit the deck whilst going for the break. It's possible to stuff a high cam in the crack before you fully commit to the strenuous sequence. Enjoy.........Jeff
There was an injury earlier in the year when the climber, who I will not identify, hit the deck whilst going for the break. It's possible to stuff a high cam in the crack before you fully commit to the strenuous sequence. Enjoy.........Jeff
In reply to TobyA:
Blizzard Ridge is quite well know for being a bit bold, I heard the climbing is good though.
Blizzard Ridge is quite well know for being a bit bold, I heard the climbing is good though.
In reply to TobyA:
(beta spolier) I both jammed to place the high runner (move down, rest, then layback) and where the laybacks eases a few metres up, where you can rock right to a proper half rest. On the layback section there are some foot placements (including an intermediate blind break?) that cuts the level of high feet requirements. I also kept my feet more right than the climbers in the logbook photos and gained from friction of the left of my body.
In contrast to 5.7 laybacks in Yosemite and Tahquiz although much steeper it ain't 30m of pump inducing work where you need to ration gear and sometimes place from the layback moves. It is noticeably easier than the other 3 grit laybacks I named (I fell off Layback Crack at Gardoms first time... very strenuous and care required on slippy foot positions)
(beta spolier) I both jammed to place the high runner (move down, rest, then layback) and where the laybacks eases a few metres up, where you can rock right to a proper half rest. On the layback section there are some foot placements (including an intermediate blind break?) that cuts the level of high feet requirements. I also kept my feet more right than the climbers in the logbook photos and gained from friction of the left of my body.
In contrast to 5.7 laybacks in Yosemite and Tahquiz although much steeper it ain't 30m of pump inducing work where you need to ration gear and sometimes place from the layback moves. It is noticeably easier than the other 3 grit laybacks I named (I fell off Layback Crack at Gardoms first time... very strenuous and care required on slippy foot positions)
Post edited at 18:41
In reply to Offwidth:
Interesting, just checked I onsighted that one and don't remember much about it which normally means it went pretty smoothly. Hopefully, that means I might be OK on Altar - I'm really going to have to put some effort into going back up there soon and giving it a go! At Gardoms I found Gardoms Unconquerable the butch one, although it was a bit grubby when I did it.
I haven't done those other two you suggested, and I've been running short of obvious, starred VSs to do around here, so thanks - they are on the list; actually there are few more to tick at Froggatt and I haven't tried Valkyrie since failing on it in I guess 2000 - so should try that again.
> I fell off Layback Crack at Gardoms first time... very strenuous and care required on slippy foot positions
Interesting, just checked I onsighted that one and don't remember much about it which normally means it went pretty smoothly. Hopefully, that means I might be OK on Altar - I'm really going to have to put some effort into going back up there soon and giving it a go! At Gardoms I found Gardoms Unconquerable the butch one, although it was a bit grubby when I did it.
I haven't done those other two you suggested, and I've been running short of obvious, starred VSs to do around here, so thanks - they are on the list; actually there are few more to tick at Froggatt and I haven't tried Valkyrie since failing on it in I guess 2000 - so should try that again.
Post edited at 19:55
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Perhaps only bold compared to a crack where you can chuck gear in wherever you want it. Dave got lots of runners in.
> Blizzard Ridge is quite well know for being a bit bold,
Perhaps only bold compared to a crack where you can chuck gear in wherever you want it. Dave got lots of runners in.
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In reply to Offwidth:
Re: sandbags. How about Left Edge (VS 4c)?
Once saw a kid try to solo it and he backed off onto the adjacent E1 as it was less scary. Haha. Think I may have led the E1 first myself before I plucked up the balls for this VS!
Re: sandbags. How about Left Edge (VS 4c)?
Once saw a kid try to solo it and he backed off onto the adjacent E1 as it was less scary. Haha. Think I may have led the E1 first myself before I plucked up the balls for this VS!
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In reply to dr_botnik:
I sandbagged myself on that one! Looked over from another route and someone was near the top, it looked like a straight line with gear all the way up. Nice easy VS, I'll give that a go. What I'd missed was the detour onto the flange...
I sandbagged myself on that one! Looked over from another route and someone was near the top, it looked like a straight line with gear all the way up. Nice easy VS, I'll give that a go. What I'd missed was the detour onto the flange...
Post edited at 20:48
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In reply to dr_botnik:
From the photos that looks like its the slab right next to the scramble down? Photos make it look good.
