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...or is it really slippy on anything slightly damp, especially rock? Not talking about their rock shoes just walking boots and approach/walking shoes.
I'd be really hesitant to do anything exposed and even slightly wet in them.
I'd be really hesitant to do anything exposed and even slightly wet in them.
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
No, it isn't just you.
According to the book "Invisible on Everest" vibram was hugely inferior to nailed boots for actual climbing. It apparently won out largely because the lack of metal nails conducting heat away from the feet made vibram boots warmer and less likely to cause frostbite.
No, it isn't just you.
According to the book "Invisible on Everest" vibram was hugely inferior to nailed boots for actual climbing. It apparently won out largely because the lack of metal nails conducting heat away from the feet made vibram boots warmer and less likely to cause frostbite.
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
Agree. I thought skywalker were better but hardly anyone specs them now. Salomon Contragrip are far worse though.
Agree. I thought skywalker were better but hardly anyone specs them now. Salomon Contragrip are far worse though.
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
They certainly can be slippy in the wet - always have been.
The best soles ever made for mountain boots we're Galibier. You can still get Galibier boots - well the wonderful Super Guides at any rate, but they might be considered an aquired taste by today's lightweight modern standards
> ...or is it really slippy on anything slightly damp, especially rock? Not talking about their rock shoes just walking boots and approach/walking shoes.
> I'd be really hesitant to do anything exposed and even slightly wet in them.
They certainly can be slippy in the wet - always have been.
The best soles ever made for mountain boots we're Galibier. You can still get Galibier boots - well the wonderful Super Guides at any rate, but they might be considered an aquired taste by today's lightweight modern standards
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
It depends on the sole pattern. I've found chunky square edged vibram soles to be OK even in the wet. The shallower or sloping edge type are lethal.
It depends on the sole pattern. I've found chunky square edged vibram soles to be OK even in the wet. The shallower or sloping edge type are lethal.
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In reply to davidbeynon:
Which was precisely why Vitale Bramani invented it in the first place: to reduce the incidence of footwear-induced frostbite cf nailed leather soles. However, it would indeed be perverse to try to argue that vulcanised rubber lugs (not smooth, sticky rubber - we're not comparing with rock shoes) give better grip on rock than nails.
> According to the book "Invisible on Everest" vibram was hugely inferior to nailed boots for actual climbing. It apparently won out largely because the lack of metal nails conducting heat away from the feet made vibram boots warmer and less likely to cause frostbite.
Which was precisely why Vitale Bramani invented it in the first place: to reduce the incidence of footwear-induced frostbite cf nailed leather soles. However, it would indeed be perverse to try to argue that vulcanised rubber lugs (not smooth, sticky rubber - we're not comparing with rock shoes) give better grip on rock than nails.
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
There are dozens of Vibram compounds, and dozens of sole patterns. Google it...
People want soles that will last a long time, so manufacturers spec harder, longer-wearing, but less grippy compounds.
You choose, you lose...
There are dozens of Vibram compounds, and dozens of sole patterns. Google it...
People want soles that will last a long time, so manufacturers spec harder, longer-wearing, but less grippy compounds.
You choose, you lose...
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In reply to captain paranoia:
I thought manufacturers specced soles with minimal tread and that wear out in 6 months these days?
> People want soles that will last a long time, so manufacturers spec harder, longer-wearing, but less grippy compounds.
I thought manufacturers specced soles with minimal tread and that wear out in 6 months these days?
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In reply to captain paranoia:
I agree with this and it makes choosing the right sole quite difficult.
I used to have a pair of Scarpa approach shoes (crux iirc) which had a mega grippy sole but wore out in a month of schlepping to the pub / casual use. I've now got some salewa approach shoes designed for serious mountain use but the vibram sole is very hard and slippy. I had a genuinely terrifying experience scrambling over Tryfan in them on early morning dew-covered rock. They have seen a good year of use now for a combo of hill/casual and are still going strong.
Conversely my old, old scarpa SL boots had the Attak sole by Skywalk which used to slide on wet rock whereas my current SLs have a really good vibram sole which sticks really well, though does wear accordingly.
My work shoes are vibram soled and a review complained that the sole wore quickly. Well, it does but they are reassuringly grippy on wet floors.
I agree with this and it makes choosing the right sole quite difficult.
