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Im in the market for a windproof/light insulation layer (non-down) that compresses and easily clips to your harness (ideally in its own pocket), the kind of thing that you'd easily throw on at the top of a Stanage route in October to stop you freezing whilst your seconder follows.
Im looking at the Mountain Equipment transition jacket but can't find any independent reviews/anyone have any thoughts on it?
If you've got any other suggestions for a jacket that fits this bill please fire away.
Cheers,
Luke
Im looking at the Mountain Equipment transition jacket but can't find any independent reviews/anyone have any thoughts on it?
If you've got any other suggestions for a jacket that fits this bill please fire away.
Cheers,
Luke
In reply to Birks:
The ME jacket is very new so not surprised there aren't that any reviews of it. It looks to me like a copy (or their version!) of the Arcteryx Atom LT hoody, and I expect it to be good.
How warm do you need it to be? You seen the Montane Fireball jacket?
The ME jacket is very new so not surprised there aren't that any reviews of it. It looks to me like a copy (or their version!) of the Arcteryx Atom LT hoody, and I expect it to be good.
How warm do you need it to be? You seen the Montane Fireball jacket?
Post edited at 12:47
In reply to Birks:
I think the key is to get something you aren't afraid of hurting, as you'll take it more often than a Mountain Equipment jacket.
Montane prism is cheap and works well for this.
Quechua Cheap jackets would work well too.
I think the key is to get something you aren't afraid of hurting, as you'll take it more often than a Mountain Equipment jacket.
Montane prism is cheap and works well for this.
Quechua Cheap jackets would work well too.
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In reply to Birks:
Climb in the Patagonia Nano Air over a tee shirt and you'll stay cool climbing yet warm on the belay. It really is that good. I wore mine out of the reach of the sun in a northerly breeze for six hours at NW-facing Rylstone yesterday. If the wind really bites you can throw a very thin windshirt over the top, which you can just keep in the pocket (or clip)
Climb in the Patagonia Nano Air over a tee shirt and you'll stay cool climbing yet warm on the belay. It really is that good. I wore mine out of the reach of the sun in a northerly breeze for six hours at NW-facing Rylstone yesterday. If the wind really bites you can throw a very thin windshirt over the top, which you can just keep in the pocket (or clip)
In reply to Birks:
Why not down? I bought a berghaus Ilam hydrodown jacket. It compresses pretty small and clips easily to my harness. Very warm for the weight. Best bit of kit I have bought in ages ...
Why not down? I bought a berghaus Ilam hydrodown jacket. It compresses pretty small and clips easily to my harness. Very warm for the weight. Best bit of kit I have bought in ages ...
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In reply to Birks:
rab generator, hagalofs lim theres a few (though i go for pullovers). a gilet might work well as well
a windproof is the most effective though w/w - get a cheapy one for 15quid ish
rab generator, hagalofs lim theres a few (though i go for pullovers). a gilet might work well as well
a windproof is the most effective though w/w - get a cheapy one for 15quid ish
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In reply to Birks:
If you want just windproof you can do a lot worse than the cag in a bag sort of thing, for not much money.
If you want just windproof you can do a lot worse than the cag in a bag sort of thing, for not much money.
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In reply to Birks:
I have a nano puff which works well for this kind of thing. It's a bit fiddly to stuff into its pocket though - I've never understood why they can't make these things a bit bigger.
Btw, I wouldn't necessarily rule out down due to allergies. I'm allergic too, can't sleep on down pillows or with a down duvet without wanting to scratch my eyes out, but I can wear a down jacket without a problem.
I have a nano puff which works well for this kind of thing. It's a bit fiddly to stuff into its pocket though - I've never understood why they can't make these things a bit bigger.
Btw, I wouldn't necessarily rule out down due to allergies. I'm allergic too, can't sleep on down pillows or with a down duvet without wanting to scratch my eyes out, but I can wear a down jacket without a problem.
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In reply to lithos:
Agreed. If you're wearing a light fleece, or even a long-sleeved base layer, a simple windproof shell will stop the warm air being whipped out of the layers underneath, thus greatly increasing their effective insulation.
Anything insulated is likely to pack much larger, and be a fairly significant lump hanging from your harness.
A lightweight windproof will pack to the size of a small apple.
> a windproof is the most effective though w/w - get a cheapy one for 15quid ish
Agreed. If you're wearing a light fleece, or even a long-sleeved base layer, a simple windproof shell will stop the warm air being whipped out of the layers underneath, thus greatly increasing their effective insulation.
Anything insulated is likely to pack much larger, and be a fairly significant lump hanging from your harness.
A lightweight windproof will pack to the size of a small apple.
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In reply to Birks:
I've got an Alpkit Heiko on review at the6 moment and used exactly for what you describe last weekend. I can climb in it fine too, but it packs into its own chest pocket easily and has a loop to clip onto a harness. 85 quid for a primaloft is a good price I think.
> Im in the market for a windproof/light insulation layer (non-down) that compresses and easily clips to your harness (ideally in its own pocket), the kind of thing that you'd easily throw on at the top of a Stanage route in October to stop you freezing whilst your seconder follows.
I've got an Alpkit Heiko on review at the6 moment and used exactly for what you describe last weekend. I can climb in it fine too, but it packs into its own chest pocket easily and has a loop to clip onto a harness. 85 quid for a primaloft is a good price I think.
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In reply to Birks:
Montane Featherlite smock. Tiny and lightweight, so you don't mind taking it with you, but damn useful when it's breezy.
Montane Featherlite smock. Tiny and lightweight, so you don't mind taking it with you, but damn useful when it's breezy.
