UKC

Hi all... this thread is an off-shoot of this one http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=651584

I was all set to do this walk of "pinnacle ridge and striding edge" which this log http://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=56798

describes as "very easy to begin .... more interesting at an area of massive, slabby blocks known as 'the Cannon'. Some awkward clambering here, but nothing very exposed." and goes on to say that there is an escapable crux later with "a plentiful supply of positive holds and a crack just the right width for a boot-jamb where it's needed." But I get the impression the author was on their own and not roped up.

Then other guides say it is a Grade III and they rope up *every* time they get to the crux!?!

I won't be roping up - what are people's opinions? Is this hard/very dangerous in fine weather?
FYI I've been rock climbing maybe 4-5 years indoor and about 1 year outdoor up to sport about 6a+ lead reasonably comfortable.

Thanks very much for any advice again!

In reply to elliot.baker:

a client will generally be roped up something that is a little exposed or risky. But that shouldn't impact how you view it.

If you climb 6a in stickies that's fine, but what have you done on rock in boots, when it's a little damp, polished, greasy and the holds aren't marked with chalk. If you have some proper rock climbing experience ie... not just sport, then pinnacle ridge isn't anything to be concerned about at all.

In reply to elliot.baker:

You'll be fine soloing. The crux is at worst a move or two of Diff standard off a big ledge. The pinnacle above is more exposed but easier.

In reply to elliot.baker:

If it's misty, the hardest thing is finding the start. The crux is avoidable and you'll know if you're happy on it before you get stuck.

In reply to elliot.baker:

One of the more challenging parts is finding it! I think there is an old triangular shaped sheep pen in the valley directly opposite when in the right area to head up the scree to the scrambling. I put my rock shoes on when I got there as I don't like climbing in walking boots. I found it exposed in places and an exciting solo day out. As people have said, you can avoid any bits you don't fancy.

In reply to Mark Bull:

A correctly graded scramble cannot have diff moves in it. Stop grade inflating

In reply to zimpara:
I'm afraid the British Mountaineering Council disagree with you on this one....

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/understanding-scrambling-grades

Still what would they know?

As a side point it's actually a bit dangerous to spout climbing advice if you're not sure it's correct. You have got a bit of a record of doing this now.

I don't intend that to be confrontational just a word of friendly advice.

In reply to zimpara:

I'm pretty sure one of my walking/scrambling guides makes mention of Grade 3 scrambles 'having the attributes of Grade 2 routes but with the addition of short sections of climbing to Diff standard' or words to that effect.

In reply to zimpara:

It's been acknowledged as having moves of Diff on it since at least 1988 when I first went up there.

In reply to lummox:
Much as I am surprised to be defending the zimp I think he has a point. A move of Diff is not the same as a move of technicality normally found on a diff. Some scrambles do have genuine diff moves but maybe should be graded climbs (eg one pinnacle descent from its namesake on Skye... so only a scramble if you bypass that climbing descent by abseil). The Pinnacle Ridge in the lakes only has a couple of moves of diffish level technicality that are on good holds, unexposed and above a good landing. In adjectival terms it's an easy climb (ie a scramble). In my view its a grade II scramble with some lovely exposed III options on the pinnacles and grade IV to find first time out, even on a sunny day.

In reply to zimpara:

OK, so I could have said that it has a couple of moves of tech 2c or 3a standard, but that won't mean much to most people ( except Offwidth )

In reply to elliot.baker:

Poor Elliot only asked about Pinnacle ridge. I'm sure he didn't need to know about pedantics.

In reply to elliot.baker:

For me the hard bit is findingthe bloody thing ! I'm still not sure whether I've doneit or not. Mind you I've always tried to find it in bad visibility

In reply to elliot.baker:

Hi Elliot, whilst I haven't done Pinnacle Ridge scramble, I wouldn't recommend you solo it without ropes bearing in mind your previous experience. I simply can't agree with all the other posters saying "you'll be fine" and "it's just a few moves of diff" etc.

