/ Moving-to/retiring-in Europe after Brexit?

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BruceM - on 11 Oct 2016
Hi

Prior to June I'm sure many people were planning on soon retiring/moving-to/working/buying-a-business somewhere in Europe. I certainly had that in the sometime-near-future plans.

But what are all those same people thinking now?

Is the best option to go NOW fast-as and hope you have lived somewhere 5 years and can get french/spanish/italian.. citizenship before any post-Brexit restrictions come in?

Or is that potential investment suicide?

Alternatively, do you wait and hope something sensible is eventually arranged? And if it's not...

All the current rules and regs about doing such a move will no-longer apply once we are no longer EU. So it already seems too late. Is it? Or is there a good plan hiding somewhere.

Thanks for any opinions/thoughts.

Bruce
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ian caton on 11 Oct 2016
In reply to BruceM:

If there is a good plan, let me know.

I think health care costs are the big problem.

Unfortunately I don't think stability in the EU is a given so it seems to me a base here needs to be maintained, or at least plan B.

I would have thought if you have a big fat pension that the world is your oyster, but otherwise it will be tricky to get employment at an advanced age. Hence buy a business or work remotely in UK from EU seem best options.
Indy - on 11 Oct 2016
In reply to BruceM:

We will and still plan to but I got a French passport last week so doesn't affect me.
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crisp - on 11 Oct 2016
In reply to BruceM:

Have you looked up the procedure for getting an Italian passport/citizenship? We live in Italy and it is much easier to get a Irish passport/citizenship.
Paul Atkinson - on 11 Oct 2016
In reply to BruceM:

will be watching the answers with interest

it strikes me that a nifty move to Scotland might end up being all that's required to get the EU passport and all important health card
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Trangia - on 11 Oct 2016
In reply to BruceM:

I have several friends living in Spain who retired there as ex pats. They are dead worried. The values of their properties have crashed and there is a glut of property on the market with few buyers other than a substantially knock down prices.

If anyone has really set their heart on it I would advise retaining a property in the UK and rent on the Continent so that it's easy to return if things don't work out.

As has been said health cover is a major consideration bearing in mind that premiums will go up substantially as you age.
Timmd on 11 Oct 2016
In reply to BruceM:
> Is the best option to go NOW fast-as and hope you have lived somewhere 5 years and can get french/spanish/italian.. citizenship before any post-Brexit restrictions come in?

> Or is that potential investment suicide?

I think f people knew what the future held investments wouldn't be risky and they'd be profitable always. I deferred to my Dad's strong opinion against buying a lot of dollars when it was nearly 2 dollars to the pound several years ago, and then grumbled at him for the next few months every so often after it turned out he was wrong - which he took in good spirit to his credit.

> Alternatively, do you wait and hope something sensible is eventually arranged? And if it's not...

> All the current rules and regs about doing such a move will no-longer apply once we are no longer EU. So it already seems too late. Is it? Or is there a good plan hiding somewhere.

> Thanks for any opinions/thoughts.

> Bruce

I think nobody really knows what's going to happen. I guess one might think about buying 'now' and hope for some goodness of spirit from the people in France etc regarding the status of English expats, but it seems quite a leap into the unknown. There's no precedent for current times on which to base an educated guess.
Post edited at 19:48
RomTheBear on 11 Oct 2016
In reply to BruceM:
Well it looks likely that freedom of movement will end so there are zero guarantees that you'd be able to stay wherever you go, especially if you are retiring you can forget about work visas.

If you have 2 millions euros lying around you can invest in Cyprus and they'll give you citizenship.
Post edited at 20:40
ian caton on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to BruceM:

There is a small part of me that sees a slight parallel with the election of the National Socialist party in Germany in the 30's. The sensible fled, took with them what they could and started again.,
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Bingers - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to BruceM:

You could just reconsider and stay in Blighty. Apparently Eastbourne has a "thriving" retired community. I'm told it has more tartan blanket shops per head of population than Glasgow.
2
Big Ger - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to BruceM:

Keeping a base in the UK is a very wise idea, we kept our cottage in Cornwall on when I emigrated.