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In reply to marsbar:
My theory is that modern down jackets are sealed much better than pillows/duvets and release less aggravating crap from them. I've wondered whether I could get away with a down sleeping bag but I reacted badly to the fairly elderly one I borrowed once and it would be a very expensive experiment if it turned out I couldn't tolerate it.
My theory is that modern down jackets are sealed much better than pillows/duvets and release less aggravating crap from them. I've wondered whether I could get away with a down sleeping bag but I reacted badly to the fairly elderly one I borrowed once and it would be a very expensive experiment if it turned out I couldn't tolerate it.
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In reply to Birks:
I finally have my system sorted. Its Patagonia R1 Hoodie (lots of companies do variations). Its the hood and the thumb loops that I love. With this either a Patagonia Alpine wind jacket or I bring a Patagonia Nano Puff for insulation. Plus I climb in a pair of soft shell trousers and when its super cold under these I have a pair of Rab Fleece Bib. Down jacket is always with me at the crag.
I finally have my system sorted. Its Patagonia R1 Hoodie (lots of companies do variations). Its the hood and the thumb loops that I love. With this either a Patagonia Alpine wind jacket or I bring a Patagonia Nano Puff for insulation. Plus I climb in a pair of soft shell trousers and when its super cold under these I have a pair of Rab Fleece Bib. Down jacket is always with me at the crag.
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In reply to Birks:
For a Spring/Fall belay jacket, the Rab Xenon is excellent. I wish it had a hood with a drawcord, but other than that it is great.
For a Spring/Fall belay jacket, the Rab Xenon is excellent. I wish it had a hood with a drawcord, but other than that it is great.
In reply to ianstevens:
Right maybe but not necessarily best. According to the OutdoorGearLab review http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Insulated-Jacket-Reviews/Patagonia-Nano-Puff-... , the Rab Xenon is warmer, more windproof, and more water-resistant (and a better value).
Note that for a belay jacket that you mostly thow on when not moving, you don't want one of the new super-breathable pieces, which trade wind resistance for that vaunted breathability.
Right maybe but not necessarily best. According to the OutdoorGearLab review http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Insulated-Jacket-Reviews/Patagonia-Nano-Puff-... , the Rab Xenon is warmer, more windproof, and more water-resistant (and a better value).
Note that for a belay jacket that you mostly thow on when not moving, you don't want one of the new super-breathable pieces, which trade wind resistance for that vaunted breathability.
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In reply to JohnV:
I don't think windshirts, waterproof or not, are what the OP is asking for, at least that's not how I interpret "windproof/light insulation" and subsequent terms like "non-down." Giving the ME Transition jacket as an example further clarifies that the OP is asking about an insulated piece, not just a wind barrier.
I don't think windshirts, waterproof or not, are what the OP is asking for, at least that's not how I interpret "windproof/light insulation" and subsequent terms like "non-down." Giving the ME Transition jacket as an example further clarifies that the OP is asking about an insulated piece, not just a wind barrier.
Post edited at 16:51
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In reply to rgold:
In the opinion of that reviewer - however these are obviously subjective. The Patagonia jacket may cost more initially, but I'm happy to pay for their excellent aftercare, durability of kit and environmental ethics.
> Right maybe but not necessarily best. According to the OutdoorGearLab review http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Insulated-Jacket-Reviews/Patagonia-Nano-Puff-... , the Rab Xenon is warmer, more windproof, and more water-resistant (and a better value).
In the opinion of that reviewer - however these are obviously subjective. The Patagonia jacket may cost more initially, but I'm happy to pay for their excellent aftercare, durability of kit and environmental ethics.
> Note that for a belay jacket that you mostly thow on when not moving, you don't want one of the new super-breathable pieces, which trade wind resistance for that vaunted breathability.
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In reply to ianstevens:
Of course, all reviews are to some extent subjective, but the OutdoorGearLab review involved several testers and fourteen jackets. One feature worth attending to is that the reviewers have used both jackets and you don't mention any experience with the Rab, which raises a question about whose opinions are likely to be more subjective.
I linked the Nano Puff review which refers to the Rab Xenon as better. It is of course worth having a look at the actual Xenon review; see http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Insulated-Jacket-Reviews/Rab-Xenon-X-Hoodie , as well as the extensive and informative text in the main body of the review at http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Insulated-Jacket-Reviews#bicreview . More information about the Xenon shows up in these other places, for example,
"The Xenon X is the most weather resistant of the 60 g/m2 insulated products tested. Its nylon ripstop fabric has a Pertex Quantum coating that works great in light rain and snow, and it is practically windproof. While this model is not seam-taped, the shell design minimizes the number of seams. The Xenon X is the only one of the light models we'd purposefully wear without a shell during a short, light rain."
Two of the ratings that are most worth attending to are
Weather Resistance: Rab, 9/10. Patagonia, 5/10.
Breathability: Rab, 5/10. Patagonia, 10/10.
I think the critical decision is whether you want something you regularly climb in, in which case breathability is important, or something you use primarily as a belay jacket when not moving, in which case weather resistance is the primary consideration.
Of course, all reviews are to some extent subjective, but the OutdoorGearLab review involved several testers and fourteen jackets. One feature worth attending to is that the reviewers have used both jackets and you don't mention any experience with the Rab, which raises a question about whose opinions are likely to be more subjective.