I used to have a pair of Scarpa approach shoes (crux iirc) which had a mega grippy sole but wore out in a month of schlepping to the pub / casual use. I've now got some salewa approach shoes designed for serious mountain use but the vibram sole is very hard and slippy. I had a genuinely terrifying experience scrambling over Tryfan in them on early morning dew-covered rock. They have seen a good year of use now for a combo of hill/casual and are still going strong.
Conversely my old, old scarpa SL boots had the Attak sole by Skywalk which used to slide on wet rock whereas my current SLs have a really good vibram sole which sticks really well, though does wear accordingly.
My work shoes are vibram soled and a review complained that the sole wore quickly. Well, it does but they are reassuringly grippy on wet floors.
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
I agree with Captain Paranoia, not all vibram soles are the same . Cheaper ones are really bad on wet rock and grass or steep ground. Expensive ones have a high rubber content and are great on wet rock , ice and snow etc , though this makes them softer and quicker to wear out.
Vibram seems to be a name that makes people think they will be good on all surfaces all the time , without thinking what they are spending .
A pair of shoes for rambling or low level walking will last longer with a harder wearing sole with more plastic compounds .
I agree with Captain Paranoia, not all vibram soles are the same . Cheaper ones are really bad on wet rock and grass or steep ground. Expensive ones have a high rubber content and are great on wet rock , ice and snow etc , though this makes them softer and quicker to wear out.
Vibram seems to be a name that makes people think they will be good on all surfaces all the time , without thinking what they are spending .
A pair of shoes for rambling or low level walking will last longer with a harder wearing sole with more plastic compounds .
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
It's all in the compound the manufacturer pays for. I have two pairs of approach shoes. 1, made by Salewa, which is just rubbish in every way and has a Vibram sole. 2, made by AKU, which sticks like poo to a shoe on any surface (grass, rock - wet or otherwise), and the sole is wearing incredibly slowly... which is a Vibram Megagrip.
Now if they could put that Megagrip compound on a boot, life would be good. But when I last looked there weren't any.
It's all in the compound the manufacturer pays for. I have two pairs of approach shoes. 1, made by Salewa, which is just rubbish in every way and has a Vibram sole. 2, made by AKU, which sticks like poo to a shoe on any surface (grass, rock - wet or otherwise), and the sole is wearing incredibly slowly... which is a Vibram Megagrip.
Now if they could put that Megagrip compound on a boot, life would be good. But when I last looked there weren't any.
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In reply to Martin W:
There are still a couple of manufacturers of nailed work boots around. I have been tempted to see if I could get a pair made up with a suitable nailing pattern on a couple of occasions but can't justify the expense.
This is the sort of thing I was looking at as a starting point:
http://workboot.com/collections/logger/products/viberg-105t
There are still a couple of manufacturers of nailed work boots around. I have been tempted to see if I could get a pair made up with a suitable nailing pattern on a couple of occasions but can't justify the expense.
This is the sort of thing I was looking at as a starting point:
http://workboot.com/collections/logger/products/viberg-105t
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
I once threw an almost new pair of raichle mountaineering boots in a skip in Zermatt after a week of alpine climbing in what felt like roller skates.
Use meindle boots most of the time now and find them very grippy.
I once threw an almost new pair of raichle mountaineering boots in a skip in Zermatt after a week of alpine climbing in what felt like roller skates.
Use meindle boots most of the time now and find them very grippy.
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
Yep.... Ice climbing boots, totally crap on ice as the rubber is so hard, which I accept it needs to be. The soles of my 'old' ice boots looked practically new, but then 90% of the wear time was in crampons, the other 10 was in the boot of the car or snowy walk ins.
The stuff is still lethal on icy roads though!
I did wonder why no one has thought about molding some kind of grit, or composite of rubbers into the soles of mountain boots for winter use.
Yep.... Ice climbing boots, totally crap on ice as the rubber is so hard, which I accept it needs to be. The soles of my 'old' ice boots looked practically new, but then 90% of the wear time was in crampons, the other 10 was in the boot of the car or snowy walk ins.
The stuff is still lethal on icy roads though!
I did wonder why no one has thought about molding some kind of grit, or composite of rubbers into the soles of mountain boots for winter use.
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
Thanks folks. Seems not all vibram is slippy but if you aren't careful researching the compound you may end up doing your Torvill and Dean impression.