A great deal will depend on what you have to offer the country of residence, I was lucky that my profession and qualifications were rated as desirable, which eased my transition.

Are you prepared to commit to citizenship/dual citizenship? We have seen complaints here that people who have been resident in, and enjoyed the UK are now feeling unsure of their security of residence as they haven't taken out citizenship.

How much are you prepared to risk on currency fluctuations? I've seen the Au swing between 32 p and 68 p. It's great when it goes for you, can be he'll when it's against. The last time I came home, which was only Nov 2016, $1000 was worth 470 quid, this time that same grand is buying me 620 quid.

If you're talking about an annual income/ spend that differential is enormously affective.
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biped - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Bingers:

> Apparently Eastbourne has a "thriving" retired community. I'm told it has more tartan blanket shops per head of population than Glasgow.

But not Pitlochry I'll wager.

OP: no advice other than Brexit has put my plans in a tailspin. I've spent a lot less time looking at Pyrenean property websites of late as I can't take the despair.
KevinD - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Paul Atkinson:

> it strikes me that a nifty move to Scotland might end up being all that's required to get the EU passport and all important health card

Double check ancestry for any Irish connections. They allow back to grandparents and, according to More or Less, there are a shit load who will qualify (thanks to an Irish parent I will probably be ordering one at some point).
1
subtle on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to biped:

> OP: no advice other than Brexit has put my plans in a tailspin. I've spent a lot less time looking at Pyrenean property websites of late as I can't take the despair.

Morocco still looks like a good option for me - brexitschmexit
Big Ger - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to subtle:

You raise a good point, there's more to the world than just Europe.
1
summo on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to BruceM:
> But what are all those same people thinking now?

there is no reason that if you have employment in Europe in the future offered to you that you won't be able to take it. After brexit there might be more paperwork, but it's still possible.

> Is the best option to go NOW fast-as and hope you have lived somewhere 5 years and can get french/spanish/italian.. citizenship before any post-Brexit restrictions come in?

If you have less than 5 years required for citizenship, a job, pay tax, no criminal record etc.. I don't think any country has suggested expelling UK workers.

> Or is that potential investment suicide?

I wouldn't move as investment, I would if it is something you want to do, a lifestyle choice. Chase happiness, not wealth. However, I don't think it will ever become like SA where you can't take your money out of the EU. Plenty lost out in Spain over the past decade when the Euro was so weak, when they sold their holiday or retirement home there, obviously now the opposite applies.

> Alternatively, do you wait and hope something sensible is eventually arranged? And if it's not...

I would keep looking, the more cautious people who stop looking, might increase your chance of finding a job or property you want, as the competition is reduced. At least you'll know the market as things develop and will feel safe jumping in at a later date. The more cautious market might even reduce demand enough to offset the pound, but that's the eternal optimist in me.

> All the current rules and regs about doing such a move will no-longer apply once we are no longer EU. So it already seems too late. Is it? Or is there a good plan hiding somewhere.

If you move and obtain residency, can support yourself ie. you are putting money into that country's economy, I can't see any nation booting you out. But, you have to be prepared to take citizenship there, which might become a future clause for anyone wishing to remain beyond 5 years (or whatever time that nation has for applying for citizenship).

Don't move all cash or assets over. You might be at risk of extra taxation depending how the dust settles, but you'll eliminate risk by keeping stuff in two countries. Don't have pensions, property rent etc.. paid over to an overseas bank monthly. Do it in lump sums, you'll get better rates, less fees and can pick the time to move it to avoid blips. The down side is extra accounting work for yourself, dealing with HMRC and an overseas tax authority, but most nation print tax rules in many languages, only their physical return has to be in host nations tongue. Keeping money in both countries also means when you visit the UK / elsewhere, you spend the money at the time that offers the best value in terms of exchanges rate, bank fees etc...