I linked the Nano Puff review which refers to the Rab Xenon as better. It is of course worth having a look at the actual Xenon review; see http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Insulated-Jacket-Reviews/Rab-Xenon-X-Hoodie , as well as the extensive and informative text in the main body of the review at http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Insulated-Jacket-Reviews#bicreview . More information about the Xenon shows up in these other places, for example,
"The Xenon X is the most weather resistant of the 60 g/m2 insulated products tested. Its nylon ripstop fabric has a Pertex Quantum coating that works great in light rain and snow, and it is practically windproof. While this model is not seam-taped, the shell design minimizes the number of seams. The Xenon X is the only one of the light models we'd purposefully wear without a shell during a short, light rain."
Two of the ratings that are most worth attending to are
Weather Resistance: Rab, 9/10. Patagonia, 5/10.
Breathability: Rab, 5/10. Patagonia, 10/10.
I think the critical decision is whether you want something you regularly climb in, in which case breathability is important, or something you use primarily as a belay jacket when not moving, in which case weather resistance is the primary consideration.
Post edited at 02:52
In reply to rgold:
Thing is, if you're sweating alot and you put on a non breathable jacket; you don't want to take it off again as you're soaked through underneath and will freeze. If you're not such a sweaty person that might not matter as much.
Thing is, if you're sweating alot and you put on a non breathable jacket; you don't want to take it off again as you're soaked through underneath and will freeze. If you're not such a sweaty person that might not matter as much.
In reply to dr_botnik:
No jacket is going to be perfect for all people and all conditions. My point is that there are actual features that distinguish the choices, and paying attention to those features , in the light of the way one expects to use the jacket most of the time, makes more sense then attending to appreciation statements that supply no reasons for the choice.
That said, how you deploy the gear matters too. For example, I find that when I stop moving after getting very sweaty, I stay warm for quite a while and (clad as most of us are nowadays in synthetics) dry off pretty fast as well. So I simply don't put on my belay jacket instantly and that has always solved the problem you mention. But I should add that I use a light jacket as a belay jacket for temperatures above freezing, and that once the temps dip lower, I need something more substantial.
I've gotten the beginnings of hypothermia belaying in highly breathable insulation in very windy conditions with the temps only just below 50 degrees F. (Such conditions happen with some regularity in the American desert in the Spring and Fall.) That only had to happen once in order to get me to look for light portable insulation that would block as much wind as possible, breathability be damned. This means, among other things, that I don't want one of those jackets that has stretch material and no insulation along the sides and underarms---the wind just howls through those areas. It also means that a hood with some sort of proper drawstring is very desirable; the absence of any way to seal up the hood is the worst feature of the Xenon.
So again, the point isn't which type of jacket is "better," if there are no reasons accompanying the choice. And yes, whatever choice is made is going to be suboptimal in some conditions, so one has to do one's best to think about the most likely and most important use and then live with the downsides.
For example, some people might go for a more breathable jacket and add a windshell on top of that when conditions require it. Personally, I want to be able to throw a belay jacket on and off and don't want to be faffing around with multiple garments, but the two-garment solution is in many ways ideal.
No jacket is going to be perfect for all people and all conditions. My point is that there are actual features that distinguish the choices, and paying attention to those features , in the light of the way one expects to use the jacket most of the time, makes more sense then attending to appreciation statements that supply no reasons for the choice.
That said, how you deploy the gear matters too. For example, I find that when I stop moving after getting very sweaty, I stay warm for quite a while and (clad as most of us are nowadays in synthetics) dry off pretty fast as well. So I simply don't put on my belay jacket instantly and that has always solved the problem you mention. But I should add that I use a light jacket as a belay jacket for temperatures above freezing, and that once the temps dip lower, I need something more substantial.
I've gotten the beginnings of hypothermia belaying in highly breathable insulation in very windy conditions with the temps only just below 50 degrees F. (Such conditions happen with some regularity in the American desert in the Spring and Fall.) That only had to happen once in order to get me to look for light portable insulation that would block as much wind as possible, breathability be damned. This means, among other things, that I don't want one of those jackets that has stretch material and no insulation along the sides and underarms---the wind just howls through those areas. It also means that a hood with some sort of proper drawstring is very desirable; the absence of any way to seal up the hood is the worst feature of the Xenon.
So again, the point isn't which type of jacket is "better," if there are no reasons accompanying the choice. And yes, whatever choice is made is going to be suboptimal in some conditions, so one has to do one's best to think about the most likely and most important use and then live with the downsides.
For example, some people might go for a more breathable jacket and add a windshell on top of that when conditions require it. Personally, I want to be able to throw a belay jacket on and off and don't want to be faffing around with multiple garments, but the two-garment solution is in many ways ideal.
Post edited at 15:43
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In reply to rgold:
You're correct, I haven't used the Rab equivalent to any extent, but have borrowed them from friends occasionally. Either way, my opinion is no more subjective than anyone elses! There is no answer as to "the best" otherwise simply everyone would buy that, and eventually all other companies would go out of business. From what I thought trying a few jackets on (admittedly around 6 years ago...), the nano-puff was most suited to carting up a route and throwing on on a chilly belay.
I struggle to see the relevance of weather resistance given that the OP was asking about autumn and spring rock climbing - 99.9% of people don't go climbing in the rain. Being warm enough, pack size and weight are the most relevant for a spring/autumn belay jacket for me. Scottish winter is, of course, another game.
You're correct, I haven't used the Rab equivalent to any extent, but have borrowed them from friends occasionally. Either way, my opinion is no more subjective than anyone elses! There is no answer as to "the best" otherwise simply everyone would buy that, and eventually all other companies would go out of business. From what I thought trying a few jackets on (admittedly around 6 years ago...), the nano-puff was most suited to carting up a route and throwing on on a chilly belay.
