UKC

Why VS 5b

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 herman0055 31 Oct 2016
Why is a VS 5b with poor protection not HVS. One price of good gear near the bottom but poor after that for 5-10 meters. Strange grade when potential of rocky landing?
In reply to herman0055:

Example?
In reply to herman0055:

Misprint in the guide?

T.
 ianstevens 31 Oct 2016
In reply to herman0055:

5b move next to the gear and/or off the ground followed by a ladder?
1
 Ian Parsons 31 Oct 2016
In reply to herman0055:

Would suggest the hardest crux 5b move is well protected, but the rest of the route is easier but bold.

'Neat Arete' in Serengeti?
 d_b 01 Nov 2016
In reply to ianstevens:

The marmoset used to get diff 5a for that reason didn't it?
 GrahamD 01 Nov 2016
In reply to herman0055:

Its not about potential for a rocky landing. Its the probability of it happening to a VS leader. If its easy ground that a VS leader shouldn't fall off then its a fair enough grade.
1
 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 01 Nov 2016
In reply to herman0055:

HVDiff 5b?

Verandah Buttress (HVD 5b)

Chris
 Capricorn One 01 Nov 2016
In reply to herman0055:

> Why is a VS 5b with poor protection not HVS. One price of good gear near the bottom but poor after that for 5-10 meters. Strange grade when potential of rocky landing?

I always understood that it meant a VS route with a hard (for the grade) boulder problem start. I haven't come across many (Spider Crack at Burbage is the only one in my logbook), but Birchen Edge seems to have more than its fair share of odd grades because of the way the ground has eroded away beneath the face (Dead Eye HVS 6a?).
 GridNorth 01 Nov 2016
In reply to GrahamD:

Perhaps one of the more well known ones is The Direct Route on Dinas Mot. The last pitch is a boulder problem move off a wide ledge. The rest of the route is no more than 4c but that move does warrant 5b IMO so I agree with the overall grade of VS 5b

Al
 Chris the Tall 01 Nov 2016
In reply to Ron Rees Davies:

> Would suggest the hardest crux 5b move is well protected, but the rest of the route is easier but bold.

> 'Neat Arete' in Serengeti?

That was E1 6a when I did it !
 brianjcooper 01 Nov 2016
In reply to Chris Craggs:

Always good for a laugh.
 Max factor 01 Nov 2016
In reply to herman0055:

Ash tree eliminate VS 5b at burbage? Bouldering out the start of this going me back into doing 5b routes again and gave me the confidence to try HVS and E1 leads. Funny old head game trad.

Ash Tree Wall Eliminate (VS 5b)
 Fraser 01 Nov 2016
In reply to GrahamD:

> Its not about potential for a rocky landing. Its the probability of it happening to a VS leader.

I disagree. The grade noted is the grade of the route, not for whoever is leading or trying to lead it.
 Stuart S 01 Nov 2016
In reply to herman0055:
For the route you're talking about (Plod's Playpiece - just moderated it for you), is it not a case of a 5b boulder problem off the deck into poorly protected VS 4a/VS 4b climbing? Although the overall grade of VS 5b doesn't tell you this explicitly, poorly protected 4a/4b climbing is not normally HVS and the guide description does tell you the upper half of the route is poorly protected.
Post edited at 13:11
 knighty 01 Nov 2016
In reply to Max factor:

And then there's:

Ash Tree Variations (VS 5c)

Definitely VS, just a tough 3 moves at the start. Totally protected by a cam in a good pocket.
 krikoman 01 Nov 2016
In reply to herman0055:

Get thee to Birchen, and tha'll see why.
 GrahamD 01 Nov 2016
In reply to Fraser:

> I disagree. The grade noted is the grade of the route, not for whoever is leading or trying to lead it.

What I mean is that a VS leader should not have any reason to fall off a run out on a (correctly graded) VS 5b. VS 5b does not mean there can't be a run out.
 Goucho 01 Nov 2016
In reply to herman0055:
> Why is a VS 5b with poor protection not HVS. One price of good gear near the bottom but poor after that for 5-10 meters. Strange grade when potential of rocky landing?