Thanks folks. Seems not all vibram is slippy but if you aren't careful researching the compound you may end up doing your Torvill and Dean impression.
In reply to Goucho:
I think I found a modern version too...
http://www.chaussure-paraboot.com/fr/montagne/142-chaussure-de-montagne-cui...
I think I found a modern version too...
http://www.chaussure-paraboot.com/fr/montagne/142-chaussure-de-montagne-cui...
In reply to angry pirate:
I have some salewa approach shoes too, they are positively dangerous on smooth wet rock to the point that daren't use them for anything other than walking the dog,no one seems to match five ten for rubber that works.
I have some salewa approach shoes too, they are positively dangerous on smooth wet rock to the point that daren't use them for anything other than walking the dog,no one seems to match five ten for rubber that works.
Post edited at 09:36
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In reply to angry pirate:
The Skywalk Attak sole on the old SL was famously lethal on most surfaces. The various Vibram soles I have had on boots and shoes have been much better. The super aggressive sole on my 25 ish year old Scarpa M4 probably the best.
The Skywalk Attak sole on the old SL was famously lethal on most surfaces. The various Vibram soles I have had on boots and shoes have been much better. The super aggressive sole on my 25 ish year old Scarpa M4 probably the best.
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In reply to GarethSL:
Those look interesting.
The original Super Guides were absolutely bomb proof. I've still got a pair dating back to 76', and I reckon they'd still be more than up to a big alpine route.
> I think I found a modern version.
Those look interesting.
The original Super Guides were absolutely bomb proof. I've still got a pair dating back to 76', and I reckon they'd still be more than up to a big alpine route.
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In reply to Goucho:
They have many style, including the super guides and other modern looking versions. I'm tempted by the forestry boots for fieldwork now. Prices are not too extreme either.
http://www.chaussure-paraboot.com/fr/recherche?orderby=position&orderway=de...
Very interesting site if you mooch around!
They have many style, including the super guides and other modern looking versions. I'm tempted by the forestry boots for fieldwork now. Prices are not too extreme either.
http://www.chaussure-paraboot.com/fr/recherche?orderby=position&orderway=de...
Very interesting site if you mooch around!
Post edited at 10:26
In reply to angry pirate:
It always amuses me that people are carefully avoid wearing their expensive climbing shoes but then wear their expensive approach shoes out going to the pub... I don't expect my approach shoes to last significantly longer than a pair of climbing shoes (in terms of actual use); I only wear them when I might actually went to spend rubber on grip - scrambling, long easy routes or indeed approaching crags where there is rocky scrambling to get there (often not the case e.g. you don't need technical shoes to approach Stanage). Otherwise it's cheap Decathlon walking shoes for me
> I used to have a pair of Scarpa approach shoes (crux iirc) which had a mega grippy sole but wore out in a month of schlepping to the pub / casual use.
It always amuses me that people are carefully avoid wearing their expensive climbing shoes but then wear their expensive approach shoes out going to the pub... I don't expect my approach shoes to last significantly longer than a pair of climbing shoes (in terms of actual use); I only wear them when I might actually went to spend rubber on grip - scrambling, long easy routes or indeed approaching crags where there is rocky scrambling to get there (often not the case e.g. you don't need technical shoes to approach Stanage). Otherwise it's cheap Decathlon walking shoes for me
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
The 'hexagon' patterned sole on the mammut lightweight boots I had was phenomenal on wet rock but only seems to be available on approach shoes and lightweight boots that don't last . The commando sole on British army boots is actually really good.
The 'hexagon' patterned sole on the mammut lightweight boots I had was phenomenal on wet rock but only seems to be available on approach shoes and lightweight boots that don't last . The commando sole on British army boots is actually really good.
In reply to andrewmcleod:
Ha ha. It was a lesson learned! I tend to expect approach shoes to be glorified pub shoes which I can wear around town along with my enormous down jacket to advertise to everyone that I'm a climber
My experience of most is that the manufacturer expects that too. That's why the Scarpas were such a revelation. Proper sticky rubber which I wasted on tarmac.
Ha ha. It was a lesson learned! I tend to expect approach shoes to be glorified pub shoes which I can wear around town along with my enormous down jacket to advertise to everyone that I'm a climber
My experience of most is that the manufacturer expects that too. That's why the Scarpas were such a revelation. Proper sticky rubber which I wasted on tarmac.