people talk about insurance cards, but the E111(or whatever it's called now) isn't valid long term in any country, it's for holidays, temporary contracts. For full health cover in the Nordics you need to be a resident of some type, ie living off savings, or working. The Med. nations may differ. If you don't have the means to support here (Sweden), then you'll be expect to have full medical insurance cover, which isn't so easy for some people to obtain, which is their subtle way of saying you're not really welcome if you can't support yourself.
Post edited at 10:35
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stevieb - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Trangia:

Your friends in Spain will also have seen any UK based income reduced by around 20% recently.
Long term there is also a risk that their state pension will not increase in line with UK residents. The index linking currently only applies to the EEA and a handful of other countries.
Jim C - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Paul Atkinson:

> it strikes me that a nifty move to Scotland might end up being all that's required to get the EU passport and all important health card

That will be no problem for Sturgon , she has similar open door views as her friend Mrs Merkel. (I don't think they even bother if you have a criminal record )

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biped - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to summo:
Good post, but...

> If you move and obtain residency, can support yourself ie. you are putting money into that country's economy, I can't see any nation booting you out.

Except this one ;o)
Post edited at 12:35
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BruceM - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to BruceM:
Thanks for all the input everybody.

Yes, healthcare has always been a problem. Now we just have a few other potential issues as well.

Unfortunately I'm not rich...I just have nothing to lose either

But while I suppose there is no real solution yet, the UK gov's position on what it will actually end up pushing-for swings wildly day by day. Perhaps there is hope in all the madness.

In any case, it doesn't sound like the "run out there now and hope you beat the changes option" is very popular.

Of course, this is all taking a selfish view of how it might affect people like me personally. I appreciate there are many other arguments about almost everything tied up in all this. You just don't see too many people running around cheering.

wercat on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to summo:
Do you know, I don't think you are old enough to understand the effect on people less well off who can't just up sticks or re-skill and look for all the golden eggs that the Brexit geese are going to lay for us.

Which country wants over 60s?


You just keep shouting how happy and glass half full we should be about a forced vote by some idiots who want to bugger us all up. But you aren't in the half of life that means that the problems will still be around when we are past working age and unable to benefit
Post edited at 15:36
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Rob Parsons on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Trangia:

> I have several friends living in Spain who retired there as ex pats. They are dead worried. The values of their properties have crashed and there is a glut of property on the market with few buyers other than a substantially knock down prices.

Assuming they bought their properties to live in as a permanent concern, why does any of that matter, and why are they 'dead worried' about it?

I am always puzzled by the self-description 'ex-pat.' If you go somewhere to live, then live there; why 'identify' explicitly with somewhere else?



Cú Chullain - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to crisp:

> Have you looked up the procedure for getting an Italian passport/citizenship? We live in Italy and it is much easier to get a Irish passport/citizenship.

F*ck off, we're full


;-P
Big Ger - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to wercat:

I think you've missed the point of the discussion.
summo on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to wercat:
Pick your teddies up.

Many countries would happily take a retiree with income from another country, it is pretty much win win, there is the negative point of potential healthcare in old age, but a retiree isn't 'likely' to start having kids, that cost a health service, education and benefits.

So which country wants a 60year old, probably quite a lot.

I'm only 45 with no intention of pegging it in the near future, so given averages I expect to see what shape the eu and UK is in after 30years. And, my kids who are in single figures I expect see at least double that. I voted out for reasons other than migration, if I disliked migration I clearly chose the worst country in the world to move to. I will make the presumption you are adult and can act as such, you can debate without name calling etc.. lots of people voted out for lots of different reasons.

My glass is half full, always will be. I had a spectacularly average, probably less than average comp education thanks to TBs constituency and have had no funding from parents, trust funds, inheritance etc.. I have grafted with multiple jobs since 12 , saved money and invested. I take opportunities that arise, rather than dismiss them and it has served me well in the long run, which is how I view brexit, it is a long run benefit.

