/ Reported homophobic attacks increased after Brexit vote

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Timmd on 12 Oct 2016

Reading this came as a surprise to me, it could almost imply that the vote to leave the EU was a reaction against something wider than that, but that would be unfair against the reasonable people who voted for Brexit (no sarcasm implied/intended).

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/oct/08/homophobic-attacks-double-after-brexit-vote

I don't know anything about the legislation for what constitutes a homophobic incident - in it being something construed as being homophobic/anti LGTB by the recipient like other legislation, but it's pretty obvious when somebody is calling you a 'f*cking queer', or 'dyke' in a derogatory way.

It makes me worry about the direction in which the UK is heading since the referendum. What is some peoples' problem?
.
Post edited at 16:29
9
ian caton on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Timmd:

Why suprised?

It was a victory for conservatism, small C intended, over liberalism. Liberalism has been dominant since the first world war.

Outspoken homophobia is a way of celebrating that long awaited victory, expect more.
9
off-duty - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Timmd:

Remember all that can be said of an increase in reported incidents is that "more incidents have been reported".

Whether more have occurred is unknown.
2
toad - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to off-duty: what would be a better metric?

1
balmybaldwin - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to toad:

I don't think there is a better one. However it's wise to remember the limitations of the metrics you do have.
john arran - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to balmybaldwin:

> I don't think there is a better one. However it's wise to remember the limitations of the metrics you do have.

Very true, and often there is a credible explanation to explain the unexpected result, in this case why the significant-looking increase may be just that of reported rather than committed crime. Except in this case I can't think of a credible explanation and none have been suggested in the article. Are we therefore to simply ignore a significant development simply because we don't like it?
1
Dauphin on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Timmd:

Homophobic 'hate crime ' mainly comes from ethnic minorities, mostly from the special Abrahamic devotees your normally so fond of defending as totally normal, rational, non high maintenance, upstanding pillars of the community; although there are plenty of bigoted Christians from Africa who like to point out batty boys on the streets of Vauxhall.

Not really 'attacks' though are they? Hardly pleasant and indifencable but being called a puff or a panel beater on the street doesn't constitute anything near physical violence.

Apparently online misogyny is now a hate crime, so god help us. Easy collars, someone being unpleasant tit on Facebook ot Twitter, cost f*ck all to investigate. Bingo, tough on crime, look at our figures. Meanwhile try reporting a burglary or an assault.

D
25
Postmanpat on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Timmd:
> Reading this came as a surprise to me, it could almost imply that the vote to leave the EU was a reaction against something wider than that, but that would be unfair against the reasonable people who voted for Brexit (no sarcasm implied/intended).

>
Along with ageist hate crime by all those young remainers because "the majority of senior citizens are politically and culturally informed either directly or through osmosis with their flaky-skinned peers by the Daily Mail.... We take pensioners driving licences away, why not their right to vote?" (GQ rag)
Post edited at 18:46
5
marsbar - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Dauphin:

I saw a (straight as it happens) man get punched in the face unprovoked for wearing make up. By a white English guy if that makes a difference. It's not just name calling, and if name calling isn't challenged, physical violence becomes more likely.

As for the religious aspect, I'd be the first to admit that a strong part of my conversion from agnostic to atheist was down to the unpleasant homophobic attitudes of the church. Similarly I am well aware that some Muslims hold homophobic views. However tarring everyone with the same brush is unnecessary. It's not my experience that Muslims go round giving gay people abuse. It's more likely to be expressed in private.
5
marsbar - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Dauphin:
https://medium.com/@tommauchline/15-things-i-learnt-about-islam-and-british-values-being-a-gay-boy-living-opposite-a-mosque-ebd385eb3113#.encjkfuq9


British people£s dry sarcasm works really well when confronting the times the more traditional parts of islam come face to face with modern gay culture. For example when I donated 3 sequined crop tops to the islamic relief Syria clothing drive, one of the older guys their smirked, shaking my hand and saying £our brothers and sisters in Syria thank you for the evening wear.
Post edited at 19:11
1
Dauphin on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to marsbar:

Straight white guy being punched in the face for wearing make up. Does that constitute a homophobic attack or does the victim need to identify as gay, bi or a mwhswm?

No idea.

D
3
Lusk - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Timmd:

How are hate crimes against LGBT people linked to Brexit?! We just hate foreigners, remember?
187 vs 72 is hardly a crime wave.

Anyway, shouldn't you be concentrating on your Geography A level?
6
marsbar - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Dauphin:

The attack was incorrect homophobia. Rather like when the idiots think turbans are Muslim, or attack paediatricians instead of peadophiles.
2
marsbar - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Lusk:

Those that think it's ok to be racist now think it is also ok to say homophobic things. Because Brexit.
10
FactorXXX - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to marsbar:

Those that think it's ok to be racist now think it is also ok to say homophobic things. Because Brexit.

How about the recent Clown Attacks?
Are they due to Brexit too?
1
wintertree - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to FactorXXX:

> How about the recent Clown Attacks?

Not to mention the recent rise in sunspot numbers.
1
Dauphin on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to marsbar:
So everyday dicks, rascist grandads....Brexit brought their latent antisocial tendencies bubbling to the surface in a cathexis of xenophobia, rascism and homophobia which fortunately for wider civil society, Guardian readers and all good people, the plod, despite undergoing cuts year upon year since the coalition government where elected were miraculously enabled to detect and prosecute (hint > targets). I'm not sure of the milleau which you inhabit, but one smells a rat.

D
Post edited at 20:24
2
Lusk - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to marsbar:

> Those that think it's ok to be racist now think it is also ok to say homophobic things. Because Brexit.