In my opinion you should get your hands on the two "Scrambles in the Lake District" Cicerone guidebooks. Then try soloing a few more grade 1s and 2s. If this goes well then by all means look at doing Pinnacle Ridge (grade 3) solo. There's no rush, so progress comfortably through the grades and the ridge will still be there next year.

The striding edge horseshoe is a great day out in its own right, which you will really enjoy if you liked Crib Goch and Tryfan North Ridge.

Just my two cents

In reply to Offwidth:

to be fair, I've generally done it in semi winter nick, in mountaineering boots. Rather than argue the toss though, I would suggest that if he's not used to doing this sort of gubbins, a rope and couple of nuts can't hurt.

In reply to elliot.baker:

Pinnacle Ridge and Striding Edge in the one walk is a fairly contrived thing, a big day out, and with a very unbalanced distance/ascent:actual scrambling ratio. You would probably be better off, especially with limited daylight, and certainly with the experience I'm assuming you have from this thread, treating them as separate routes.

Striding Edge and Swirral Edge is the classic Lakeland ridge round in the mode of the snowdon horseshoe. It's significantly easier than Crib Goch (as per your previous thread), not quite grade 1 scrambling but with a nice airy ridge crest feel. Busy at weekends, but if you've not been before then it's a must-do. As per this route card (though of course it won't be snowy this weekend): http://www.ukhillwalking.com/logbook/r/?i=71

For those of limited mountain experience Pinnacle Ridge is a totally different proposition to Striding Edge or Crib Goch. You've sensibly said in the previous thread that you'd prefer to try more grade 1 scrambles before moving into grade 2. It may be that some comments on this thread are coming from climbers who don't remember what it feels like to be just starting out on proper mountain scrambles. Your indoor and sport climbing grades are basically irrelevant here: mileage on mountaineering ground is what counts, and not knowing you personally the only sensible advice would be to build up gradually. For the avoidance of doubt PR is a solid grade 3, with a definite (albeit short) rock climbing crux and bags of exposure above this. It's much more of a mountaineer's scramble than a hillwalker's scramble like Crib Goch, if that makes sense. If you did want to do it, I'd suggest (predictably but sensibly) doing it as part of a round of St Sunday Crag, Fairfield, Hart Crag and the Hartsop above How ridge. However i would suggest that you don't do it just yet.

Instead of PR, this trip anyway, I'd make another predictable but fab suggestion: the round of Sharp Edge and Hallsfell Ridge on Blencathra. That's much more of a scramble than Striding Edge, and much more exposed. A lot closer to Crib Goch in terms of feel (and equally useful grade 1 experience to have under your belt if you're looking to go up the grades later). Here's a route description for that: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/logbook/r/?i=118

Aside from these two classic ridge routes you're obviously spoilt for choice in the Lakes for big hillwalking rounds. Here are a few:

Coledale round: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/logbook/r/?i=156
Scafell Pike and Great End via the Corridor route: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/logbook/r/?i=78
Bowfell and Crinkle Crags: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/logbook/r/?i=86

My suggestion for your trip this weekend though would be Striding/Swirral Edge as the bigger day followed by Sharp Edge/Hallsfell Ridge for your second shorter (albeit more scrambly) day

In reply to elliot.baker:

Elliot, for future trips this article on classic grade 1s might be useful too: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/page.php?id=7637

In reply to zimpara:

have a go at wrinkled tower, broad stand, yr esgair, bilberry terrace, etc... then come back and say this..

In reply to elliot.baker:

It was originally graded 3 in the Cicerone guide, but when book 2 was published, Brian Evans downgraded it on the basis that the loose rock and tricky route finding had now disappeared due to traffic (or words to that effect). It's also possible to bypass the tricky bit (though that rather removes the point of doing it in the first place IMO).

I don't know what the current editions give it, but to me, exposed grade 2 is about right.