Yes brexit will hurt in little in the early days, but I think in time will realigned some national and eu priorities to the benefit of all in the longer term. I am as entitled to my opinion as you are, but i won't be continuing the debate with yourself as I can't abide people who throw insults at people simply because their views differ.
Post edited at 16:32
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abseil on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> Assuming they bought their properties to live in as a permanent concern, why does any of that matter, and why are they 'dead worried' about it?

> I am always puzzled by the self-description 'ex-pat.' If you go somewhere to live, then live there; why 'identify' explicitly with somewhere else?

Maybe the folks in Spain are worried because their property in Spain is now worth a lot less than it was, and if they sell and move back to the UK [as lots do, from Spain] they'll have many fewer pounds than they originally had?

Doesn't 'ex-pat' just mean you've left your country of origin - not that you identify with it?

No argument here, Rob, I'm just wondering/ thinking out loud!
r0x0r.wolfo - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Timmd:

> I think f people knew what the future held investments wouldn't be risky and they'd be profitable always. I deferred to my Dad's strong opinion against buying a lot of dollars when it was nearly 2 dollars to the pound several years ago, and then grumbled at him for the next few months every so often after it turned out he was wrong - which he took in good spirit to his credit.

To be fair you have been able to make money by buying dollars ever since then, nothings stopped you.

wbo - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to abseil:
No, I think ex-pat applies to people who've left a country, but only temporarily. I am not a ex-pat - I am an immigrant, I live in Norway, I expect to die here. Ex pats typically come here for a few years, may buy property, date other expats, convert everything to pounds and get uk television. There is a mental difference, a lack of commitment .

Yes, Pensioners in Spain should be worried as all the agreements that handle their residence, taxes and especially healthcare unravel.
skog on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Big Ger:
> Are you prepared to commit to citizenship/dual citizenship? We have seen complaints here that people who have been resident in, and enjoyed the UK are now feeling unsure of their security of residence as they haven't taken out citizenship.

This is one of the most unpleasant things I've seen you post, with its implication (probably deliberate, but I'll take your word for it if you say otherwise) that it was remiss of them not to take UK citizenship, and your use of the word 'complaints' when 'fears' is far more accurate.

There was simply no need to take citizenship when enjoying EU freedoms - we had an agreement we could all live and work in each others' countries, enjoy almost the same rights as full citizens, yet retain our own identities and citizenships.

This wonderful freedom is now being taken away from us, and there is now a flurry of citizenship applications (stressful, expensive, time-consuming, and degrading, as you probably know well), and of people returning to where they are welcome, or simply not going elsewhere. You can paint it how you want, and are quite free to consider it a necessary evil on the way to whatever end you're imagining, but it really is very unpleasant for those involved.
Post edited at 18:50
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jimtitt - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to summo:

>
> Many countries would happily take a retiree with income from another country, it is pretty much win win, there is the negative point of potential healthcare in old age, but a retiree isn't 'likely' to start having kids, that cost a health service, education and benefits.

> So which country wants a 60year old, probably quite a lot.

Hmm, most countries look upon having childeren as a long term investment to future prosperity and "old" people as a potential drain on society with no defined end date and no prospects of ever contributing to the economy.
You are clearly too young to remember when taking your UK pension money to another country was not an option, nor was taking your hard earned savings or even your holiday money.

RomTheBear on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to summo:

> So which country wants a 60year old, probably quite a lot.

facepalm
1
Big Ger - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to skog:
Sound advice I would have thought, a lesson to be learned from recent changes.

Are you telling us that people were NOT complaining that their rights of residence may be affected?

Why is applying for citizenship of a country you wish to retire to "unpleasant"?

We are in the process of getting NZ citizenship, on top of our British and Australian residency rights.

Apart from not liking my politics, what on earth is unpleasant about ensuring your right to remain in a country has legal weight behind it?
Post edited at 07:26
summo on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to jimtitt:
> "old" people as a potential drain on society with no defined end date and no prospects of ever contributing to the economy.