I struggle to see the relevance of weather resistance given that the OP was asking about autumn and spring rock climbing - 99.9% of people don't go climbing in the rain. Being warm enough, pack size and weight are the most relevant for a spring/autumn belay jacket for me. Scottish winter is, of course, another game.
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In reply to rgold:
The two layer solution works well in the cool/mild UK Spring/Autumn/Winter where a breathable insulation layer can stay on all day (unless sunny). Inevitably at a goldilocks temperature belaying the leader below the blowy top of Stanage, I stay cool enough on the lead myself owing to the breathability. Usually the residual warmth of the climb retained by the insulation lasts me for most of the 10-20 minutes on a windy belay. To stop the wind cutting through, a windproof can be secreted in a pocket or hung off the harness with a considerable reduction in the (relatively) clumsy bulk of a Xenon/Puff. The fact that you often don't need the auxiliary layer makes this a great low faff solution for multipitch climbs.
The two layer solution works well in the cool/mild UK Spring/Autumn/Winter where a breathable insulation layer can stay on all day (unless sunny). Inevitably at a goldilocks temperature belaying the leader below the blowy top of Stanage, I stay cool enough on the lead myself owing to the breathability. Usually the residual warmth of the climb retained by the insulation lasts me for most of the 10-20 minutes on a windy belay. To stop the wind cutting through, a windproof can be secreted in a pocket or hung off the harness with a considerable reduction in the (relatively) clumsy bulk of a Xenon/Puff. The fact that you often don't need the auxiliary layer makes this a great low faff solution for multipitch climbs.
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In reply to rgold:
I think you've got confused between the nano air and nano puff reviews.
The nano puff numbers are 7 for weather resistance and 5 for breathability. The nano puff looks a lot better down the pub though.
I think you've got confused between the nano air and nano puff reviews.
The nano puff numbers are 7 for weather resistance and 5 for breathability. The nano puff looks a lot better down the pub though.
In reply to rgold:
What are people's opinion of/experience with the OR Cathode Hoody? What about jackets like the ME Kinesis, Rab Alpha Direct, or OR Ferrosi Hoody? Where do they sit on the spectrum of warmth vs breathability?
The reason I ask is that I've got a similar "problem" to the OP in that I'm looking to update/alter my layering system by reducing the number of items I use/carry (and thereby reducing weight). My current items include: Icebreaker Quantum Hoody, Rab Boreas windshell, Rab Generator Stretch Pullover, Arc'teryx Beta AR Goretex Paclite shell.
The Icebreaker hoody has been my go-to piece that I wear everyday for everything. It has seen a lot of rock climbing action and is starting to look a bit tatty with various holes in the arms (that I'll hopefully get repaired). The combination of Icebreaker hoody + Boreas is generally warm enough throughout most of the year, at least for the conditions I typically (try to) climb in. When the weather gets particularly cold (i.e. middle of UK winter in Peak), the Rab Generator adds extra warmth. The Beta AR goretex basically stays in my pack until it rains.
I should note that I don't do any winter climbing or mountaineering. I primarily stick to rock routes, ala the Verdon Gorge at Easter, Ecrin in July, Dolomites in September, Peak in Autumn and Winter, North Wales and Pembroke in Summer etc. etc.
The biggest downside to my current layers is that neither the Icebreaker, nor Rab Generator, nor Arc'teryx shell can be attached to my harness (without using some other stuff sack). The Generator doesn't have a hood, which is why I've preferentially used the Icebreaker as my primary cool weather climbing layer and the Boreas wets out instantly (as you'd expect). Also, I'm pretty sure that the Beta AR shell is overkill for how I use it.
Similar to the OP, I've been wondering if I could replace my Icebreaker and Generator with something equivalent and replace the Boreas and Beta AR with a lightweight shell thus cutting the number of items from 4 to 2. I'm particularly trying to streamlise my kit for when I'm multipitching so that I don't have to take a rucksack but can still carry enough layers.
The difficulty, like all things gear related, is knowing what to choose. Any thoughts/advice will be appreciated and to the OP, I apologise for hijacking your thread.
What are people's opinion of/experience with the OR Cathode Hoody? What about jackets like the ME Kinesis, Rab Alpha Direct, or OR Ferrosi Hoody? Where do they sit on the spectrum of warmth vs breathability?
The reason I ask is that I've got a similar "problem" to the OP in that I'm looking to update/alter my layering system by reducing the number of items I use/carry (and thereby reducing weight). My current items include: Icebreaker Quantum Hoody, Rab Boreas windshell, Rab Generator Stretch Pullover, Arc'teryx Beta AR Goretex Paclite shell.
The Icebreaker hoody has been my go-to piece that I wear everyday for everything. It has seen a lot of rock climbing action and is starting to look a bit tatty with various holes in the arms (that I'll hopefully get repaired). The combination of Icebreaker hoody + Boreas is generally warm enough throughout most of the year, at least for the conditions I typically (try to) climb in. When the weather gets particularly cold (i.e. middle of UK winter in Peak), the Rab Generator adds extra warmth. The Beta AR goretex basically stays in my pack until it rains.
I should note that I don't do any winter climbing or mountaineering. I primarily stick to rock routes, ala the Verdon Gorge at Easter, Ecrin in July, Dolomites in September, Peak in Autumn and Winter, North Wales and Pembroke in Summer etc. etc.
The biggest downside to my current layers is that neither the Icebreaker, nor Rab Generator, nor Arc'teryx shell can be attached to my harness (without using some other stuff sack). The Generator doesn't have a hood, which is why I've preferentially used the Icebreaker as my primary cool weather climbing layer and the Boreas wets out instantly (as you'd expect). Also, I'm pretty sure that the Beta AR shell is overkill for how I use it.