In reply to elliot.baker:

... Advice worth following from Dan Bailey above. Also, you can usually find some company for scrambling by posting in the 'lifts and partners' forum on this site with your dates and planned routes. You will learn a lot by teaming up with someone more experienced. Enjoy

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

So many responses! Thanks all - especially Dan this is good stuff so thanks for writing such a lengthy and consdiered response.

I had planned to do that Coledale horseshoe walk as one of the two, the situation now is that we actually have two reasonably full days there, should be arriving for 10 tomorrow and then camping two nights so all day Sat. as well.

You have somewhat put me off - I don't like the sound of solo-ing even the easiest "rock climbing" move in an exposed position without a rope (that's not what I signed up for!) Maybe with more scrambling experience.

I had lined up that Sharp edge/hallsfell one as well but thought it looked a bit short for a full day...

Perhaps what I will do is:

day 1) striding/swirral or sharp edge/hallsfell
day 2) coledale round

Which would you (all) say is the better choice for day 1? If I was to arrive at 10.30am?

Thanks again everyone.

In reply to elliot.baker:

striding for me

In reply to elliot.baker:



Ir seems you're very new to scrambling but have got some rock climbing experience. I would therefore say that it's not so much a case of hard how Pinnacle Ridge scramble is but more a question of whether or not you can handle the positions and exposure. Only you know the answer to that one. As others have said your best course of action is to forget about Pinnacle Ridge for the time being and work on easier and less serious scrambles.

When you get to the point where you feel close to being able to tackle Pinnacle Ridge, a good scramble to try first would be the West Ridge on Pike Of Stickle. This is similar in nature to Pinnacle Ridge but shorter and less exposed, bit easier too.

In reply to zimpara:


I would certainly agree as far as the Lake District is concerned. With Steve Ashton's scrambles in North Wales there are certain sections where you could debate the matter such as the crux corner on Dolmen Ridge, the crack and bulge on East Gully Ridge and the traverse on Main Gully Ridge to name a few. In my vast wealth of experience however, I have yet to find a single move of Diff standard on any graded Lake District scramble.

In reply to elliot.baker:

I've only done it in full winter conditions, but distinctly remember using a gloved fist jam on the crux! It seemed a bit thrutchy, just for a few metres, but if you are new to scrambling I imagine that bit could be intimidating.

Take care but have fun.

In reply to elliot.baker:
As per Toby I've only done it in the winter, and i guess nearby 30 years ago. But, didn't it used to go in the relevant Climbing guide, with a grade?

In reply to elliot.baker:

Hi Elliot, I did Pinnacle Ridge last week. As others have said, one of the hardest bits is getting to the start and locating the start, especially as the tree on the right (40m up) appears to be located at the bottom of the gully now! The best guide is the "gun" feature pointing left about 50m up. Tbh the entire lower ridge is just a toppling pile of blocks, we called it Jenga Rock Ridge. We roped up for the crux (as previously described, moves of Diff and about 8 metres in height, I was wearing scrambling shoes) which could be more difficult in a period of wet, but currently is dry and easier, and I believe is escapable, which reduces the whole thing to Grade 2. After the crux, you need to negotiate the pinnacles (exposed but not tricky) and then simple scrambling and walking to the summit...

In reply to Elliot






As 10.30 is my normal arrival time in the lakes after an 0500 start from home I would.....

Walk up to Greenside Mine (or hook a lift from someone heading up to the Helvellyn Hostel). Go towards the Tarn and Helvellyn but bear right into Kepple Cove. From the first busted dam go straight up Catstycam North West Ridge. It's a bit scrambly, but not a scramble.
From the summit do the classic Swirral and Striding Edge Traverse.
If you are really up for it, after Helvellyn top, go off the front of Nethermost Pike down to Hard Tarn and back up one of the gullies to finish down Striding Edge.
Big day, I have done in winter conditions once and that was a really big day (with a big drive home!).
Best thing is to ignore all these suggestions, especially mine, and make a plan as you go depending on how you feel. Enjoy!!

