UKC

Have asked very generally in the past but have now narrowed the options down so...

I am thinking that soon I may have to stop my current blissful existence vanning around font and bouldering every day and head somewhere for winter and a part time job.

I just can't decide which way to start driving!

I would like spend the winter splitboard mountaineering whilst improving my winter climbing (currently around Scottish III/IV) and maybe learning some alpine skills. Being close to an indoor wall would be nice to keep the fingers in shape on down days.

I'll at least initially be living in my van so somewhere van friendly a big advantage.
I'm also travelling alone so somewhere with a good chance of finding partners is important.

While the obvious recommendation would be Cham, and if driving that way I would definitely check it out, I've been told by people who know me well it wouldn't be my cup of tea - too crazy and busy. Also my French is rubbish. I do however speak good Spanish and could probably pick up Italian quite quickly.

After winter I will be staying in the same place if I like it and it has good rock routes (which all my options do. Although my trad rack is crying out dolomites to me!) Or moving on to somewhere else with good rock.

So am considering the Italian alps, the dolomites/tyrol, or the spanish or Andorran Pyrenees.
All sound good but I'm literally going to have to flip a coin right now.

Can anyone push me one way or t'other?

In reply to Kahti:

Really? No one? Should've put brexit in the title somewhere...

In reply to Kahti:

Well I'd have thought that if winterwinter is what you are after it is a bit of a no-brainer? Italy tends to get a bit more 'winter' than Spain - though the northern ranges might attract.

In reply to Kahti:

Can't tell you much about spain. But I can tell you most of what you might need to know about the Dolomites as I have a house there. Dolomites is pretty awesome but the housing is expensive in resort. There aren't many indoor walls around there - theres one in Selva and one in the north in the Sexten, Dobbiaco I think. Rock climbing theres more than you can shake a stick at, sport, trad, alpine, big-wall, whatever really. Lots of ice climbing - just search it here. Loads of ski mountaineering although it's hard to come by info here. Trust me though, it's all there. Winter mountaineering can be a little tricky as it stays very cold and so the snow doesn't trsnform until th spring. However in spring you can choose alipne mixed routes for sure. And on a warm day you can climb a south facing wall like civazes in February. The south is definitely cheaper than the north - I'm partly based near Marmolada and you can get pretty cheap accomodation there.

In reply to beardy mike:

Thanks for the info! Sounds like it may be worth spending a few months around the val d'aosta/southern end of the alps then heading east in spring if I go that way? It seems somewhat silly having never been to the alps before to drive past them and head straight for the dolomites anyway...

Regarding spain, yes it probably doesn't get as winterised as Italy, but as long as there is good snow I'm fine. Mountaineering and ice climbing come second in my winter priorities to backcountry snowboarding. I actually kind of like the idea of being able to drive down the valley a bit to thaw out if life in the mountains gets too cold!

On paper Italy does seem to tick more boxes but something is still appealing about Spain. More opinions gladly welcomed!

In reply to Kahti:

You know the Dolomites is part of the alps don't you too many people think that the alps are the french alps. Italy has the longest alpine border of all the alpine nations and being based on that side means you can easy access most of it within a 6 hour drive. Dont fall for the Chamonix hype. Yes its amazing and access is superb, but theres so much alpine terrain which is ignored by brits...

In reply to beardy mike:

Haha yeah just struggling for specific name for that mont blanc/Aosta part of the alps!
Would you reccomend the dolomites over it's more western neighbours and why?

Also do you know the best option for driving into Italy avoiding vignettes and tunnel tolls as much as possible?

Thanks

In reply to Kahti:

Well there are ups and downs to it.

climbing community - in Cham etc you will find a ready and waiting climbing community. It's easy to find partners. The eastern alps and Dolomites, it will take time to find people if you are on your own. Skiing not so much it's much easier than climbing. But you could for example join the CAI who organise regular meets. There are various forum users - Erstwhile, Kean, myself, James Rushforth for example who are either based out there or spend a lot of time in the mountains. Or go into the guides office where you are and ask them how to find partners - there are always propective guides coming up through the ranks who are looking for fit keen partners.