Similar to the OP, I've been wondering if I could replace my Icebreaker and Generator with something equivalent and replace the Boreas and Beta AR with a lightweight shell thus cutting the number of items from 4 to 2. I'm particularly trying to streamlise my kit for when I'm multipitching so that I don't have to take a rucksack but can still carry enough layers.
The difficulty, like all things gear related, is knowing what to choose. Any thoughts/advice will be appreciated and to the OP, I apologise for hijacking your thread.
In reply to galpinos:
You're right, and the nano puff comes in a lot worse than the nano air, in eighth place out of 14.
In reply to ianstevens
In the review, "weather resistance" incorporated windproofness and ability to handle "unexpected light rain" (and I've heard rumors that it sometimes rains unexpectedly in the UK). I already explained more than once why windproofness might be important; there's nothing to be gained by repeating that. You mention that "being warm enough" matters, but in view of the level of breathability available, there is a considerable difference between "being warm enough" in calm conditions and "being warm enough" in very windy conditions. In any case, if warmth per se is what you're after, the OGL ratings are 7/10 for the Xenon and 6/10 for the Nano Puff.
> I think you've got confused between the nano air and nano puff reviews.
You're right, and the nano puff comes in a lot worse than the nano air, in eighth place out of 14.
In reply to ianstevens
> I struggle to see the relevance of weather resistance given that the OP was asking about autumn and spring rock climbing - 99.9% of people don't go climbing in the rain. Being warm enough, pack size and weight are the most relevant for a spring/autumn belay jacket for me.
In the review, "weather resistance" incorporated windproofness and ability to handle "unexpected light rain" (and I've heard rumors that it sometimes rains unexpectedly in the UK). I already explained more than once why windproofness might be important; there's nothing to be gained by repeating that. You mention that "being warm enough" matters, but in view of the level of breathability available, there is a considerable difference between "being warm enough" in calm conditions and "being warm enough" in very windy conditions. In any case, if warmth per se is what you're after, the OGL ratings are 7/10 for the Xenon and 6/10 for the Nano Puff.
In reply to ianstevens:
Fortunately it never rains unexpectedly in Britain as we have excellent and predictable weather :P and you certainly don't get occasional light bits of drizzle float in which don't really need a waterproof...
I have the Rab Xenon X and think it is great
> I struggle to see the relevance of weather resistance given that the OP was asking about autumn and spring rock climbing - 99.9% of people don't go climbing in the rain.
Fortunately it never rains unexpectedly in Britain as we have excellent and predictable weather :P and you certainly don't get occasional light bits of drizzle float in which don't really need a waterproof...
I have the Rab Xenon X and think it is great
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In reply to rgold:
We get it. You like the rab jacket, I like the Patagonia one. Please stop presenting what we've agreed is a subjective review in what seems like a very condescending fashion. I was simply sharing my thoughts on the jacket in line with what 4 other posters had already said. Regardless of a few points in an online review, I've not been cold or wet in the Nano Puff in the UK in spring and autumn - so in my experience it works. That's all I'm saying - not necessarily that its the "best" jacket for the job.
With modern forecasting, it rarely rains unexpectedly in the UK - and if it does, I'll put on a waterproof (which I'll take if it looks likely to rain) or deal with it for 20-60 minutes whilst packing up and walking to the car.
> You're right, and the nano puff comes in a lot worse than the nano air, in eighth place out of 14.
> In reply to ianstevens
> In the review, "weather resistance" incorporated windproofness and ability to handle "unexpected light rain" (and I've heard rumors that it sometimes rains unexpectedly in the UK). I already explained more than once why windproofness might be important; there's nothing to be gained by repeating that. You mention that "being warm enough" matters, but in view of the level of breathability available, there is a considerable difference between "being warm enough" in calm conditions and "being warm enough" in very windy conditions. In any case, if warmth per se is what you're after, the OGL ratings are 7/10 for the Xenon and 6/10 for the Nano Puff.
We get it. You like the rab jacket, I like the Patagonia one. Please stop presenting what we've agreed is a subjective review in what seems like a very condescending fashion. I was simply sharing my thoughts on the jacket in line with what 4 other posters had already said. Regardless of a few points in an online review, I've not been cold or wet in the Nano Puff in the UK in spring and autumn - so in my experience it works. That's all I'm saying - not necessarily that its the "best" jacket for the job.
With modern forecasting, it rarely rains unexpectedly in the UK - and if it does, I'll put on a waterproof (which I'll take if it looks likely to rain) or deal with it for 20-60 minutes whilst packing up and walking to the car.
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In reply to ianstevens:
This is very true in Snowdonia, at least. Rain is never a surprise, regardless of the forecast
> With modern forecasting, it rarely rains unexpectedly in the UK
This is very true in Snowdonia, at least. Rain is never a surprise, regardless of the forecast
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In reply to LukeDclimber:
For rock climbing, you could ditch the quantum, boreas and perhaps even generator. If you get a thin longsleeved merino t-shirt and on top get a mountainrunning insulation piece, something akin to say Inov-8 Thermoshell (that comes with a tiny pack sack).
The only problem is the lack of a hood (which the pull over doesn't have). But for me it has worked as a charm, if really hot roll up the sleeves on the t-shirt. If windy, wear the light insulation piece so that the wind blocking surface is out.. if just cold, well wear the insulation the other way around.
If really cold, add the packlite shell. If still too cold, well best head somewhere warmer (for multibitch climbing).
And about the same also happens to be my winter climbing apparel, albeit in Scandiland I generally replace the waterproof shell with a weather resistant softshell.
The same kind of pull over should also fit the OP.