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
I have a pair of TNF approach shoes which have Vibram soles (no idea what compound was used)and are very poor in terms of slip resistance. I had a pair of Merrels which lasted for 10 years and were great, but this latest pair is terrible by comparison.
I have a pair of TNF approach shoes which have Vibram soles (no idea what compound was used)and are very poor in terms of slip resistance. I had a pair of Merrels which lasted for 10 years and were great, but this latest pair is terrible by comparison.
In reply to captain paranoia:
Maybe we need someone to invent a boot with just a fixing plate, which you interchange the rubber compound (like F1) to suit the conditions ( and maybe we could keep a couple of spare soles in the rucksack for the changing conditions
> There are dozens of Vibram compounds, and dozens of sole patterns. Google it...
> People want soles that will last a long time, so manufacturers spec harder, longer-wearing, but less grippy compounds.
> You choose, you lose...
> People want soles that will last a long time, so manufacturers spec harder, longer-wearing, but less grippy compounds.
> You choose, you lose...
Maybe we need someone to invent a boot with just a fixing plate, which you interchange the rubber compound (like F1) to suit the conditions ( and maybe we could keep a couple of spare soles in the rucksack for the changing conditions
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
My comment was a bit throwaway...
The problem is that you're unlikely to find out which compound a manufacturer has chosen for their shoes (sole units are commonly mentioned). And then you have to go and find out the properties of the compound. And whether it's a Vibram Europe compound, or a Vibram China compound (I downloaded PDF catalogues in 2008... Euro compounds were Mont, Tront, Anticalore, Trek, Euro & SP. The Chinese catalogue added TC1, TC4, Duraflex, Walk & Newflex)
> Seems not all vibram is slippy but if you aren't careful researching the compound you may end up doing your Torvill and Dean impression.
My comment was a bit throwaway...
The problem is that you're unlikely to find out which compound a manufacturer has chosen for their shoes (sole units are commonly mentioned). And then you have to go and find out the properties of the compound. And whether it's a Vibram Europe compound, or a Vibram China compound (I downloaded PDF catalogues in 2008... Euro compounds were Mont, Tront, Anticalore, Trek, Euro & SP. The Chinese catalogue added TC1, TC4, Duraflex, Walk & Newflex)
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
Most boots/shoes can be slippery straight out of the box - the moulds are coated with a release agent to stop the rubber sticking itself to the mould, but this should wear off pretty quickly.
Salomon used to be particularly bad for it - not sure about these days.
Another thing is that, over time, the rubber can dry out and harden, which reduces grip - extent of this depends on which compound it was and how they have been stored.
Most boots/shoes can be slippery straight out of the box - the moulds are coated with a release agent to stop the rubber sticking itself to the mould, but this should wear off pretty quickly.
Salomon used to be particularly bad for it - not sure about these days.
Another thing is that, over time, the rubber can dry out and harden, which reduces grip - extent of this depends on which compound it was and how they have been stored.
In reply to beth:
You could plump for the Merrell Moab FST Mids but as far as I can think of that's the most bootish thing with Vibram Megagrip soles.
You could plump for the Merrell Moab FST Mids but as far as I can think of that's the most bootish thing with Vibram Megagrip soles.
Post edited at 23:29
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
Sticky versus hardwearing is obviously a trade-off, the softer the rubber the better grip but the faster it will wear, other things being equal. It's possible to improve both qualities by increasing the carbon content but this adds cost. As mentioned before Vibram do a range of grippinesses, but Skyrunner, the compound they developed with the International Mountain Runners Federation (IIRC?) is probably their best for grip and toughness combined. I've got a pair of Anatom Skye Trail shoes with it and the grip has been excellent so far (a year's use).
Sticky versus hardwearing is obviously a trade-off, the softer the rubber the better grip but the faster it will wear, other things being equal. It's possible to improve both qualities by increasing the carbon content but this adds cost. As mentioned before Vibram do a range of grippinesses, but Skyrunner, the compound they developed with the International Mountain Runners Federation (IIRC?) is probably their best for grip and toughness combined. I've got a pair of Anatom Skye Trail shoes with it and the grip has been excellent so far (a year's use).
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