Do you mean the same people who were racist before Brexit think that homophobia is now OK?
You credit them with far too much intelligence (if that's the right word), Brexit will have made bugger all difference to them.
3
winhill - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Dauphin:

> Homophobic 'hate crime ' mainly comes from ethnic minorities, mostly from the special Abrahamic devotees your normally so fond of defending as totally normal, rational, non high maintenance, upstanding pillars of the community; although there are plenty of bigoted Christians from Africa who like to point out batty boys on the streets of Vauxhall.

Tempting but do you have any evidence?
1
Dauphin on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to marsbar:

How can homophobia be 'incorrect'? It exists as a emotional state and a set of ideas. The crime was an assault, you think it's worth more of the police and courts time because of the label attached to the motivation?

D
1
Postmanpat on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Timmd:

> I don't know anything about the legislation for what constitutes a homophobic incident -

> It makes me worry about the direction in which the UK is heading since the referendum. What is some peoples' problem?
>

Official guidance is that "any criminal offence which is perceived, by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by a hostility or prejudice. Evidence of … hostility is not required … [The] perception of the victim, or any other person, is the defining factor.’
ie. If someone claims to think it's a hate crime, then it is.

Incidentally, as of September 7th the Police were reporting that, “We have seen continued decreases in reports of hate crimes to forces and these reports have now returned to formerly seen levels for 2016. For this reason, we will return to our previous reporting procedures and will no longer be requiring weekly updates from forces."

I note that your link stated the GALOP helped 187 victims of LGBT hate crimes over 3 months. That's in population of 64 million and may be 1-2 million LGBT. It's 187 too many but it's not exactly endemic is it?


winhill - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to FactorXXX:

> How about the recent Clown Attacks?

> Are they due to Brexit too?

Marmite, Pot Noodle sales slump due to Brexit vote:

"Tesco pulls Marmite from online store amid price war with Unilever following plunge in value of pound"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/12/tesco-pulls-marmite-from-online-store-amid-price-war-with...
Dauphin on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to winhill:

Try being 'Out' in any heavily religious ethnic minority subculture, see how long you live. Maybe you get to the end of the week.

D
TobyA on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to winhill:

Yep, undoubtedly in some areas you do get homophobia from 'activist' Muslims of some more radical type, but "mainly"?
1
marsbar - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Dauphin:

Incorrect as in they thought he was gay but he isn't.

As for the other, these people seem to be alive still https://imaanlondon.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/13516745_624930461003079_262413638963020175_n.jpg
2
Wanderer100 - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to winhill:

> Marmite, Pot Noodle sales slump due to Brexit vote:

> "Tesco pulls Marmite from online store amid price war with Unilever following plunge in value of pound.

I don't care if Marmite goes up to £10 a jar. I will still be doing my patriotic duty and buy the stuff although apparently not from Tescos.
1
marsbar - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to FactorXXX:

The clown attacks are probably crap parenting, not Brexit. However I'm off to the shops just now, and if there isn't any marmite left, someone will pay.
1
marsbar - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Wanderer100:

I'm getting worried, I ran out yesterday. Maybe I should go to Waitrose?
1
Wanderer100 - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to marsbar:
> I'm getting worried, I ran out yesterday. Maybe I should go to Waitrose?

Waitrose? How bourgeois!
Post edited at 21:16
James Jackson on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Dauphin:

> How can homophobia be 'incorrect'? It exists as a emotional state and a set of ideas.

That's an interesting one. Here you are talking about the physical realisation of such ideas; it is that which is incorrect. Following that to its logical conclusion, if we link the emotional state with physical realisation, as you have done, how can rape be 'incorrect'? It exists as an emotional state and a set of ideas. How can murder be 'incorrect'? It exists as an emotional state and a set of ideas.

> The crime was an assault, you think it's worth more of the police and courts time because of the label attached to the motivation?

Yes, some crimes are because of the minority against which it is aimed. It's about ensuring that those who do not have, essentially, a defence in societal numbers, are not disadvantaged as a result.
2
Wanderer100 - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Timmd:

The world's full of ignorant people , racists, bigots, misogynists, liars, thieves, thugs, bullies, Daily Mail readers.
Fortunately they are very much in the minority.
Here endeth the lesson.
3
FactorXXX - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Wanderer100:

The world's full of ignorant people , racists, bigots, misogynists, liars, thieves, thugs, bullies, Daily Mail readers.

and people who read too much into 'statistics'...
aln - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Wanderer100:

>Daily Mail readers.

>

You had to throw in a prejudice at the end.

Dauphin on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to marsbar:
I'm guessing they are not in Tower Hamlets?

Actually on Euston Road near Hampstead road. Why not outside a masjid in Whitechapel?

D
Post edited at 00:43
Dauphin on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to James Jackson:

No one outside an Agatha Christie novel gives much thought as to the peculiar set of prejudices that go in the heads of rapists and murderers. Homophobic rapists and murderers are the worse kind though, I think we can agree. The Police and criminal justice system are maxed out working to identify, punish and prevent these kind of criminals.

D
1
Ridge - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to FactorXXX:

> The world's full of ignorant people , racists, bigots, misogynists, liars, thieves, thugs, bullies, Daily Mail readers.

> and people who read too much into 'statistics'...

I just ate a slice of fruit cake with very little fruit, Mrs Ridge's slice was full of fruit. I blame Brexit.

OK. I abhor people who attack those who are unable to defend themselves, but do people seriously believe the UK was some sort of idyll of tolerence pre Brexit?

I'm sure off duty or any other copper could regale you with tales of the commonplace violence, assault, rape, murder and harrassment that goes on day in and day out across the UK and every other country in the EU.