In reply to PieMan:
The crux section is nothing like 8m!?? That would be a Diff and as a Scramble 3S at least. My grade of II includes this crux which does have a few semi-enclosed moves of Diff technicality just off the ground. I guess what you call Jenga most would call a boulder slope.. quite common in mountain approaches..

In reply: i notice slab and notch on pillar (classic grade 3 scramble) is a climb in ukc logbook.
yet lorton gully is still a scramble..

In reply to elliot.baker:

just got back. What I did was:

day 1) started at 11.30 after pitching tents etc. the Helvellyn / striding/ swirrel a loop we made up as we went along working from a gpx with a "there and back the same way" map. This was good fun and I would describe
striding as significantly less intimidating than crib goch and a good intro to ridge scrambling for anyone who wants a go, in the dry.

I could look over to the left to see St sunday and pinnacle and was elated that I'd chosen not to do it!! Maybe another day.

day 2 (today)) coledale horse shoe - really good walk. nice views the whole way around. would recommend to anyone.

Saw three shooting stars last night as well, amazing star visibility there!

A good two days! Thanks for the advice everyone.

In reply to malk:


Slab and Notch has been included in rock climbing guidebooks for well over 100 years so it's hardly surprising it's got a climbing grade. Lorton Gully also appears in both climbing and scrambling guides, but is done much less often, so presumably the first person to log it on UKC was using a scrambling guide and those who have approached it as a rock route just ticked the existing entry. If you're that bothered then why not just add it yourself as a rock route?

In reply to Offwidth:


I'm confused by this as I think this is exactly what they mean and what I have found in practice. I think they are saying there may be a move or two about as hard as a crux of standard (or perhaps easy) diff however the character of the route only makes it a grade III scramble (around easy Mod or so). Just as you may find a move of 4c on some Severes. What I think they are not saying is that adjectively a grade III scramble may be as hard as a Diff.

I can think of several scrambles with moves as hard as the crux of a diff on them: Wrinkled Tower and Milestone Buttress Approach and Continuation spring to mind.

In reply to CurlyStevo:


Along similar lines, is there not a theory that although the east ridge of the In Pinn is a Mod, the crux - that high step up just below the halfway belay stance - is actually a Diff move? As a non-climber and only occasional scrambler, I found that move significantly harder than anything else on the route (and the exposure makes it quite daunting), and I've heard others say the same.

In reply to CurlyStevo:


That is then a S 4c then no?

In reply to zimpara:

yes crack and corner at the roaches for example, what I am saying is that a crux of an easy diff may be something like 3a/3b and you may well find a move or two of this on a grade III scramble. But the character of the route as a whole does not merit a diff.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Having seen a VS 6a on UKC, I'll conceed.

In reply to CurlyStevo:
On Offwidth we handily classify Diff moves as being centred on UK tech 2c. An exceptionally bold diff move may be 1c and a unusually single safe starting boulder problem move might be 3c. We used this in various pages of the published BMC and YMC guides on crags commonly associated with beginners (eg Birchen and Woodhouse Scar) to non-elitistly extend the benefits mid grade leaders get in all guidebooks, through dual grades, to lower grade climbers.

I'm saying Pinnacle ridge has bouldery UK tech 2cish crux moves on what is an adjectivally easy rock climb.

A VS move isnt 4b/c it's anything from 4a to 5c depending on the context of the adjectival crux on the route.

When people say these lower grades dont exist they forget UK tech came from font via Southern Sandstone. The grade drift is a full number grade these days around UK 4a (~f3A) .... so my typical mid technicallity diff move is about f1C (VD ~f2B etc...)

In reply to Offwidth:
Yeah I've seen your tech grades assumptions, however many areas don't make use of HD and HVD is also used less commonly in some places. Are there any HD in Snowdonia? or Scotland? Or the SW? Certainly it is not common here. Indeed there are very few HVD in some areas. In any case it matters not as I was using the tech grade of a Diff being 3a as an example, as there is no norm in the UK and southern sandstone lower grades (under 4c) are closer to font than anything else so also can't really be applied.