I looked at Red Slab Variations yesterday, my mate had had to run back to the car having left his harness there, and I was wondering about trying to solo it while waiting, but although it didn't look much better to lead, I decided it wasn't positive enough for me to try soloing. Have you done that one? If so, is it as bold as it looks?
From the photos that looks like its the slab right next to the scramble down? Photos make it look good.
I looked at Red Slab Variations yesterday, my mate had had to run back to the car having left his harness there, and I was wondering about trying to solo it while waiting, but although it didn't look much better to lead, I decided it wasn't positive enough for me to try soloing. Have you done that one? If so, is it as bold as it looks?
In reply to TobyA:
No I haven't! Considered soloing it but it's on the scrittly unclimbed bit... Probably not climbed regularly for a reason... The face climbs behind the needle are solo's. Remember doing one but haven't logged it, but it stuck in my mind for sure, good climb.
No I haven't! Considered soloing it but it's on the scrittly unclimbed bit... Probably not climbed regularly for a reason... The face climbs behind the needle are solo's. Remember doing one but haven't logged it, but it stuck in my mind for sure, good climb.
In reply to dr_botnik:
HVS 5a; HVS 4c or E1 5a if you dont trust RPs..... too much detail to copy across so check out our views here:
offwidth.uptosummit.com/rivelin.html
We have changed our mind on Nonsuch after feedback and reclimbing more recently.. solid E1.
HVS 5a; HVS 4c or E1 5a if you dont trust RPs..... too much detail to copy across so check out our views here:
offwidth.uptosummit.com/rivelin.html
We have changed our mind on Nonsuch after feedback and reclimbing more recently.. solid E1.
In reply to TobyA:
Red Slab is a bit dirty, a lot more scary than it looks and the finish takes a line away from full commitment.... precarious 3c or 4a solo if perfectly clean the Rockfax finish is artificial and proper sandbag terrain (solid HVS).
Red Slab is a bit dirty, a lot more scary than it looks and the finish takes a line away from full commitment.... precarious 3c or 4a solo if perfectly clean the Rockfax finish is artificial and proper sandbag terrain (solid HVS).
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In reply to TobyA:
Yes, I did. Both times I've done it (see spoiler).
If you're stable, then it would be possible, but pumpy to place more. I think jamming it would be awkward, the corner would be a bit of a squeeze, but it might work.
Sorry if repeat mention, but Brooks' Layback (HS 4b) is a similar shape but easier proposition.
For me I reckon Altar crack generated a similar pump to right unconquerable, but over a shorter distance and felt less reversible.
Top outs easier though.
> Does anyone not just place a runner or two whilst going up the crack? Is it really that impossible?
Yes, I did. Both times I've done it (see spoiler).
If you're stable, then it would be possible, but pumpy to place more. I think jamming it would be awkward, the corner would be a bit of a squeeze, but it might work.
Sorry if repeat mention, but Brooks' Layback (HS 4b) is a similar shape but easier proposition.
For me I reckon Altar crack generated a similar pump to right unconquerable, but over a shorter distance and felt less reversible.
Top outs easier though.
In reply to Oliver Houston:
Brook's Layback is way easier and correctly graded.
> Sorry if repeat mention, but Brooks' Layback (HS 4b) is a similar shape but easier proposition.
> For me I reckon Altar crack generated a similar pump to right unconquerable, but over a shorter distance and felt less reversible.
Brook's Layback is way easier and correctly graded.
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In reply to TobyA:
I've only seconded it (my partner fell on it, pushing her grade, but did top out). Whilst it was strenuous I think the moves are simple enough and the protection good enough to warrant a high VS. I got on David at Burbage a few days back and that felt more like what I'd expect from a HVS, and then compare that to Goliath's groove also at HVS.
I've only seconded it (my partner fell on it, pushing her grade, but did top out). Whilst it was strenuous I think the moves are simple enough and the protection good enough to warrant a high VS. I got on David at Burbage a few days back and that felt more like what I'd expect from a HVS, and then compare that to Goliath's groove also at HVS.
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In reply to Oliver Houston:
I went to just below the top of Brook's solo on my first go, didn't like the top out so down climbed the crack which was pretty straightforward. Went back subsequently and led it, but I think that's a rather easy route for it's grade. Done harder severes I'm sure. Corners are cosy!
I went to just below the top of Brook's solo on my first go, didn't like the top out so down climbed the crack which was pretty straightforward. Went back subsequently and led it, but I think that's a rather easy route for it's grade. Done harder severes I'm sure. Corners are cosy!