I would agree, but their pension is being paid by another country. So it isn't quite the same thing as the UK government paying your pension whilst you see out your days in Eastbourne and having pick up your NHS bill at the same.

> You are clearly too young to remember when taking your UK pension money to another country was not an option, nor was taking your hard earned savings or even your holiday money.

Yes, and as the world isn't like that now, it's not really that relevant. You can leave your money in a UK bank and transfer it using brokers every few months, getting a better rate, less fees. Times change.
Post edited at 07:31
jimtitt - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to summo:

> I would agree, but their pension is being paid by another country. So it isn't quite the same thing as the UK government paying your pension whilst you see out your days in Eastbourne and having pick up your NHS bill at the same.

> Yes, and as the world isn't like that now, it's not really that relevant. You can leave your money in a UK bank and transfer it using brokers every few months, getting a better rate, less fees. Times change.

Not if the government decides otherwise, freedom to move capital is a right you enjoy under the EU. Previously British governments have had no qualms about restricting the amounts UK citizens take out of the country, most recently Harold Wilsons 1966 limit of 50 pounds, I´ ve still a passport with the stamp in it. Cilla Black reputedly smuggled money out in a hollow loaf of bread to pay for her Spanish villa.
Times certainly change and foreign exchange controls come and go and come again at the whim of politicians and in recent times they have existed in various forms in the UK from 1939 to joining the EU. Iceland still have them in place after their banking crash.
Moondancer - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to Big Ger:

For me, applying for British citizenship would entail giving up the citizenship of the (EU) country I was born in, which I would be reluctant to do. For all I know I'll have to go back to the place I was born for prolonged periods of time to look after my parents as they get older. Something which could be very difficult without citizenship or right of residence. Then there are the other practical consequences of giving up citizenship (no more right to state pension despite contributions already made) and the significant cost of obtaining UK citizenship.
summo on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to jimtitt:

> Not if the government decides otherwise, ..... most recently Harold Wilsons 1966 limit

exactly, 1966, that is 50 years ago, things have changed a little since then.

> Iceland still have them in place after their banking crash.

It was put in place because Iceland was in effect bankrupt and what cash was in it's banks were actually deposits from around 10 global institutions, not pensioners wishing to spend their few hundred quid a month. Last year they were looking at end the currency freeze, not sure if it's happened yet.
summo on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to Moondancer:

> For me, applying for British citizenship would entail giving up the citizenship of the (EU) country I was born in,

would you not become dual nationality, you can't undo the fact your were born there, or the nationality of your parents etc...
Rob Parsons on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to summo:

No - it all depends on the attitudes/laws of the country you're coming from. There is no one fixed position - and indeed the position of individual countries can (and does) change from time to time.
summo on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> No - it all depends on the attitudes/laws of the country you're coming from. There is no one fixed position - and indeed the position of individual countries can (and does) change from time to time.

I've heard of people ditching US nationality because of their tax rules even for US citizens not residing there.
jimtitt - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to summo:

> exactly, 1966, that is 50 years ago, things have changed a little since then.

> It was put in place because Iceland was in effect bankrupt and what cash was in it's banks were actually deposits from around 10 global institutions, not pensioners wishing to spend their few hundred quid a month. Last year they were looking at end the currency freeze, not sure if it's happened yet.

Well it lasted until 1979 in one form and another, who´ s naiive enough to think it will never happen again? The fact that Iceland imposed exchange control just illustrates nothing has fundamentally changed and it is macro-economics which will decide who does what with "their" money, not the desires of a few pensioners or Brexiteers.
Rob Parsons on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to summo:

> I've heard of people ditching US nationality because of their tax rules even for US citizens not residing there.

Voluntary renunciation of one's citizenship of a particular country might or might not be possible, but that's a separate issue.