If we're going to apply this logic, then Cenotaph Corner is HVS 5c, as 90% of the climbing is about VS, and you can get a bomb proof runner in every foot of it.
Post edited at 13:55
 Lord_ash2000 01 Nov 2016
In reply to Goucho:
You do occasionally get strange grades on routes. An even more extreme example would be Cyclops (f6A+) at Hutton roof.

It gets this grade because in new money it's a boulder problem with a highball top out. But it was done a long time back when all grades were trad.

So you've got to deal with a very difficult but pretty much perfectly safe (because you're 2ft off the deck) set of moves before getting into easier stuff above. I can't remember if there is gear above (I solo'd it) but regardless if you manage the first half the 2nd half is pretty much unfalloffable and so isn't going to add anything to the HVS grade no matter how run out it is. Just like climbing your staires at home, if you fell off backwards it would hurt but its so easy you know that's never going to happen so you deem it safe. Same applies here only the intro moves weed out anyone who might have a chance of failing on the upper moves.
Post edited at 13:59
 pebbles 01 Nov 2016
In reply to Stuart S:
>poorly protected 4a/4b climbing is not normally HVS


Sunset Slab (HVS 4b)

also http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=44484
Post edited at 14:05
 Goucho 01 Nov 2016
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> You do get occasionally get strange grades on routes. An even more extreme example would be Cyclops (f6A+) at Hutton roof, its HVS 6a.

> It gets this grade because in new money it's a boulder problem with a highball top out. But it was done a long time back when all grades were trad.

> So you've got to deal with a very difficult but pretty much perfectly safe (because you're 2ft off the deck) set of moves before getting into easier stuff above. I can't remember if there is gear above (I solo'd it) but regardless if you manage the first half the 2nd half is pretty much unfalloffable and so isn't going to add anything to the HVS grade no matter how bold it is.

I can understand it if it's one or two tricky moves at the start - Veranda Buttress is a classic anomaly - but if the move is on the route proper, then the overall grade should reflect this.

There are hundreds, probably thousands, of routes which are complete inconsistent regarding overall difficulty, but the vast majority are still graded for the hardest bit.

I've lost count if the number of well protected HVS's which are basically VS with a couple of 5a moves, yet get a grade of HVS.

Also, how many average VS leaders can make 5b moves on the sharp end, irrespective of of the gear?

 Stuart S 01 Nov 2016
In reply to pebbles:

Key word in my post is "normally". Sunset Slab was the obvious exception.
 pebbles 01 Nov 2016
In reply to Stuart S:

thats why I gave a second example
1
 Michael Gordon 01 Nov 2016
In reply to Goucho:

> 90% of the climbing is about VS (Cenotaph)

Surely not? Otherwise I'm going to be very disappointed when I eventually get round to it!
 Michael Gordon 01 Nov 2016
In reply to Goucho:

> I can understand it if it's one or two tricky moves at the start - Veranda Buttress is a classic anomaly - but if the move is on the route proper, then the overall grade should reflect this.

> How many average VS leaders can make 5b moves on the sharp end, irrespective of of the gear?

Agreed, VS 5b should usually be for boulder problem starts. That said, there's one in the Cairngorms (pitch 2 of Good Intentions), but I'm reliably informed (by a VS leader) the grade is fair.
 Trangia 01 Nov 2016
In reply to herman0055:

First Pinnacle Rib Yellow Slab pitch Diff (4b)
 Ratfeeder 01 Nov 2016
In reply to Michael Gordon:
> Surely not? Otherwise I'm going to be very disappointed when I eventually get round to it! (Cenotaph 90% VS)

Unfortunately yes. There's a 5a move at about 20 ft., a 5b move getting into the niche at 100 ft. and a 5c move getting out of it. The VS climbing between is very sustained though and doesn't diminish the quality of the climb. I doubt you'll be disappointed.
Post edited at 17:16
 Mike-W-99 01 Nov 2016
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> Agreed, VS 5b should usually be for boulder problem starts. That said, there's one in the Cairngorms (pitch 2 of Good Intentions), but I'm reliably informed (by a VS leader) the grade is fair.
(pitch 3 although I combined them) A couple of 5b moves but on bomber overhead gear thats placed from relatively straightforward positions. The 4c section to get there felt sketchier.