Yes, there's been a rise in 'reported' crime, which has, depending on the news network, now dropped back to levels below those that existed a few years ago when no-one had even heard the word Brexit.
James Jackson on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to Dauphin:

I don't think one can categorise the 'worst kind' of either of those sets. I certainly can't.
Casa Alfredino - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to winhill:

> Marmite, Pot Noodle sales slump due to Brexit vote:

> "Tesco pulls Marmite from online store amid price war with Unilever following plunge in value of pound"

It's the first time since the vote I've seen something positive occurring ;)
Big Ger - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to Timmd:

Look, I may only be in the UK for a short time, but this situation needs addressing RIGHT NOW!! It's simply unacceptable for this to go on.

I'm prepared to vote Corbyn and to back Remain. I'll even buy the Guardian in dead tree form and read it in public.

But FFS DO NOT deprive me of my morning marmite fix.
Dr.S at work - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to Big Ger:

I always had you down as a wrong un, you dirty marmite lover.
summo on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to Dauphin:

> Homophobic 'hate crime ' mainly comes from ethnic minorities,

I know people who won't work in Poland because they found it's less tolerant of people who are openly out. A little like Ireland they aren't exactly famous for their women's right over abortion etc.. So even the EU nations, that wish to remain 'in' aren't exactly tolerant or perfect in welcoming all equally.
1
summo on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to Big Ger:

> deprive me of my morning marmite fix.

plus; birds custard powder and bisto... our 3 essential UK exports that are then rationed out to last until the next visit or aid parcel from visitors.
Big Ger - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to summo:

Aye, fight and you may die. Run, and you'll live... at least a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willin' to trade ALL the days, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take... OUR MARMITE!!!
MonkeyPuzzle - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to Dauphin:

> Homophobic 'hate crime ' mainly comes from ethnic minorities, mostly from the special Abrahamic devotees your normally so fond of defending as totally normal, rational, non high maintenance, upstanding pillars of the community; although there are plenty of bigoted Christians from Africa who like to point out batty boys on the streets of Vauxhall.

Got anything to back that up? I'll bet that's not the experience of LGBT people living in small towns across the country and I'm doubtful you're even right for metropolitan areas either.

2
Lusk - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to summo:

> I know people who won't work in Poland because they found it's less tolerant of people who are openly out. A little like Ireland they aren't exactly famous for their women's right over abortion etc.. So even the EU nations, that wish to remain 'in' aren't exactly tolerant or perfect in welcoming all equally.

How dare you criticize the utopia that is the EU!




1
summo on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to Lusk:

> How dare you criticize the utopia that is the EU!

the crazy thing is one works virtually for a global team, currently based in Poland, but he feels happier being out living in Beijing and managing the asia bit from there. I don't think Hungary is any nicer for minorities and we won't mention how many women travel to the UK for a weekend abortion because it's illegal in Ireland. Half of Europe is still medieval, whilst the EU commissioner sips champagne and dines on canapes telling us how great the EU is for equality.

Bjartur i Sumarhus on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to FactorXXX:
Will all the BREXIT moaning die down when global warming sees to all the snowflakes ;-)
Post edited at 11:28
MonkeyPuzzle - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to summo:

> Half of Europe is still medieval, whilst the EU commissioner sips champagne and dines on canapes telling us how great the EU is for equality.

From The Daily mash, right?
7
marsbar - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to summo:

So, Poland, that would be the Christians being homophobic then.
3
FactorXXX - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to marsbar:

So, Poland, that would be the Christians being homophobic then.

No, that would be Polish people being homophobic.
Saying that Polish Christians are homophobic is as bigoted as saying British Muslims are. Then again, maybe you think that's fair game to say such things in your defence of British Muslims?
1
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marsbar - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to FactorXXX:

It was ^sarcasm^. I need a sign. I agree btw, at face value its a sweeping generalisation.

What I find amusing as the Grandaugher of a Jew a Protestant and 2 Catholics, and as the wife of an atheist Muslim, is that all those religions are about the same when it comes down to it.

I just wish people wouldn't make nasty comments based on race and religion and orientation.

I'm all for judging individuals for being tw*ts, but its daft to blame someone for what another memeber of a loosely related group does.
2
Bootrock on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to marsbar:

> an atheist Muslim,

Genuine interest, and feel free to tell me to mind my business. But what does this mean and or why did you word it this way?

An atheist is a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

Surely you are one or the other, not both?


wintertree - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

> Surely you are one or the other, not both?

A lot of religion is based in practice - observance of rules, participation in ritualised events etc. Ones ability to do so has little connection to ones actual belief(s).

Looked at that way from there may be a lot of atheist Christians about including a fair few clergy...
Bootrock on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to wintertree:

> A lot of religion is based in practice - observance of rules, participation in ritualised events etc. Ones ability to do so has little connection to ones actual belief(s).

So it's like going through the motions, but why? If you don't believe in the end goal/a god then why bother with all the participation stuff.
A non practising Muslim would make sense, i can't get my head around an athiest Muslim/Christian/Sikh/Jedi surely it's one or the other?

> Looked at that way from there may be a lot of atheist Christians about including a fair few clergy..

Sorry mate you lost me with thus?

2
KevinD - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to wintertree:

> Looked at that way from there may be a lot of atheist Christians about including a fair few clergy...

There is also those who just acknowledge the impact on their heritage, culture and upbringing. Richard Dawkins for example has occasionally called himself a cultural anglican.
1
Jon Stewart - on 14 Oct 2016
In reply to Dauphin:

> Homophobic 'hate crime ' mainly comes from ethnic minorities

Garbage. Ethnic minorities don't make up enough of the population to account for the homophobic hate crime - unless you can show differently, what you're saying is by common sense alone a load of crap.

Muslims and others from ethnic minorities are more likely to hold homophobic views though, that too is obvious.

> The crime was an assault, you think it's worth more of the police and courts time because of the label attached to the motivation?