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In reply to CurlyStevo:
I know what you mean but not in mine (Agony is steep and a bit blind so goes well with confidence: bottom end HVS standard... just a bit easier than the mislabelled VS Thrombosis next door). Did you rock right at the break as a matter of interest?
I know what you mean but not in mine (Agony is steep and a bit blind so goes well with confidence: bottom end HVS standard... just a bit easier than the mislabelled VS Thrombosis next door). Did you rock right at the break as a matter of interest?
In reply to TobyA:
Oh it's simple enough and in many was less strenuous than altar crack but ground fall is surely more likely if you fall giving at a more serious feel.
Oh it's simple enough and in many was less strenuous than altar crack but ground fall is surely more likely if you fall giving at a more serious feel.
In reply to Offwidth:
Don't think so, remember being cramped sorting gear out left and under the overhang.
I can think of many easier HVS climbs I've done but not so many that are a crux layback if you know what I mean.
I admit I'm not so great at laybacks without jams and no really useful foot holds anyways so it could be that I guess.
Great North Road I bridged up on small smears.
I think the crux layback on this http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=14758 is easier than altar crack and to be honest I'd find the pitch 1 of this easier too http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=14748 (solid HVS 5a maybe E1).
Don't think so, remember being cramped sorting gear out left and under the overhang.
I can think of many easier HVS climbs I've done but not so many that are a crux layback if you know what I mean.
I admit I'm not so great at laybacks without jams and no really useful foot holds anyways so it could be that I guess.
Great North Road I bridged up on small smears.
I think the crux layback on this http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=14758 is easier than altar crack and to be honest I'd find the pitch 1 of this easier too http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=14748 (solid HVS 5a maybe E1).
Post edited at 17:43
In reply to CurlyStevo:
If you layback up all the way it is HVS in its effective difficulty. You are just missing the easiest way of climbing the route (with the good half rest and a much easier finish staying right of the crack but using the crack). Routes are graded for the easiest way not with strict rules (like layback all the way)... it's easy to miss this step right as I've watched many do so. This factor pushes the route up the adjectival grade a bit than if the 'beta' was more obvious to the onsight climber. I think the two differing ways it is done also explains the wildly differing views.
If you layback up all the way it is HVS in its effective difficulty. You are just missing the easiest way of climbing the route (with the good half rest and a much easier finish staying right of the crack but using the crack). Routes are graded for the easiest way not with strict rules (like layback all the way)... it's easy to miss this step right as I've watched many do so. This factor pushes the route up the adjectival grade a bit than if the 'beta' was more obvious to the onsight climber. I think the two differing ways it is done also explains the wildly differing views.
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In reply to Offwidth:
I did utilise the half way rest and only started lay backing when I had to. Problem was I was so pumped by the 'rest' that I didn't find it very restful! Probably took the easiest line going right after that also.
I think the climbing in isolation (on second / tr) is F5+ which to my mind is HVS especially considering the Altar and how hard it is to get any gear in until the 'rest' (although the high piece placed before committing to the layback may or may not save your from hitting the Altar).
I did utilise the half way rest and only started lay backing when I had to. Problem was I was so pumped by the 'rest' that I didn't find it very restful! Probably took the easiest line going right after that also.
I think the climbing in isolation (on second / tr) is F5+ which to my mind is HVS especially considering the Altar and how hard it is to get any gear in until the 'rest' (although the high piece placed before committing to the layback may or may not save your from hitting the Altar).
Post edited at 18:25
In reply to Offwidth:
fair enough.
If that pitch was say the first pitch of something at Swanage I think it would be solid HVS. Done E1's (with gear) where all the pitches were easier. Swanage is well known for pumpy at the HVS grade.
fair enough.
If that pitch was say the first pitch of something at Swanage I think it would be solid HVS. Done E1's (with gear) where all the pitches were easier. Swanage is well known for pumpy at the HVS grade.
Post edited at 18:38
In reply to TobyA:
To answer your question yes you can place further cams in the layback before getting to the rest; that's what I did anyway. I much prefer jamming to laybacking but I couldn't get my hands to jam - it would be very thin hands or ringlocks for most normal had sized people and laybacking is a lot easier. Altar Crack is a fair bit less pumpy than right Unconquerable but is still top end VS in my view.
To answer your question yes you can place further cams in the layback before getting to the rest; that's what I did anyway. I much prefer jamming to laybacking but I couldn't get my hands to jam - it would be very thin hands or ringlocks for most normal had sized people and laybacking is a lot easier. Altar Crack is a fair bit less pumpy than right Unconquerable but is still top end VS in my view.
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