Altitude - as the altitude is lower, it's dead easy to rock u and pull on. None of the acclimatisation nonsense you get over in the west unless of course you are heading to for example the Ortler, Oztal, or other higher regions over there.

Variety - so Cham is all perfect granite. I hear you say that's not a bad thing and it isn't, but cham tends to be this microcosm which you can't escape. I have a number of friends who live there and they say this. Out east you have to work a little harder but the reward is that you can get to Granite, Porphry, Dolomite and Limestone pretty easily. For example if you were based somewhere around Trento, you can hit the Lagorai for Granite, Main dolomites for limestone and Dolomite, Brenta Dolomites, the Adamello (Presenella), Ortler and Stelvio, or Tirol within an hour and halfs drive.

Life costs - Italy is not much cheaper than the UK really - about the same.

Damn good food - eating out is cheap - a pizza will cost maybe 9 euro max and start at 6.50. Same for pasta.

Flights to Italy are cheap - so if you need to pop back it's no biggy.

Ski passes are MUCH cheaper than France.

There are less people winter climbing there so you won't need to queue apart from maybe the Serrai di Sottoguda on a weekend.

Drive south to the motorway and you can get to Cham easily. Or Mello, or Julian Alps, or Croatia for sun rock, or go north through Austria to get to things like the Dachstein, or Switzerland pretty easily. Seriously - there's so much out there. Yes its an advantage that Cham has easy access cable cars and loads to go at, but then that means there's loads of people who have though of the same thing...

As for driving, easiest cheap way is drive from calais into Belgium, down to Namur, across the Pfalz to Karlsruhe, across to Ulm, down to Kempten, then through Austria. Avoid the motorways in austria and go over the brenner. The Brenner motorway is woth the 9 bucks as it saves loads of time. Then on the other side the toll will cost you 4 bucks...

In reply to beardy mike:

Amazing thank you for such an in depth reply!

Sounds like the Dolomites are the place for me if I do head that way.

Anyone have an argument for the Pyrenees instead?

In reply to Kahti:

Wow. I mean ciao. Non, super, genial.

In reply to Kahti: Look, at the end of the day I can't say anything for sure, but I first went (properly, not including when I went when I was 2) when I was 20. Since then I've been so many times I've lost count now and it got to the point where I just want to share my passion for the place with others, so I started an accomodation business in a very quiet valley with excellent ice climbing to promote the place. If you even end up feeling half as addicted as I do, you'll love it. Its an area which keeps giving and I keep finding new places to explore, new missions to add to the list. So go. If it doesn't suit you, you are you g free and unencumbered. You cam always move to Cham, or anywhere inbetween. But I'm pretty sure you won't be disappointed.

In reply to beardy mike:

OK I think I'm sold! Sorry Pyrenees. The variety and just the shear rugged awesomeness of the dolomites looks amazing and the more I read and look at the more I like!

I think I'll take a few days to drive down, then go on a bit of a tour for a week or so and try and decide where I want to base myself. Then maybe look for an intensive Italian course! Any recommendations for must visit places? I was thinking of starting from ortisei and driving the circuit clockwise around piz boe then going down to the fassas. Should I also check out cortina or better to stay west? I think i'm already going to have a lot of amazing places to visit...

In reply to Kahti:

It's all good. For shear lunacy, you need to go to Val Corpassa and Valle San Lucano.

Thats a view from high above val corpassa:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153366921647592&set=a.1015032...

This is in San Lucano:
http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000NNlKQkUbVA0/s/860/860/v94-48-2.j...

It's Monte Agner which is basically an el cap with a half dome stacked on top of each other. The other side of the valley is much less impressive. It's only the size of el cap. Seriously - the northern end is beautiful - it has meadows and cool mountains. The south has crazy wild mountains with 1000m high cliffs - Civetta, Marmolada, Moiazza, Pala di San Martino, Pala di San Lucano, Monte Agner - and Lynx, Bears and Wolves.