The reason there is legislation about hate crimes is that such crimes have a wider effect on society than someone who is randomly assaulted, or for reasons that don't relate to being part of a minority group. If people are being attacked for being part of a minority, that community becomes scared, alienated, defensive. It's a good idea to differentiate hate crime and treat it more seriously for this reason.
3
summo on 14 Oct 2016
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> The reason there is legislation about hate crimes is that such crimes have a wider effect on society than someone who is randomly assaulted, or for reasons that don't relate to being part of a minority group.

if only society treated the violence triggered by alcohol in the home, or on a Friday and Saturday night as seriously as they do 'hate' related assault. The knock on effect to happier homes, less stress on police, A&E.... would be huge.
johncoxmysteriously - on 14 Oct 2016
In reply to Timmd:

It would be astonishing if this were not true. In general, releasing poison into the political process has an effect on society. Legitimise fear of people who are different, and you get more attacks upon them. I realise that refugees and homosexuals are not different in the same way, but that doesn't matter.

Look at Trump and his supporters celebrating the freedom he'll bring them from "political correctness". It's not a coincidence that Farage is a fan of Trump's.

jcm
4
winhill - on 14 Oct 2016
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Garbage. Ethnic minorities don't make up enough of the population to account for the homophobic hate crime - unless you can show differently, what you're saying is by common sense alone a load of crap.

How many LGBT 'Hate Crimes' do you think were recorded? It was only 7,000 2014/15, so given we have 10 million BMEs in the country, it's mathematically very possible.

> Muslims and others from ethnic minorities are more likely to hold homophobic views though, that too is obvious.

They are quite probably much less likely to report as well, so you have no way of telling if there is a sufficient difference in the relative rates to say where the bulk of those crimes are committed.

1
FactorXXX - on 14 Oct 2016
andyfallsoff - on 14 Oct 2016
In reply to winhill:

Are you really trying to argue that only ethnic minorities carry out homophobic attacks?
5
winhill - on 14 Oct 2016
In reply to andyfallsoff:

> Are you really trying to argue that only ethnic minorities carry out homophobic attacks?

Are you insane? What a ridiculous thing to say.
syv_k - on 14 Oct 2016
In reply to winhill:

At the risk of injecting facts into this discussion, I asked my partner, a trans woman, about the ethnicity of anyone who had harassed her in a sexual or gender-related manner, when she thought it was because the perpetrator had viewed her as trans.

She considered there were 8-10 incidents.
One young black man.
One young Eastern European man.
Two white British women.
The rest were young white British men.

None were ever reported, and not all would have crossed the threshold of becoming a crime, but may be indicative.
4
Bootrock on 15 Oct 2016
In reply to andyfallsoff:

> Are you really trying to argue that only ethnic minorities carry out homophobic attacks?

Is there any true way of finding out the facts of this? being the whole ethnicity thing, would the police openly show figures for fear of being "racist" much like the Rotherham case?

And there is an underlying problem of Domestic Abuse in Ethnic minority groups, due to different cultures and behaviours yet there isn't much of a way of reporting or viewing any figures.


> if only society treated the violence triggered by alcohol in the home, or on a Friday and Saturday night as seriously as they do 'hate' related assault. The knock on effect to happier homes, less stress on police, A&E.... would be huge.

Absolutely bang on. Imagine the impact and improvement.


1
marsbar - on 15 Oct 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

Utter bobbins. As usual.
4
Big Ger - on 15 Oct 2016
In reply to marsbar:

> Utter bobbins. As usual.

The irony......
2
marsbar - on 15 Oct 2016
In reply to Big Ger:

Oh come on. You know as well as I do, domestics are not easy for the police to deal with for a number of reasons. Being more interested in homophobic attacks isn't the problem.
2
Bootrock on 15 Oct 2016
In reply to marsbar:
Funny, that's what people said when I mentioned that prisons were breeding grounds for Islamic extremism and that we were facing an epidemic. And lo and behold months later, news articles and programmes on the problem. Which still isn't solved.

There is a problem, of domestic abuse with different ethnicity groups, some organisations admit it's a growing problem. Due to cultures, acceptable behaviours etc.

But because of political corectness the police aren't so easy to come forward when it involves ethnicities for fear of being branded racist.

You even did it yourself, automatically you say it's crap and I am a racist blah blah blah. Surely the best course would be to find out if there is a problem, what sort of numbers, what sort of enthnicities and what sort of solution to come up with.
Rather than just burying your head in the sand any automatically saying its bollocks.

A female politician in Europe was sexually assaulted by a refugee, but lied about the attackers ethnicity because she "didn't want refugees to get a bad name" for it.


And I still want to know what an atheist Muslim is?
Post edited at 13:11
1
marsbar - on 15 Oct 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

> And I still want to know what an atheist Muslim is?

Well technically I'm one as I converted to please the mother in law. Does that help?
8
MonkeyPuzzle - on 15 Oct 2016
In reply to syv_k:

Thanks for sharing that. What a shame that your partner has to deal with that shit.
off-duty - on 15 Oct 2016
In reply to syv_k:
> At the risk of injecting facts into this discussion, I asked my partner, a trans woman, about the ethnicity of anyone who had harassed her in a sexual or gender-related manner, when she thought it was because the perpetrator had viewed her as trans.

> She considered there were 8-10 incidents.

> One young black man.

> One young Eastern European man.

> Two white British women.

> The rest were young white British men.

> None were ever reported, and not all would have crossed the threshold of becoming a crime, but may be indicative.

Sounds very unpleasant and something no-one should have to tolerate. Are you sure that none would have "crossed the threshold" of being a crime? section 5 and 4A of the Public order Act being the most obvious offences.

Rereading the previous post I see that you said "not all" which probably makes this post superfluous.
Post edited at 16:11
marsbar - on 15 Oct 2016
In reply to off-duty:

She may not want to report it?
1
off-duty - on 15 Oct 2016
In reply to marsbar:
> She may not want to report it?