Southern sandstone also doesn't use 1c, or 2c at all (and my old guide doesn't list them in the intro as grades with the others) and 3b is probably about UK 4a elsewhere!

I too would like an established norm for grading the lower end climbs for tech grades but to do that you'd have to get an established norm of the adj grades too, so I think it may fail. Personally I see no need for HD and HVD is questionable IMO. That said I note some areas do seem to be adopting HVD more commonly than they used to.

Also your assumption of the 1 numerical grade drift of font to UK tech only works in the lower grades anyway. Around UK 6a they tend to even out and go the other way. Also of course they are measuring different things.

In reply to CurlyStevo:
I dunno. The HVDs I've done have been reliably more awkward than the vdiffs, andI would see the grade as being useful. On grit at any rate.


Edit: agree entirely with your explanation of 'diff' moves on scrambles though. But I think top end scrambles can be considerably 'harder' than diff climbs- the character is different, but on scrambles suspect rock, route finding, and more judgement in the use of rope techniques is likely... to me, something like no 3 (?) Buttress on stob coire nam death is a much more challenging proposition than eg giant's crawl or middlefell buttress

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
They would just get severe in some areas if they are too hard to warrant VD.

In reply to CurlyStevo:
But they probably don't merit severe; and they seem to be quite different in character to mild severes (Another can of worms!).

Like I say, maybe it's a grit thing, but they seem to make sense when I've come across them, more in their 'feel' than the technicality

In reply to CurlyStevo:


Well, Flying Buttress and Spiral Stairs were always traditionally given Hard Diff. In fact, Roscoe's old guide was full of them. But, of course, in the old days the climbing gear was crap so one wouldn't expect the grades to be the same

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
Yeah I note in the SW some of the old harder VD get HVD now so perhaps its slowly becoming established as a full grade in areas that didn't commonly use it. I've seen one or two in Scotland I think.

Do we really need HD though?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
There probably are some in Snowdonia, but I can't mind seeing any in my recent guides. You guys were all bold solid climbers back then which is why we needed to upgrade all the climbs to make us feel better

In reply to CurlyStevo:

You've got it, Stevo

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Less convinced by that one. The only significant one I can think of is presidents slab at Rylstone, and it seems to be vdiff on here now.

But then. ... its not really vdiff, is it. ..? So maybe yes. ..

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Its not all bad because as our bodies decline in old age we can still improve our lead grade from the arm chair

In reply to CurlyStevo:

That one cannot do

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

I climbed President's Slab on a wet day last week with a MIA with a grit aversion. He pronounced it at least Severe and I have to say that in the damp green conditions prevailing on the bottom half it didn't feel like a Diff, Hard or otherwise. But it's not vDiff either. The character of the climb doesn't suit that grade at all.

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
I definitely think we can do away with the Mild qualifier, there is no need for MVS, MS etc IMO, some people even argue there is no grade between S and VS which I think is absurd but there you go.

About the only logical argument for HD being necessary is the grading of D and Severe are at least consistent then ie D HD VD HVD S HS VS HVS

In reply to CurlyStevo:

MVS is a very useful grade at Almscliff for steering climbers to the routes that are actually VS

In reply to BnB:
In Northumberland I swear MVS is the sandbag grade, VS seems often to be more normal climbing

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Haha. But, as the Northumberland thread proved, there are a lot of sandbags!!

In reply to CurlyStevo:
Diff is a wide grade so it does no harm and plenty of people have told us the two grade system was useful. Whats good for the goose...

One of the key reasons we did this was the typical adjectival tech grades we used do match the font grades (if the font problem is not polished to a sheen) with the f3A to f4A markers for grade drift. f1A (our central mod tech grade) feels like mod climbing moves to us. Ditto for f2B for central VD technicality. Another key, reason was it also works backwards nicely, to give lower grade folk an idea about our low grade recorded bouldering in the Peak.