OP herman0055 04 Nov 2016
In reply to ianstevens:

Gear is poo above with ground fall potential
OP herman0055 04 Nov 2016
In reply to GrahamD:

5b for a vs leader is top end due to not many of them being around. So they could be pushing their grade with ground fall potential
OP herman0055 04 Nov 2016
In reply to Chris Craggs:

I take move is off the floor with no fall potential then? This has potential for serious injury not fatal
OP herman0055 04 Nov 2016
In reply to Stuart S:

Agreed but the potential for ground fall remains as the poor pro above is in bottoming out zone easily. A vs 5 b move where there is more rope and pro in the system I would agree with but with one bit of pro followed by ground fall just feels more like HVS overal grade
OP herman0055 04 Nov 2016
In reply to krikoman:
Birches, ticked, landings far better than East Sea cliff coast of Scotland
OP herman0055 04 Nov 2016
In reply to GrahamD:

So what the issue of grading it HVS if it has ground fall potential especially as 5b generally is top end VS grade
OP herman0055 04 Nov 2016
In reply to Trangia:
That route you land on the big sandy flat ledge although this is a mountain route.
 Greasy Prusiks 04 Nov 2016
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

Isn't there a Johnny Dawes E1 7a somewhere?

Can't remember it's name to save my life.
In reply to herman0055:

Upanover at Stanage:

Upanover (VS 5b)

I expected it to be a breeze after the crux boulder problem start.
It was, but it was very poorly protected, IIRC, and I was moderately flustered when I topped out.
Such is life; grades are a guide, not a scientific absolute.
abseil 05 Nov 2016
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> Surely not? Otherwise I'm going to be very disappointed when I eventually get round to it!

Yes, don't be disappointed! - so many of the moves are really straightforward. But I thought the climb was great, with it's superb positions (and historical interest).
 Offwidth 05 Nov 2016
In reply to herman0055:
For what it's worth as someone who has worked hard to encourage sensible grading that helps sustain our wonderful dual grade system for traditional climbing I found most of the old exceptions wrongly graded. Partly as a result most have gone from the Peak definitive BMC guides, sub E1 (the odd exceptions are climbing jokes like Veranadah Buttress which in reality is S 4c if you can see the easy sequence where many experienced climbers have failed or more likely have climbed the old school HS 5b or powererd past the start on crimps as a VS 5c). Adjectival grades are for padless onsightability for a leader at that grade (sometimes with a ground up approach to allow for falling off boulder problem starts).

On some of the others above in modern definitives...Yellow slab these days is 'good severe' 4b. Ash Tree Variations is HVS 5c and the Ash Tree Eliminate HVS 5b (the UKC votes averages when compared to the average of a soft VS classic like Inverted V show how different people must be voting for different routes or some must be grading boulder stats assuming pads) . Marmoset is a no longer exceptional VS 4c.
Post edited at 11:42
 ianstevens 05 Nov 2016
In reply to herman0055:

> Gear is poo above with ground fall potential

But if the holds are massive and you've already done some 5b climbing, who cares that there is no gear?
In reply to Ratfeeder:

> Unfortunately yes. There's a 5a move at about 20 ft., a 5b move getting into the niche at 100 ft. and a 5c move getting out of it. The VS climbing between is very sustained though and doesn't diminish the quality of the climb. I doubt you'll be disappointed.

It's also sustained 5b to the top, after the crux move.
 Offwidth 05 Nov 2016
In reply to ianstevens:

The VS leader might...so it depends on how technical the bold bit is and with some accounting of the cummulative effect vs rests. Certainly nothing bold with a serious ground-fall in prospect should be harder than 4a.

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...