Absolutely.
Post edited at 16:10
Bootrock on 15 Oct 2016
In reply to marsbar:
> Well technically I'm one as I converted to please the mother in law. Does that help?

So you're a Muslim then, not an atheist? An agnostic Muslim I can sort of understand. but an atheist means to not beleive in a god or gods?


Post edited at 16:29
marsbar - on 15 Oct 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

I don't believe in any sort of God or Gods.
2
syv_k - on 15 Oct 2016
In reply to off-duty:

She didn't want to report it. Nicer to forget and move on than spending an afternoon rehashing it, with the perpetrator either having disappeared into the crowd or, if they were identifiable such as a guy serving in a petrol station late at night, could have come up with crappy excuses about just chatting her up and it being a horrible misunderstanding, they weren't cornering her, and they didn't see her shaking and looking terrified etc., so reasonable doubt could arise. Also, sadly, not all police are trained in trans issues and so there is a risk that the person she talks to puts their foot in it and makes it worse - it was only a few years ago that a LGBT-aware police liaison officer turned trans women away from women's toilets at a Pride event, causing one of the women to go into the gents where she was sexually assaulted.

We are now getting a string of women who say they were the victims of some nasty Donald Trump behaviour, but unsurprisingly, none of them reported it at the time. Even less likely 30 years ago.
1
Lusk - on 15 Oct 2016
In reply to marsbar:

> Well technically I'm one as I converted to please the mother in law. Does that help?

Atheist Muslim. So, kind of a lifestyle choice then, or some kind of permanent fancy dress party?
Ridge - on 15 Oct 2016
In reply to Lusk:

> Atheist Muslim. So, kind of a lifestyle choice then, or some kind of permanent fancy dress party?

As she said, it keeps the in-laws happy. Like getting a church wedding or becoming a non-practicing catholic. It's not exactly a new or difficult concept.
6
syv_k - on 15 Oct 2016
In reply to Ridge:

Reminds me of the old joke about the guy who was walking around Belfast when he felt a gun at his neck and a voice whispered "Catholic or Protestant?"
"Atheist... I don't believe in God."
"Ah, but is it the Catholic or the Protestant god you don't believe in then?"

I have an atheist friend who was brought up in the Irish Catholic heritage, so that is her culture. She grew up in a different environment and has different social values etc to an Irish Protestant.
off-duty - on 15 Oct 2016
In reply to syv_k:

Can understand she might not want to report it. Surprised that an LGBT liaison officer at a Pride event can make a mistake like that.

In relation to being prepared to report hate crime (or sexual assault) to the police - I think the police suffer from a bad press that is often unjustified. We deal with a reasonably large amount of these types of incidents on a fairly regular basis and in general aren't the ignorant/racist/thick/misogynist/sexist plod that we are regularly painted.
Simon4 - on 15 Oct 2016
In reply to Ridge:

> As she said, it keeps the in-laws happy. Like getting a church wedding or becoming a non-practicing catholic. It's not exactly a new or difficult concept.

Hard to see how "submitting" to the violent, evil, aggressive, intolerant, primitive, barbaric religion of Islam, started by a brutal, rapacious, thieving warlord who thought he heard voices, which explicitly regards women as massively inferior, little more than objects and also is quite explicit about the instruction to kill all heretics, non-believers and apostates, now and forever is understandable. Unless one understands it by recognising it as Stockholm Syndrome, which would explain the perpetual apologism for and appeasement of Islam, otherwise is is incomprehensible why a woman from an advanced Western democracy would convert to this death cult. Particularly one who claims to believe in no Gods at all.

It would be like converting to a religion started by the Waffen SS, or speaking of the virtues of "ordinary decent Nazis - who had nothing to do with the concentration camps or any of that sort of bad stuff", just to please the inlaws.
5
marsbar - on 15 Oct 2016
In reply to Simon4:

Oh Simon, I'm really not the submissive type. Neither am I apologetic for the kind of nonsense that goes on in Saudi for example. I just point out occasionally that most of the European and British Muslims I actually know in real life are not as you paint them. I'm just as quick to point out nonsense to them if it makes you feel better.
2
marsbar - on 15 Oct 2016
In reply to Lusk:

No fancy dress, no headscarf.
1
Jack B on 15 Oct 2016
In reply to Simon4:

> [...] violent, evil, aggressive, intolerant, primitive, barbaric religion of Islam, [...] brutal, rapacious, thieving warlord [...] kill all heretics, non-believers and apostates, [...] apologism for and appeasement of Islam [...] Waffen SS [...] Nazis [...] concentration camps [...]

Jesus Christ. I normally stay away from these threads because I know it gets a bit heated, but I didn't realise we had people spouting shit like that on UKC. Are you for real? Do you really think that more than a fifth of the worlds population, (including, apparently, Marsbar's husband) are part of what you describe? Do you even see the irony of comparing people to Nazis while making a vitriolic attack on a whole religion? You need to go take a long hard look in the mirror, I'm no bleeding-heart offended-on-everyone's-behalf liberal, but what you're writing is not OK.
3
Bootrock on 15 Oct 2016
In reply to marsbar:

> I don't believe in any sort of God or Gods.

So you're an athiest then?
1
wintertree - on 15 Oct 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

> But because of political corectness the police aren't so easy to come forward when it involves ethnicities for fear of being branded racist.

Which, in itself and if true, is racist. Allowing sensitivities to limit policing within a minority community means the police would be doing less to protect some minority people based on their race compared to the majority.