The point I was making is that the country itself might consider that, by taking the citizenship of another country, you have *involuntarily* renounced your original citizenship, along with all privileges associated with it. That is in fact the position which many countries take: the UK, by contrast, has always had a relaxed view on the matter.
RomTheBear on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> The point I was making is that the country itself might consider that, by taking the citizenship of another country, you have *involuntarily* renounced your original citizenship, along with all privileges associated with it. That is in fact the position which many countries take: the UK, by contrast, has always had a relaxed view on the matter.

Given that Brits will be stripped of their EU citizenship, I'm not sure this will be the case going forward though.
TM :"If you're a citizen of the world, you're a citizen of nowhere"
1
nutme - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to Moondancer:
I had same thoughts as you. Ended up getting residenceship in UK and keeping European passport. It's cheaper than naturalisation - £65 vs £1000 and no silly tests. Still a lot of paperwork however. I couldn't find big enough envelop for all document, so posted it to Her Majesty in an amazon box
Post edited at 11:20
John2 - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to summo:

'I've heard of people ditching US nationality because of their tax rules even for US citizens not residing there'

Has Boris given up his US citizenship yet?
RomTheBear on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to nutme:
> I had same thoughts as you. Ended up getting residenceship in UK and keeping European passport. It's cheaper than naturalisation - £65 vs £1000 and no silly tests. Still a lot of paperwork however. I couldn't find big enough envelop for all document, so posted it to Her Majesty in an amazon box

Yeah I think the craziest is that you have to show evidence of every single instance of when you left / entered the country.
Pretty much impossible unless you are keeping a record of every single eurotunnel/flight/ferry you've ever taken for at least 5 years.

May I point out though that this permanent residence depends on the EU treaty.
When the UK leaves the EU it will be totally worthless unless the UK government decides to uphold this right - but I would certainly bet on it - even if they decide to keep it you won't have the same rights as permanent resident EU citizen, stuff like access to NHS, or state pension, or even access to legal aid, could be withdrawn (even if you're working and paying taxes).

In a nutshell, if you want to stay in this country, I would really recommend citizenship, it cost quite a lot if money and takes ages to be processed.
Post edited at 11:50
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wercat on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to RomTheBear:
I wonder what will be the rights of future EU widows/widowers who are currently married to UK subjects? This is NOT just an academic concern and I think quite a few people posting on this thread haven't reached an age where this has even occurred as a worry. I've already surpassed the age of my uncle at his death and would surpass the age of my father next year
Post edited at 11:43
RomTheBear on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to wercat:

> I wonder what will be the rights of future EU widows/widowers who are currently married to UK subjects? This is NOT just an academic concern and I think quite a few people posting on this thread haven't reached an age where this has even occurred as a worry. I've already surpassed the age of my uncle at his death and would surpass the age of my father next year

Yes, we just do not know. There is a lot of uncertainty as well for partners of EU nationals in the U.K, or dependants. Currently they have a right to family life but once we leave the EU they pretty much are shafted. Very unlikely that this government would guarantee their right given that they've done all they could to kick them out in the past, and are under popular pressure to reduce net migration.
Moondancer - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to summo:

No, as others have said, Britain allows dual citizenship, but some other countries (including the Netherlands) don't. (Apart from a few exceptional circumstances which don't apply to me, e.g. being born abroad).
Jim C - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to RomTheBear:

> Yeah I think the craziest is that you have to show evidence of every single instance of when you left / entered the country.

> Pretty much impossible unless you are keeping a record of every single eurotunnel/flight/ferry you've ever taken for at least 5 years.

Most Smart phones will give a record. (not proof of course)
Big Ger - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to Moondancer:

Which EU country would deny you dual citizenship? I'm not doubting you, just find that a bit odd.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Rob Parsons on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to Big Ger:

> Which EU country would deny you dual citizenship?

Moondancer has already given you an example: namely, the Netherlands.

See for yourself: https://www.government.nl/topics/dutch-nationality/contents/loss-of-dutch-nationality

> I'm not doubting you, just find that a bit odd.