For rock climbing, you could ditch the quantum, boreas and perhaps even generator. If you get a thin longsleeved merino t-shirt and on top get a mountainrunning insulation piece, something akin to say Inov-8 Thermoshell (that comes with a tiny pack sack).
The only problem is the lack of a hood (which the pull over doesn't have). But for me it has worked as a charm, if really hot roll up the sleeves on the t-shirt. If windy, wear the light insulation piece so that the wind blocking surface is out.. if just cold, well wear the insulation the other way around.
If really cold, add the packlite shell. If still too cold, well best head somewhere warmer (for multibitch climbing).
And about the same also happens to be my winter climbing apparel, albeit in Scandiland I generally replace the waterproof shell with a weather resistant softshell.
The same kind of pull over should also fit the OP.
In reply to LukeDclimber:
I used to own a Ferrosi hoody and from a breathability point of view it was like I wasn't wearing it. Sadly from a windproofing point of view it was spoke I wasn't wearing it either. I ended up reverting back to pertex type tops.
I use a generator smock as a summer belay jacket and it has a biner clip on the chest pocket it packs into. I'm surprised yours doesn't.
The recommendation above for the Berghaus hypertherm hoody is great (I picked one up this summer and have lived in it) but it is very light (read: fragile) and has a separate stuff sack to lob it in. I love mine but I'm keeping it well away from grit!
I used to own a Ferrosi hoody and from a breathability point of view it was like I wasn't wearing it. Sadly from a windproofing point of view it was spoke I wasn't wearing it either. I ended up reverting back to pertex type tops.
I use a generator smock as a summer belay jacket and it has a biner clip on the chest pocket it packs into. I'm surprised yours doesn't.
The recommendation above for the Berghaus hypertherm hoody is great (I picked one up this summer and have lived in it) but it is very light (read: fragile) and has a separate stuff sack to lob it in. I love mine but I'm keeping it well away from grit!
In reply to Birks:
I've been using a Mountain Hardware Thermostatic recently, and I'm quite impressed.
Very light, wind and shower proof, good warmth, nice fit and packs down into its own pocket with a crab loop.
I've been using a Mountain Hardware Thermostatic recently, and I'm quite impressed.
Very light, wind and shower proof, good warmth, nice fit and packs down into its own pocket with a crab loop.
In reply to angry pirate:
Note that the Berghaus piece is made with 40 gm/m^2 insulation, while the Nano Puff and Zenon use 60 gm/m^2 insulation. All three insulations are proprietary, and weights don't necessarily correlate directly with loft, so it is hard to know how significant the weight difference is, but it at least suggests that the Nano Puff and Xenon will be warmer.
Note that the Berghaus piece is made with 40 gm/m^2 insulation, while the Nano Puff and Zenon use 60 gm/m^2 insulation. All three insulations are proprietary, and weights don't necessarily correlate directly with loft, so it is hard to know how significant the weight difference is, but it at least suggests that the Nano Puff and Xenon will be warmer.
In reply to rgold
Xenon is Primaloft Gold (formerly One), non-proprietary and acknowledged as the gold standard in synthetic insulation. The OutdoorGearLab test can't keep quiet about how warm it is.
> Note that the Berghaus piece is made with 40 gm/m^2 insulation, while the Nano Puff and Zenon use 60 gm/m^2 insulation. All three insulations are proprietary, and weights don't necessarily correlate directly with loft, so it is hard to know how significant the weight difference is, but it at least suggests that the Nano Puff and Xenon will be warmer.
Xenon is Primaloft Gold (formerly One), non-proprietary and acknowledged as the gold standard in synthetic insulation. The OutdoorGearLab test can't keep quiet about how warm it is.
In reply to rgold:
Absolutely! My Rab Generator is 60gsm primaloft gold and is warmer than the Berghaus hypertherm but not by as much as I'd have thought. The Berghaus jacket is quite frankly witchcraft as it's so warm, breathable and only 260ish grams.
I tend to layer them for walking use tbh: hypertherm as an action layer and generator as a static layer/belay jacket in mild conditions but that's mainly as the hypertherm has a really breathable liner and is reversible whereas the rab is tough as old boots and quite old now so I don't mind chucking it at rock!
Absolutely! My Rab Generator is 60gsm primaloft gold and is warmer than the Berghaus hypertherm but not by as much as I'd have thought. The Berghaus jacket is quite frankly witchcraft as it's so warm, breathable and only 260ish grams.
I tend to layer them for walking use tbh: hypertherm as an action layer and generator as a static layer/belay jacket in mild conditions but that's mainly as the hypertherm has a really breathable liner and is reversible whereas the rab is tough as old boots and quite old now so I don't mind chucking it at rock!
In reply to Birks:
I use a full weight North Face Down Jacket, crammed into the smallest size stuff sac that it'll fit into.
Doesn't have any real weight, and is a godsend due to its windproof capabilities as well as the warmth.
I know you asked about light and small, but its the gap between the outer and inner layers that provides the windproof level (as well as the warmth).
Obviously if you're in a constricted space then it can be awkward, but for face climbs I've never had a problem. You can also just leave it at the bottom and drop a loop of rope for your second to clip it on to - only takes a few seconds to pull it up, and at Stanage and so forth you're not going to run out of rope.
I use a full weight North Face Down Jacket, crammed into the smallest size stuff sac that it'll fit into.
Doesn't have any real weight, and is a godsend due to its windproof capabilities as well as the warmth.
I know you asked about light and small, but its the gap between the outer and inner layers that provides the windproof level (as well as the warmth).