Its consistent , it helps.some folk, highly superior VS climbers can giggle into their pints. Everyone wins.

In reply to CurlyStevo:



Yes; its hard to believe there is enough space between vdiff and severe for there to be 2 more grades.

The neat bit of me agrees that there should be consistency across the grade range and the uk on the use of the grades;but tthen again it's part of the quirkiness of the grading system that we have these oddities, and it keeps things interesting. ...

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

>But, of course, in the old days the climbing gear was crap so one wouldn't expect the grades to be the same

I am always in awe when I talk to my parents about the stuff they climbed back in the 70s. Stuff now graded E1 (primarily big mountain stuff in the Lakes was their stomping ground, with a healthy dose of Wales and Alpine) climbed with Willans harnesses, some moacs and a handful of hexes. Nails.

In reply to James Jackson:

When I climbed Cenotaph Corner in 1970 I think I was using a relatively new 'Davek' harness (i.e. it was only a few months since I'd given up using a hemp waistband) – very primitive compared with the slightly later Whillans. I had about 6 hexes, 2 moacs, about 6 or 7 early wire nuts (very stiff, they tended to pop out very easily), and probably a couple of knotted tape slings. I suspect I got on about 10 - 12 runners at the very most. But the biggest difference was that our boots (I then had my first pair of EBs) were very un-sticky compared with modern boots, and we had no chalk. Sweat on the holds was probably our biggest problem on those routes in the Pass in a hot summer.

In reply to Offwidth:

I'm not really sure a grade shift of 1 numerical grade is any more a stronger argument than a shift of 1 and 2 letters (or anything else). In any case font and UK grades measure different things and have long ago diverged. It doesn't seem like a strong argument for the HD grade anyways.

Also is Diff really a wide grade - it never felt that way to me and none of the grade table represent it as such. Vdiff feels wider to me and the tables show Diff about the same width as VDiff

http://www.rockfax.com/publications/grades/
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUK...

In reply to CurlyStevo:
They started off meaning the same thing since UK tech came from font and they still align (in our unusually extensive experience of both), if you allow for creep at f3A upwards. Good enough for us and useful for lower grade climbers especially those who do easy bouldering. They also support and educate for the UK trad system. The only reason we use twin grades in UK trad is for exactly the same utility as we have extended here.

HD is really not particularly an issue in this, I just think its convenient as I've seen seen so many differences on ackowledged diffs, from experienced scramblers and total bumblies to hundreds of beginners. All grades feel wider as we get closer to our limits the trick with good grading is to pay attention and take that into account by memorising loads of standard crux sections.. Diff feels tiny to me compared to E1 and I'm happy grading both.

In reply to Offwidth:
Yeah I already know the origins of the grading system thanks. However to me your argument doesn't really hold up.

How do you know they align? There isn't any guide books with tech grades under 4a ( I'll concede I have seen the odd 3c) other than southern sandstone and they are a hotch potch between uk tech and font. On the southern sandstone of which I have extensive experience - at 4c/5a and above it all equates to uk tech rather well and not font however under that it's very compressed as mentioned with 3b being about uk 4a elsewhere. So I can't see how that in anyway proves your point.

It seems to me you have decided in the lower uk tech grades align to font grades to justify the adj grades you propose and make a neat system of one adj grade to one tech grade. I see no need to make them align as the two systems have diverged considerably and mean different things anyway. Font is the whole boulder problem and uk tech the hardest move. In any case it doesn't really matter I just don't think your logic holds in this case.

At this point in time I think the designation of uk tech grades under 3c is arbitrary as southern sandstone is out of whack with the rest of the uk and as mentioned there is no reference elsewhere. It's also worth a mention that on southern sandstone the lower grading is quite eratic which isn't helped by the fact that generally the grades aren't really updated much in the guide books at this level and the easier climbs are often getting very eroded and therefore more sandy rounded and harder. They do also tend to be a different character to the other routes often but not always involving udging to be climbed at the given grade.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

The previous edition of 'Yorkshire gritstone' used tech grades below 4a to grade easier boulder problems- it seemed to work pretty well.