There's nothing odd about it. The traditionally relaxed approach of the UK to this issue is in fact the oddity, and it has lead to lots of 'asymmetry'. (E.g. a UK citizen can acquire nationality of country X without losing their UK nationality; but not vice versa.)
Post edited at 15:22
skog on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to Big Ger:

> Sound advice I would have thought, a lesson to be learned from recent changes.

So, not only are the negative effects of your politics the fault of those suffering them, but you're doing them a favour by teaching them valuable life lessons? I see.

> Why is applying for citizenship of a country you wish to retire to "unpleasant"?

You don't find it stressful, time-consuming, expensive? Odd - of everyone I know who has done it, there is not a single one who didn't. You claim to value straight talking, so I'll ask - are you sure you aren't being a little dishonest here?

> Apart from not liking my politics, what on earth is unpleasant about ensuring your right to remain in a country has legal weight behind it?

Well, I don't like your politics at all, but I'm not sure why you slipped that in there. I imagine you were already aware, but EU citizens' right to remain here -did- have legal weight behind it - the law appears to be being changed to strip those rights.
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Big Ger - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to skog:
> So, not only are the negative effects of your politics the fault of those suffering them, but you're doing them a favour by teaching them valuable life lessons? I see.

We were asked for our thoughts, I gave mine. Maybe you should only read the posts of members who you agree with.

> You don't find it stressful, time-consuming, expensive? Odd - of everyone I know who has done it, there is not a single one who didn't. You claim to value straight talking, so I'll ask - are you sure you aren't being a little dishonest here?

I sat a test, paid my cash, attended a ceremony, became an, Australian. Its pretty much the same with our NZ application. I'm sorry if getting citizenship isn't just a case of sending off the vouchers from six crisp packets, governments seem to be a bit picky over who they grant full legal status to for some strange reason.

What in the name of all that is holy do you see as "dishonest" about my post?

> Well, I don't like your politics at all, but I'm not sure why you slipped that in there. I imagine you were already aware, but EU citizens' right to remain here -did- have legal weight behind it - the law appears to be being changed to strip those rights.

Hence my advice to see citizenship to those who would wish to remain in a country. But I'm sure if you disregard that, and continue to make the idea too hard, expensive, depressing and any other negative you can find, either an alternative will fall into your lap out of the sky, or the whole world will change just so as not to inconvenience you in any way.
Post edited at 16:58
Rob Parsons on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to Big Ger:

> I sat a test, paid my cash, attended a ceremony, became an, Australian. Its pretty much the same with our NZ application.

Out of interest, would you be so sanguine about doing any of that (or suggesting a similar thing to others) if it meant that you'd automatically lose your UK citizenship?
Big Ger - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to Rob Parsons:

If I was fully committed to living in the other country, then yes. Otherwise I'd be more circumspect about making a life changing decision as in the OP.
Rob Parsons on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to Big Ger:

That's a reasonable answer. I was just labouring the point that, for a UK citizen, taking the citizenship of another country is an easier and less final decision to make than it might be for a citizen of another country.
Post edited at 17:06
Bingers - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to Big Ger:

> Which EU country would deny you dual citizenship?

France
John2 - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to Bingers:

??? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_nationality_law#Dual_citizenship

'Dual citizenship was officially recognized for both men and women on 9 January 1973, since which time possession of more than one nationality does not affect French nationality'
skog on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to Big Ger:

> We were asked for our thoughts, I gave mine. Maybe you should only read the posts of members who you agree with.

No thanks, I like seeing the thoughts of people I disagree with. It's better when they don't go in a huff when they're challenged, of course - maybe you should only post thoughts you're prepared to defend, if you don't like that?

> I sat a test, paid my cash, attended a ceremony, became an, Australian. Its pretty much the same with our NZ application. I'm sorry if getting citizenship isn't just a case of sending off the vouchers from six crisp packets, governments seem to be a bit picky over who they grant full legal status to for some strange reason.

No surrendering your passport for half a year plus, swearing fealty to weird institutions, filling in hundred-page forms? If not, it's different here. And, more importantly, were you at risk of having to leave your home of a decade-plus if it went wrong? Were you having existing, established rights withdrawn?