Obviously if you're in a constricted space then it can be awkward, but for face climbs I've never had a problem. You can also just leave it at the bottom and drop a loop of rope for your second to clip it on to - only takes a few seconds to pull it up, and at Stanage and so forth you're not going to run out of rope.
In reply to BnB:
Yes, right. What I meant to write is that the insulation used in the three pieces is different. The gm/m^2 numbers, being weight for a square meter of insulation, presumably correlate with the thickness of the insulating material, so that higher numbers should be warmer by virtue of being thicker. But the materials themselves have different insulating properties, so the gm/m^2 comparisons are a rough guide only.
Jacket construction has an effect as well. The shell material matters, and lots of sewn-through seams reduce the average thickness and so reduce warmth and windproofness while increasing breathability.
I think that a lot of the more breathable pieces are really intended as cold-weather midlayers, items that will be worn while very active in cold temperatures, where breathability is paramount because the subject is moving and sweat is chilling. It is understood in these cold-weather conditions that when activity stops, a shell or outer insulation layer will be added. If these assumptions are not in effect, e.g. non-winter rock climbing in which the piece is mostly not worn while climbing but is thrown on for belays, then I still think at the wind protection provided by less breathable pieces is their most important feature.
Yes, right. What I meant to write is that the insulation used in the three pieces is different. The gm/m^2 numbers, being weight for a square meter of insulation, presumably correlate with the thickness of the insulating material, so that higher numbers should be warmer by virtue of being thicker. But the materials themselves have different insulating properties, so the gm/m^2 comparisons are a rough guide only.
Jacket construction has an effect as well. The shell material matters, and lots of sewn-through seams reduce the average thickness and so reduce warmth and windproofness while increasing breathability.
I think that a lot of the more breathable pieces are really intended as cold-weather midlayers, items that will be worn while very active in cold temperatures, where breathability is paramount because the subject is moving and sweat is chilling. It is understood in these cold-weather conditions that when activity stops, a shell or outer insulation layer will be added. If these assumptions are not in effect, e.g. non-winter rock climbing in which the piece is mostly not worn while climbing but is thrown on for belays, then I still think at the wind protection provided by less breathable pieces is their most important feature.
In reply to rgold:
Agreed. Although the alternative strategy of wearing the breathable insulation (Nano Air esp) as a mid/outer over just a tee all day long works a treat, occasionally throwing a windproof over the top (but often not).
> I think that a lot of the more breathable pieces are really intended as cold-weather midlayers, items that will be worn while very active in cold temperatures, where breathability is paramount because the subject is moving and sweat is chilling. It is understood in these cold-weather conditions that when activity stops, a shell or outer insulation layer will be added. If these assumptions are not in effect, e.g. non-winter rock climbing in which the piece is mostly not worn while climbing but is thrown on for belays, then I still think at the wind protection provided by less breathable pieces is their most important feature.
Agreed. Although the alternative strategy of wearing the breathable insulation (Nano Air esp) as a mid/outer over just a tee all day long works a treat, occasionally throwing a windproof over the top (but often not).
In reply to Birks:
For a windproof, it has to be the montane featherlite. It's the size of an apple, and is pertex like the buffalo, put a fleece underneath and it works like a buffalo. I find that it feels like a jumper when you pull it on as it cuts out the wind. I have three now, probably about£40 each?
For a windproof, it has to be the montane featherlite. It's the size of an apple, and is pertex like the buffalo, put a fleece underneath and it works like a buffalo. I find that it feels like a jumper when you pull it on as it cuts out the wind. I have three now, probably about£40 each?
In reply to Birks:
Montane featherlite works for me - just gets shoved in my back pocket. A thin fleece gets tied around my waist if necessary. If it's really cold, an old thin woolen jumper gets added to the mix, or swap fleece and jumper over as the latter lets the breeze through when climbing and is then nice and toasty with the featherlite smock over the top.
Montane featherlite works for me - just gets shoved in my back pocket. A thin fleece gets tied around my waist if necessary. If it's really cold, an old thin woolen jumper gets added to the mix, or swap fleece and jumper over as the latter lets the breeze through when climbing and is then nice and toasty with the featherlite smock over the top.
In reply to Birks:
Answering the question directly, another vote here for Patagonia Nano-Puff. Except mine is circa 2000 - 2005, so isn't stitched through material and has only a half zip. Therefore warmer and lighter than the current offering, I suspect. The only change I'd want is to add a hood; someone will make one in that style now I guess.
As a clip-on layer, like others I use a wind-shirt. Earlier this year I got a Black Diamond Alpine Start hoody and am very happy with it. Schoeller material is I think tougher than Pertex. It suited this summer's trip on multi-pitch rock in the Queyras )
Answering the question directly, another vote here for Patagonia Nano-Puff. Except mine is circa 2000 - 2005, so isn't stitched through material and has only a half zip. Therefore warmer and lighter than the current offering, I suspect. The only change I'd want is to add a hood; someone will make one in that style now I guess.
As a clip-on layer, like others I use a wind-shirt. Earlier this year I got a Black Diamond Alpine Start hoody and am very happy with it. Schoeller material is I think tougher than Pertex. It suited this summer's trip on multi-pitch rock in the Queyras )
In reply to fairweatherclimber:
The nano-puff has always been stitch through, the non-stitch through design was the micro-puff (I have one). They do do a nano-puff with a hood, and half zip:
http://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-nano-puff-bivy-pullover/84186.html
As to a windproof, the arcteryx squamish is hard to beat imho, expensive but often in the sale, lovely material, mine gets worn a lot, from climbing to running to ski touring.