While custom and practice has been not to give these to routes below severe, doing so is useful and offwidth's application of this is consistent and logical.

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

I agree it would be good to see these grades applied to lower grade climbs, I just don't believe at this point that the lower tech grades have any established norm. It would be interesting to see how the Yorkshire grit bouldering guide applied these grades too (I had never heard of them used before and the BMC site says the scale starts about UK4a).

I think it would be great if the UK as a whole could decide on a consistent grading system with tech grades all the way down to the lowest grade climbs and do away with completely unnecessary grades that confuse the system (MVS and MS for example). Whichever adj grades are decided on I think under Severe you may as well have one tech grade per adj grade as the normal grade for the climb (like S4a HS4b VS4c) in the way Offwidth does with his system. Its just a shame the upper grades couldn't have kept this system too rather than widening the grade bands so much for both the adj and tech grades.

In reply to CurlyStevo:
The main consistency with our (very wide experience on) lower grades across the UK and across font was UK adjectival with normal font grades (ie no pof polished horror show slabs). We then accounted for grade drift and thought about the oddments in Yorkshire and Nunns old attempt at this and correlated with US trad stuff. Another big crag this was applied to was YMC Brimham.

On our website we mainly headlined U (for 'under') grades for bouldering that link seamlessly into the V grade system mainly used outdoors at the time. However, it's a linear translation to Font. We might drop U grades as a headline on our site soon since most new development in guides seems to be heading for font grading outside (and grades around V0 are getting heavily distorted indoors), and with the new YMC grit guides there are (at last!) sensible benchmarks at the lowest grades.

So for mid technicality of an adjectival grade:

HS~ 4b ~ f3B ~ U7 ~ YMC font3+
S ~ 4a ~ f3A ~ U6 ~ YMC font 3
HVD ~3c ~ f2C ~ U5 ~ YMC font2+
VD ~ 3b ~ f2B~ U4 ~ YMC font2
HD ~ 3a ~ f2A ~ U3 ~ YMC font1+
D ~ 2c ~ f1C~ U2 ~ YMC font1
M ~ 2b ~ f1B ~ U1


Im not claiming we have grade perfection here but Lynn and I have thought about this a lot and have done our best to be as consitent as possible. Its free for others to run with. It cuts a tad more pointless elitism from trad and from low grade bouldering in a fun for all spirit that embraces the ethos of UK trad from the lowest climbing grades. Perhaps never important in the face of the indoor boom and the obvious immediate greater convenience of climbing on bolts if they transition outdoors.

In reply to Offwidth:








Love your work

In reply to Offwidth:

That should have been ".... perhaps never less important..." of course

In reply to Offwidth:
Looking at all the grade table http://www.rockfax.com/publications/grades/

UK 4a ~ f3a
UK 5c ~ f5c

this is a jump of 6 tech grades for 9 font grades, this is 1.5 font grades per tech grade and the progression is quite linear ( not one to one as your system suggests). I think the system is more consistent without the use of the HD and HVD grades and continuing the trend of 1.5 font grades per tech grade.

E2 ~ 5c ~ f5b / f5c
E1 ~ 5b ~ f5a
HVS ~ 5a ~ f4b / f4c
VS ~ 4c ~ f4a
HS~ 4b ~ f3b / f3c
S ~ 4a ~ f3a
VD ~ 3b ~ f2b / f2c
D ~ 2c ~ f1c / f2a
M ~ 2b ~ f1b

I would say this has little relevancy to the southern sandstone grades either way though as 1a there is generally about the difficulty of an easy mod but 4c/5a border are the same as other grades around the UK.

In reply to CurlyStevo:
Speaking personally I've found the adjectival qualifier quite useful as it generally denotes the "flavour" of the climb and particularly at the Mild it can encourage one to have a go or warn that the "Hard" means that there might be a sting or puzzle to solve in the tail but that it is still hopefully within the grade. Let's face it, those of us who are adjectivalists are often bumblies (in the honourable, not derogatory, sense) and those to whom such indicators are addressed.