This message needs to come through loud and clear.
1
Jon Stewart - on 15 Oct 2016
In reply to Jack B:

S4's a great believer in the ISIS interpretation of Islam, and anyone who doesn't conform to that is "not a real muslim" etc... Same nonsensical crap, but from a slightly different angle.
2
Lusk - on 16 Oct 2016
In reply to marsbar:

> I don't believe in any sort of God or Gods.

Can you have a multiple of something that doesn't exist?
1
aln - on 16 Oct 2016
In reply to Simon4:

Maybe you could converse with marsbar?
1
Hardonicus - on 16 Oct 2016
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Don't get him started on the beeb. Although the bias seems to be going his way these days...
2
aln - on 16 Oct 2016
In reply to Jack B:
You must be new around here. Simon4's been around a long time, we keep him on as a testament to free speech. Doesn't matter how bigoted and nasty you are, there's always Simon to best you. And he just keeps spouting his shit.
Post edited at 00:10
4
Jim C - on 16 Oct 2016
In reply to Wanderer100:

> The world's full of ignorant people , racists, bigots, misogynists, liars, thieves, thugs, bullies, Daily Mail readers.
> Fortunately they are very much in the minority.

Not in Britain apparently, there are over 17 million of us.

5
Bootrock on 16 Oct 2016
In reply to aln:


People are quick to criticise Christiainty, and have made many a comment against it, or films and books disputing it, why should Islam be any different?

Can you like a Muslim but dislike Islam?


Big Ger - on 16 Oct 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

> People are quick to criticise Christiainty, and have made many a comment against it, or films and books disputing it, why should Islam be any different?


{Sarcasm} that's obvious. The vast majority of Muslims are non~white, whereas the vast majority of Chrisians (in the UK) are white. Those of a certain disposition find it mandatory to criticise the actions and beliefs of white people as they are "anti~racism."{/sarcasm}

Dauphin on 16 Oct 2016
In reply to James Jackson:

> I don't think one can categorise the 'worst kind' of either of those sets. I certainly can't.

Presumably that was my point.

D
1
Dauphin on 16 Oct 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

> People are quick to criticise Christiainty, and have made many a comment against it, or films and books disputing it, why should Islam be any different?

> Can you like a Muslim but dislike Islam?

Yeah if course. But it's hardly a uniform set of beliefs or cultural norms, so you'd have a difficult job keeping up with your universal disapproval. The pointy finger crew, yeah f*ck them.

D
1
Dauphin on 16 Oct 2016
In reply to Simon4:
Hard to see how "submitting" to the violent, evil, aggressive, intolerant, primitive, barbaric religion of Islam, started by a brutal, rapacious, thieving warlord who thought he heard voices, which explicitly regards women as massively inferior, little more than objects and also is quite explicit about the instruction to kill all heretics, non-believers and apostates, now and forever is understandable. Unless one understands it by recognising it as Stockholm Syndrome, which would explain the perpetual apologism for and appeasement of Islam, otherwise is is incomprehensible why a woman from an advanced Western democracy would convert to this death cult. Particularly one who claims to believe in no Gods at al

Presumably you'd apply the same logic to those women converting to fundamentalist or born again Christianity, Jehovah's witnesses and orthodox Judaism?

Not sure what's more depressing, religious converts to stupid or non religious converts to stupid. How can you convert to anything? My previous state of non faith and unbelief lead to a state of belief because I could trust the same set of prejudices and beliefs to lead me in a logical progression to being one of god's chosen ones? Still got two arms and two legs, a brain and cardiovascular system, I've got news for you, your exactly the same kiddo, its just now mostly everyone thinks your a stupid twunt.

D
Post edited at 13:30
2
aln - on 16 Oct 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

> Can you like a Muslim but dislike Islam?

Of course, but if you know of Simon4's posting history over the years, he's went beyond that many times.

1
Dauphin on 16 Oct 2016
In reply to winhill:


> Tempting but do you have any evidence?

Not really but the assumption from the O.P. is that reported homophobia is connected to Brexit in a direct way and therefore juxtaposed onto the jubilation of Britain first types and ukip voters. Having lived amongst mixed communities in the north and south I've been called a faggot more times than I can remember from black and Asian men in the street and at work. I've worked with young gay men from all sorts of backgrounds and the abuse from those in minority communities is definately more visible and violent.

Forget the SAS, every mincing black queen from South London deserves a bravery medal.

D


2
marsbar - on 16 Oct 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

There are aspects of Islam I dislike. Most of them in common with the aspects of Christianity I dislike. It may be a surprise to some to know that in fact it is a shared holy book that is homophobic, both Islam and Christianity have a large overlap. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2018

As for the aethiest thing, it is about identity as well as belief.
1
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marsbar - on 16 Oct 2016
In reply to Dauphin:

Fair enough.
marsbar - on 16 Oct 2016
In reply to Dauphin:

I just converted to keep my mother in law happy. It means a lot to her, and nothing to me. Feel free to call me a hypocrite.
2
Bootrock on 16 Oct 2016
In reply to marsbar:

Surely she should be happy that her son found someone who loved him, regardless?

If it meant nothing to you then why do it? Do you put atheist or Muslim down on forms? Why not say atheist but when the old battle axe asks about it, then you say your a Moslem?

1
marsbar - on 16 Oct 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

I generally put none of your beeswax.
1
Bootrock on 16 Oct 2016
In reply to marsbar:

Same. Oh well. Cheers for answering anyway.

winhill - on 17 Oct 2016
In reply to Ridge:

> As she said, it keeps the in-laws happy. Like getting a church wedding or becoming a non-practicing catholic. It's not exactly a new or difficult concept.

That's a hideously Western view, that it is some sort of benign white lie to ensure domestic bliss.

In the muslim world it has a different meaning altogether, it's a demonstration of one of the ways the Islam maintains it's dominance over culture in the face of attrition.