> What in the name of all that is holy do you see as "dishonest" about my post?

It lacked acceptance of the difficulties and stressfulness of the process; I accept that could be ignorance rather than dishonesty, as your situation appears to be quite different.

> Hence my advice to see citizenship to those who would wish to remain in a country.

Interesting that you trust citizenship so, when we're already seeing that rights and laws can change around it.


> But I'm sure if you disregard that, and continue to make the idea too hard, expensive, depressing and any other negative you can find, either an alternative will fall into your lap out of the sky, or the whole world will change just so as not to inconvenience you in any way.

Ooh, stroppy again! Perhaps you are unable to cope with nasty situations while commenting on them, but we're already on our way to dealing with it - hard, expensive and depressing are not the same as -too- hard, expensive and depressing. Of course, there are a number of things which could go wrong, in which case, the UK may no longer be our home.

And I'll carry on being negative about bad things, thanks! Show me something positive for us and I'll maybe celebrate that with you, but I've no interest in pretending things aren't bad.
1
najki_2000 - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to Big Ger:

Slovakia. Which is pants as that's where I'm from fortunately children born to parents with different citizenships can have an exemption. So I shall wait till our little one is born
Big Ger - on 14 Oct 2016
In reply to skog:

I too enjoy reading the posts of those I disagree with, but when they start off in a huff telling me that my genuinely offered thoughts are "the most unpleasant thing you have posted," when they are not unpleasant and contain nothing offensive, I do get a bit stroppy.

Shall we leave it at that, and let others judge our advice on its own merits?
wbo - on 14 Oct 2016
In reply to Big Ger:
One thing I find interesting is the desire to keep a property in the uk 'just in case'. I sold mine shortly after leaving partially for practical reasons, but also as I felt committed to living in Norway.

Did people with such an insurance policy always assume they'd move back at some point? Did it affect a feeling of home? I do not think I could move to the UK now, nor do I miss it.
Big Ger - on 14 Oct 2016
In reply to wbo:
In my case it was deliberate, as I was unsure, having only spent 3 weeks in Aus prior to emigrating, whether I would want to remain permanently.

As it happens we will now retire to Blighty in a years time, so we're fortunate to have a paid off home to return to. Being a "belt and braces" type, I also have my Aussie citizenship should that not work out.
Post edited at 08:35
wbo - on 14 Oct 2016
In reply to Big Ger: so you never even considered selling, even after a few years or whatever. For me it was just another mortgage to manage.

Did you always intend to repatriate home to retire? I don't believe I will - I've changed, and the U.K. Has changed. (I think)
Doug on 14 Oct 2016
In reply to wbo:

I still have a house in Scotland, partly as I've been on a series of contracts (1-5 years) here in France and technically I'm on secondment. But as retirement (hopefully) isn't too far away, I'm more & more sure I won't go back and wish I'd sold the house some time ago. But I'm not sure now is the time to sell or to move the money to France. Like you I feel the UK (& particularly England) has changed a lot while I've been away.
ben b - on 14 Oct 2016
In reply to Paul Atkinson:

We need a new balloonatic to help out (on a pretty quiet on call roster); an interest in teaching would be a bonus...

Housing still cheap enough to offset the exchange rate. Good pay and GBP9k per annum for CPD travel.

Leftie university town with lots of good running

Anything else required?
;-)

cheers

b





Big Ger - on 14 Oct 2016
In reply to wbo:

> so you never even considered selling, even after a few years or whatever. For me it was just another mortgage to manage.

Seeing as due to the low interest rates the property became self funding, and eventually an income generator, there didn't seem to be any point in selling.

> Did you always intend to repatriate home to retire? I don't believe I will - I've changed, and the U.K. Has changed. (I think)

It was always a posibility, but for the past 5 years I've been suffering "hiraeth" as us Welsh say, so we're going to give it a whirl.

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