More able climbers who revel in tech grades don't have to use them!


I say able rather than competent because bumblies can be very competent mountaineers but within more limited grades

In reply to Offwidth:

So what font grade is Pinnacle Ridge?

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Sorry typo

E2 ~ 5c ~ f5b / f5c
E1 ~ 5b ~ f5a
HVS ~ 5a ~ f4b / f4c
VS ~ 4c ~ f4a
HS~ 4b ~ f3b / f3c
S ~ 4a ~ f3a
VD ~ 3c ~ f2b / f2c
D ~ 3b ~ f1c / f2a
M ~ 3a ~ f1b

In reply to CurlyStevo:
You might say that it jumps 9 grades, except in fontainebleau UK tech 5c starts low in the f4's. One other thing we have done is regraded pretty much every font circuit we have ticked in the last 5 years (mainly in the orange and below bands) to YMC font equivalents. Fonts grades, in the 4s and 5s are 'all over the shop' in our experience f4A's, we have done in Font vary in 'real' font grades from YMC font 4+ to well into YMC font 6A (thats ignoring the horror-show pof-polished padding slabs that Lynn can't do... she has cleanly top-roped a V6 padding highball at Ramshaw so is no slouch.) So continuing up with a wider error bar on the fontainebleau based font grades, as we have never been able to typify anything there in the 4 or low 5 range. Again aligned to mid adjectival range UK technicality:

E2~ 5c~ f5A? ~ hard V1~ YMC font 5+
E1 ~ 5c/b ~ f4C?~ V1/VO+ ~ YMC font 5
HVS ~5a/b ~ f4B? ~ V0 ~ YMC font 4+/5
VS ~ 4b/c ~ f3C~ low U8 or V0- ~ YMC font3+/4

Or maybe more usefully just to mid band UK technicallity:

UK mid 6a ~ f6A? ~ V2/V3 ~ hard YMC font6A+
UK mid 5c ~ f5A? ~ hard V1 ~ hard YMC font 5+
UK mid 5b ~ f4B/f4C? ~ V0+/V0 ~ YMC font5
UK mid 5a ~ f4A? ~ easy V0 ~ YMC font 4+

With, of course, apologies to Pinnacle Ridge as we never got an adjectival translation we felt happy with for scrambles.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Around U2 2c for problems we describe in the Peak, f1C for non polished stuff in font ( or an easier YMC font 1... as their grades drift from font font grades at the bottom)

In reply to CurlyStevo:
One further clarification: my fontainebleau font grades come from the French local guidebooks (White, Purple etc). David (Jingo guides) has clearly tried to sort out anomalies on the orange to red stuff we've done (or been spanked on) ... more power to his elbow. We agree more with him in the changes to local graded stuff from 4 up.

In reply to Offwidth:
your grading seems a little strange to me

UK mid 6a ~ f6A
UK mid 5c ~ f5A

where did the f5b and f5c grades go?

I agree easy UK 6a is f6a or V3 ish by the way

I use font grades in Northumberland and a little elsewhere - they seem fairly consistent and similar to the tables you find all over the internet. Which are as I out lined already in my example solution and posted a link to.

In reply to CurlyStevo:
Of course they are strange, that is the point! They are simply our typical perceptions of averages of the broad distributions of local font grades in font (eliminating the polished horror show outliers) for a middling UK tech 6a problem. Our preferred version of the font grades is given by the YMC values where the average is higher and correctly aligned with grade tables and the range as one might hope. Put more simply, many if not most font grades from f6A downwards in popular areas in font are in our opinion graded wrong by locals on the sandbag side. This is due to a refusal to shift grades as they get worn or polished.... go to a pristine area and local grading suddenly seems easy and more reliably consistent.

There is one exception in font.. jamming cracks.. the Diploducus blue 16 given f4B is YMC font 3ish as an example.