The nano-puff has always been stitch through, the non-stitch through design was the micro-puff (I have one). They do do a nano-puff with a hood, and half zip:
http://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-nano-puff-bivy-pullover/84186.html
As to a windproof, the arcteryx squamish is hard to beat imho, expensive but often in the sale, lovely material, mine gets worn a lot, from climbing to running to ski touring.
In reply to HeMa:
It's interesting that you recommend wearing a long sleeved merino top... I already do I suppose one key piece of information that I didn't give in my first post is that I moved to the UK from Australia a couple of years ago. Having grown up in temperatures quite a bit higher than what occur in the UK I tend to run quite cold compared to most. I've worn a merino base-layer pretty consistently throughout the last two UK summers being quite comfortable when most of my friends are sweltering. Knowing that I run cold is one of the reasons I'm hesitant about getting a super breathable jacket like the Nano-Air. In saying that though, there have been a few times I've over-heated a bit in the Quantum+Boreas or Generator+Boreas combination.
As for your suggestion of the Inov8 Thermoshell, it looks like a great top but I'm afraid not having a hood is a bit of a deal-breaker for me. Surely someone makes a reversible jacket with a hood? I'm sure I've seen one recently...
It's interesting that you recommend wearing a long sleeved merino top... I already do I suppose one key piece of information that I didn't give in my first post is that I moved to the UK from Australia a couple of years ago. Having grown up in temperatures quite a bit higher than what occur in the UK I tend to run quite cold compared to most. I've worn a merino base-layer pretty consistently throughout the last two UK summers being quite comfortable when most of my friends are sweltering. Knowing that I run cold is one of the reasons I'm hesitant about getting a super breathable jacket like the Nano-Air. In saying that though, there have been a few times I've over-heated a bit in the Quantum+Boreas or Generator+Boreas combination.
As for your suggestion of the Inov8 Thermoshell, it looks like a great top but I'm afraid not having a hood is a bit of a deal-breaker for me. Surely someone makes a reversible jacket with a hood? I'm sure I've seen one recently...
In reply to angry pirate:
Thanks for the info RE the Ferrosi. From the sounds of it, it'll be too breathable for me and the UK weather. As for the generator, mine definitely doesn't have a biner clip. I purchased it back in 2011 so it could well be that they added that feature later. Or perhaps mine was faulty and I didn't even realise. At the time I didn't know much of anything regarding outdoor gear.
Thanks for the info RE the Ferrosi. From the sounds of it, it'll be too breathable for me and the UK weather. As for the generator, mine definitely doesn't have a biner clip. I purchased it back in 2011 so it could well be that they added that feature later. Or perhaps mine was faulty and I didn't even realise. At the time I didn't know much of anything regarding outdoor gear.
In reply to LukeDclimber:
I'm sure berghaus do a reversible insulated jacket with a hood. Might be worth a look. Sorry don't have time to look at them moment but think it's their "hyperlite" range.
I'm sure berghaus do a reversible insulated jacket with a hood. Might be worth a look. Sorry don't have time to look at them moment but think it's their "hyperlite" range.
In reply to alimckay:
It's the hypertherm hoody I mentioned earlier. It is a thing of beauty as lightweight insulation but the material is very thin so I suspect wouldn't survive rock contact too well. The fit isn't great for climbing either: mine rides a little when arms are raised, though it's not really designed for that.
It's the hypertherm hoody I mentioned earlier. It is a thing of beauty as lightweight insulation but the material is very thin so I suspect wouldn't survive rock contact too well. The fit isn't great for climbing either: mine rides a little when arms are raised, though it's not really designed for that.
In reply to angry pirate:
Actually it seems Berghaus might do 2 reversible jackets. The Hypertherm (which I couldn't find on the Berghaus website but is available on ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk) and the Extrem Reversa which seems new http://www.berghaus.com/mens-reversa-jacket/421929.html
Actually it seems Berghaus might do 2 reversible jackets. The Hypertherm (which I couldn't find on the Berghaus website but is available on ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk) and the Extrem Reversa which seems new http://www.berghaus.com/mens-reversa-jacket/421929.html
Post edited at 12:26
1
In reply to LukeDclimber:
My suggestion was actually about ditching unnecessary layers, as I'm sure you have something under the Quantum hoodie, I know I do when I wear mine.
As for the hood, well to be honest I don't find a layer hood that useful, for starters they fit like sh*te over a helmet and fiddling one under a lid is major PITA. For a throw over everything belay jacket or windbreaker a hood is really needed. But you already have said windbreaker ('Ryx Alpha SL), so you're sorted there.
> It's interesting that you recommend wearing a long sleeved merino top... I already do
My suggestion was actually about ditching unnecessary layers, as I'm sure you have something under the Quantum hoodie, I know I do when I wear mine.
As for the hood, well to be honest I don't find a layer hood that useful, for starters they fit like sh*te over a helmet and fiddling one under a lid is major PITA. For a throw over everything belay jacket or windbreaker a hood is really needed. But you already have said windbreaker ('Ryx Alpha SL), so you're sorted there.
In reply to LukeDclimber:
Aye, that looks nice. It looks like the hypertherm may have been discontinued or at least withdrawn until they roll out next year's colours.
I'd be interested in seeing the reversa in the flesh as with decent sleeve length it could be a decent winter climbing layer. The reversible idea really works with the hypertherm and I find myself using it rather than it just being a gimmick.
Aye, that looks nice. It looks like the hypertherm may have been discontinued or at least withdrawn until they roll out next year's colours.
I'd be interested in seeing the reversa in the flesh as with decent sleeve length it could be a decent winter climbing layer. The reversible idea really works with the hypertherm and I find myself using it rather than it just being a gimmick.
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