In Islam you can do lots of bad things but if you remain muslim you can be forgiven, ex-muslims don't have that option, so even atheists will still identify as some type of 'bad muslim',

There was a decent program this week about it on ITV:

Exposure: Islam's Non-Believers

Dr Omer El-Hamdoon from the Muslim Association of Britain says people can leave the religion of their own free will and should not be punished. But he says it is not surprising that those who do leave are shunned. He says: “The Muslim community is a community based on religion, so if a person chooses to stop being a Muslim they can’t really expect that the Muslim community is still going to say to them, ‘You are still part of our community.’”

The programme also reports on how the danger for ex-Muslims who live in Islamic countries can be even higher. Apostasy carries the death penalty in a dozen Islamic countries. Atheists face a double threat - persecution by their own government, and the risk of murder at the hands of Islamist gangs.

Bonya Ahmed, whose writer and blogger husband Avijit Roy was brutally killed in the streets of Bangladesh, speaks about the attack and how she is trying to rebuild her life in America. Avijit was murdered because he spoke out against religious fundamentalism. They are just two of many atheist bloggers and intellectuals who have been attacked by Islamist gangs wielding machetes in Bangladesh.


It was put together by Maryam Namazie, who worryingly has been no-platformed by the NUS and is the bete noire of the regressive left whose fetishism of Islam and muslims has led them to join in enforcing muslim racist norms.
Lusk - on 17 Oct 2016
In reply to marsbar:

> I just converted to keep my mother in law happy. It means a lot to her, and nothing to me. Feel free to call me a hypocrite.

Don't you feel you've subjected yourself to their will, religious nonsense will?

I'm hardcore 100% non God, the inlaws can go and ....
1
summo on 17 Oct 2016
In reply to Lusk:

> I'm hardcore 100% non God, the inlaws can go and ....

same here, I was asked be a god parent, I said I would but I would make it my life long mission to make sure they never believed a word of it. I would happily fulfill the 'duties' in other aspects, but nothing what so ever religious. It worked, I tend to buy presents that involve play, science and broadening the mind etc... For the christening present I bought shares in an ethical trust fund, none of the silver cr&p that just gathers dust for decades. Whilst I obviously had to lie in church, I can justify this as I potentially saved the child from a god parent who actually believed this rubbish.

One of the sister in laws kids was confirmed to keep the inlaws happy, I refused to go or to take our kids etc.. they weren't impressed. So much for people of faith respecting other people's beliefs.

If people in civilised countries in Europe can't be true to their education and thoughts, then we have little hope of ever changing places where they happily kill each other over minor religious squabbles.

summo on 17 Oct 2016
In reply to marsbar:
> I just converted to keep my mother in law happy. It means a lot to her, and nothing to me. Feel free to call me a hypocrite.

I think you should woman up, if you ever have kids what kind of example are you setting? Or keep on playing the dutiful housewife, follow the religious rules, keeping the peace at home etc...

Ps. if your man is worth anything he should back you up .
Post edited at 07:35
marsbar - on 17 Oct 2016
In reply to summo:

I made my choice, he didn't make me, he would and does back me. As for me playing the dutiful housewife, anyone that knows me would find that hilarious. In the highly unlikely event of us having children they would be brought up to think for themselves.

My choice is that it isn't important enough to me to care about something that isn't real, and if it makes an old lady with an old fashioned world view happy, why not. It has no impact on my day to day life.
1
marsbar - on 17 Oct 2016
In reply to Lusk:

I respect your way, but I don't care enough to be that hard core.
1
marsbar - on 17 Oct 2016
In reply to winhill:

It's a Western view because I live in the west. That is my reality. Other people are not so lucky I know.
1
jkarran - on 17 Oct 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

> So you're a Muslim then, not an atheist? An agnostic Muslim I can sort of understand. but an atheist means to not beleive in a god or gods?

Bravo! Good for you for telling someone what they are rather than listening to how they describe themselves and accepting it.
jk
5
Ridge - on 17 Oct 2016
In reply to marsbar:

> My choice is that it isn't important enough to me to care about something that isn't real, and if it makes an old lady with an old fashioned world view happy, why not. It has no impact on my day to day life.

^ This.

I suspect marsbars mum-in-law isn't the head of some fundamentalist group intent on establishing a caliphate. Marsbar telling her it's all fairytales and she can go f*ck herself isn't going to deal a hammer blow for atheism and shatterer the islamic world, it's just going to upset some old biddy.

I'm as anti-religion in general, (and radical islam in particular), as the next atheist, but I couldn't be arsed arguing with the in-laws about things that don't even exist. Obviously if they started banging on about beheading the kuffirs then that would be different, but somehow I don't think that's the case here.
2
Bootrock on 17 Oct 2016
In reply to jkarran:

Oh shut up. You doorknob. For once I thought I would be a little nicer about things, instead of brash.
I got my answer and I moved on. I didn't rant, I didn't have a go. You just wanted to get a dig in, make yourself feel all proud and special for standing up to the big bad "racist". Give you that warm fuzzy feeling. Just the same as when you like status' on Facebook I bet. That false feeling of accomplishment when in actual fact you have done F all.

If you read my posts, you will see I struggled to see the point of an Atheist Moslem. And in fact by definition you can not be. But an Agnostic one I could understand.







5
summo on 17 Oct 2016
In reply to marsbar:

> My choice is that it isn't important enough to me to care about something that isn't real, and if it makes an old lady with an old fashioned world view happy, why not. It has no impact on my day to day life.

have you considered that perhaps you should stand by 'your' values, because the chances are this old lady is only thinking this way, because she was brought up within a society or family where free choice or speech wasn't an option? Who knows whilst she can't publically say so, she might respect you for it and even be a little jealous of the cultural freedom you enjoy?
jkarran - on 17 Oct 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

Have I ever called you a racist? I have suggested you might be a knuckle dragger but then those were your own words reflected back at you. I simply don't know if you're a racist but given your decision to introduce the archaic and potentially offensive spelling moslem to a thread where others have been using the modern form I do have another small data point.
jk
2
Bootrock on 17 Oct 2016
In reply to jkarran:

> Have I ever called you a racist? I have suggested you might be a knuckle dragger but then those were your own words reflected back at you. I simply don't know if you're a racist but given your decision to introduce the archaic and potentially offensive spelling moslem to a thread where others have been using the modern form I do have another small data point.

There's 2 spellings. Both are acceptable. I did it to see what reaction I would get. And you bit.

And nope I am not a racist, but a few of you allude to it. And oh wait I voted Leave, so that must make me a racist then!

You can't be an Atheist that believes in a god. You can be Agnostic Muslim/Moslem but not an Athesit Muslim/Moslem.

3
john arran - on 17 Oct 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

Can you be an atheist Jew?
2
jkarran - on 17 Oct 2016
In reply to Bootrock:
> There's 2 spellings. Both are acceptable. I did it to see what reaction I would get. And you bit.

So you knowingly elected to use an archaic form some people find offensive just to see what reaction you'd get? How edgy of you! I wish I'd seen that coming eh.

There are two spellings. They are not considered equally acceptable in spite of your assertion.

> And nope I am not a racist, but a few of you allude to it. And oh wait I voted Leave, so that must make me a racist then!

Thanks for clearing that up.
jk
Post edited at 12:07
3
Bootrock on 17 Oct 2016
In reply to jkarran:

> So you knowingly elected to use an archaic form some people find offensive just to see what reaction you'd get? How edgy of you! I wish I'd seen that coming eh.

Just taking a leaf out of the wet lettuce snowflake book.

> There are two spellings. They are not considered equally acceptable in spite of your assertion.

Actually they are. And was widely used before Muslim became the Norm.

Muslim, Moslem
Qu'ran, Quran, Koran.

Same thing.


> Thanks for clearing that up.

According to you lot that is. But I am not prepared to get into a "look at how diverse I am" competition.


2
jkarran - on 17 Oct 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

> Actually they are. And was widely used before Muslim became the Norm.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=archaic

Actually they're not equally acceptable, moslem is now commonly used as and taken to be an insulting form. But then of course you knew that or you wouldn't have used it to see who'd 'bite'. You can't have this both ways.
jk
4
Bootrock on 17 Oct 2016
In reply to jkarran:
noun: Moslem
1.
a follower of the religion of Islam.


A Muslim, sometimes spelled Moslem,[1] relates to a person who follows or practises the religion of Islam,[2] a monotheistic and Abrahamic religion based on the Quran.
Post edited at 13:52
Timmd on 17 Oct 2016
In reply to Dauphin:
> Homophobic 'hate crime ' mainly comes from ethnic minorities, mostly from the special Abrahamic devotees your normally so fond of defending as totally normal, rational, non high maintenance, upstanding pillars of the community; although there are plenty of bigoted Christians from Africa who like to point out batty boys on the streets of Vauxhall.

I'm against prejudice and assumptions.

> Not really 'attacks' though are they? Hardly pleasant and indifencable but being called a puff or a panel beater on the street doesn't constitute anything near physical violence.

I would see it as a spectrum of attacks, in that being insulted etc in the street can still make somebody feel worse, make them more fearful about going out, make them look over their shoulder, make them more likely to be depressed, make it harder for them to accept themselves. There's figures which suggests gay and lesbian people are slightly more likely to get cancer. With emotional and physical and mental health being intertwined. It wouldn't be impossible for the life experiences of some LGTB's and their health to be linked
Post edited at 16:55
2
winhill - on 17 Oct 2016
In reply to jkarran:

> Actually they're not equally acceptable, moslem is now commonly used as and taken to be an insulting form.

Don't tell the Moslems, then.

http://www.americanmoslemfdtn.org/

Of course some Muslims object, like the Muslim Brotherhood and their front the Muslim Council of Britain, mainly on an over contrived misuse of the english language.

They see as a power and control issue, that Muslims should control the manner of the conversation about them.

They have their own enforcers of course but then they can also rely on people like you to do their racist bullying for them.

1
winhill - on 17 Oct 2016
In reply to marsbar:

> It's a Western view because I live in the west. That is my reality.

I live in the West but luckily it's not my reality.

If she said you were too white would you black up and sing

Mammy,
My little Mammy,
I'd walk a million miles
For one of your smiles,

Now that race and religion are the same thing, asking someone to change their religion should be as bad as asking them to change their race.

It's not the same as the old biddy arguing about the bridesmaid dresses, she's just being racist.

2
marsbar - on 17 Oct 2016
In reply to winhill:
Race and religion are not the same thing. However I agree her world view is old fashioned.
Post edited at 21:24
2
marsbar - on 17 Oct 2016
In reply to Ridge:

Spot on.
1
marsbar - on 17 Oct 2016
In reply to john arran:
Probably.
Daniel Radcliffe is apparently.
Post edited at 21:28
Yanis Nayu - on 17 Oct 2016
In reply to jkarran:

Why is Moslem deemed offensive? That's another memo no-one sent me.
marsbar - on 17 Oct 2016
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

I must admit I didn't get that one either. I just thought it was autocorrect.
1
jkarran - on 18 Oct 2016
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

> Why is Moslem deemed offensive? That's another memo no-one sent me.

As I understand it it's because the the English pronunciation of the two words when read phonetically has two different meanings in Arabic, one of which is considered offensive.

If pointing out the way the different spelling is knowingly used by some to subtly denigrate makes me a racist bully as Winhill asserts then we do live in a funny old world. Perhaps I am.
jk
3

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